Chapter Tactics #81: How to Win With Off-Meta Single Faction Lists in 40k Tournaments

Chapter Tactics is a 40k podcast which focuses on promoting better tactical play and situational awareness across all variations of the game. Today the crew got resident solo faction expert Reecius and Geoff to talk about what it takes to perform well with Non-Soup lists. 

Show Notes:

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About Petey Pab

Aspiring 40k analyst, tournament reporter and Ultramarines enthusiast, Petey Pab only seeks to gather more knowledge about the game of 40k and share it with as many people as he can in order to unite both hobbyists and gamers. We are, after all, two sides of the same coin.

79 Responses to “Chapter Tactics #81: How to Win With Off-Meta Single Faction Lists in 40k Tournaments”

  1. Zweischneid September 11, 2018 12:36 am #

    I don’t get this. I know Geoff addressed it, but I feel the title is still largely false advertising. If you tout “single-faction”, it’s odd to hear you talking about Custodes or Death Guard based lists that use three different books.

    Sure, they are unique, off-key or “non-netlists”, and there’s merit to that, no doubt. But if you say “single faction” on the tin, just having a slightly more unconventional soup doesn’t really qualify as “single faction” if “single faction” is your topic. It’s just your arbitrary judgement of “bad soup” lists you don’t like and “good soup” lists you magically classify as “single faction”-in-spirit because you think that sounds better.

    Somebody winning a tournament with a unique and quirky Slaaneesh Daemons and Emperor’s Children Warptalon and a nice converted Slaanesh Renegade Knight list or something would be very cool, definitively noteworthy on a podcast and deserving all “the positivity” they get. But it’s not single faction or single codex.

    • Reecius
      Reecius September 11, 2018 6:36 am #

      I think Geoff was interpreting it as more of “different lists” than literally mono-book armies. Sorry for the confusion.

    • Zweischneid September 11, 2018 11:30 am #

      Sure. I get that.

      But it’s odd. A few months ago everyone bandwaggoning on Guilliman and Stormravens/Razorbacks was “single faction”, but not necessarily different, unique or off-meta.

      I’d also like to add that there is literally NOTHING remotely more common, spammed and at fault for giving soup a bad name than the 200 points of CP guard. Even the Castellan/BA list isn’t all that great without that and a pure Knight + BA list (without Imperial Guard) is probably more “different” and counter-meta than any other imperial (or even Tyranid/Genstealer these days) army, custodes includes, with the horrifically ubiquitous Imperial Guard CP farm.

      • abusepuppy September 11, 2018 3:14 pm #

        Stormravens and Ghillieman was over a year ago. That was the very, very beginning of 8E.

        • Zweischneid September 11, 2018 9:09 pm #

          I know. Use 5th Edition Grey Knights instead, if you like. Or 3.5 Chaos. Or whatever.

          Just saying the idea of “single faction codex” and the idea of “unique, interesting, off-meta list” aren’t synonyms.

          The spammy “everyone plays it list” can well be a single faction one, if it happens to be where GW made the Snafu. The off-beat, “how the hell” list can well be a soup drawing from the maximum sources allowed (e.g. Don Hooson).

      • Zweischneid September 11, 2018 9:14 pm #

        And 99.9% of why soup is seem as problematic, at least on the Imperial side, at this particular moment in time, because full-Gary-Oldman-shouting-EVERYONE, really, everyone is doing it. The least creative and most bandwaggoning thing possible you can do in September 2018 in 40K, is literally the thing Goeff souped into his list: The Imperial Guard CP farm.

  2. Agent X September 11, 2018 5:07 am #

    Just started listening and heard talk about fighting with the WL first to activate his saga

    Dont try this at home kids

    The aura doesn’t activate until the end of the phase it was accomplished (lone wolf activation is similar and i did it mid phase a few times before catching my mistake).

    We wolves are still learning our new codex so keep an eye on things that seem off

    • Reecius
      Reecius September 11, 2018 6:13 am #

      My apologies if I got that one wrong.

  3. Ujayim September 11, 2018 5:39 am #

    I think the Allarus Terminator to Blightlord comparison is a little fast and loose.

    Mostly because Terminators and Bikes have a like, 4-6 point difference and are just, flatly, worse at everything?

    I respect the notion of taking whatever you want, but I think it’s a little disingenuous to use Allarus as an example without admitting they’re literally just worse than other options that cost the same amount. Lol

    pls dont bully, Reece

    • Reecius
      Reecius September 11, 2018 6:12 am #

      Bully? I do t think presenting a different perspective is exactly bullying, lol,but hey, see it how you like.

      • Ujayim September 11, 2018 6:19 am #

        Was a joke, my friend. “pls no bully”

        • Reecius
          Reecius September 11, 2018 6:33 am #

          Ah, lol, I missed the joke =P

          Getting old…haha

          • Anggul September 12, 2018 5:35 am
            #

            Gotta revise memes if you want to stay in the game Reece!

  4. Nightman September 11, 2018 5:50 am #

    There usually is some value in playing something people have not practiced against. For example the allarus termies can do pile-ins in another direction, or snipe characters.

    Perhaps it’s not enough but often when you play a weird list well you will do better than the value of said units until people get used to dealing with them.

    Lets hope power armor get some love in the next chapter approved 🙂

  5. Agent X September 11, 2018 6:25 am #

    Does GW want us to play mono or soup?

    If they want mono the CP mechanics are the easiest way to change our behavior

    Carrot
    Bonus CP if all detachments are the same codex

    Stick
    Reduced CP if you have other codex detachments

    • Kraig September 12, 2018 11:32 am #

      Would GW rather you buy one codex or several?

  6. Maraach September 11, 2018 6:35 am #

    So disappointed there was zero necron talk on here.

    • Ujayim September 11, 2018 6:41 am #

      Get back in the “not a real faction” hole with Grey Knights, filthy space robot.

      • NinetyNineNo September 11, 2018 2:25 pm #

        Hey now, Necrons might look silly and be kinda boring and redundant, but they’re more worthy of the moniker of “real faction” than the ten kerjillion Marine flavours.

    • abusepuppy September 11, 2018 6:49 am #

      Necrons, like Tau and Orks, have no other option but to play monofaction. Necron monofaction advice is just Necron advice.

      • maraach September 11, 2018 7:59 am #

        The title is win with off-meta single faction lists. If necrons don’t fit that bill then I don’t know what does. Mono faction advice is just mono faction advice so I don’t get the response about that making it just necron advice. If you are using more than 1 codex it is not a mono list. As much as people want it to be if you use guard or some other element from another book it is an allied force or soup.

        Tau and orks were at least mentioned. None of the vocal community plays Necrons. To me this is why necrons are suffering so bad. The players that play tested necron must have not actually used necrons as their main army.

        I have like 10k-15k of necrons, and own every model in multiples. I have been successful locally, but it is a real a struggle with most of the codex being over priced for a gimmick that does nothing for you vs good players.

        I’d give my left nut to play test Necrons for GW so people would actually field them. Hopefully Chapter approved at least gives them point drops.

        • Petey Pab
          Petey Pab September 11, 2018 11:25 am #

          Hello, as I stated in the podcast I am sorry we didn’t get to all of the factions. We simply didn’t have enough time. A lot of the general advice we gave can, and does apply to Necron lists. In our NOVA recap episode we even talked about a particular Necron list that performed well by going against the grain (a teensy bit).

          Blood Angels, GSC, Dark Angels, Harlequins, and other factions weren’t talked about either.

          • maraach September 11, 2018 1:00 pm
            #

            Don’t get me wrong I liked the episode. Just was expecting something different. Was less talk about actual mono faction lists and more about just non standard soup lists. So I was just disappointed that not much was discussed about armies that actually have to play with a single codex is all.

            I would love to hear an episode explaining why the bad armies are bad instead of why the good armies are good. So maybe all these bad armies can get some help.

            I have been doing really well locally with necrons with out taking tesseract vaults. Basically abusing sauthekh and telsa along with doomsday arks, destroyers and tomb blades. It is a struggle tho.

            Look forward to the next podcast, it is always entertaining.

          • Petey Pab
            Petey Pab September 11, 2018 2:21 pm
            #

            You have the right idea. I think Doomsday Arks are under used personally.

          • rvd1ofakind September 11, 2018 6:48 pm
            #

            They’re basically in every Necron list >_>
            How is that underused <_<

          • Petey Pab
            Petey Pab September 11, 2018 7:22 pm
            #

            Not even close man.

    • Brakhal September 11, 2018 12:15 pm #

      To be fair, there’s not much room for necrons advicing.

      “Take 3 tesseracts. And, uh… Something else, I guess. Whatever.”

      There it is, everything that can be said for necrons.

      • rvd1ofakind September 11, 2018 6:49 pm #

        No, 3 vaults is an awful list that hits a knight and flops. 2 vaults is the sweet spot.

        • Venkarel September 14, 2018 12:42 pm #

          Yep we came to that conclusion before ATC but there was no good way to build a 2 vault list in a team format.

  7. Commander Sune September 11, 2018 11:24 am #

    It seems to me that many competetive “mono” faction lists needs a Guard CP battery to work. How should some xenos armies compete when they don’t have access to these? Tyranids was mentioned, but nothing abou Necrons or Tau. Perhaps in a future episode?

    Wouldn’t it be best to just have different amounts of cp to different factions? For example Guard battalion 3 cp and Necron Battalion 5 cp? It would also be a lot easier for GW to further balance this in future FAQs. It seems like a no brainer to me.

    Anyway, thanks for a very interesting and informative episode.

    • NinetyNineNo September 11, 2018 2:26 pm #

      Faction-specific detachments a la formations?

      • rvd1ofakind September 11, 2018 6:51 pm #

        Yeah, didn’t they say we’d get those at the very start of 8th? Maybe I’m misremembering that.

  8. BK September 11, 2018 12:24 pm #

    Are Tactical Marines that bad or are they average? I’ve used a few 5 man squads with a heavy weapon in addition to scouts just to fill out a detachment requirement. They generally speaking sit in cover for a 2+ and hold an objective. “Meh” unit, but I don’t know if I’d say they are bad.

    • Reecius
      Reecius September 11, 2018 1:55 pm #

      They are very good at paying defense, IMO. In my Raven Guard army I absolutely use 5 man Tac units and they do great. They sit on an objective at -1 to hit with a 2+ and being essentially immune to morale. It’s great. However, for 13pts, they really don’t deliver an adequate stat line, IMO.

      • BK September 12, 2018 2:45 pm #

        Thanks. Yeah my experience is that Tac marines of all variety are “fine” in min units sitting on an objective in some cover or the like. It is when they try to do something more that they fall down.

        I guess scouts could sit on that backfield objective as well though and are only a bit worse off in durability. Or guardsmen.

        But I think like yourself, I really like my brigades so someone has to fill those troop choices!

        • Reecius
          Reecius September 14, 2018 11:08 am #

          Exactly! That is precisely why I use them.

    • mike September 11, 2018 7:04 pm #

      Many units do okay for their cost, and then do great for their cost when the situation lines up with exactly what they were designed for.

      Tac marines do horrible for their cost, and step up to “meh okay” if they get to hide in cover on an objective.

      So yes they are bad.

  9. Sykzs September 11, 2018 12:25 pm #

    Taking to heart Geoff’s repeated comments about how engaging with the community is the best way to advocate for its growth, I just wanted to say that I thoroughly enjoyed Reece being on the cast and would love to hear his input more often. While I’m not sure I agree with his take on SM potency specifically, I love hearing him advocate in the comments for lists and armies that do get largely squashed under the weight of public opinion. Bringing it to the podcast was a great idea and developed the conversation even further. For me personally, hearing both his and Geoff’s open minded perspectives on list building philosophies inspires me to keep trying to figure out my Deathwatch/Custodes list in a way that’s competitive but still enjoyable to play (to my tastes at least). Thanks for the cast guys!

    • Reecius
      Reecius September 11, 2018 1:54 pm #

      Glad you enjoyed it, sir =)

      And feel free to disagree with any of my points. That’s the point of spirited discourse! The best ideas come out of that type of interaction, IMO.

  10. Donthemagnificent September 11, 2018 4:26 pm #

    Daw! You guys are so kind to me. As a slight amendment, I only had DG and Renegade Knights for BAO. I had DG/nurgle daemons for the pre-faq PBC list.

  11. Pyrothem September 11, 2018 9:06 pm #

    I understand why Necrons were not talked about, you wanted to talk about armies your guests were familiar with. This was the correct call. Better to have in depth conversations then just a shallow gloss over. 🙂

    As far as the Doomsday Ark that sun has set with the Knight codex. Playing about 200 points to do about 3.7 wounds a round is disappointing. Then they find out that they are just T6 with a 4+ save and if they move at all they can’t fire their big gun… and so they chuckle a bit and shoot a Helverin at it and pop goes the ‘Anti-Tank’.

    Trying to make Necron Melee viable as that seems like that is the only path to going toe to toe with the sea of knights on the tables today.

    • maraach September 12, 2018 5:32 am #

      A helverin wont kill a DDA in one round on average dice. You can also use Quantum Deflection to make 50% of those hits, that get past the armor save, do zero damage. Even when an Ark gets tracked you spend 1 CP to shoot full BS.

      They are one of the best units in the codex. People overlooking them are really missing out. When not fighting knights they are a mobile gun boat with Sauthekh.

      Most of our melee units cost too much, and you have to get them to the knight at full strength. That is hard to do most of the time with guard screens.

      • abusepuppy September 12, 2018 6:54 am #

        I don’t think it’s so much that people are overlooking them (it’s widely known how good they are) as it is that the DDA simply isn’t enough to make Necrons good. There are a lot of things that kill them pretty hard and Eldar especially just absolutely _destroy_ both the DDA and Necrons in general, which is not a weakness you can afford to have in the current meta. Add in the vulnerability to Knights and you’re looking at a really bad time overall.

        • Pyrothem September 12, 2018 10:37 am #

          True that for the eldar having the hard counter. On a plus side my Necrons really help out my local SM players morale. Necron vehicles are a Hellblasters favorite treat. 😀

          I think that the sad part is Necrons do not have a place in the game as it is.
          They do not have the cheap bodies and or speed for board control to play objective game. No easy way to get CP battalions.

          They do not have point effective way to deal with hoards, when you opponent starts bringing 250+ models necrons can not pump out enough wounds to ever deal with it.

          They can not deal with Armor lists and can not make an armor heavy list work… that one makes me sad with the Monolith being in the running for worst unit for cost in the game.

          They can not outlast other durable armies becuase their RP is shut down by playing the game and destroying units. If you are playing a game where your opponent can not kill off 10 t4 3+ guys a round you are playing a fluffy game…

          They do not have scary firepower. 95% of their range is 24″ so easy to zone out when their speed is 5″. They have ok firepower but no player is scared of being tabled by a Necron of all armies.

          Talking to a high ranking ITC guy who is in the top10 hunt summed it up nicely for me “If I see my opponent has a Necron army I know he has no way of beating me if I just play normally, only if I make some extraordinary bad plays could there be even a chance with dice luck could he win.”

          No one says “Oh Necrons I must play around X and do Y to win” that is the failing of the faction, they have nothing to offer the game besides being just ok.

          I don’t know if Chapter Approved can fix this though, what do you think?

          • abusepuppy September 12, 2018 1:21 pm
            #

            I think Necrons are certainly fixable- with some point drops and changes to some of the lists that are currently ruling the meta, they could definitely have a place. Their basic troops are surprisingly scary to a lot of armies and they have a number of tools that are a lot more effective than people give them credit for, just ones that don’t really help solve the problems they are currently having. If we see another big shakeup from Chapter Approved and/or the Fall FAQ this year (which I think everyone is expecting), Necrons certainly have a shot of making their way into the top ranks.

  12. Cavalier September 12, 2018 7:36 am #

    This was such a good podcast. I loved the Eldar and Space Marine analysis. I’m such a huge fan of Reece’s lists. My goal is to get my Iyanden Eldar up and running as soon as I finish my Harlequin detachment. I’m actually gonna take a stab at Saim-Hann with a big huge unit of Windriders while not amazing, are highly are underrated.

    Fantastic episode guys loved it!

    • Reecius
      Reecius September 14, 2018 11:09 am #

      Glad you liked it, buddy!

  13. Kraig September 12, 2018 11:39 am #

    I just want comment that as a new 40k player I really appreciate this episode. I’ve always been one to stubbornly go off-meta in strategy games and RPGs, usually to my detriment but sometimes it has paid off big. 40k will be no different and it’s encouraging to hear from some veteran players that this at least might not be a hopeless endeavor.

    • Vercingatorix September 12, 2018 12:38 pm #

      Pretty much everyone tries to do something different. The amount of “different” is the only thing people disagree about. From “different” as in a meta list with a unit swapped to completely forgotten faction. Generally the “being different” of using a good list with a small difference is way way more rewards than using a forgotten faction. So basically if you do the former, you’ll likely have success, if you do the latter, you are going to struggle.

      It just depends on what you want out of the game. Reece even said he didn’t win as much after playing weird lists but had more fun.

  14. Bedmond Loans September 12, 2018 10:20 pm #

    I also really enjoyed this episode and thanks for coming on Reece – it was really cool to hear about your SM.

    I really hope you can come back on with Geoff or Sean again.

    One point of constructive criticism –

    Pablo doesn’t really seem to listen to what his guests are saying. Every time Reece would finish answering one of Pablo’s questions there would be a long pause ….. and then Pablo would say “Yea” and then ask a completely unrelated question. I.e. he hadn’t listened to the answer at all.

    I find that really distracting and it damages the flow of the podcast. I guess it leaves the listener feeling “mm that was a really good answer that I listened too intently, why doesn’t he think so?”

    If you can’t concentrate on the whole answer, maybe just edit out the awkward pause and the ‘Yea’?

    (I love you Pablo thanks for taking the time to make this podcast I always listen to it)

    • Petey Pab
      Petey Pab September 13, 2018 2:45 pm #

      Hello! I would say the term “every time” is very untrue. 15 minutes in I respond to something Reece says at least twice.

      The two instances where this did happen I can explain. One time I was distracted by something going on in the room. I’m human, unfortunately I missed some stuff Reece said and I even referenced it when I asked if he had mentioned the Fire Prism earlier. Right before I started talking about said Fire Prism.

      The other time I was simply trying to move the conversation along. We were on a time constraint this podcast and I know Reece can talk FOREVER about literally anything so it really helps moving the conversation along. Coincidentally something i’ve been accused of never doing….

      Thanks for listening!

  15. Tapiokas September 13, 2018 3:26 am #

    Great work guys!
    Could we possibly get blessed with Reece’s SM army list? I’ve heard some bits about it and sounds awesome!

    • abusepuppy September 13, 2018 6:29 am #

      Off the top of my head, so probably is missing/incorrect on some stuff:

      ULTRAMARINES BRIGADE
      Tigurius
      Telion
      Captain (Jump Pack, Hammer, Shield)
      5 Sniper Scouts
      5 Sniper Scouts
      5 Sniper Scouts
      5 Scouts
      5 Scouts
      5 Scouts
      Company Champion
      Apothecary
      Ancient
      10 Sternguard
      3 Scout Bikes
      3 Scout Bikes
      3 Scout Bikes
      5 Devastators (4 HBs, Cherub)
      5 Devastators (4 HBs, Cherub)
      5 Devastators (4 HBs, Cherub)
      SUPERHEAVY AUXILIARY
      Ghillieman

      • Reecius
        Reecius September 13, 2018 6:10 pm #

        Wow, nice, almost exactly correct apart from the Devs having 2 Heavy Bolters each and one Dev squad had a Missile Launcher and Heavy Bolter (for FLakk Missile).

        • Nick September 13, 2018 8:22 pm #

          Did you ever consider a 10 man Scout Squad, to really maximize Tellion?

          We’re in a strange place when HB chucking mortal wounds is most of your anti-tank. One thing that’s really intriguing about this list is that there is so much T4, and so little of value of AT weapons

          • abusepuppy September 14, 2018 6:27 am
            #

            Yeah, there’s definitely some value to an all-infantry list that negates the enemy’s AT. It’s a bit weirder for Marines, though, since that AT is more efficient when shooting at their basic guys, though obviously still worse than shooting a “proper” target.

          • Reecius
            Reecius September 14, 2018 11:11 am
            #

            I did consider it but points were tight. If I dropped the Company Champ I could do it. I brought him to be an Engineer and then learned at the event that Characters couldn’t be Engineer’s unless they were a vehicle or monster, lol. oops!

        • Tapiokas September 14, 2018 2:26 am #

          Cheers for the list abuse!

          The list looks super interesting and I will definitely give it a go!

          However, it looks a bit low on the defense side. How, would you protect your units against lets say 2xdark talons?

          • abusepuppy September 14, 2018 6:29 am
            #

            Cover is a big one- if you can get that 2+ armor save, you’re a lot better off than you might think at first glance. It does suffer from having most of its offense contained in a small handful of units, though, so if the enemy can get rid of those you’re in a bad place- that’s one reason I actually like adding bodies to Devastator squads.

          • Reecius
            Reecius September 14, 2018 11:12 am
            #

            Yeah, you have safety in numbers, too. Lots of redundancy. Also, you shoot in death with the banner which is really good. It allows you take things out even as you get taken out. Makes up for a lot of weaknesses in the list.

        • Schmuvness September 14, 2018 5:25 am #

          I also took all the bits and pieces Reece gave us from the podcasts and played this list yesterday versus a pretty generic DE List (2 Big squads of Grotesques, Rakarth, Wracks, 3 Ravagers, Writ of the living muse Archon, A lot of flayed skull Venoms and Raiders-> tons of Disintegrator Cannons).

          I didnt take the Company Champ (i dont get the ITC ruling on that one, we dont play ITC in Germany) and i swapped the Sternguard for 5 man Vanguards. I know Reece says the Sternguard is invaluable but i really dont get how these can be efficient while on foot.I put the gained points in heavy weapons. Each Dev Squad being equipped with 1 LC, 1 ML, 2 HB.

          We had a fairly open Battefield and my opponent let me go first, well knowing that I didn’t stand a big chance.
          In lack of better targets (shrieking jets say hello) i was only able to shoot at grotesques and was able to kill one sqaud of 7, which was very impressive. I think i pumped about 10 Mortal Wounds in them between Smite, Snipers and Hellfire Shells. All while walking up the table with my whole blobb.

          In his round he dropped in his deployment zone and shot my devs and snipers to pieces, i was able to retaliate to some degree because of the banner but wasnt even able to kill one ravager in his round.

          In my round 3 i had only characters left while my opponent had only lost 1 raider, 2 venoms, ten warriors, Rakarth (which i sniped lol) and 7 Grotesques.

          I made a couple of mistakes here and there, for example sniping rakarth was a bad decision, but all things considered i dont see right how this kind of list is holding its own in a very competetive setting and the current metagame.
          I liked the possibilty to shoot MoWos at range though and telion also fits perfeclty in this list as a cheap hq that has a devecnt weapon (which gets absurdly good through guiilliman).

          Im totally looking forward to reeces article about the archetype. I hope I can learn more stuff about it and maybe give it another go.

          • Nick W September 14, 2018 10:39 am
            #

            Sternguard have 30″ bolters, are often overlook, and the +1 to Wound Stratagem helps quite a bit. I’ve had them take 4 wounds off a Leviathan on 10 shots with no rerolls. 30″ bolters are overlooked.

            -2 AP on those bolters as well. I don’t see the use in comparing VS T4 3+ models but its the math I have memorized; it takes 9 S4 AP- shots to kill 1 Marine; 6 S4 AP-1 shots to kill 1 Marine; and 4.5 S4 AP-2 shots to kill 1 marine. So offensive output alone, a Sternguard model is twice as killy as a single tactical/bolter scout.

          • Reecius
            Reecius September 14, 2018 10:57 am
            #

            Yeah, they’re really solid.

          • Reecius
            Reecius September 14, 2018 11:17 am
            #

            Sorry it didn’t work for you, buddy.

            The Company Champion was there to be the engineer in NOVA missions but I was mistaken on that, he can’t actually do it. Oh well, he still proved to be quite useful.

            I haven’t had too much issue with Eldar of any flavor with my army, honestly. However, YMMV of course.

            And as Nick W says below, the Sternguard are really good for me. They do a lot of damage against almost any target and are decent in melee, too.

          • Schmuvness September 15, 2018 4:01 am
            #

            Ok, you convinced me. I will give the ten man Sternguard Squad on foot a testdrive.

            Speaking of Aeldari: How Do you deal with, common units, Reece?
            Namely Ravagers and Shining Spears?

            I greatly appreciate the input.

          • Reecius
            Reecius September 15, 2018 9:51 am
            #

            I find Spears not to be so bad, honestly. If you position Smash Captain or Bobby G to heroically intervene they tend to make short work of them.

            Ravagers can be tough for Marines for sure, but with adequate terrain you should be getting at 5+ save vs. them in cover and can hide, often. If you have a wide open table it is tough, for sure. Also, with Tiggy, you make your most valuable unit -1 to be hit.

            I also tend to focus Mortal Wounds on them. Even when you get shot by them with the banner, fire those Mortal Wounds back at them. Sternguard are also very effective against them, wounding them on a 4+ with the strat at -2 AP with re-rolls to hit and wound. They will stack a lot of damage on them.

            It sounds like you’re not playing with a ton of LoS blocking terrain though, which really can make it a struggle. However, with lots of bodies I find I can take the punch and then counter effectively, taking them out pretty quickly. YMMV though, of course.

            Hope that helps!

          • Schmuvness September 16, 2018 3:39 am
            #

            Thank you a lot. It definitely is good input.

            In my next testgame i will switch one Heavy Bolter Marine Squad for a TFC. That gem is so damn good. The remaining points i invest in some more Heavy weapons in the remaining Dev squds.

            Do you still favor a Thunderfire Cannon? Or do you think those Devastators are key and that the tremor shell gem does not do much in the current meta game (f.e. because everything is fly or titanic)?

          • Reecius
            Reecius September 16, 2018 8:26 am
            #

            Yeah, T-Fire cannons are amazing. I wished I had one at NOVA but I couldn’t fit it due to taking the company champion mistakenly. I would have had one otherwise. In several of my games it would have made a big difference.

        • abusepuppy September 14, 2018 6:26 am #

          Ah, okay, I was wondering why you didn’t have any MLs- I find they’re a very underrated weapon for factions that get access to Flak Missile.

          I actually have liked MLs andr HBs in Scout Squads for similar reasons- it makes them into a legit threat over the course of the game that most people can’t ignore, as those mortal wounds really stack up. They also tend to be less obvious of targets than the Devs, though they can’t take advantage of Cherub shenanigans with the strat.

          • Reecius
            Reecius September 14, 2018 11:14 am
            #

            That is why I run only 2 heavies in the Dev squads as they are typically target priority #1 for my opponents. They get some ablative wounds that way.

            The double pump on the cherub+signum+mortal wound strat is the real juice in that combo. Plus you can fire mortal wounds when they die in your opponent’s shooting phase and then bring them back with the apothecary to do it again in your turn!

  16. trantatrus September 14, 2018 4:20 am #

    One of the best episodes in ages. Reecius you were absolutely great. Brilliant topic of discussion, and I have just one complaint – I wanted it to go longer!

    I personally can’t stand the groupthink and the immediate dismissal of anything not shown to be good by a better player. These “better players” are only humans like you, and there’s no reason you can’t be equally trailblazing in finding success as any of the top tier players who innovate on a per tourney basis. They just aren’t as conditioned into letting other worse players dictate their decisions.

    I’m not saying pay no heed to what does well, or ignore well formulated logic – but the narrow list of units that the internet has deemed useable? Well… https://i.imgur.com/TOPALLz.jpg

    • Reecius
      Reecius September 14, 2018 11:18 am #

      Glad you liked it =)

      I agree, people tend to go with the group and can miss out on some of their own awesome ideas.

  17. trantatrus September 15, 2018 4:16 am #

    Just a question for Geoff (or anyone who cares to answer), why does he specifically mention 10 Deathwatch Veterans with Storm Bolters as one of the best Power Armor units? Don’t get me wrong I think they are quite good, but for a little bit more points you can take 4x Aggressors + 5x Intercessors + 1x Inceptor, and have a unit that does almost 150% as many shots, can fall back and shoot, and then threatens to throw out an absurd amount of dice the next turn if your opponent doesn’t immediately deal with them, or flee. Veterans seem to pale in comparison to this awesome option by my measure, but I have a lot of respect for Geoff’s opinions so I’d love to hear why.

    • abusepuppy September 15, 2018 5:28 am #

      The big advantage of Veterans is that they gain benefit from Special Ammunition (whereas Aggressors do not.) So while those Aggressors are getting more shots, the Veterans are getting shots that are a lot more effective against most targets- and are quite a lot cheaper, to boot. Obviously there are advantages to the Primaris unit as well, but the Veterans with Storm Bolters have a pretty insane fire output, usually enough to wipe any infantry units within range of their guns.

      • trantatrus September 16, 2018 8:18 am #

        Hey Sean, thanks for the response – what you say makes sense in theory, but can you give me an example of a unit that the Veterans perform better against? Because for the life of me I cannot think of one.

  18. AJShadowhawk September 17, 2018 9:38 am #

    Great podcast, guys. Really liked some of the in-depth discussions, especially regarding Deathwatch. On that note, Reece, do you have any plans to take Deathwatch to a tournament in the near future? They are my second army, first being Blood Angels, and I’ve been trying to make mono-Deathwatch work for myself locally for some time and completely failing. Anti-infantry is no problemo, but anti-tank has been giving me headaches, especially with a 1500 pt store tournament coming up next month. We just don’t have any good units out of the codex that can deal efficiently with knights and tanks.

    • Reecius
      Reecius September 17, 2018 10:45 am #

      I was going to bring them to ATC but just didn’t have time to get them built and painted. As that has come and gone I am not certain on if I will actually collect them or not. I just lack time and I already have like 12 armies, lol. Perhaps I will as in practice (proxying them) I have had tremendous results with DW Veterans. They do staggering damage.

      • AJShadowhawk September 18, 2018 6:20 am #

        Hope to see some Deathwatch stuff from you in the future!

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