GW Reveals Raven Guard and White Scars Chapter Tactics!

Wow, these look great!

The Raven Guard are going to be game changers. A lot of lists are going to struggle against these shadowy warriors. Read the full article, here.

The White Scars also look awesome! Jump Packs especially are going to be amazing with the ability to leave combat and still shoot and charge. Read the full story, here.

How do you think these stack up to the Ultramarines?

And now I think everyone is seeing the need to differentiate between detachments, right? You can’t have one detachment of Blue Marines using White Scars CTs and another detachment of Blue Space Marines using Raven Guard CTs.

Thoughts? Which CTs are you going to use?

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47 Responses to “GW Reveals Raven Guard and White Scars Chapter Tactics!”

  1. Shane July 18, 2017 9:43 am #

    These Chapter Tactics are very cool but as for competitive play does it matter? Until the flyer spam lists are addressed tournaments are dead. The last thing I want to do is spend $4000 to travel to Las Vegas to play 6 flyers.

    • Threllen July 18, 2017 10:17 am #

      There will probably need to be some additional comp restrictions, but these chapter tactics will already help alleviate flyer spam by making normal units better. Flyers are a lot less attractive when more standard units are getting additional bonuses and flyers are staying the same.

      • Reecius
        Reecius July 18, 2017 10:56 am #

        I assume Flyer comp is coming in some form, so no sweat, there.

        And a lot of things help mitigate that: progressive missions, not using auto go-first mechanics, etc.

        The LVO will be a fun, fair event for all army types and we will include the Gladiator format for those who do want to use the truly brutal army lists =)

        • Shane July 18, 2017 4:44 pm #

          Any idea when flyer comp may come? Because the ATC ETC lists were crazy. I’m going to a small 8th ITC tournament at the end of the week and I was excited to play until I saw those lists lol. I went to LVO two years ago and had last. I’m sure it will be very fun and competitive but running lists of flyers within the current ITC format is broken.

        • Brakhal July 18, 2017 5:00 pm #

          That comp is not coming soon enough…

          I know some people who, after just a few games on 8th, are leaving again because of the stormraven/brimstone spams. Those are the 2 brocken metachanging things. The sooner they fix it, the better.

        • Drachnyen July 18, 2017 5:54 pm #

          My suggestion as a quick fix: just remove the flyer detachment. You don’t need to modify any rule or have adverse impact to factions by restricting units, people can still take flyers in regular detachments. Case closed.

          • Peter de Florio July 20, 2017 1:49 pm
            #

            Ur missing the point. Call them CEQs. The birds can’t kill all those high quality wounds so can’t win games. And most armies can field something similar.

            We’ve been doing a lot of testing. Massively shooty msu can beat it to.

            But I’ll throw you a bone.

            If you wanted to adjust a rule, adjust the requirements for vehicles getting cover. It should just be 50% from a terrain feature. As it is vehicles rarely get cover, which is equivalent to the -1 to hit that flyers get.

            The other option is TOs getting there shoot together and building more LOS block terrain. To be frank, this edition needs new terrain. If you are filling up table s with Ruins, trees and hills you might as well be putting no terrain on the board.

            Anyway I’m just against fucking up the game before a single codex has been dropped.

        • Peter de Florio July 19, 2017 11:44 am #

          Ugh… Please don’t change the game.

          The codexes haven’t even come out yet.

          There are hard counters to flyer spam.

          That said, interesting missions is a good way to curb flyer usefulness.

          If you are going to address it, just address spam in general. Like every unit has to be different.

          • Shane July 19, 2017 12:31 pm
            #

            Interesting missions isn’t fixing flyer spam. You’re talking 5 Stormravens with twin assault cannons, twin heavy bolters, and missiles. All of that before you choose whether to add other options. 14 hull points per model and they don’t take a negative for shooting heavy weapons, but you take a negative to shoot them. Except you won’t be shooting them because of the low model count they will go first and shoot you off the table first turn.

          • Shane July 19, 2017 12:33 pm
            #

            It wasn’t my intention to hijack this post and cry about flyer spam lol. It just bothered me that as cool stuff comes out it is currently rendered useless by this spam.

          • Threllen July 19, 2017 12:41 pm
            #

            Just because there are “hard counters” to flyers doesn’t mean they aren’t a problem.

            1. Not every army has a hard counter available to them. Those armies shouldn’t just auto-lose if the guy across from them took 5 stormravens.
            2. You have to invest a significant portion of your army to countering the flyers in order for it actually to work. If you just take a few things that can actually kill the flyers and then the rest is a normal army… guess what the flyer player is going to kill first when he goes first? (thanks to low model count). And if you’re investing enough of your army at countering flyers you’re probably weak in other areas. Meaning you’re shooting yourself in the foot unless everybody takes flyers. So unless you think literally over half of the players will take all flyers you’re better off not taking a hardcounter list since you’ll be at a disadvantage in the majority of your games.
            3. Progressive missions isn’t nearly enough. They’re great and all but getting tabled is auto-lose. And it’s not as if it’s impossible for flyers to hold objectives anymore. They can’t do a great job unless they hover but they can still score unlike last edition.

            This game should not be played with all of the available force org charts in the competitive scene, period. They encourage spamminess because spamming hyper-efficient units that are only affected by a select-few models makes them almost impossible to beat. They will be able to kill the models that threaten them quicker than those models can kill them in return. Some sort of comp is needed in the competitive scene because the current climate allows spamming of basically anything you want which doesn’t make for an enjoyable game when you’re allowed to spam things the other player can’t interact with.

          • ChrisG
            Ahkris July 20, 2017 12:30 am
            #

            There are hard counters to flyer spam? What is a khorne daemons or even khorne CSM player going to do against all stormravens? Sure the daemon prince with wings has fly and can assault it. Guess who gets absolutely rekt by a bunch of stormravens first then?

            Its not healthy when a single mechanic or unit type blocks out a huge portion of the armies and codexes of being viable. Same way how grav making all walkers useless wasnt good for 7th

          • Peter de Florio July 20, 2017 12:27 pm
            #

            Lol. Well Shane, you are crying about flyers. They are strong but they are not unsurmountable.

            14 null points is pretty easy to deal with even if you take 6 of them. There are a lot of really good list that no one is talking about.

            At 2000 points you are talking 20 carnies with 120 T7 wounds… No synapse but you get the idea.

            You ever sat down and ran the numbers on maxed out ork artillery at 38 points a pop.

            Or IG with 24 point lascannons and I’m not even getting into the concepts of razor flock.

            And Ahkirs… Dude. You want to ban flyers because you play CSM khorne?

            You chose an army with the longest ranged weapon is a bolt pistol! LOL. Don;t get me wrong. I love my all jumper Raven Guard list, but I don’t expect tournament rules to change, so that my highly specialized list can compete with everything.

            You guys kill me 🙂

          • Threllen July 20, 2017 12:39 pm
            #

            What kills me Peter is that half the things you just listed are either:
            a) really not that strong
            b) you can’t even take the list. Such as the 20 carnifexes which would require a minimum of 4 HQs to fit them into 4 different Heavy Support detachment. Not to mention the fact a lot of tournaments have limits on # of total detachments which would also invalidate the list.
            3) Most importantly, I don’t see a single thing you listed that would actually beat a flyer list. Carnifexes and Ork artillery certainly aren’t going to touch flyers.

          • Jural July 20, 2017 1:04 pm
            #

            You can fit 3 Carnifexes per unit, so you can put 18 into a Spearhead detachment along with an HQ and be fine. Not going to weigh in on the rest of the thoughts 😉

            Carnifexes are secretly a very viable interesting Tyranid spam build right now. Not sure if they are top table, and am still way to interested taking a Noah’s Ark approach to my lists as some of my beautiful models which were not usable have become fieldable again!

          • Brakhal July 20, 2017 5:18 pm
            #

            Carnifexes are fine. They are some sort of dreadnoughts for poors, with low accuracy and bad weapons, in exchange of a really cheap point cost.

            But they are no match for the ravens. 5 stormravens should be able to slay from 8 to 10 ‘fexes per turn, with average luck and spliting firepower with some brain. That game will end in 3 turns, maybe 4, with the ‘nids tabled.

          • ChrisG
            Ahkris July 20, 2017 11:20 pm
            #

            Peter where did i say i play CSM khorne? And where do i say i want to ban all flyers? You either really didnt read at all or youre just making up your own conversation my man.

            My argument is it sucks if a list invalidates all assault armies. That has nothing to do if you can counter it by running some weird list specifically tailored to deal with this one list.

            “Flyer spam invalidates a lot of armies and isnt healthy for the game”
            “lol dont play those armies ”

            Hardly seems like an attitude that will result in a healthy tournament scene

          • Jural July 21, 2017 12:48 am
            #

            Yeah, Carnifexes are interesting and good pieces, a poor mans dread is a great description. But not a very good flyer counter, lol!

    • AngryPanda July 19, 2017 1:36 pm #

      We need comp in the most balanced edition ever? Damn. Who would have thought?

      • happy_inquisitor July 20, 2017 9:56 pm #

        It’s not really about balance, it is about the fundamental power of spam which would be true even if models like the stormraven were correctly points costed. It is just a bit worse when something is undercosted – and in a game with so many models it is almost inevitable that something somewhere will be undercosted until that gets corrected.

        The rules of Matched Play in the book are already light comp. The rulebook says it is a toolbox to be used to build the game you want, so TO’s should do just that and apply a bit more comp until they get the healthy tournament scene they want.

        • Jural July 21, 2017 12:50 am #

          Exactly- the Wraithknight issue all over again… fine pieces, but you can spam them at 300 per model?

  2. Luke July 18, 2017 10:43 am #

    They revealed all of the other ones too (or someone leaked them).

    Loving the Salamanders units getting some free re-rolls

  3. Jural July 18, 2017 11:26 am #

    Wow, if the other chapters get as good of relics, special character rules, and stratagems as shown already, there is no need to play anything but marines for awhile.

    Templars or Fists may have gotten the short end of the stick for chapter tactics. But both are good, functional, rules.

  4. TrexPushups July 18, 2017 11:50 am #

    I like the ultramarines ones but in terms of shaking up the potential metas the Raven Guard one is the most impactful.

    Ultramarines is solid and servicable but it is useless for an entire class of units. Anything that has the fly keyword already does it better.

    Still it will be very brutal against assault units that intend to tie up more than they intend to kill.

    I’m looking forward to topping out at the middle tables.

    • Threllen July 18, 2017 12:56 pm #

      You have to remember Chapter Tactics only work on infantry, bikes, and dreadnoughts (per info revealed in GWs Ultramarines article). The vast majority of those do not have the fly keyword apart from assault marines and inceptors. So it’s not as if that “entire class of units” makes up a large portion of Marines. It’s the exact opposite – a large portion of Marines DON’T have fly and would love this CT.

      Plus, the +1 LD is very generically strong. Combined with the ATSKNF re-rolls it becomes very hard to suffer casualties due to morale.

      • TrexPushups July 18, 2017 7:49 pm #

        The real reason I am boned is my refusal to use standard marines and my taking of novamarines instead of ultramarines meaning I get 0 special characters.

        The trait is solid.

  5. Darthdiggler July 18, 2017 12:48 pm #

    Yesterday someone posted that they hoped Imperial Fists don’t get a tactic that affected buildings. Well they did and it is a waste. Their ignores cover tactic is also one edition to late as nothing of value in 8th edition (flyers, Brimstone, dreads, etc..) cares one hoot for gaining cover saves. To many weapons with high volumes of fire already reduce armor saves and make that ability moot. To be fair the Fists ignores cover ability can have a limited situational affect on a small number of units which are rarely seen on the tabletop. ALL the other chapter tactics work against every army in every game. The Fists got shafted. You will not see a single Imperial Fists marine army in the top half of any competitive tourney. You will see some yellow Ultramarines though.

    • Duz_ July 18, 2017 1:47 pm #

      Tactical marines in cover with a 2+ save are difficult to remove so I wouldn’t discount ignores cover.

      • Darthdiggler July 18, 2017 2:42 pm #

        Really? Because Heavy Bolters, Assault Cannons, and autocannons all make marines lose their cover save. Those three weapons also are very common and shoot 4-12 times each. AND you can take another chapter tactic instead.

        • Jural July 18, 2017 3:04 pm #

          No, those weapons have -1 AP. This will stack with ignores cover, i.e. marines in cover will get a 4+ against those weapons, and a 3+ against people without the ability.

          Against armies like Tyranid, who rely on cover to take a 5+ to a 3+, the ability is game changing.

          But I agree, an ability impacting buildings suck. I’m going to wait for stratagems, relics, and warlord traits before writing off any faction though.

  6. cayesq July 18, 2017 1:23 pm #

    Do you guys think the Salamanders CT gives re-rolls in both shooting and fight phases in the same turn (meaning 4 re-rolls per unit per turn) or just one phase per turn (2 re-rolls per unit per turn)? The placement of the “OR” has me wondering and 4 re-rolls per turn seems, I dunno, outrageously amazing?

    • Jural July 18, 2017 3:05 pm #

      I read it as each phase. It would be otherwise quite annoying to bookkeep as well.

  7. AZGorilla July 18, 2017 5:27 pm #

    The Imperial Fists got Fisted. What a total waste of time and imagination. Can you imagine the collective blank stares in the room when some pasty, milk-toast looking, pseudo-genius came up with that idea? Then the rest of the “yes men” just nodded in agreement and hurried to the next lackluster idea. If someone stated a contrary opinion, I bet the the answer would have been “It’s not like they’re Ultramarines…” I complain about this and I’m actually an Iron Hands player and I like what they got. From here on I will have to refer to the Sons of Dorn as the Imperial Fisted.

    • Lockinfinity July 18, 2017 8:22 pm #

      Imperial fists basically have an extra -1ap on all weapons. Whirlwinds from IF are ingore LOS ignore cover, thatll toast up anything in ruins

      • Threllen July 19, 2017 5:42 am #

        -1 AP on all weapons *when the target is in cover.* That’s very different.

        Cover only works if the entire unit is actually within the terrain.
        Anything other than infantry also needs to be 50% obscured which isn’t easy.
        There are no more jink-type rules that give units cover in the open.
        Obscured unit rules are gone.

        In my experience cover is much, much less prevalent now than it was less edition. So it’s a highly situational -1AP which is very different than a blanket -1AP.

      • Threllen July 19, 2017 5:43 am #

        Also Chapter tactics don’t affect vehicles. So a whirlwind would not get ignores cover…

  8. WestRider July 18, 2017 6:00 pm #

    I’m really liking the White Scars, Raven Guard, and Salamanders ones, and I can see using any of them.

  9. fluger July 19, 2017 7:54 am #

    Were you guys involved in playtesting the new CTs?

    As a Raven Guard fan, I love this stuff!

  10. Don Tomaso July 19, 2017 10:15 am #

    Still weird when it says EVERY UNIT with the CHAPTER (salamanders) keyword.

    A landspeeder, rhino, pred etc all have salamander in the keyword.

    Does it actually say in the rules or codex tactics section that vehicles are specifically not allowed the tactic?

    • Flourescent Alpaca July 19, 2017 11:46 am #

      According to the GW community post about the ultramarines CTs, they only work on Infantry, Bikes and Dreadnoughts

      Otherwise the obvious list is Raven Guard Stormraven spam and the rules take a step in the wrong direction back to 8th

    • Threllen July 19, 2017 12:47 pm #

      It actually doesn’t say every unit with the CHAPTER keyword as you imply. The actual text for all chapter tactics say “for a CHAPTER unit with this *tactic*…” which implies that not all CHAPTER units will have the tactic.

      As FA said above, GW stated in the Ultramarines preview that only infantry, dreadnought, and bike units have access to chapter tactics. There is likely an overview on the opposite page from the text we have seen that explains this. Something along the lines of “CHAPTER units that are INFANTRY, DREADNOUGHT, or BIKE have acess to the chapter tactics shown opposite.”

  11. Don Tomaso July 19, 2017 10:16 am #

    And I´m really surprised that people are all screaming awesome when it comes to the smurfs scars and ravens while the real borderline OP tactic is the salamanders one.

    • Flourescent Alpaca July 19, 2017 11:47 am #

      It’s definitely really good, as you essentially get a bunch of extra command point rerolls which are great

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