Hoooo nelly, these are going to cause some waves. And yes, these do take effect immediately so plan on using them for BAO and other events coming up unless your T.O. specifically says otherwise.
Read the original post, here.
You REALLY want to read this is you take lots of flyers in your army!
How do you all feel about these changes?
Looks like the community might not need to act on storm raven spam with the new change to sudden death.
Razorwing Flocks also became more expensive
They are fairly costed now, yes.
And this certainly mitigates Flyers, doesn’t it? There are ways around I think but it makes using them a lot riskier.
I think this eliminates a lot of flyer spam but it’s not like stormravens any worse at what they did. You’re still going to see a couple in many lists. This change and the fact chapter tactics generally don’t effect vehicles will cut down on flyer spam a lot.
That is the hope =)
Stormravens are still a bargain in relation with their firepower/toughness/cost. They should be at least as expensive as land raiders to be fair.
Still, it’s a big change, and it came pretty faster than spected. I think the stormraven spam is still not death, but at least you can play against it and have chances to table the enemy before being tabled.
Flocks needed a point increase for sure.
I could be wrong here, but I feel that 14pts/flock is too many points. Especially when you want a 60pt character to keep the flock from destroying itself due to having a crappy Ld4.
I think it is quite fair for what you get and helps to make it less appealing to take armies of them.
Comparing with other swarms, 14 looks fair. They are faster, with double attacks and 4 W instead of 3, in exchange of 1S and 1T.
They are often immune to moral because the Yncarne or you want them to die thus triggering the Yncarne coming onto the board.
Tau Shield Drones now bounce Saviour Protocol mortal wounds on 5+, becoming no longer completely useless. Sun Shark Bomber drones get their second ion rifle restored. Monolith BS buffed to 3+ base.
It’s a good time to be a Games Workshop hobbyist =)
GW just screwed over flyer cheese and I think a lot of players are fine with it. But what if a unit is embarked in a flyer? Do you have to kill that flyer and then the unit inside to table them? People will argue the way it is written because of the fortification part in the same statement.
Units in transports don’t count as being on the table for any game effect is what they have said before so…
If all you have on the table are flyers, you lose.
Keep in mind that this is after the first battle turn so you can start with just flyers on the table.
Well, I can’t really come up with a list that can kill Gulliman hiding behind a line of stormravens before those stormravens have crippled the opponent, so I don’t really see how this makes them much weaker.
That is one work around, yes, unfortunately. Missions will probably have to incorporate ways to incentivize players to not spam.
One way Infinity does this is by requiring their equivalent of a battlefield role to complete objectives. E.g., one mission would require Troops to win, another Fast Attack, and so on. You literally can’t when on mission if you don’t have some of each battlefield role.
Maybe make it to were Flyers / Vehicles and HQs cannot contest objectives or hold objectives.
Kills a lot of spam lists.
“Units with the flyer battlefield role do not prevent the opponent from targeting characters.”
That would be the easiest fix ever and something that should have been instituted in the game from day 1. Why on earth was a stormraven ever able to block someone from shooting a character on the ground?
I had a similar idea, haha
I like it. It fixes the problem and, at the same time, is fluffy.
Step 1: Swarmlord in a Pod
Step 2: Charge Robute.
Step 4: Profit
step 3: Roboute wins because 3+ invul is really good with a reroll.
step 4: Profit (for ultramarines player)
Didn’t that exact scenario happen in one of the FLG battle reports? This assume that the flier player doesn’t just have a character that can keep up and stay inside all the flier bases.
if the ravens are sitting around gulliman then they arent getting angles on your backline units.
play a thing like Magnus and rip apart Gaylimann 🙂
I’m kinda salty over the ynnari change since it means I need to rework how I was planning to build a list. But it’s overall for the better.
Yeah, sucks when your list gets messed up but as you said, these are positive changes.
I’m wondering how your list was going to work since none of the changes are affecting my Ynnari list. I have to make Yvraine my warlord now instead of my Wraithseer, but it doesn’t change my list.
Being forced to take a named character in order to field the faction is a pretty big change. A lot of Ynnari lists (including Reece’s) didn’t include any of the three unique characters.
When you put it that way, I guess 132 points required for Yvraine does make a pretty big change. I’m assuming Visarch is cheaper, can’t remember, and that no one really wants to take just him, or him at all.
Nah, he’s actually more expensive at 140pts. (And also kinda a trash fire, even with the changes.) Yvraine and the Yncarne aren’t at all bad, it’s just awkward that you HAVE to field them in order to use them at all. It’d be like if every single Space Marine list was required to bring Marneus Calgar in order to be legal- it’s not that he’s a bad guy, just that not every single list under the sun necessarily wants him.
Am I misinterpreting it, or does it now REQUIRE that you have Yvraine/Visarch/Yncarne (as your Warlord, no less) to run an Ynnari army?
If it IS the case: does this seem unnecessary to anyone else?
It doesn’t really matter to me personally since I almost always run Yvraine, but still ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Also, they added a Forceshield to the Visarch. Since his points profile says “Points per Model (Including wargear)” is 141, does this mean he doesn’t have to pay for it?
That is correct. Named HQs are generally in the “includes wargear” section so they don’t have to pay for any wargear. Nice free little buff for him.
Yes that’s right you need one of the triumvirate as your warlord to make the force Ynnari
I kind of like it. Forces you to actually make an important choice in list building. Instead of just looking at your units and going “hmm, I’ll choose craftworlds/ynnari based on which bonus I think is stronger.”
Well, I mean, that choice right there is actually an important decision because Ynnari and Craftworlds actually play pretty differently than each other.
But realistically, no one was bringing a Craftworlds army because they’re just not very good. Strength from Death is way better than Battle Focus.
I guess I meant it more along the lines that it forces you to really think about whether you want to dedicate yourself to being Ynnari or not. If there is no cost to choosing Ynnari (which was the case before this FAQ) then the choice becomes very simple – “Is Battle Focus more OP or is Strength from Death?” And 9 times out of 10, tournament players are just going to pick the one they feel is stronger.
Now that you have to actually take a Ynnari HQ you have to decide for yourself whether you think the stronger Strength from Death is worth actually taking a Ynnari-themed army or not.
Interesting that they tried to hit some of the imbalance headaches in the FAQ (razorwing flocks, flyers) but they did nothing about Horrors. Brims should be 4pts minimum in my opinion…
Well we’re just over a month into a new edition with no codex’s released yet and already come this far, good sign for a fix not too far off 🙂
Don’t worry, they are going to wait until more of those new brimstone boxes sell then strike with the nerf bat.
Who actually uses GW Brims, though? lol
1. White Dwarf
2. Eric Johnson III, a middling player who lives in Virginia and plays Space Marines. Still hasn’t learned he can’t summon daemons in 8th.
that’s it, the complete list.
I do. All 80 of them are completely legitimate.
So it’s your fault then!
They should make blue and brim horrors only available by splitying from pinks, not as a standalone unit. Then you are forced to pay for the pinks and blues etc.
You then also create $100+ Troop choices. Lol
So the Yncarne can now it’s it’s strength from death ability right?
I have a Forgeworld typo question that wasn’t adressed:
Zarakynel has a choice between 2 weapons like Keeper of Secrets. The sword is always better than the claws in both situations. However the claws for Keeper of Secrets has “bonus D3 attacks from this weapon after all attacks”. I have a feeling this was forgotten from the Zarakynel rules because without this she does pretty much the same amount of damage as a regular Keeper of Secrets and costs twice as much AND no one in their right mind would ever choose the claws when fighting.
Forge World does their stuff separately
It’s rather annoying because they refuse to write similar units in line with the GW rules so you end up with weird differences between units that should be similar, but that’s how it is.
To be fair the indexs and FAQs have brought it all together a lot more, like the FW shield drones getting the new 5+ ignore wound/mortal wound mechanic FAQd in before this main GW one. Given the pace of release I think of enough people ask it on Facebook it’ll probably get an answer in the not too distant future.
They’re a lot more similar now than they were in the past.
Good that they are speedy with FAQs. Not sure on other books, but as a marine player i was hoping on more point adjustments. Bobby G is too cheap, predators are still pointless to take. Termines are aweful (or is it just me?) Razorbacks could be toned down a bit? Heavy weapon teams and manticores could cost a bit more. Overall very happy with 8th, but the internal balance in atleast in AM and Astrartes book is still lacking. Same with bikes, they are a bit expensive. I might be wrong on some of this, but that is my general impression.
They will get there. It’s amazing what they’ve done so far compared to this point in 7th. Truly amazing.
Predators are AWESOME, lol. For Marines the Devs with Banners and such can be arguably more appealing but Predators are great.
Bobby G is a bit much though, agreed.
Same with Baal Pred, hard to compete with 2 assbacks.
I’m with you on this one. A pred with a twin lascannon and two lascannon sponsons is actually slightly less expensive than a devastator squad using 4 lascannons. And the pred has much higher toughness and double the wounds. Obviously you can go back and forth on other specifics such as the devs being able to utilize cover and being more resilient to multi-damage attacks, but I think it seems pretty fair to me. Especially if you’re rocking a couple preds with a techpriest to heal them. They can be pretty strong.
Why take a pred over 2 las razors?
I’ve had a lot of good results with Terminators. Don’t trust my own skills enough to vouch for them being top tier or anything but a couple units or unit of 10 is a big super tough 20 wound 2+ save block that teleports in and just screams “deal with me or else”.
They’re not all star damage dealers (though they certainly ain’t bad, particularly melee ones if you can get them in) but they’re tough enough and have a big enough footprint that they draw attention and zone an area.
Chaos Termis are pretty awesome damage dealers now that their combis work all game. A drop of 3 can’t be ignored, and is reasonably priced.
Obliterators… well, they are models I have.
I am intrigued by predators in the new book. 3 of them with stormbolters, hk missile, and heavy bolters is 170-180pts. For 1 cp they all get kill shot which adds 1 to the wound rolls and damage against vehicles and big creatures. That means heavy bolters are wounding vehicles on a 4+ and doing 2 damage each. The predator Cannon is wounding most vehicles on a 3+ and doing 4 damage with each shot. The key is to have dakka predators because they already work good against massed infantry and the kill shot cp turns them into vehicle killers for a turn.
Manticorea could go up 15-20 points and be pretty fair, and to make the basilisk a reasonable alternative selection for ~40-45 less points
Don’t agree on HW squads though, they are cheap but they are 3x 2 wound T3 5+ save models, they die really easily
I really love the change to flyers. It’s an elegant fix that doesn’t invalidate any lists, but makes them very risky to play. The flyer spam lists made a lot of combat armies non-competitive, so I think this is really good for the meta and the health of the game. I think we’ll go back to seeing 1-2 in a list, which is totally manageable.
That is the hope.
The writing is on the wall. Chase the meta at your own risk. GW isn’t afraid anymore to fix overpowered units and unfun combos.
Yup =)
I’m amazed at how slowly some people are picking up on this. It’s clear that they’re going to maintain the game’s balance as best as possible. This isn’t 7th edition.
In 8th, if it seems *too* cheesy, then it is, and it won’t last.
Exactly. We keep saying this, lol.
Huh …. Solitaire now has the [MASQUE] keyword, so I can put him in a Starweaver, and he’s affected by the Troupe Master and Shadowseers aura effects. Cool!
This is great for the Solitaire. He was already an awesome model, and is now even stronger. Being able to shave 1 unit-drop during deployment by storing him in a transport is also nice (though he really doesn’t need the transport to get around the table).
Very cool =)
now we should wait for brims nerf and we can play a better game, unsure btw about cost increase of gsc purestrains, 15pts each looks like bit much, but ok is fair.
The Cult Ambush rule is certainly worth some points, I agree.
They pay 3 pts per model for Cult Ambush. Probably a point too much IMO.
Agreed, 14 would be fair, but at 10 they were extremely cheap. As a ‘nid player, I was taking mis GS from the cult data because it looked kinda stupid to pay 2 extra points with no ambush.
Yeah, we are talking about 1 point per model, at most 2. I’m not sure why they addressed this, but it isn’t changing much for me.
I’m hoping they FAQ AM Sergeants and Veteran Sergeants to be able to take lasguns like Elysians and Kriegers. I hate having one odd weapon type in the unit.
It’s silly, but it would please my OCD. lol.
That’s been bugging me since they first took away the option for Sarges to have lasguns in 5th Ed. I had to hunt up and convert so many metal dudes to have legal Sgts that actually fit with my Army.
Yeah, it’s a pretty silly thing–I think it’s just to keep things consistent with the Infantry Squad box? If so, I think that’s really dumb. It’s not like it would be hard to convert the sergeants to lasguns.
Looks like soul grinder still hits in 5+ if they move ouch…I thought that horrible shooting units for that many points would at least get a point reduction/ more attacks. 235 points is a lot for a mediocre walker
MONOLITH BUFFS
MAKE NECRONS GREAT AGAIN
At 381 points (more than Bobby G), the save at normal SM troop of 3+ save with no invuln and firepower below what get for the points elsewhere…. you still will never see them in a list outside of Narrative Play. I think we can only hope that a codex will bring the price down or add some rules that make them worth taking.
Crossing my fingers.
Hey Reece
What about the marauder destroyer or manta. It doesnt fill a flyer slot but a Super Heavy slot.
Im guessing the sudden death rules don’t apply.
Also Pask no longer orders himself…..oh well!
I don’t think Manta Spam is likely to be a thing to worry about any time soon.
Let GW know if it does start to dominate the tournament scene.
Also, Monstrous creatures don’t get hit, or jump infantry, or Harridans, Thunderhawk Gunships… I like how they went about this change, personally.
But my Heldrake spam list is going to suck now. Well, like it sucked before 😉 Heldrakes- worse than a predator in every way. Also- worse than a Helbrute, and…
You are correct – because they are super-heavies they wouldn’t count towards this rule as it is currently written. But the Manta is well over the points you get for an entire tournament army so I don’t think it matters since you won’t see the thing in any game other than massive apoc games.
On the other hand the marauder destroyer is pretty ridiculously strong for its point value in my opinion.
I agree about the Marauder. Im going to try running one. After the shadowsword and preator. Im now over random shots, and never being able to move because they suffer -1.
at 146 base pts (Before weapons) The marauder is actually about the same cost as a russ. With more wounds, higher mobility, better survivability.
Also it’s a pretty cool model. A nice option for a superheavy for guard.
Yeah the 146 base cost for Marauder is beyond incredibly undercosted. That’s barely more than a predator and it doesn’t suffer penalty for moving and shooting, it has hard to hit, and it has a ton of wounds.
I could easily see it being every bit as OP as a stormraven even if it is typical guard BS4+
146 for the base chassis, but then a metric assload more for all the weapons it’s kitted with. And as an oversized flyer, maneuvering for it is actually a bit of a trick, especially as it goes down in wounds.
I don’t think you’re gonna see Marauders tearing up the tournament scene anytime soon.
That is such an eloquent and amazing way to deal with the Stormraven spam list. They single handedly nefred that list without nerfing the Stormraven. I’m super impressed with the new GW.
With the re-wording of the re-roll ruling – does this affect stratagems too?
I mean if I fail a charge and have a re-roll I have to roll both dice, that is good, but what if I want to use a stratagem to re-roll one of the dice, can this be done still?
The FAQ question only pertains to rules that allow you re-roll an entire result. AKA when something says “re-roll failed charges” that means you have to re-roll both the dice.
The 1CP stratagem, on the other hand, specifies that you re-roll *a single die.* So it’s not affected by the FAQ.
With the inevitable nerfing of Brimstones, I genuinely hope the cost of Pinks is reduced. You need to give incentive to actually use split if you’re going to force the mechanic.
Tzeentch arm is a really bad army caried by a few broken units. Hope the rest get buffed with the broken unit nerf or the army might become unplayable
This seems to be the story for several armies. I hope they they make the broken units more expensive like brims, conscripts, ork boys, guiliman, etc. However, then they should use those as a baseline and adjust everything in the codex based on them(maybe not guiliman but certainly troops).
If it takes x amount of points of boys to do 1 wound to T8, 2+, lets make it take some percentage of that to do a wound to that with a meganob etc.
As an ork player it would be sad to lose my one broken unit but if the game is balanced then the better player wins and I rarely feel like I lost the game because I’m a worse player so hopefully that would happen even less after an adjustment like that.
Ok guys I figure we got some rules lawyers in here and we are have a big dispute at my local club on how the knights feet work does it come up to getting 12 attacks or 4 attacks that each roll 3 dice to hit but still only getting one attack
Thanks in advance