BAO First 3 Rounds Results and Videos

Day 1 of the 2017 Bay Area Open is in the books. Click here for some great live action and to view the faction breakdown of all 15 undefeated players after round one. 


Here is the first game of the day that we livestreamed. John McCool and his crazy Ork list vs. Alan “PJ Pants” Bajramovic and his Razorwing Flock Ynnari list. Only the first turn was streamed, but it was a crazy turn and the end of the game was a lot closer then expected.

Last year’s previous winner played a 4 Imperial Knight list with his new Astra Militarum list. Brandon Grant is primed to repeat and has not lost momentum since his LVO finals appearance in February.


Geoff and his Tyranids take on Warboss Dugg and his nasty Imperium list. This video was recorded from start to finish and features some real back and forth in a bloody quick game.

If you want to see mode live streams from day 2 stay tuned to our facebook page!

Your Top 15 undefeated factions and players: I decided to list the style of list instead of just the faction. There are a lot more intricacies to a lot of these lists, but most people condense a well-tuned list into one easy to understand concept anyways. So I did it for you guys.

  1. Dustin Lane (9 Commander Suit Tau)
  2. Doug Johnson (Imperium Soup)
  3. Brandon Grant (Astra Militarum Hoard Guard)
  4. Tony Myers (Space Marine Flyers and Guilliman)
  5. Aaron Hayden (Renegane Knights + Magnus + Brimstones)
  6. Adam Gati (Craftworld Ynnari)
  7. Anthony Villa (5 Commanders + Yvarha)
  8. Domagoj Mitrovic (Chaos Daemons, List not posted)
  9. Paul Mckelvey ( The PM Special, + 4 Commanders)
  10. John McCool (Like, a Billion Stormboyz and a Giant Squiggoth)
  11. Kyle Watson (Dark Angel Dreadnoughts and 2 Fire Raptors)
  12. Matt Barlow (Hoard Guard with not just Conscripts)
  13. Phi Tracy (Guilliman + Whirlwinds and Stalkers)
  14. Mitch Pelham (Stormlord + Drop Troopers)
  15. Brian Hart (Militarum Tempestus + a Guard Firebase)

If you want to look at all of the lists check out the Best Coast Pairings player app for Android or iOS.


About Petey Pab

Aspiring 40k analyst, tournament reporter and Ultramarines enthusiast, Petey Pab only seeks to gather more knowledge about the game of 40k and share it with as many people as he can in order to unite both hobbyists and gamers. We are, after all, two sides of the same coin.

98 Responses to “BAO First 3 Rounds Results and Videos”

  1. rvd1ofakind July 30, 2017 12:25 am #

    I’d really like to know about the Ryan Mead Nurgle list.
    1. General strategy
    2. Main summoners and when
    3. Main summons and when
    I was really suprised to see a list like that this high

    • rvd1ofakind July 30, 2017 12:30 am #

      And Domagoj Mitrovic’s list is missing

  2. thedeadlycurtain July 30, 2017 12:39 am #

    If GW nerf Tau commanders (as a Tau player I approve) make sure you still make them viable as a commander still and not as a spam unit. However make sure some of the other terrible anti-tank stuff is buffed up because I don’t want to make such an unfluffy list as commander spam to win in my locals which are hyper competitive.

    • jared July 30, 2017 10:56 am #

      As a tau player myself, commander spam pisses me the hell off.

      • sheit27 July 30, 2017 1:10 pm #

        Can’t fault players for bringing the only viable unit they put in the tau codex that is able to compete with other spam.

        • Finger July 31, 2017 7:06 am #

          +1 Sheit27. If the commander spam is strong (and I want to see it disappeared), the rest of the index is horribly weak and overpriced. BTW, Tau are one of the weakest army of the 8th at the moment. Everyone does not play commander spam (thanks to them.)

          • Reecius July 31, 2017 5:29 pm

            They’re not that weak, honestly. They have lots of viable builds, it’s just early days yet and folks still have a lot to uncover with them. The T’au players we saw were either still trying to play 7th ed style lists or jumped on the Commander wagon. In time more combos and builds will surfce.

    • David Alastair Hayden July 31, 2017 10:54 am #

      So far in my limited experience, a balanced army is a very good counter to commander spam. But tournaments don’t normally see balanced forces, of course. Not saying that’s a fault of tournaments. That’s just how things work.

      • Reecius July 31, 2017 5:24 pm #

        I agree and am and have always been all about the balanced army.

  3. Superashby July 30, 2017 3:18 am #

    Infantry can pass thru walls of ruins, but the vertical distance still has to be counted. Bug player is cheating with movement.

    • Superashby July 30, 2017 3:23 am #

      But starting postion to ending position not like the guard player is saying were you got to count going up/down all along the path. Assuming they are running that as ruin.

      • Superashby July 30, 2017 4:27 am #

        Although, tyranid player seems like straight shooter so probably honest mistake.

        • Superashby July 30, 2017 7:43 am #

          I think the “without further impediment” clause in ruins rules could be read to mean infantry never has to count vertical movement thru ruins as well as going thru wall and not having to worry were the ladder is to get down off a ledge. Which is how I read it cause otherwise regular infantry move up a building as well as a jump infantry. Which jump infantry can do cause it says unit with fly keyword can move through terrain as if it isn’t there. The ruins clause for infantry isn’t that broad as let you move thru it “as if it isn’t there” for fly keyword, just you can move thru it without having to find door/window/ladder. Still have to count your total distance.

    • Reecius July 30, 2017 4:27 pm #

      Infantry ignore vertical movement when moving through ruin walls.

      • Superashby August 12, 2017 5:50 am #

        There is nothing in the ruins rules section that says that you ignore vertical movement between your begining/ending position. It says merely you can move thru walls & floors, not that you ignore the distance with infantry. Nothing that counters pg 177 “No part of the base can move further than move distance” text. His base ending position is further than his starting position than his movement distance would allow, because his unit is like 2inchs higher level at the end of his movement which he didn’t count in both his movement and charge.

  4. blackmage July 30, 2017 3:40 am #

    Funny they use an app non available For any device

    • Peteypab July 30, 2017 1:11 pm #

      BCP player app. I have literally gotten over 20 people to download it thus weekend alone so far.

      May want to check your spelling.

    • Reecius July 30, 2017 4:28 pm #

      It is available for IoS and they’re launching beta for Android.

  5. Ujayim July 30, 2017 4:34 am #

    For as much as people while about Brimstone horrors, they’re not nearly as prevalent in the top lists at the LVO as they’re made out to be. Seems to be a good balance of all the top armies.

    • Ujayim July 30, 2017 4:34 am #

      Meant BAO, not LVO.

    • Loofa4 July 30, 2017 4:46 am #

      Just because they’re hard to get lol

      • Spaceork July 30, 2017 4:55 am #

        They aren’t hard to get. You just purchase them. I don’t think people at this level skimp out on models just because of the price.

      • Subclavian Steel July 31, 2017 10:51 am #

        If models are that hard to get people will buy/build a similar model for counts as. My 52 brims were made out of dryad heads and greenstuff.

        I agree though, that isn’t why there are so few brims. If they were auto win you would see more of them here. Only 2 of the top 15 day 1 had them because chaos is limited on game winning options. Brims are a great starting point, but they alone do not win you the game.

  6. Wayniac July 30, 2017 4:39 am #

    I think this largely shows that, no matter what GW nerfs, this crowd of people will just move on to the next “this gives me a better chance at winning” thing with no regard or concern for anything else.

    • Spaceork July 30, 2017 4:58 am #

      Except there are like 8-10 different lists present in the top 15. Seems pretty diverse to me.

      • Reecius July 30, 2017 4:29 pm #

        It is very diverse. Fun armies, too. Only constant are brims and a conscripts in the top 8.

        • Venkarel July 30, 2017 8:48 pm #

          So the next step in the game is anti-horde just as you all indicated. If we keep following the playtesters arc then after this we will come closer to balance.

  7. Superashby July 30, 2017 4:51 am #

    How are people still confused about the deep strikers having to come in at a 9inch + some non zero number away from unit, means they need a 9inch to charge? 9inch + any non zero number – 1 inch (phantom inch) is greater than 8 inchs.

    • Reecius July 30, 2017 4:30 pm #

      We got asked that a fee times. It is a 9″ charge from reserves.

  8. blackmage July 30, 2017 4:52 am #

    Cause the game is basically wrong

  9. W July 30, 2017 4:55 am #

    Thanks for posting this, Pablo, makes it a lot easier to follow from across the planet 🙂

  10. T6Ted July 30, 2017 5:35 am #

    Looking at Dustin’s list it looks like he only has 4 commanders but has FW and normal Crisis suits and totaling those you get 9 suits.

  11. Colin Sherlow July 30, 2017 5:58 am #

    I don’t see pajama pants list

    • Colin Sherlow July 30, 2017 8:40 am #

      Haha! I meant on the BCP player app

    • Venkarel July 30, 2017 8:51 pm #

      Do not worry about it too much, I do not think even Alan regards his list as that good. Way to many razorwing and not enough Shadow Spectres, wraithguard or dark reapers. He mentioned on stream he cut his flock in half and will probably cut them to like 10 total bases.

  12. blackmage July 30, 2017 6:31 am #

    I dont see any list

  13. Andrew July 30, 2017 7:00 am #

    Tournaments should just require everyone to bring at least one brigade detachment. Or maybe a 2/3 brigade.

    • Reecius July 30, 2017 4:31 pm #

      That kills a lot of cool themed lists, though.

      • Gordon Danke July 30, 2017 6:24 pm #

        It also effectively impossible for certain armies to even field a brigade. Grey Knights, for example, would be locking into basically exactly one list of min units with no upgrades. The idea that every army must fit in a brigade is a terrible idea, to be blunt.

    • Odras July 30, 2017 6:08 pm #

      That generates as many problems as it solves. It will then come down to who has the best and / or cheapest troops then. It will mean whoever has the new scatterbike equivalent will be the best and those who have very cheap troops like brimstone horrors will basically be able to ignore it.

      I think that forcing people to take certain detachments will cause more problems than it will fix. Limiting detachments also has the a similar problem. It will limit lists that are not problematic and will not limit many of the lists that are problematic.

      I don’t think the answer to problem lists is changing the detachment system, I think that is one of the parts of 8th that works well, and problem lists / units can be restricted in other ways.

      • Venkarel July 30, 2017 8:52 pm #

        Exactly! When you favor bring troops those with the best troops wins. Brims and conscripts are good int he current enviroment, they would be everywhere if you made a battalion required (as well as Orks and DE).

  14. Venkarel July 30, 2017 8:16 am #

    The videos being behind a sign in wall on facebook is poor play. Some of us do not want to be the product for a company (some do, not judging, just saying that you are losing and pissing off a portion of your audience).

    • Venkarel July 30, 2017 8:17 am #

      Never mind my bad, one of them wanted me to sign in and now the others do not. Again my bad, and I am sorry, please ignore my previous comment.

  15. Blight July 30, 2017 8:18 am #

    So is this using the new FAQ?
    We’re the flocks the new point values and the flyer errata used?

    • Venkarel July 30, 2017 9:11 am #

      They were, you can actualy here Alan discuss this in the stream.

  16. C-Stock July 30, 2017 9:26 am #

    What happened to FLG’s prediction that Harlequins and Dark Eldar were the top armies in 8e?

    • Venkarel July 30, 2017 9:41 am #

      8th is still very young, FLG also said that it would take some time for the meta to stabilize. They might not be right (I do not think they are) but it is still waaaay too early to call this.

    • Joshua July 30, 2017 11:37 am #

      You also have to remember. They were playing with all the codex information. This is just indexes.

      • Sanchezsam2 July 30, 2017 6:02 pm #

        Wait was this confirmed they played with codex not indexs.
        Also flg said burna boys were great and it’s like the most useless unit in the ork index especially since kommandos are cheaper and take burnas for free.

        • Joshua July 30, 2017 7:56 pm #

          Yes they have said they had the codex rules.

        • Reecius July 31, 2017 3:48 pm #

          Of course we’ve played the codexes, haha, GW has mentioned the playtester group several times in the ongoing playtesting process. I’ve got lists I’m just waiting to show everyone until the books drop.

          And yes, Burnas worked great for me in the playtesting process, therefore I feel Burnas are quite good, and still do. Especially in a Trukk or Battlewagon. You may not (although, lol, the hyperbole in that statement is funny. Worthless unit, haha?) which is fine but so what, lol? My opinion is invalid? Should I never share what I think is good? Haha, this isn’t me trying to predict the competitive meta, it was frankie and I trying to share what we’d learned with all of you, that’s it. YMMV.

    • Peteypab July 30, 2017 1:12 pm #

      I predicted Ynnari to win the entire event. Go Adam!

      • Odras July 30, 2017 4:47 pm #

        I love the fact that he is doing well running a very similar list to the one I am running so far for 8th edition.

        Is his list legal though? He hasn’t paid for spiritstones on his hemlocks, and while there is some debate over whether or not you do have to pay for them I had been led to believe that you did have to pay.

        • Grunt July 30, 2017 8:45 pm #

          Looks to be wrong to me as well

    • Reecius July 30, 2017 4:32 pm #

      @C-stock Lol, what?

      • C-Stock July 31, 2017 9:13 am #

        Reece, in your long intro to 8e podcast you called DE and Harlequins as the top armies in 8th. Or like 1st and 3rd with like SM second.

        You did!


        • Reecius July 31, 2017 5:26 pm #

          Oh, lol, hahaha, that was not a meta prediction that was us answering a question about what armies we liked/thought were best off the cuff. In our play-testing experience and opinions, those are awesome armies and good players can and will win with them. We are not in the business of playing Nostradamus in regards to that type of thing. We just answered the question asked of us but our play-styles are our own and our experiences reflect that. What works in the meta at large or for each individual will vary. We also stated in that podcast that we were excited to see what the community did with it and where things went, we were not trying to predict anything.

  17. N.I.B. July 30, 2017 12:58 pm #

    Just watched InControls game. Girlyman is completely broken and needs to be looked at.

    • Reecius July 30, 2017 4:34 pm #

      He’s not broken, he’s just really, really good.

      • Blight July 30, 2017 7:17 pm #

        He just feels bad to play against I think. He’s such a huge force multiplier that it begins to feel like ultramarines with him auto hit and wound.

        • Dbiesto July 30, 2017 8:21 pm #

          I played 2 roboute lists. The first was a devastating cherub devastator gun line missile launchers and lascannons with a sicarian and dreadnought with assault cannon with a 50 conscript bubble.

          The second was dual terminus ultra, a land raider crusader, and a storm raven, with scouts and a Vindicare assasin for anti deep strike bubble.

          There is no way to specifically target him because he is a 8 wound model. A stormraven even though it flies can shield him. He deals mortal wounds in combat. After discussing with both opponents the two things to focus on are putting high defense units for objectives and suicide units to tie up/ damage the targets.

          It’s hard to really have an answer currently when compared to other auras/ psychic power buffs from other hqs required to pass a test when his is automatic. Certain armies have enough units to overrride the damage output going straight for mission but not many.

          The one thing both opponents mentioned was massive amounts of shooting/ fast assault units to tie up things and kill any flyers in the bubble. Or smite spam with deep striking melta style could possibly do enough damage with lucky rolls.

          Overall I played a 2x roboute style lists, a khorne berserker list, a wraithknight list, harlequin list, and Orks. It seems a lot more versatile for now, and overall it was a lot of fun (just going by to play with a fun take all comers list). I wish I could make the LVO but SoCal open I’m looking forward to game in.

      • Venkarel July 30, 2017 8:42 pm #

        I disagree Reece at his current point cost Girlyman is ridicules. He should be 500 points. He absolutely warps the game, maybe breaks it. I mean do the math, he turns a BS 3+ bolter into hitting 88% of the time and wounding anything from T5-T7 at 55%. That makes a stormbolter better in many way than an autocannon (point for point). He turn a heavy bolter into a gun that is better than a Lascannon, in most ways (point for point). Not to mention his mobility increase, his moral increase, his character keyword combined with less than 10 wounds, his 3++, he gets back up (with the ability to CP the roll) and his melee ability.

      • Ujayim July 31, 2017 3:08 am #

        Guilliman feels bad to play against = fine
        Brimstone horrors are annoying, as are conscripts = omg problem units

        Idk man, people aren’t a huge fan of Guilliman.

        • Reecius July 31, 2017 5:32 pm #

          You’re simplifying the argument a great deal, but I get it.

          Wait for the game to develop a bit. There are things coming (some very soon) that will change the communities perception on these things in short order, IMO.

      • crispy86 July 31, 2017 4:26 pm #

        I like that he’s good, he’s a primarch. It should feel hard to overcome him. I think good playtesting in the case of the savage girlyman

        • Venkarel July 31, 2017 5:41 pm #

          I am fine with him being really really good, he is just undercost for the his effect on the game. I think around 500 (the cost of a Knight) is reasonable.

  18. dustin lane July 30, 2017 8:41 pm #

    hey reecius my list only had 4 commanders the rest were normal crisis and forge world suits.

  19. Grunt July 30, 2017 8:44 pm #

    #6 list is over points. Hemlocks are 221 not 211 and he has 2 of them

    • Venkarel July 30, 2017 9:03 pm #

      I still have not got a rock solid answer to having to buy gear not detailed in the in upper section that lists the model original gear, nor in the wargear options section. For example an Autarch, his forceshield is listed under abilities, so is it wargear, do you have to pay for it? The same applies to the Hemlock.

      • Odras July 30, 2017 10:10 pm #

        The way I see it is that looking at just the main rule book and the xenos 1 index there is nothing that indicates that you have to pay for abilities.

        If you look at the imperial 1 index though and the combat shield ability of the company champion, the FAQ there states that you need to pay for that, which to me indicates that you do need to pay for the spirit stones and forceshield on the hemlock and Autach.

        Although by the rules as they currently are, nothing indicates that he does have to pay for the spirit stones and so I would argue that his list is not illegal, even if it will eventually be FAQed so that he does.

        For a few weeks I have been trying to get an answer to this exact question, and no where can I find a definitive answer. The battle reports that Reece does with his Ynnari on this website sometimes pay for the forceshield and sometimes don’t. The ETC lists that have been published do pay for spiritstones on the hemlocks, and now Adam’s list seems to have got through without anyone questioning the cost of the hemlocks so I am still searching for a definitive answer to this.

        • Reecius July 31, 2017 5:33 pm #

          Yeah, it is unclear. I think you do pay for them but we don’t know definitively, yet. We will get one shortly, though.

      • Reecius July 31, 2017 4:11 pm #

        It’s not clear at this point, agreee.

      • Reecius July 31, 2017 5:33 pm #

        We’ll find out, but yeah, I honestly don’t know, either.

    • Reecius July 31, 2017 5:34 pm #

      It is not clear if you pay for them or not. So, it we told him he was good to go until we get an answer on that one from GW.

      • Odras July 31, 2017 8:51 pm #

        Thanks for the clarification, looking forward to an answer from GW.

        With the issues that have been there in the past with list errors, it is fantastic to see someone doing the right thing beforehand, good work Adam!

        • Reecius August 1, 2017 3:07 pm #

          Yeah, agreed on all counts =)

  20. Cephalobeard July 31, 2017 4:47 am #

    Only one Daemon player in top 8, and only 2 Daemon players making top 18 makes me feel somewhat vindicated in my opinion that people are whining about problems that don’t exist. IE, Horrors, etc.

    That opinion is Biased, but I feel we were just shown some of the best of the best players, and they fought through what everyone claims to be “problem units” and showed a variety of lists, with no consistent list being shwon as an obvious choice over the others. Seems balanced to me.

    • Threllen July 31, 2017 6:04 am #

      You do still have to buy enough horrors to make one of the problematic lists. Nobody had 300 horrors sitting around before this edition. And, given the number of stuff that has been hotfixed and nerfed, I know I’m not leaping out and buying 20+ more boxes of brims when two weeks from now GW could easily double their price and kill the list.

      • Cephalobeard July 31, 2017 6:18 am #

        Exactly. The Threat of them doing that is, potentially, enough of a deterrent that MOST PEOPLE won’t be doing that. We haven’t seen people produce 300+ actual GW Horrors, and I’m not purchasing more than 100 of them, either.

        My point is that despite people complaining, and even Reece/Frankie on the podcast calling out that unit specifically, it was a very diverse top 8/16/24/etc and no one unit drastically dominated things, INCLUDING horrors which only made two total lists in the top 18.

        • Threllen July 31, 2017 7:42 am #

          I still think they were right to call out that unit (brims) because it is beyond absurd right now. It’s just a corner case where in order to make it absurd you need to bring a couple hundred of them to the table. And it’s a model that is new and is not exactly a ‘centerpiece’ or ‘iconic’ in any way. Stormravens OP as can be? Half the playerbase owns imperium armies and a bunch of those players probably already have 1 or 2 of them. So it’s not that hard to get a couple more and win some tournaments before they’re inevitably nerfed.

          But you would need to spend between $500 – $1,000 to buy the number of brims that really make them amazing. That’s the barrier that’s currently keeping too many of them from showing up. But I don’t think that makes the complaints about how good they are any less founded or any less relevant. Just because they’re stuck behind a pay wall doesn’t mean they shouldn’t still be toned down.

          But other than the issue brims present when actually taken in sufficient numbers, I do think there is a great variety in lists right now. Not sure if that’s because everything is actually balanced or if that’s because it’s too early for people to figure out the real OP comboes, but it’s much more encouraging than 7th!

          • Cephalobeard July 31, 2017 7:58 am

            BAO Top lists seem to indicate it’s not correct, though, because they didn’t dominate the top lists. If anything, they’re a Perception issue like Tau was in 7th Edition. They APPEAR strongly, and perform well, however it ends up being more medium-medium high with placing, than consistent owning.

          • Subclavian Steel July 31, 2017 11:04 am

            Brims are probably too good for their points, but they don’t exist in a vacuum. When you factor in the other tools chaos has to support the brims, it doesn’t come out to game breaking lists. If there was enough other things that were good for chaos, then you would see more of this.

        • Reecius July 31, 2017 5:30 pm #

          Well, remember, the BAO is not definitive of the meta or anything, just an indicator of where we’re at, now. And the top Daemon Players did have Brims FWIW, but I didn’t see anything taking absolutely loads of them, just enough for board control which is what they’re there for.

          But yes, it was very diverse in the top which is awesome =)

  21. Threllen July 31, 2017 6:05 am #

    Not sure the list ended up, but shoutout to Don who constantly complains about how terrible whirlwinds must be. Yet somehow they ended up in this top 15 chart 😉

  22. Requizen July 31, 2017 6:46 am #

    Nice to see Guard up in the top now. I’ve been using Scions since 7th and for them to finally be good (and, after the nerf, fairly balanced) is quite nice.

  23. Don Tomaso July 31, 2017 7:29 am #

    Well yes I am intrigued over how da f a whirlwind managed to end up in the top 15 lists.

    MY guess is luck in that it faced the exact thing is can actually earn back points on because a 100p tank that kills 3 guardsmen per turn IS utter crap no matter how you desperately try and polish the turd.
    Besides, bear in mind that 100% of all the things I complained about being overpriced in the imp codex were in fact cost lowered in the final codex. How you like them apples?

    There are still point cost insanities that will n e v e r ever see some units on a tournament table and that is a bit sad but you cant get it all.

    Now 8ed tournies are far better and more varied then the 7ed manure we suffered and the quick response from gw regardign cleaning out the trash that got through (like birdies and stormraven spam) is very welcome. Lets await an even better tournament scene if/after brims and conscripts are toned down.

    • Threllen July 31, 2017 7:45 am #

      Keep in mind this tournament didn’t include the new codex so this person did well playing Whirlwinds straight out of the index. Also if all they got in the new codex was a slight points decrease, hard to say that proves your point that they are “complete utter crap.”

      Sure, they were probably slightly overcosted in the index. I don’t disagree with that point. But there’s a long way inbetween that and “so terrible they’ll never be taken.”

  24. mortetvie July 31, 2017 10:17 am #

    Hey all, this is Adam who played the Ynnari list that made 5th place. Just to clarify, before the event and on the BAO page I specifically asked the question “[d]oes the Hemlock Wraithfighter have to pay for Spirit Stones?” To which Reece replied “Many abilities like that are free.” Therefore I was operating under the understanding that I did not have to pay for the Spirit Stones.

    However, going forward I will just add points in for any ability that is also a wargear option so as to avoid such confusion or disagreement and perhaps it would be prudent for everyone else to do the same. Also, honestly, given how tough the meta/competition was, people usually focused down the Hemlocks so fast with their Plasma/Fusion commander drops so I will likely just drop them from my lists going forward until maybe the Eldar codex proper comes out-going to add more wraithguard until then =).

    • David Alastair Hayden July 31, 2017 10:51 am #

      I was considering the Hemlock for my Wraith Ynnari force but have held off because so far my Crimaon Hunter seems to be nothing more than an expensive distraction.

      • mortetvie July 31, 2017 10:55 am #

        I can say that the Hemlock was REALLY good in situations where it could get to the backfield where there was little to nothing that can meaningfully deal with the Yncarne and kill a weak unit to bring the Yncarne in-or to have the Hemlock die horribly on opponent’s turn and bring down the Yncarne then so that I could wreck havoc on my next turn.

        As cute as that strategy is, though, I still think it is better to bring more boots on the ground for objectives.

    • Odras July 31, 2017 3:11 pm #

      Hi Adam, I had originally thought the same thing as far as abilities being free before I was told that I should pay for them. Congratulations on coming 5th, it was awesome to see someone with a similar list to what I have been running do so well.

      I would be interested to hear your thoughts on your different match-ups and how you felt your different units performed. I am surprised to hear that the Hemlocks were not great for you. I am also interested in your thoughts on when to best bring the Yncarne in.

      • mortetvie August 1, 2017 11:16 am #

        Hey Odras, yeah, was confusing on abilities being paid for or not, etc. Maybe Games Workshop will lower the points of the Hemlock by 10 points in the codex, who knows?

        Anyway, as far as how the Hemlocks went… They were great for hitting targets backfield and bringing in the Yncarne in locations the opponent may not otherwise have a lot of dangerous models. Their damage output averaged 4 shots per and the damage 2 was nice but overall, even with smite, their damage output was not as high as I would have liked.

        Furthermore, they usually were the first thing anyone went for and so I tended to lose one or both of them right off the bat.

        Game one, I lost one to a Tau hammerhead list right off and the other didn’t last too much longer or do enough damage.

        Game two, I lost both right off to a flyer spam list that just came into me and shot them dead.

        Game three, they were great because I was playing against Genestealer Cults who lacked any means of dealing with the flyers so I was able to pop his backfield biovores and various units, bringing in the Yncarne and so on.

        Game four, I lost maybe one early on to a Tau player and the second one just flew around doing random damage but not enough to really make it worthwhile.

        Game five, they lasted longer than they should have as I got lucky denying some powers and making clutch Spirit Stone saves-they helped bring down Magnus but I didn’t need them to do so.

        Game six, they killed some stuff early on then died horribly to strong IG shooting…

        Overall, they were an ok distraction unit but in every game I SORELY missed having another unit of 5 Wraithblades with swords in a 4th serpent and some warlocks. Hemlocks are GREAT but not worth sacrificing the efficiency of your overall army for, especially when the opponent can and will dedicate resources to taking them out.

        With that said, Wave Serpents are very strong given the serpent shield mechanic against the current meta of 2 damage plasma spam and earthshaker batteries =).

      • Odras August 2, 2017 5:36 am #

        Thanks very much for the breakdown.

    • Tony Tastey August 17, 2017 11:59 am #

      Hey Adam! I was quite inspired by your list and I was wondering if you could give some additional tactical insights on piloting it.

      How do you maximize Strength from Death activations on such short ranged weapons? Did you ever find yourself without an in-range target for a 2nd round of shooting from the D-Scythes?

      Do you typically charge with the Wraithguard after shooting and take advantage of their ability to fall back and still shoot?

      With such a small number units, did you ever have issues grabbing objectives, controlling the board or dealing with high model count armies?

  25. Don Tomaso July 31, 2017 11:16 am #


    Well “maybe” the whirlwind actually performed better then its naked stats say it should because of guilliman.
    Hardly makes the turd more polished now does it.

    The “utter crap” is not meant as a dead on truth and you know it. Even a 100 point laspistol on a 50 point grot is NOT technically speaking “utter crap” since it will probably earn back 1-2 points before the grot dies (as will the 100p whirlwind facing a 3-point-a-piece conscript horde) but this is not the point..and again, you know this.

    That the units I pointed out being absurdly overcosted in fact did get a point reduction is relevant because the level of said reductions is not since it is simply a pointer towards geedubs some times overly careful nature. Look at the drop pod for example, I too said it is utter crap (and it is) and I feel sorry for the suckers that spent money and time painting up 10-pod armies that now collect dust because the pod is nerfed not to but through the ground while being point costed by a drunken blindfolded baboon. Naturally they wont lower it down to say 50 points but do it in smaller increments.

    As for “utter crap” units that are so bad (over priced) they are “practically” never used we can include both the whirlwind here as well as for example LoTD. A nice looking miniature range that because of imbecile playtesting will never in a hundred years be used other then in I-want-to-loose fluff games.

    Take the above example, during all my gaming and participation in other peoples gaming over the editions ever since LoTD came out I have seen exactly one game with a squad of them being used and that was because pure desperation thanks to broken serpents in a broken eldar codex that forced their usage. Do you see them more frequent now days? No?
    Ask yourself..why? Surely as with everything else in the codex being “sooo strong” tournaments ought to be swimming in all these superbeefy things like small blast weapons and flamers. No? Why is that?

    Simple logic dude..simple logic.

    How about footslogging assault cents with missile weapons and meltas? How much would this squad cost? How would its survivability stack up when even a single model lost from a lousy lascannon shot will cost you how many points again?

    How many of these squads will we EVER see on the table you think with these idiotic point costs vs earning potential vs staying power?

    Give them a LR you might say? Ok, how much is a LR then? 60 point redeemer sponsons that only earn their points back from 8´away om a frame that degrades its movement? Were the people that put point values on this crap sober?
    Going back..spending half your army points in two units in an edition swimming with lascannons and priding itself on the death of deathstars..will we ever see that combo with these upgrades on ANY table?

    My point is instead of removing units like libbies on bikes from the codex gw nevertheless stuffed it brimful of options that are simply put to idiotic to EVER be taken so whats the point? Choice for the sake of choice?
    If I include a 5 man grot unit armed with autopistols at 200 points in the ork codex will anyone ever take that?

    But I digress, in a year from now given gws recent track record of trying to fix “broken” things maybe the community will start noticing that certain things are never ever taken and said things will thus slowly get small points corrections.
    I for one would simply love to see everything usable and being taken even by competitive players in competitive environments, 8ed tournaments are already far better then the stale tau-gaydar-gravspam shit we had in 7th and YES we have partially these playtesters to thank for 8th BUT they are like we all only human and there are still errors so why not make this edition even better?

    • Kevin Lantz July 31, 2017 3:50 pm #

      if all you want to do is consider the most likely to win options, most codexes can probably throw out a few units and you’ll never notice…

  26. Don Tomaso July 31, 2017 5:58 pm #

    There is a difference between must-win-unit choices and can-take-most units and still not auto loose.

    This balance is really not that hard to if not achieve then get closer to, it is in its most simple form merely a question about more selective point pricing.

    Now we have a codex whos balance is ruled by a flat wargear cost that doesnt take into account the platform it is combined with.

    Thus a 25p lascannon on a single tac marine with cheap casualty soakers around it will never be balanced unit-wise vs the same 25p lascannon taken on a very easy degradable predator tank vs the same 25p lascannon taken twice on a non casualty soaked centurion model.
    Ask yourself, will you ever use for example lascents with the insane point pricing vs survivability they have?

    Ergo: some units and unit loadouts will thus “never” or practically never ever be taken.

    Mending this would requite a far less lazy approach in the wargear sections and a far more active debate regarding unit balancing with playtesting people that we have today.
    Now there is basically no such debate as everything is instantly shut down as clueless whining by hordes of fanboys that by default think everything is oh so fine and pointed out flaws are just figures of bitter imagination despite the fact that said flaws were in fact covered in codex point adjustments albeit just by careful steps as they should.

    An example of different outcomes from this could be the current vs future grey knight terminators. Nobody is debating it but everybody into gk knows gkt suck ass, players want to use them but after a few tryouts refuse to touch that garbage and instead of having a big friendly debate on why and how this particular unit could be altered in order for people to actively wanting to take them in more competitive environments so that a solid base for future changes will be seen in the upcoming codex we instead do not mention anything about this, call the person that pointed this out for a clueless whining idiot and simply roll the dice hoping gw on their own will alter the unit in hopefully the right direction instead of passing it over or overnerfing/overbuffing it.


    Lastly I would like some clarification regarding missing units/wargear from the SM codex.
    Options like razorback heavy flame turrets are removed while gw says missing units that exist in previous codexes can still be used but what then of owerwritten unit datasheets with wargear options missing?

    LoTD DO have a model range so why are they missing?
    Chaplain on bike has or had a model so why remove it?
    Librarian on bike..will there ever be a model for this? Yes I know you can use the old entry but then it will never be mended should it require it.

    I dont think I´m alone in this where actual effort, time and money have been invested into units or wargear/conversions that is now gone. I know the libby on bike example is still usable but what about for example razorback flame turrets?

    To give a more extreme example imagine my surprise regarding the missing libbie bikers before I read that you can still use them from the previous codex when I bought FW models and then spent literally months of custom sculpting and converting 4 bike librarians from scratch with custom sculpted psychic hoods, torsos, etc and one of a time force weapons on some of them and I see no bike libbies mentioned in the codex. lol
    That was very fun until I by accident happen across some info about usable older entries.

    Oh well..
    So now I have bought a bucket full of special items from FW in order to redo them with the same care as my librarians into 10 razorback heavy flamer turrets and I still cant tell if this option will ever come back or be allowed.
    Fun? No. A waste of my money and time that I could put into converting/sculpting/painting something else that I know I at least can use on the tabletop later on in the future.

    For fun here are a few WIP pics of what I am talking about investment-wise (money, time, effort) and maybe you can understand a little better why I am pissed of about uncertain things like the razor turrets (there are more but I dont want to bring them up here) , what is done is done but if would be nice if I got the information about their removal before I spent a lot of money on special model parts that now lie collecting dust.
    If anyone has a link to information that clearly sorts these things out then do let me know about it.

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