GW Grognard: Drunk on your salty tears of woe

Hey everyone! Adam, from TFG Radio, here to stuff your ear holes with nuggets of words from my brain pan!

It’s been a very busy week. With the the release of the Big FAQ by Games Workshop, the internet as been a buzz with the chatter of different opinions  and attitudes. As we all know, the internet is full of the most level headed people you can imagine.  Haha, no, seriously, Thiweek has been one of the most enjoyable I have had on Facebook. Watching everyone flailing about, trying to do the mental gymnastics to make their now obsolete army, or tactics, work has been very amusing. From the start I thought to myself, “What did you expect?”

Somehow this seemed appropriate

For the most part, we all knew what was coming.  In fact, many people were anxious for this latest course correction of the game. Like the saying goes, “Be careful what you wish for”. As a result, there has been a large increase in the salt level of a large number of the player base, and I don’t mean the Tau players.  But to be fair, let’s go over the big one.

Beta Reserve Rule: This has caused the biggest disruption, with many players declaring that they are quitting the game or selling off their army to build a new one. The most fun I have had is reading the mental and semantic gymnastics to both prove and disprove the exception to the new beta rules. From the lamentations of Blood Angel and Grey Knight players, to the RAW reading by tournament organizers and judges (myself included), it has been a entertaining to say the least.

Games Workshop has a history of  making the pendulum swing when they make corrections to the game. Anyone who has been playing the game for the last year or two should realize this. As for having to wait an extra turn in order to deep strike out of your deployment zone, it really isn’t a big deal. As mentioned by other people, you’ll now have to invest into more durable units that can survive a turn or two of shooting before your heavy hitters drop in. If only there was an edition where we had to wait until turn 2 before our reserves could come in. Then we would have the experience from playing such games to be able to more easily adapt to this radical change to the game. If only…

Which stage are you on?

Look, I get it. You spent all this time and money on getting the models and developing a strategy in order for you to have fun and win games. The hard truth is that this is what happens when you see these extreme armies at different events. You really should have seen the writing on the wall when they decided to fix flyers after they won a grand tournament shortly after the release of 8th edition. I admit that I don’t agree with all of the changes, so the best advice I can give is to just roll with the changes and enjoy the game.

That’s all for this week, I hope you enjoyed the read. I’m sure all of you will be back on your feet after drowning in your tears. Let me know how you’re coping with the changes and let me know if there is anything you want me to cover. Don’t forget to visit our Facebook, Twitch, and Patreon pages to stay up to date on what we’re up to and when episodes drop!

And remember, Frontline Gaming sells gaming products at a discount, every day in their webcart!

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About Adam

Adam has been gaming since the early eighties and has played 40K since Rogue Trader (among a number of other games). He listens to more podcasts than any healthy person should and is currently a co-host for TFG Radio. He also is one of the head judges for LVO and other events.

40 Responses to “GW Grognard: Drunk on your salty tears of woe”

  1. Xerxus April 21, 2018 12:59 am #

    “The hard truth is that this is what happens when you see these extreme armies at different events. You really should have seen the writing on the wall when they decided to fix flyers after they won a grand tournament shortly after the release of 8th edition.”

    Did anyone expect GW to blanket nerf deepstrikers? I have not seen a single person who predicted this change. In particular no one claimed that Blood Angels or Grey Knights deserved a nerf like this. Truth of the matter is that no build is safe when changes to core mechanics can drop every 6 months. Next up might be -1 to hit with ranged weapons during turn 1. Who knows?

    “If only there was an edition where we had to wait until turn 2 before our reserves could come in.”

    Completely different context, the lethality of shooting in this edition is far beyond what it used to be. There are plenty of units out there with 36″+ range that can make 50-100% of their points back in one turn when firing at relatively durable units. If I choose to deepstrike a significant portion of my army with the intent to drop the deepstrikers into charge range on turn 2 then the units left on the board will be at a disadvantage. The opponent will be able to deal crippling damage to my ground units with little damage in return because points-wise they will be outnumbered 3:2 or 2:1. There is the possibility of hiding those units in order to mitigate this damage, but then I am allowing my opponent free reign to establish board control and put my deepstrikers out of position for the rest of the game.

    • Zool April 21, 2018 4:42 am #

      The problem is 9″ deepstrike charge on turn 1 before a 2000 point seasoned dakka army is not a good idea. On average u will faill the charge 3 times from 4. And even if u manage the charge,overwatch and free opponent fight phase(hello character heroic intervention) after fall back u are shot dead hundred times.

      I think the whole deepstrike nerf was aimed at ranged weapons with lots of shoots and not melle.Like 40 cheap gurdians for free 80 shots on turn 1.

    • AnonAmbientLight April 21, 2018 7:17 am #

      If it turns out this change is too much for an army like Grey Knights, or Blood Angles, they may become exceptions just like how Grey Knights and 1K Sons are exceptions to the Smite rule.

      Imagine an ability that let you choose half the units in your army and make them untargetable by your opponent, but also makes them unable to target units themselves up until turn 3. That’s essentially what deepstrike does. It’s powerful, and it should be reigned in a bit, don’t you think?

      The other issue is that you can decide when to make those units “targetable” again (by deepstriking), and when they come down they get to fight first usually. Again, very powerful.

      The only way that armies had a chance to deal with them was with screening units. Not just for the purposes of charge denial, but shooting and positioning too.

      With it being a Beta Rule, I would highly suggest that the rule be tested and considered from all angles before any real criticism.

      • Adam April 21, 2018 7:53 am #

        I think it’s the initial rage quit that gets me. You invest all this time in a hobby you supposedly love and then just quit after a change you don’t like. You were able to weather an edition change, which is a major upheaval, but fold at a FAQ change?

        Like I mentioned, I don’t agree with all of the changes but I will be playing using the new beta rules, which has now been clarified so that it softens the blow to BA and GK, and give CONSTRUCTIVE feedback to GW. Raging and taking an abusive tone with them will just make them shut you out.

      • Xerxus April 21, 2018 8:32 am #

        “It’s powerful, and it should be reigned in a bit, don’t you think?”

        I agree that it should be reigned in if the stated goal is to reduce alpha strike, I think we can all agree that less alpha strike is good. The point of my post is not that this rule shouldn’t exist, but that alpha strike has not been limited across the board. This leaves assault armies at a disadvantage.

        • abusepuppy April 21, 2018 10:00 pm #

          Which alpha strike armies do you think were powerful/popular prior to this and remained unaffected, or largely unaffected, by the changes?

          • Xerxus April 21, 2018 11:59 pm
            #

            One example of an army that didn’t need the previous type of deepstriking rules and is still really powerful with good alpha is Drukhari. They can put three Ravagers in deepstrike and use them to devastating effect when they drop, whether they choose to deepstrike them on turn 1 or not. Kabalite Warriors with Blasters in Venoms, Razorwing Jetfighters etc are still capable of dealing full damage on turn 1 with remarkable efficiency.

          • abusepuppy April 22, 2018 12:48 am
            #

            I think it’s hard to argue at this point that Drukhari are an established, powerful army, though- I think they are definitely on the track to being a significant part of the meta, but not in nearly so much of a shooting role as you seem to envision them in (as they will typically lose a shooting war to Eldar, Tau, or Guard.)

            It is certainly true that the changes do not affect every army equally, but that is an impossible goal- NO change would ever do that. I think you’ll find that things are much, much less tilted in favor of gunline/shooting armies than people seem to believe, provided you are playing with the types of cover that the ITC has been recommending since the beginning. (Of course, in the absence of that shooting is obviously more powerful, but I believe that was the case before, too, so it’s not really a shift.)

          • Xerxus April 22, 2018 2:05 am
            #

            I wouldn’t be so sure that they lose a shooting war with those armies. Even if they were to have a bad matchup vs Craftworlds the most powerful lists will probably be Aeldari soup anyway. I chose Drukhari as my example because this change to deepstrike on turn 1 doesn’t affect Ravagers in deepstrike nearly as much and their damage efficiency is incredible. I don’t think more terrain is a realistic solution. The amount of LOS-blockers that would have to be on the table to deny these Drukhari units the opportunity to fire at something important on turn 1 would be ridiculous. Cover doesn’t really matter either since Kabal of the Flayed Skull makes these units ignore it.

            I’m not asking them to change every army equally, I just want them to try to do so in this case. This change was intended to weaken alpha strike – then make changes to alpha strike across the board. There are plenty of ways to make a similar change to long-range units.

    • Adam April 21, 2018 7:57 am #

      In early 8th we had a number of our players comment on how lethal the 1st turn was whether it was shooting or assault deep strikers, thats why you started to see the blobs and zoning out, which are still needed.

      Dropping in turn 2, although a little different in this edition, still has similarities to when we did it in previous editions so should still be familiar to players and thus easier for them to adapt to the beta rule. Now if you just started with 8th and this is your first time dealing with the deep strike rule, then you just need to adjust accordingly, no matter the army you play.

      • Xerxus April 21, 2018 8:07 am #

        I appreciate the sentiment but if you read my post, you’ll see why the editions are not comparable in this respect.

        • Desc440 April 21, 2018 5:20 pm #

          Completely agreed. How people can manage to miss that is beyond me. Just the simple fact that in 7th, you could drop anywhere that was outside of 1 inch is a huge difference that automatically disqualifies any comparison between then and now.

          At the very least, GW should decrease the distance deep-strikers must appear away from enemy models if they are going to stick to T2 deep strikes.

          • Adam April 23, 2018 9:41 pm
            #

            But I’m not comparing that aspect. What I am comparing is the fact that you had to wait until turn 2(or later depending on how your rolls went) to have your reinforcements arrive.

          • Xerxus April 24, 2018 12:51 am
            #

            Your were suggesting that the deepstrike rules are a little different but that there are enough similarities to 7th to where the situations that will arise are familiar to players of 7th ed. I disagree, the rules related to deepstrike and the circumstances of 8th differ significantly from 7th. The scenario which I outlined in my post did not go down the same way in 7th.

  2. Mex April 21, 2018 1:12 am #

    You’ve hit the nail on the head, go out & buy more models while adding these ones to the one’s already sitting on the shelf, the more GW changes the more things stay the same, not that Frontline Gaming has a vested interest in selling more models.

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 21, 2018 7:47 am #

      Lol, yeah, you got it. You have uncovered our nefarious plot. Oh what shall we do now???

      Come on, man, give me a break. A good game sells well, much better than some rinky-dink plan to try and drum up sales in the short term at the risk of making the game worse.

      That just does not make sense in any world, lol. 8th ed is the most popular edition by a mile, and it is selling incredibly well and that is because it is a fun edition. These changes were implemented to try and make the game more fun for more people.

      You may disagree, which is fine and of course your right to do so, but your conspiracy theory is miles off of the mark. We have every incentive to make the best possible game as that will drive sales and ensure the long term health of the game and the business of Games Workshop.

      • KRQuinn April 21, 2018 2:36 pm #

        Wow..you have graduated to the ’40K Sales Illuminati’..lol. I’ve been waiting a bit to fill out my army..think I’m just going to order from you guys now. I’m assuming you earn ‘degrees’ from how much you sell..right? Well, lets make you a Grandmaster then. In all seriousness, ‘Mex’..that was just one of those comments that makes me wonder about the future of mankind..cmon man.

      • abusepuppy April 21, 2018 10:03 pm #

        Reece, I know this isn’t really the place for this, but I figured I would ask here to get your attention: I recently put in my application for the Warhammer 40K Tau-Haters Illuminati membership, but the online registry says that they can’t find it in their database anywhere. Do I have to resubmit and pay the $50 fee as well as sacrifice my firstborn child again, or are the costs waived for future submissions so long as a burn an offering before the altar of Matt Ward? I would appreciate a timely response on this matter (or, if you can, speak with George Soros personally on the matter) so that I don’t have to wait until the next solstice to get my medical and dental benefits cleared.

        • VIth April 22, 2018 8:01 am #

          One can only imagine what the basement walls looks like with the Sinister GW Sales Cabal laid out with the grainy headshots with strands of yarns running amongst the connected members to conclude it’s a conspiracy to a) nerf Tau, b) nerf assault armies, and c) sell more miniatures.

          • AngryPanda April 24, 2018 3:48 am
            #

            Considering some of their sales plans included masterstrokes like “let’s not update Orks for 10 years and then release a Codex that is a suckerpunch once we finally do” I would imagine that basement is full of people trying and failing to nibble what they just picked out of their noses since they got caught in too many of the yard strings.

  3. Venkarel April 21, 2018 9:18 am #

    This might not be the place but I have a question about the Ynarri, say I have a battalion of CW Eldar, do I have to take two CW HQ and 3 troop or 1 CW HQ and one of the Ynarri HQ? How about a Patrol can I take Yvraine and a CW troop or do I have to take a CW HQ, the Yvraine and a troop? I am hung up on the language can include any of these models in any {Eldar} detachment. Does this mean replace an HQ or in addition to the normal HQ’s?

  4. Don Tomaso April 21, 2018 6:40 pm #

    “increase in the salt level of a large number of the player base, and I don’t mean the Tau players.”

    No because they got a gigantic buff in a free turn of shooting genius.

    “The most fun I have had is reading the mental and semantic gymnastics to both prove and disprove the exception to the new beta rules. From the lamentations of Blood Angel and Grey Knight players”

    So you think it is fun and laughable that gk players who have been at the codex creep trash pile with the worst book of all armies got upset and “ranted” about having their meagre upsides nerfed yet again?

    When you have such a bad codex and such a weak army then every little crumb like the GOI ruling is worth a lot and hence those debates on various boards.

    Guess as long as your am, nids or aeldari still easily win tournaments everything is ok and you can laugh at the frustration of players who are shelving their armies in sheer frustration and anger.
    Screw them right, its their own fault for not having “fun” and enjoying the hobby as much as the AM player.

    • abusepuppy April 21, 2018 10:05 pm #

      It’s too bad there is absolutely nothing that GK players can do to help improve their army, other than the thing that the GK player I know did to improve her army.

      But obviously no one is interested in that, they want to complain and feel persecuted by the Evil Liberal Media. Wait, no, I mean by the Evil 40K Shooting Illuminati.

      • Blight1 April 22, 2018 1:12 pm #

        All vitriol aside I actually would be interested in how you or your friend run GK. Haven’t run mine in years but know a couple people who still do and they seemed to have given up on them being a competitive army.
        Don’t have to give the whole thing as a reply to me but a tactica article would be appreciated.

        • abusepuppy April 23, 2018 11:11 pm #

          Well, the short version is pretty simple: pure GK doesn’t work, and hasn’t worked pretty much since allies have been a thing. So if you’re trying to do that… well, the unfortunate reality is that it’s not gonna happen. You can certainly _play_ that list, but you’re not going to make top tables with it, because it doesn’t have the tools it needs to fight most of the top armies.

          Outside of that scope, however, GK can certainly still contribute to an army. Interceptors are functionally going to replace Strike Squads- they are a bit more expensive, but you do at least gain a 12″ move and the ability to ignore terrain in the bargain, so it’s not a complete loss. Grandmaster Dreadknights will probably fall out of favor, as the only way to really make great use of them was to bring large numbers, and three probably just doesn’t cut it- unless you’re running another faction that can bring some big, aggressive targets to the fore as well. Along with some sort of HQ (Grandmaster, Draigo, or Voldus being the most likely picks) that uses Gate to move forward, that basically completes the GK portion of the force- remember, while you can only bring three units of Interceptors, the 10man squads can break up via Combat Squads, which actually gives you quite a bit of flexibility (and a lot of Smites.)

          Beyond that, you’re looking to some combination of other Imperial factions to bring other aggressive or backfield elements. Sisters of Battle, Custodes, and Blood Angels are all good for putting threats downfield quickly; Raven Guard can also do so, as can Space Wolves. Imperial Guard is obviously useful for getting extra CP if needed and holding your home objectives. Finding the right combination of threats is the real trick to a list like that, but there are a lot of good options- and I think you’ll find that a lot of the people who are touting the whole “gunlines are king” meme are going to find that one turn of shooting simply is not enough to stop that many tough units from crashing into their lines and wreaking havoc.

  5. Justin April 21, 2018 7:42 pm #

    I have to say kudos to Games Workshop for keeping the bait-and-switch operation going for over 40 years!

  6. Don Tomaso April 22, 2018 12:47 am #

    “It’s too bad there is absolutely nothing that GK players can do to help improve their army, other than the thing that the GK player I know did to improve her army.

    But obviously no one is interested in that, they want to complain and feel persecuted by the Evil Liberal Media. Wait, no, I mean by the Evil 40K Shooting Illuminati.”

    —————–

    Feel free and get your holier then thou behind over there and show the slow witted peasant pedestrians how to L2P. Two 50k-ish boards clearly know less then the 14-hellhounds-are-fun guy.
    You can even take your arrogance and laugh at them and their salty tears when you do it and dont forget to explain away any inconvenient questions with illuminatii and evil liberal media comments.

    My humble guess, and I know nothing since I personally have only been playing competitive GK since they got their first 50p-per-justicar codex last ice age..is use mooore terrain like in place cereal cartons all over the board and use 1500p AM in a 2000p “GK” list but I digress, both communities are eagerly awaiting you wisdom over there.

    While you are at it try also teaching the clueless SM “whiners” how to consequently end up in the top 10 in the next 4-codex tournament oh great guru. Clearly since the SM crowd hasnt been able to achieve these things among all the reapers and nids its because they are stoopid since it cant be their outcreeped codex that was once ok but now lags so far behind a 3 year old can see it, it is after all da strongezt of them all, everybody knows it, they just need to L2P and shut up.

    Its the same consensus all over both boards but hey, they are clearly clueless imbeciles compared to you, the tournament know-it-all and his illuminati evil media.

    http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346450-the-state-of-the-chapter/

    I actually do not agree with them, its not GW that is utterly clueless, its the elitist TOs that “help” them make the decisions. The logic mentioned if one reads a bit, around SM vs guilliman vs nerf says it all.

    As for the GK crowds, you can clearly find them yourself, knowing how to do everything best I mean. Both places have multiple big discussion threads/sections on the matter at hand and would be eternally thankful for your guidance on how to win the next ITC.

    Till then I would be happy to ask someone to convey to both boards that the TOs and their podcast buddies are laughing themselves silly over their salty tears. Hell, maybe even GW would be interested how the bottom tier hobby collectors that are currently shelving their models are being looked down upon by their betters.

    • abusepuppy April 22, 2018 12:52 am #

      It’s amazing that you are dedicated enough to have a thousand-word response explaining why everything is a conspiracy against you and everyone but you is crass an anti-intellectual, yet also clueless enough to not know how to use the Reply button yet after having posted here for months.

    • ryan April 22, 2018 8:32 am #

      its just warhammer bro. Play something else or quit if you dont like it, nobody is gonna be shedding tears.

      • AngryPanda April 24, 2018 3:46 am #

        If everyone angry at GW actualy quit the game would be a third rate competitioner in an overcrowded market.

  7. 17 April 22, 2018 6:08 am #

    Adam,
    This is your best article yet. This made me laugh.

    I can’t agree more with the last paragraph. I’ve been saying things like this to new players and friends in my area for a long time. There will always be the ‘next broken list’….and GW will change a few things. Repeat.

  8. Don Tomaso April 23, 2018 11:21 am #

    “It’s amazing that you are dedicated enough to have a thousand-word response explaining why everything is a conspiracy against you and everyone but you is crass an anti-intellectual, yet also clueless enough to not know how to use the Reply button yet after having posted here for months.”

    Maybe I do this just because I know it irritates you?

    It is really amazing that you despite your failed holier then thou attempt in berating me STILL cannot conjure up a simple answer and teach those crying SM and GK players how to L2P.

    Guess the air blew out of the hot balloon. If you only had enough intellect to keep up backing up your mouth I would almost feel some genuine intelligent substance to take seriously.

    C´mmon champ, I´ll make it really easy even for one such as yourself, I´ll even tag this one up at bnc and dakka so that you can shine.
    With the knowledge of how the top 10 lists looked, meaning the meta is 100% known to you (thus you really cant fail) do the following:

    Tailor for us all a specific GK, and normal SM list that would place several placements at the top 10 in the last two big tournaments like lvo, itc, etc.

    I and soon two main boards will eagerly await your wisdom. Fear not, everything is just a “conspiracy” and remember, GK and SM are soooo strong!

    • Kevin Lantz April 24, 2018 12:32 am #

      Dom Tomaso, They’ve given you the answer “don’t play pure GK” You don’t see inquisitor warbands with this same level of vitriol saying they can’t play pure inquisitor bands and win… (they can’t) or “pure assassin” lists.

      Don’t expect someone to fall into your “clever trap” and spend alot of effort trying to sway you, when you clearly don’t understand what you read and clearly don’t have a desire to change what you know and love to adapt.

  9. Don Tomaso April 23, 2018 7:37 pm #

    Still not done with your awesome-GK rundown? We are waiting on those simple improvements making them a strong and viable army you know, just as reece once told “us”, we just dont know how to play GKs. The entire community is clueless, help us!

    It should be quite simple for you with the tournament meta 100% known and all.

    By the way, care to teach me how to L2P and make a strooong SM list for me that can go toe to toe with the nids and aeldari that uses all or most of my 8 dust collecting drop pods?
    Not only I but two board communities are clueless about it and since you surely also are the preeminent expert on how strooong everything SM is I figured we can watch you reply and learn from the best.
    Feel free to ask the closest TO game tester in here if you need any help, I´m sure that together you will own us so hard we wont be able to sit down for weeks.

    Look at these clueless guys unable to figure out a way to win easily with one of the games strooongest units, the drop pod. If you dont believe me do scroll around a bit yourself, there are plenty of SM how-do-we-compete threads all over both places not to mention drop-pods- as-paper-weights threads.

    http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346269-drop-pods/

    • AngryPanda April 24, 2018 1:06 am #

      He answered up there in the replies. I have angry in my name and still laugh at the 14 Hellhounds are fun thing but even I think you need to chill a bit.

    • KingAceNumber1 April 25, 2018 12:43 pm #

      From an outsider with no stake in this argument whatsoever, you look insane. Stop.

  10. Adam April 23, 2018 9:42 pm #

    Wow, this week’s comments are my favorite so far. So passionate and insulting, lol. Needs more salt though

    • GhostValley April 24, 2018 3:49 am #

      GW has wrecked my childhood! These event only rules and beta suggestions have forced me to immediately stomp all my plastic men to dust! I haven’t played a game of 8th but I’m on all the forums to scream out reaching rules proclamations. Everyone plays the wrong way but me, including GW!

      Salty enough? 😂

      • abusepuppy April 24, 2018 4:06 am #

        You’re only at like six there, the forums have already hit nines and tens.

        • GhostValley April 24, 2018 4:31 am #

          Darn. I’ll have to lurk dakka and ATT more so I can hone my craft.

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