Chapter Tactics #139: The Biggest Winners and Losers in Chapter Approved 2019

Chapter Tactics is a 40k podcast which focuses on promoting better tactical play and situational awareness across all variations of the game. Today Peteypab, Val, and Peter check out the points differences in the 2019 Chapter Approved and talk about how each faction will be affected.

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About Petey Pab

Aspiring 40k analyst, tournament reporter and Ultramarines enthusiast, Petey Pab only seeks to gather more knowledge about the game of 40k and share it with as many people as he can in order to unite both hobbyists and gamers. We are, after all, two sides of the same coin.

18 Responses to “Chapter Tactics #139: The Biggest Winners and Losers in Chapter Approved 2019”

  1. Zweischneid December 3, 2019 1:58 am #

    Jumping straight over Chapter Approved?

    Would’ve loved to hear your opinion on GW’s rules for sealed/enclosed, non-ruined, non-see-through buildings.

    • rvd1ofakind December 3, 2019 2:50 am #

      It’s a rule for a specific terrain piece they sell. Not magic boxes.

      • Zweischneid December 3, 2019 3:00 am #

        The same is true for the rules for craters, ruins, etc…

      • Zweischneid December 3, 2019 3:03 am #

        The same is true for their rules for ruins.

        Perhaps FLG will continue to “appropriate” the rules for GW ruins for their magic boxes, instead of the rules for “sealed buildings”, but neither is inherently more or less specific to a GW product.

    • Shas’O December 4, 2019 4:47 am #

      Any chance this means the end of enclosed runs? Man are those not fun…

  2. Zweischneid December 3, 2019 3:04 am #

    I am not sure I would buy heavily into Space Wolves.

    By the preview, they’ll only get their PA treatment in March, so basically in time for the Spring FAQ which will probably be the point when Space Marines get corrected?

    Pretty sure Space Wolves gonna miss the “Space Marine era” for a second time in 8th.

  3. rvd1ofakind December 3, 2019 3:47 am #

    Codex Chaos Daemons had only 3 viable units for top table play(+ their support characters that are only taken because those units are good and detachment fillers like brims and nurglings) pretty much through the whole edition(with some small exceptions). Pinks, Letters, Bearers.

    With marines coming out, as per TJ Lanigan(#2 daemons player) and Jim Vesal(#1 daemons player)…

    Pinks do nothing to 2+ cover marines with 0 ap.

    Bloodletters(if they can actually deepstrike within 12″) die to auspex scan, charge in… kill something and then die to literally anything as they are T3 5++ and marines have S4 shock assault melee.

    Bearers get shredded like nobodies business due to new re-rolls and just centurions in general.

    Jim Vesal leaves chaos. TJ tries making it work. His strat is – kill everything that shreds bearers, deepstrike them. Ok so we at least have 1 viable unit for top table play in the entire codex. Better slap a +1 pts in CA. Thanks.

    Oh but we got pts drops every CA. Here’s how the number of viable units for top table play changed in these years:

    2017->2018CA->2019CA

    3 -> 3 -> 1(in a very specific list only)

    Yes, in my opinion none of the pts changes were impactful enough. I’ll adress some here:

    Flamers: still 9″ deepstrike 12″ range meaning they will only hit what your opponent allows you to hit and then die. Plus a bunch of 12″ away only deepstrike rules are popping up. If you start them on the board – no-los makes them easy pickings.

    Ex Flamers: short range, heavy weapon. Name a more iconic duo. These would’ve been great earlier in the edition but now with so many ways to kill characters… most likely not.

    Screamers: great against primaris, garbage against anything else. They can’t really snipe characters if your opponent is aware of them as they have to land at least 3 bases which not only is hard, it at WS 4+ doesn’t guarantee the kill at all.

    Plague Drones and Beasts of nurgle: gangbusters exists, plaguebearers are still better

    Any greater daemon: bad combat delivery, bad degrading, bad aura, bad damage even on full profile, bad durability. What’s good about them? I want to now. Maybe at 150 they’d see play? But a DP could still be better to actually get to combat and to throw psychic powers out.
    The only “ok” GD is the keeper as it doesn’t degrade as bad, it’s has the greatest mobility and pretty much the best damage. However the problem is this happens against most shooting lists:
    1. KoS go second. At least 2 die. KoS move up and don’t charge because the opponent doesn’t allow that. The other 2 die.
    2. KoS go first. They move up and don’t charge. 3-4 die to smites, rapidfire and assault in addition to the first turn shooting they receive if they go second.
    Without heavy terrain (and according to Paul Winters, that tournament had walls of a size he’s never sseen before) KoS is a bad list.

    Finally I leave what TJ said: a (chaos) list that goes forward is not competitive. Nick Nanavati agreed with him. What does 90% of chaos daemons want to do? You guessed it – go forward. In TJ’s opinion the only way to play a list with chaos deamons and consistently win is to go with points denial (see his new Magnus list on Art of War, it’s great)

    • Zweischneid December 3, 2019 4:08 am #

      Chaos Daemons absolutely murder GSC now, that Aberrants and Kelermorphs have been nerfed into oblivion. And Tau still have no answer for Plaquebearers.

      Benchmarking against Marines is a fool‘s errand. They are utterly broken and probably need a full reset.

      • rvd1ofakind December 3, 2019 4:14 am #

        I said top table competitive play. Good luck winning a major and facing 0 marines my dude.

        Also RIP gsc. They didn’t deserve that disaster.

        • Zweischneid December 3, 2019 4:19 am #

          Sure. You’ll face Marines. But all non-Marine factions face that dilemma.

          They just out-math everything. “Competitive” in 40K ceases to be a concept if the math discrepancy between factions overshadows any conceivable skill-differential.

          I think people still haven’t quite realized how bad the game has gotten in the last couple of weeks.

          Go back and look at the Top 10s of the ‘Ard Boyz tournaments or early days BAOs, LVOs, etc… No faction ever had that kind of domination. Not Leafblower, not Mat Ward Grey Knights, not TauDar, not Battle Company, not Screamerstar, nothing. While the rules may be more legible than 6th or 7th, from a pure balance/competitive perspective, 40K is at the absolute lowest point of at least the last 25 years.

          • rvd1ofakind December 3, 2019 4:30 am
            #

            Firstly, as an example Orks, Necrons and T’au barelly changed their lists and are doing just fine.

            Secondly, going to top tables you’ll face more marines than other factions. Since they “out-math” everything, you can’t afford to have useless units vs them. And it just so happens that the top 3 (and the only 3) competitive units are very bad in that match-up.

            So with the marine popularity in mind, especially on top tables, you have to think about how to deal with them. Rather than “oh, they’re too strong”. That won’t get you anywhere.

            I definitelly wouldn’t go as far as to say it’s worse than previous editions, but it’s definitelly a “return to form” for 40k… (in a bad way ofc)

  4. rvd1ofakind December 3, 2019 4:19 am #

    As a comparison to Chaos Daemons being a terrible codex, I also have orks. After CA I pretty much have no trash units other than Stompa. Like, wow, actual variety.

  5. Zweischneid December 3, 2019 9:17 am #

    Also surprised the Falcon thinks Tyranids are the worst-performing faction.

    Primary-Tyranid outperforms Primary-Ynnari by over 26% in win percentage according to his website (unless I am not reading it correctly).

    • Cizzler December 3, 2019 10:32 am #

      Mono Tyranids are at 30% WR. That’s one of the things he was talking about in the last few Stats Centers.

      In my opinion, Tyranids should be able to be a standalone army like T’au or Necrons. Of course, that’s wishful thinking talking about competitive circuits, but should still be a consideration, and should be pushed like Mono Space Marines got pushed.

      Many people think the same way, which seems to be why there is a heavier focus on Nids as a mono faction. Putting normal dudes and gun slingers in a bug like army just doesn’t feel the same 😛

      • Zweischneid December 3, 2019 11:15 am #

        Ynnari primary is also 30% win rate. Welcome to the club.

        And you cannot even field a Ynnari army to reflect the fluff at the moment !!!

        While the lore makes a big deal about Jain Zar & co. joining Yvraine, the rules explicitly don’t allow you to make them Ynnari.

        “Yvraine had expected such division, just as she had expected those who had chosen the path of Ynnead to come to her when she called. Jain Zar, Lelith Hesperax, a Troupe of Midnight Sorrow including their cursed bud deadly Solitaire (…)”

        To not have an illegal army, you actually have to ally them in and “pretend” they are Ynnari as they are in the lore to even play the game as described in the background.

        It’s pretty much the equivalent of Nids needing to ally in GSC just to get Genestealers, because Tyranids would be forbidden to take Genestealers in the rules despite all fluff.

        Talk about the game now “feeling right”.

  6. Brother Crimson December 3, 2019 12:25 pm #

    Hey Pablo, your episode in the last ~20 minutes is impossible to listen to. There is big blank and then everyone talks over each other at the same time and questions and answers are out of sync.

    Obviously a technical issue.

    Best

    • Petey Pab
      Petey Pab December 3, 2019 11:47 pm #

      Oh really? Thanks for the heads up. I’ll try to see what the issue is and if I can fix it.

  7. Mr. Spaceman December 3, 2019 1:57 pm #

    Hey when you guys do an episode that talks about each faction one at a time, time codes would be great.

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