Chapter Tactics #36: State of the 8th Edition Meta and BAO Predictions

Chapter Tactics is a 40k podcast which focuses on promoting better tactical play and situational awareness across all variations of the game. Today PeteyPab and the best Space Marine player in last year’s ITC season Thomas Hegstrom Oakey delve into the Imperium 1 Index again and cover Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Blood Angels 

QOTD: Does Anyone Even Pay Attention to These?

Show Notes:

  • Click here for the ETC lists.
  • Click here for Black Blow Fly’s interview with Aaron Aelong.
  • Chapter Tactics is back! With Weekly episodes and a lot of tactical insight, this is your place for all things 40k in 8th edition.
  • Check out the last episode of Chapter Tactics here. Or, click here for a link to a full archive of all of my episodes.
  • Want more tactical information about the new edition? Check out our 8th Edition article archive to help get a leg up on the competition!

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About Petey Pab

Aspiring 40k analyst, tournament reporter and Ultramarines enthusiast, Petey Pab only seeks to gather more knowledge about the game of 40k and share it with as many people as he can in order to unite both hobbyists and gamers. We are, after all, two sides of the same coin.

21 Responses to “Chapter Tactics #36: State of the 8th Edition Meta and BAO Predictions”

  1. Cilithan July 23, 2017 2:06 am #

    I love competitive gaming (which is why I’m on FLG), but the ETC lists do make me feel like something should change in 40k tournaments. Competitive gaming should be about finding the best general through sizzling confrontaties. This is just advanced rock-paper-scissors and FotM list copying. Reigning in Brimstone/Razorwing/Stormraven isn’t the sollution.I think a sweeping rule like ‘no unit-selection can be used more than twice’ may be waranted at this point. The spam is starting to hurt my delicate eyes and as said, I’m not one to shy from a challenge…

    • Coti July 23, 2017 6:28 am #

      That hurts small factions with not much choice a lot more than big ones like Space Marines.

    • AbusePuppy July 23, 2017 9:29 am #

      ETC isn’t really a very good indicator of the sorts of lists that will win other tournaments, though. Never has been.

    • Kartr_Kana July 24, 2017 12:09 pm #

      “Highlander” style formats are terribly unfluffy and hyperrestrictive and usually favor one faction which has more options or more better options than the rest.

  2. Keya July 23, 2017 3:36 am #

    I couldn’t agree with Cillithan more. I remember attending a Highlander format tournament in early 2016 and watching Canadian player, and LVO third place finalist Dan Platt, bring a very eclectic daemons list that incorporated Daemons from all 4 chaos gods and included heralds,fleshpunds, plague drones, daemonettes, pink horrors, fareweaver etc, It was exciting to see a player bring a unique and unconventional list that required experience and skill and played with grace and speed. Dan took first in that tournament. It wasn’t spammy and a nice example of list building. I think moving forward the Highlander format or something similar is what’s needed. As a long time tournament player I have no desire to cheese it up. I spoke recently with another competative tournament player who said his goal is to bring the cheesiest list and play it better than other players with cheesy lists in order to win. At least he admits it but Warhammer, even at the competative level needs to be not just about winning but winning in style. It disappoints me to think in our local scene players will now look at the top ATC and ETC list and recreate them in order to crush the competition.

    • AbusePuppy July 23, 2017 9:30 am #

      >heralds,fleshpunds, plague drones, daemonettes, pink horrors, fareweaver
      >very unconventional list

      No offense to you or him, but that right there sounds exactly like every Daemon list that every single person brought to “regular” tournaments. Add in a unit of Screamers and/or a Lord of Change and you have the Standard Daemon Summonspam Deathstar right there.

  3. Don Tomaso July 23, 2017 10:34 am #

    Cilithan is spot on. Tournaments are a pathetic joke, there is less skill involved and more rock paper scissor meta guessing and spam.

    The solution could be to make special tournament detatchments that force players to be more varied and not spam at least.

  4. Venkarel July 23, 2017 12:41 pm #

    Play the way you want and leave my competition alone. It is not up to you all to change these things, if tourney players didn’t want to play in the environment they would not pay for entrance, hotel and flights. All of the fixes I have seen promoted boil down to a spoiled child yelling, Play my Waaaaay.

    • DlongMcPooples July 23, 2017 4:53 pm #

      Wrong attitude my friend. I’ve been playing 40k and fantasy (not anymore) for over 20 years now, this is the most robust following I’ve ever seen for this hobby. It’s exciting. The ITC is driving it I believe, which speaks to your post. More players are starting as much because the models are cool and the games are fun as there is now a following; an international group of nerds that you can travel and be a part of. These spam lists kill enthusiasm for the game. Can you imagine how off-put some new player would be if he traveled to a tourney and played against Aaron Aelongs spam list. These competitive players are risking ruining this groundswell of support for a few minutes of fame. I had to stifle a well-deserved guffaw when Pablo was honoring these guys for putting away their spam lists for the good of the game. As leading ITC players they should have been setting the example. Sell-Outs plain and simple.

      • Venkarel July 24, 2017 5:46 am #

        No no no, bad four year old, you cannot tell your friend how to play army men. Again what I see is you yelling Play my Waaaay.

        • Flourescent Alpaca July 24, 2017 6:15 am #

          Also even if someone new got tabled in their first tourney game, they wil be paired with someone with a similar overal score for the next 2 or 3 rounds and have a better chance to win.

        • Threllen July 24, 2017 12:52 pm #

          First off – just because someone disagrees with you does not make them a ‘bad four year old.’ All name-calling does is weaken the legitimacy of your argument.

          Second, the amount of hypocrisy in your statement is astounding. No matter whether you’re playing the rules out of the book or playing a modified ruleset – *someone is telling you how to quote ‘play with your army men’.* So you can’t say “well if you want to change the rules then you’re a dumb 4-year-old that can’t stand the leet strategy that is my super tactical and hard-to-play stormraven spam” and in the same breath say “you can’t tell people how to play army men.” You’re literally doing the exact same thing by refusing to play by someone else’s rules.

          This just in: a majority of people don’t like to play all flyer spam. They don’t like force org charts that just encourage spamming hyperefficient, undercosted units. GW is now realizing this and changing the rules of the game themselves to accomodate it. But whether it is GW writing the rule or a tournament writing the rule – it’s all the same. Someone is telling you how to play with your army men. That’s why they’re called rules. And, in my opinion, there’s no reason tournaments shouldn’t listen to the majority of the people going to them. By definition that makes the game the most fun for the most people.

          • Venkarel July 24, 2017 4:58 pm
            #

            Let’s parse this reply.
            “First off – just because someone disagrees with you does not make them a ‘bad four year old.’” Agreed sarcasm and satire do not come across the internets well, see my first comment to get the bad four year old reference. I probably should have made it more apparent that this was tied to that.
            All name-calling does is weaken the legitimacy of your argument.” Not meant to be name calling and I apologize if taken that way. It was meant to point out that knee jerked reactions, less than two months into the game when GW is taking an active hand are very much so like a child (I am a father) yelling play my way.
            “Second, the amount of hypocrisy in your statement is astounding.” Uhh no it is not, please read the definition of hypocrisy. I will restate both my comments in their entirety. Play the way you want and leave my competition alone. It is not up to you all to change these things, if tourney players didn’t want to play in the environment they would not pay for entrance, hotel and flights. All of the fixes I have seen promoted boil down to a spoiled child yelling, Play my Waaaaay.
            And, No no no, bad four year old, you cannot tell your friend how to play army men. Again what I see is you yelling Play my Waaaay.
            “No matter whether you’re playing the rules out of the book or playing a modified ruleset – *someone is telling you how to quote ‘play with your army men’.” Again this was meant to point out the absurdity of people calling for action so fast based on manly two or three tournaments that are either a team tourney (a very different format than a GT) or preparing for a team based tourney (ATC and ETC). Team tournaments by nature promote taking one type of list to an extreme. GW is taking an active hand in adjusting the game, let them. Of course “someone” is telling me how to play the game, you need a rule set shared by both competitors to play any game, but it should not be someone one the internet yelling the way you play is wrong, you need to play my way or you are a terrible player etc. etc. Furthermore, the actions they call for are often either consciously or sub- consciously related to gaining an edge for how they want to play the game. Example: Battalions should be required!!!! Not thinking this favors Daemons or IG, most of the “Spam” Daemon or IG list from ATC and ETC have a battalion in them. I have no problem with identifying the most effective unit at a slot and playing as many as you can of this unit.
            I came to this game from other competitive forms of gaming and sports, the warhammer 40K community has always seems broken to me. They say they want to play competitively, but yet they apologize for variance or for straight out playing an opponent. I think this comes from years of abuse from GW and having to struggle to find and keep a player base. Ironically, one of the reasons they have has such a struggle is they do not yet know what type of game they want to play at any give situation. They want to unify the game for everyone and frankly this is impossible. When I play at a FNM or play my friends in hearts, spades, or soccer I play differently and seek different rewards than when I play those games competitively in a tournament.
            When I first starting asking people after our game, how I could have played the game better, or asked where I made poor decisions, they would say, “nah you did nothing wrong it was the dice (which was totally false they out played me). The community looks down on those that try to get an edge through list building, they frown on competitive play using nicknames like WAAC. Could you imagine calling a top esports player WAAC because they play the most effective character or used the most effective tool for their position? How about Tiago Chan from magic, he is a wunderkind but should he be reigned in because he is successful or should he not be allowed to play a blue based deck? I go out of my way to find and play the toughest competition, I often lose but I get better.
            “* So you can’t say “well if you want to change the rules then you’re a dumb 4-year-old that can’t stand the leet strategy that is my super tactical and hard-to-play stormraven spam”. I never said this, you did (see reposts inline above). “and in the same breath say “you can’t tell people how to play army men.” Where did I say this in my two comments or are you adding your own commentary, thus making a different argument? I said play the way you want and leave my competition alone, meaning if you come to a competitive game you are seeking different incentives than a casual game. What I want to play is a competitive game, where I match my list building, grasp of the meta game, and tactical skill against anyone… anyone. As long as we are playing under the same rule set without someone cheating I would be happy.
            “You’re literally doing the exact same thing by refusing to play by someone else’s rules.” Again I did not say this in anyway, in fact I said play your way but leave the game alone for competitive players. I did say or at least meant to point out is that those calling for change often has a very real alternative motive (their own advancement), in my experience.
            “This just in: a majority of people don’t like to play all flyer spam.” Not a single one of my teammates at any of the three ATC’s (in my opinion the toughest tournament, player skill wise, in the US) I have attended have ever complained about their opponents lists in this way. Nor should they, they knew what they were getting into (one of them help create the format for ATC) and they themselves tried to make the most successful lists under the format rules. How do you claim to represent the majority, where you voted into this position?
            “They don’t like force org charts that just encourage spamming hyper efficient, undercosted units. GW is now realizing this and changing the rules of the game themselves to accomodate it. But whether it is GW writing the rule or a tournament writing the rule – it’s all the same. Someone is telling you how to play with your army men. That’s why they’re called rules.” OK if this is true they will speak when the first ITC poll comes through until then, hands off unless you are authorized by GW to make rule changes. Just curious where you got your data for the claims of the majority don’t like …., or they do not like…. It seems to me, again, you meant to say I do not like this or that, which is fine, play that way but leave my competition alone.
            And, in my opinion, there’s no reason tournaments shouldn’t listen to the majority of the people going to them.” But they are and through 7th and now into 8th the major tourneys grew, not shrunk and the quality of the competition and lists got harder, not easier. I want to play a tough, honest (hopefully) game without the hyperbole or rhetoric that implies I am evil or misguided in some way.
            Again you claim to represent a majority but no one I asked seemed to have heard of you, nor did they receive a poll or questionnaire or survey to establish these “facts”. What I think you are saying is I think tournaments should listen to me and play my waaaay.

      • Kartr_Kana July 24, 2017 12:18 pm #

        My army looks forward to eating that Spam with my re-rolling +1d devastators with Plasma Cannons, Missile Launchers and Las Cannons!

        Also before ya’ll start whinging for “highlander” style formats and greater restrictions, think about how GW is already FAQing the game, hasn’t released any Codics yet and are planning on doing a Generals Handbook type thing. They’ve already update the rules so that if all you have on the table is flyers, you lose. And it’s only been what a month?

        But still, fighting silly spam is still better than going up against unkillable deathstars. And more realistic than fighting an army with one unit of everything in the codex.

        Plus you go Highlander and well here’s my Terminus Ultra, Guilliman, Land Raider, Land Raider Crusader, Predator Annihilator, Storm Raven, and Storm Talon… Wheee

  5. Akaida July 24, 2017 12:24 am #

    Some constructive criticism for the show. i think that some of the rambling could be reduced if you had a regular cohost. They don’t even quite need super competitive experience, but someone to just manage the flow of the show that is still familiar with the scene. That way it feels less like one big jumbled together piece, and a set of segments/topics/questions that feel like separated thoughts.

    And for a question, what do you think is the most improved unit with the addition of the Space Marine Codex?

    • dasbeets July 24, 2017 5:07 am #

      How many downloads would this show have if it wasn’t included on the same feed as signals?

      • Cephalobeard July 24, 2017 12:26 pm #

        This is like the second or third time you’ve made that same comment across multiple Chapter Tactics.

        I download the podcasts directly from this website, where they’re immediately available from. Maybe you should stop being lazy and downloading them all together if you’re so enraged by part of them.

        I appreciate your content Pablo, keep it up.

      • Someguy July 24, 2017 1:15 pm #

        I think it’s a fair point. If Pablo had to get his own feed his podcast would most likely not have as many downloads or listens.

      • Peteypab July 24, 2017 3:05 pm #

        My podcast gets the most downloads on our podcast network. I understand you don’t like my show, and I certainly am not trying to force anyone to listen to my podcast, but the way my podcast came to be is an interesting story that you know nothing about.

        If Reece and Frankie had not wanted me on their network they never would have put me in the queue (with the 9th age, I might add).

        I thank them everyday for the oppurtunity and do not deny the fact that they are the reason people know who I am. I also don’t really think i’ve done anything to earn any of the praise I receive. I just wanted to talk about a subject I was passionate about.

        TL DR I just work here, bruh.

    • Peteypab July 24, 2017 3:08 pm #

      @Akaida I agree about the regular co-host. It is an idea I have toyed with for a long time. I personally think it may ruin some of the interviews with other competitive players. On the flip side it would certainly help with some of episodes (this one for example).

      Stormravens and Guilliman are the most improved.

  6. AlexBware July 24, 2017 11:37 pm #

    You talked about the german ETC-lists since they are the defending champions. In my oppinion France has the strongest list followed by Wales.

    The way pairings Work at the ETC is one list is set forth, which is then matched up by two of the opponents lists. The defending player then choose which of the two lists, he will want to play and choose which table they will play on.

    France have two really strong (and Spammy) lists with lots of bodies – IG (Yeah I call them that) and Chaos Daemons – Princes and Brimstone (Time will be a factor in these games) – Both these lists are also Smite-spam lists, which will hurt most elite armies including Stormraven lists.
    They also have two specific Stormraven counter Stormraven lists with 3 and 4 deployment drops with lots of lascannons – Thus preventing their opponents using Stormraven lists as defending armies.
    Other than that they have a Sisters army (I am no expert on that one) and a Classic razorwing lists with Dark Reaper Support hiding in a bastion (A very neat trick, which not many countries have used), Tau Commander/Drone spam and a DA Azrael Razorback list. All in all very strong lists, that seems to have an answer to most pairing situations.

    Wales have two specific counter Stormraven lists – Tau and Imperial Guard. Both have a lot of Deep strike units (Commanders and Scions) – Both of these lists will blow Stormravens out of the sky – The Scion lists features 48 deployment drops (most which are heavy weapon teams with mortars) – But more importantly, it is able to deepstrike 8 Tempestus Primes, 8 Scion Squads with each shooting 5 overcharged plasma shots and 8 Scion command shots each shootint 8 overcharged plasma shots – all rerolling 1s due to orders. That is a lot of plasma shots 🙂

    IMO the rests of Wales’ lists are also very strong, featuring a couple of Stormraven lists, renegade knights with Magnus, razorwing spam, a DA Dark Talon lists with two Dark Shrouds and a Tau Commander Fusion Gun spam lists (10 commanders w. 4 fusion guns(1 w. 3 fusionguns)) – This tau list will also blow Stormravens from the sky. And finally a genestealer cult lists with aprox. 160 stealers.

    These two countries do IMO have the most best list for the ETC this year – We will just have to see, if their players are as good as the Germans and Polish players. Oh yeah, and the Danish players of course (being a Dane my self).

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