Read Frankie’s article, here!
What do you all think?
Posted on May 13, 2017
in 40K, News
Tags: 40K news
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Slightly irked by Split costing points, purely because it’s not the best in AOS.
I’ll reserve judgement for when I see more.
Split is AMAZING in AoS, I have won games because of it on multiple occasions. The way split works in 40k now is utterly broken, IMO.
Yeah? I’m happy to be swayed otherwise.
Splitting without free summoning seems kind of not great, especially when Tzeentch lists in 7th were only using Brimstones, etc.
Again, happy to be wrong, this is just the first thing I’m apprehensive about without knowing more.
Split in AoS is amazing because of when it works. You essentially assure the ability to tie up an enemy unit for three turns, which in a 5 turn game, is crazy points efficient. For example, I used Pinks to Blue to Brims to keep a giant unit of Brutes out of the game until the last turn when it no longer mattered and also contested an objective at the same time! For the points it was an absurd benefit, massively out of proportion to what they cost.
I don’t care if they kill anything at all. That’s not their purpose. They contain a unit that is scary to me and keep it tied up, or assure I will have bodies on an objective for 3 turns. The efficiency at which they convert is irrelevant. It’s just having the assurance that you will have bodies in a key location for a guaranteed 3 turns and the other player cannot stop it. That is so, so crazy good.
I appreciate the insight. I look forward to knowing more.
Happy to help!
Because, as much as I hate to say it, I think you’re the first person I’ve seen ever say they LIKE how split works in AOS. Haha
Then you’re living under a rock, man. Because I have seen that people who hate split costing are in the minority. I attended the LVO and have gotten my arse kicked by a smart Death player who knew how to use summoning to win him the game. Free units is not good, in any form. It’s the most feasible and reasonable solution.
Again, I am plenty happy to be wrong.
I am speaking purely from my own personal perspective and am showing a willingness to change said perspective.
I wouldn’t call that under a rock, if anything I’m eager to learn.
Any insight into how you think split is amazing under the current version in AoS? I never bother with my tzeentch army. They just aren’t better than another unit of horrors to me.
I agree that the current 40k version is too good.
Mark the beastman on the baddice podcast goes over how he uses his horrors splitting to lock down units and board positions in one of their episodes. I can’t remember which episode it is though (one of their GTs over there they did recently). But basically the unit is setup where the previous unit was, so can be done so in base to base.
He runs 2 units of 10 pinks, 10 blues and 10 brimstone so it takes 3 turns to clear them. He can also obviously summon any of these units instead as well.
Precisely. It is SO GOOD, lol. I encourage folks to try it out in game and not just in theory. Their incredible abilities become evident when you actually use them.
Can you expand on that a bit? I would genuinely love to hear your thoughts on split in AoS. It feels like a bad mechanic as I see it now and if I use summoning points I never invest in it.
As stated above, it is ridiculously good. The reason why is it assures you 3 turns of whatever it is you need the unit to do and your opponent cannot stop it, but must chew through the units one at a time, one turn at a time. It burns the clock which is tremendously, massively useful. I seriously feel it is borderline OP, lol.
Yeah sorry for the double post but these didn’t seem to show up for me for over a day.
I’ll have to try out splitting horrors again. Didn’t know about appearing in base contact.
Yeah, you can keep a mega melee unit pinned down for three turns. So, so, so good. You force them to fall back if they don’t want to burn the clock. And if you’re on an objective too? Holy smokes, it is seriously almost too good.
It works well in AoS (and hopefully here to) because splitting is an almost guaranteed thing (and if it doesn’t happen that means they’ve left your horrors alone and you spend the points elsewhere during the game), with the points set aside you can spend them on other things but if you need to hold an objective or block some movement and your pinks die then you can throw out blue/brimstones as needed.
Also as they’re cheap it’s often that you’ll have the few points remaining from what ever else you’ve summoned to get them down anyway. And in New 40K you aren’t going to be paying for units in blocks of points as in AoS so it’ll be even easier to pay for a few blues/brimstones.
It’s no longer about weight of numbers of units for the enemy to chew through with horrrors, it’s the ease of maintaining board control and gaining extra positioning advantage from placement as they’re removed.
But isn’t split just the worst way to use those points?
Since one blue horror is worth the same as 10 if your opponent kills one pink and you want to get a couple blues out of it then you have to pay full points for them. Using split you’re super unlikely to get your full points worth out of it. It may be guaranteed but it’s way more points effecient to just summon the full unit. Or ignore blue and brimstone altogether and focus on pink horrors since they can actually cast all those high damage spells.
If you look at a pure points to damage perspective, but if those blues/brimstones block a unit from getting to an objective, bog a powerful hero down in combat, create a larger denial zone right before the enemies charge phase and all of this happening mid your opponents turn (and possibly messing up their double turn plan) then their lesser damage and a bit of points per model inefficiency is irrelevant, their presence is what matters.
Also at least 5 pink horrors dieing from an attack is not unlikely.
Summoning points give you options, split is fantastic disruption option for very few points, it’s not something to plan around usually but it’s a common trick.
But you have to die in exact multiples of 5 to fully use your points which is less likely. I can see some value but most of the time it doesn’t seem worth it when you could just summon a full unit.
Also feel like with blue and brimstone not being wizards it makes them far less useful than pink horrors. Their shooting isn’t worth it for the points.
I think you’re missing the point, you don’t summon them to do damage, they’re very cheap and you summon them to be disruption units as you can summon them during in your enemies turn.
If you summoned pinks normally you’re using up a wizards spell, restricting them to appearing within 18 inches of the wizard and 9 inches away from enemy units and giving your opponent a whole turn to react to them appearing.
While you may get points efficiency for summoning normally splitting means allows you to mess with your opponent in their turn, I’ve seen it used a lot to win games by blocking movement and bogging powerful units down, it’s a good tactic that’s worth the potential points inefficiency (and even then we’re talking only 40-50 points down in order to win the game). I’ve even seen pink horrors left alone at key moments because the other player was worries about the potential disruption of split, freeing some summoning points up for the Tzeentch player in their next turn.
Presumably in 8th as you’re paying for individual models and not blocks of models when using points even that downside of inefficiency won’t be a problem.
So if the summoner dies, you lose all the units if they haven’t been summoned yet?
If it works like it does in AoS then all psykers can summon all units, and daemons won’t be short of psykers. But yes if your psykers die you lose access to the pool (outside of split or other special rules like bloodtithe and the like) so protect your psykers, which with the character rules shouldn’t be too tricky to do.
Players use summoning a fair bit in competitive AoS and it’s a hell of a lot harder to protect your characters there 🙂
And that is working on the assumption that the mechanic is the same between both systems which it may not be.
It didn’t say specifically, though it hinted, but I’m assuming that we no longer have to make 10,000 rolls before placing the first demon mini on the tabletop. I certainly hope so. I printed out flowcharts to play the Tetrad.
Yeah, that is so, so true. Daemons are unnecessarily complex at the moment for not much gain, IMO. Some streamlining would be so much more enjoyable for both players when it comes to Daemons.
Hey Reecius, there has been some confusion on the wording in the Slaanesh Daemonettes.
Some are reading it as the bonus attack for 20+ models also gets psuedo-Rending, while others are reading it as the Piercing Claws ALWAYS get psuedo-Rending (rolls of a 6 are resolved at AP -4) and the 20+ bonus is just +1 Attack.
Are you allowed to clarify which was the intent of the paragraph?
I thought it was clear in the article but I will specify. The rule for +1 attack applies only to unit size, the Daemonettes always get their choppy claws, regardless of unit size.
Thats how I was reading it but there was some debate on the Tyranid Hive forum. Thank you for clarifying!
You got it!
Awesome article! Chaos sounds awesome!!!
Chaos players are going to be mega stoked, I can confidently say that at this point =) So many units are good again that were not at all in the past.
So you now have to make new lists on the fly? Sounds equally obnoxious as all the rolls pre-game. :/
I predict tournament “scandals” where players are too tired after a long day of gaming to do maths summoning too many points.
How would that be different than summoning now? You just stop summoning when you hit your preset points that you set aside.
If you set aside 300 points, then that is 3 units of 11 horrors or 1 LoC. How hard was that?
Until you play that game where you decide you need some Plague Drones, and you know that unit of Horrors that just died was really important so you decided to split it, and then… etc.
I’m sorry but I don’t see how that’s difficult to work out. You’re working with a limited pool, you know what models you have and summoning can only happen at set times, not just whenever, it’s really not difficult.
Yeah, this is how it works in AoS and it is so, so simple. In that game you write down what units you have in your summoning pool, check them off when you pick them. It’s honestly not complicated at all.
Nice. I like the idea of large size units getting bonuses. Gives you something to consider instead of min maxing.
In IGUGO games, MSU is almost always preferable, if this is true for a variety of units then you might see more full size units.
Exactly, it’s a mechanic in AoS too, and it is a lot of fun.
I think the way to make split still a relevant rule in 40k is to make it so you only pay for the actual models spawned and not like AoS where you pay full price no matter how many models you get. Also need to have blue and brimstone be truly useful units either have them all still be psykers or give them unique abilities that pink don’t have.
Also Reece I can’t seem to reply to you but I’m very interested in how you use split that makes you like it so much.
Split in AoS is mega powerful for reasons stated above. People get lost with trying to make the units lethal, but they serve a much more important function: board control.
I’m super excited to test out my Slaanesh Beasthoarde in 8th edition!
Slaanesh is solid!
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