Traitor Legions Preview Part 2 of 2

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Hey everyone, we’re back with part 2 of the Traitor Legions preview.

Be sure to read part 1, here, and to check the Tactics Corner for more reviews. Also, please remember, this is a preview not a full review, giving you some of the highlights of the book and some fun details!

blackleglogo

Black Legion

The Evil Ultramarines! Black Legion are the elite of the Chaos Space Marines and their special rules reflect this: Chosen and Terminators as Troops…say what? Yes, I will take ObSec Termicide Squads, please. They also gain Hatred, and super Hatred vs. Imperial armies (gaining the benefit every turn vs. them).

Highlights:

  1. In their Black Legion Speartip detachment, non-vehicle units gain the Fear and Crusader special rules.
  2. Also, units that can Deep Strike begin rolling for reserves on turn 1. The Warlord and his unit automatically come in on turn 1! All kinds of crazy combos you can pull out of that.
  3. Unlike many of the other non-Cult legions, Black Legion can include units with any Mark of Chaos.
  4. Largest selection of specialized formations.

alpha_legion_livery

Alpha Legion

WOW, Alpha Legion are comin in hot! They got some outstanding benefits. They get Chosen as Troops and Chosen, Chaos Space Marines and Cultists get Infiltrate! Soooooo gooood. Imagine ObSec Chosen in Rhinos Infiltrating or Outflanking and busting out 4+ Special Weapon shots. But wait, there’s more! What may be the coolest rule in the book: Many Heads of the Hydra, which lets you nominate a new Warlord if you current Warlord dies, generating a new Warlord Trait. The enemy has to destroy ALL of your characters to get Warlord…holy crap. In a tournament, that can seriously make a huge difference as you consistently do not give up Slay the Warlord. What great benefits!

Highlights:

  1. Warlord Trait: Faceless Commander: Once per game, you can swap places with your Warlord and another Character. Pretty cool but what happens when you swap places with an Aspiring Champion and pull him out of unit coherency? Think they meant Independent Character…
  2. Artifact: Icon of Insurrection: Friendly units of Chaos Cultists within 12″ of the bearer gain Zealot…wow! That’s awesome and a huge aura ability.
  3. Artifact: The Mindveil: In the movement phase you can choose to move the bearer and his unit up to 3d6″ instead of moving normally…even if you’re locked in combat. Cool!
  4. Cannot take any Marked units, Alpha Legion don’t play dat Chaos Worshipin game!
  5. In their Alpha Legion Insurgency Detachment they gain Shrouded on the first turn and Cultists come back on a 4+!

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Iron Warriors

The Iron Warriors are going to be quite popular! True to their fluff, they can bring Obliterators or Mutilators as troops choices. That’s pretty good. On top of that, Oblits, Mutilators and Havocs get Tank Hunters…that’s really good! On top of everything else, much like Iron Hands, they get FnP 6+ to boot.

Highlights:

  1. In their Iron Warriors Grand Company detachment they can reroll barrage and Ordnance Weapons, and gain Stubborn.
  2. These guys will rock in a CAD with ObSec, Tank Hunting Oblits!
  3. They have Warlord Trait that lets Oblits fire the same weapon in subsequent shooting phases.
  4. Cranium Malevolus: Artifact that in each shooting phase hits all enemy vehicles in 2d6″ with a Haywire hit that ignores cover.
  5. Can’t take any marked units.

6083868ff54d3129eec3571ebd26d348

Night Lords

My favorite legion: the Night Lords. If I said I was stoked with their special abilities, well, I’d be lying, haha. They’re clearly (to me, at least) the weakest of the bunch, unfortunately. That said, I am happy to get some rules for them, I just wish they were a bit better. You get Raptors as troops (yay), Fear, Night Vision and Stealth. In melee you subtract 2 from your leadership when taking Fear checks. Stealth is pretty solid. Fear is….not. Le sigh, if only their Raptors were Fearless, they’d be playable…

Highlights:

  1. No marked units.
  2. One with the Shadows: Warlord Trait that lets the Warlord and his unit reroll failed cover saves.
  3. Their Night Lords Murder Talon detachments gives them rerolls for failed charges, and the choice to make the first turn Night Fight, giving non-vehicle Night Lords +1 cover save if they do so.
  4. Vox Daemonicus: Artifact that gives a -1 leadership debuff to enemy units within 6″, and -1 to enemy reserve rolls. Nice! This combos well with the Raptor Talon which gives a -2 to enemy leadership. You can get a -3 for general leadership tests and -5 to fear checks. Pretty good, but considering so many things ignore morale in the competitive meta it is pretty hit or miss.

word-bearers

Word Bearers

There are some excellent abilities for the Word Bearers! They get Possessed as troops which is OK, makes sense with the fluff, but like Night Lords with their Raptors, it’s a very over-costed unit. They do get 3+ to harness Warp Charge when summoning Daemons though, which is both characterful and awesome! Combined with a Spell Familiar they become ultra efficient. They hate Ultramarines (and vice versa) and their Dark Apostles have a 6″ Zealot aura.

Highlights:

  1. No Cult units such as Noise Marines but can take marked units otherwise.
  2. Warlord Trait: The Voice of Lorgar: 12″ bubble to grant Counter-attack, Fearless, Furious Charge, or Relentless to a friendly Word Bearers unit.
  3. Artifact: Baleful Icon: Enemy units have to reroll successful charge rolls against the bearer’s unit and even if successful, do not gain any bonus attacks.
  4. Their Word Bearers Grand Host detachment grants Crusader to all non-vehicle units and at the start of each turn, a character of your choice gets a free roll on the Chaos Boon table.

world-eaters

World Eaters

I seriously love the World Eaters bonuses. They’re characterful, fun, and effective. They gain Berzerkers as troops unsurprisingly, and units with VotLW also gain Adamantium Will, Fearless and Furious Charge…holy Khorne’s Axe! That’s a potent combo. That makes–dare I say it–regular Chaos Space marines…playable! I never thought those words in that order would come out of my mouth without an edition change. Your basic CSM with a Chain Sword and Bolt Pistol with MoK and VotLW (which is free, remember) is now Fearless, has Rage, Furious Charge, Adamantium Will and can get a bonus move before the game starts in their “Decurion” detachment. That is so damn good! You could run 5 man units of them as cheap ObSec objective grabbers that actually pack a punch in melee.

Highlights:

  1. All units must have the Mark of Khorne if possible.
  2. Non Khorne marked units cannot be taken.
  3. Warlord Trait: Violent Urgency: Friendly units with the MoK within 8″ of your Warlord roll 3d6 for charges and take the two highest dice.
  4. Artifact: Talisman of the Burning Blood: Add 3″ to the bearer and his unit’s move, run and charge rolls. This makes these guys REALLY fast! This combos really well with the Maelstrom of Gore formation wherein Berzerkers get +3″ to charge rolls and Fleet! +6″ charges with rerolls? Holy smokes!
  5. In their World Eaters Butcherhorde, all non-vehicle units get a 2d6″ free move (NOT a Scout move) and they plus Walkers in the detachment can reroll failed charges. Awesome.

thousand-sons

Thousand Sons

This is the same bonuses and such that are presented in the Wrath of Magnus book, which you can get a full breakdown of, here.

death-guard

Death Guard

This may be the most powerful set of legion rules. Let me know what you think! So, Death Guard get Plague Marines as troops, and anyone with VotLW also get Fearless, Feel no Pain, -1 Initiative, and Relentless. BOOM! So, so good. Also, so characterful. Again, as with World Eaters the magic USR: Fearless makes so many units that stunk, viable. Feel no Pain and Relentless are just icing on the cake! Havocs walking around blasting stuff, min/maxed units of CSMs that are super durable for grabbing objectives, etc. T6 Bikers with FnP and Fearless? So good. Fearless Oblits? Yes, please! These are some seriously awesome and exciting bonuses.

Highlights:

  1. You may only take units with the Mark of Nurgle, and units that can take the mark, must.
  2. Warlord Trait: Insensate Pain: +1 to your Feel no Pain role for you Warlord.
  3. Artifact: Poxwalker Hive: Pick a unit of Cultists within 7″ and turn them into Zombies. Brains!!!
  4. Their Death Guard Vectorium grants rerolls of 1 for FnP rolls, and Stealth for units in the detachment that are being fired on from over 18″ away. Both awesome traits.

emperors-children

Emperor’s Children

In my opinion, this is dang near equally as good as Death Guard. I seriously love this legion’s rules. For units with VotLW (again, free!) you get Fearless, FnP 6+ (which boosts to a 4+ with their Icon!) and you get to swing one last time before dying in melee. Very cool! As stated, this makes so many units good that were not. I5 Raptors with FnP? Yes, sir! Units of 20 CSMs with FnP 4+, etc. The list goes on. Awesome bonuses.

Highlights:

  1. Can only take units with Mark of Slaanesh, and all units that can take the MoS must do so.
  2. Warlord Trait: Stimulated by Pain: Your Warlord gains 1 Attack each time he loses a wound! Pretty cool. If he regains wounds they go back, but Chaos doesn’t have a lot of options to heal.
  3. Artifact: Intoxicating Elixir: Make D3 rolls on the Combat Drugs table, all effects are cumulative, including with the roll you get in their “Decurion” style detachment. This is pretty bad ass!
  4. Their Emperor’s Children Rapture Battalion grants Combat Drugs to all non-vehicle units which is a D6 table wherein every single result is good! It is a game long buff to WS, BS, St, T, In, or Attacks. WOWZA!

So there you go. That is seriously just the tip of the iceberg! We will dig further into this beautiful bastard as the weeks roll by, but I can say with total sincerity that this is the most exciting supplement Games Workshop has released for 40k in recent memory. My mind is growing crazy with ideas for Chaos Warbands! If you love the fluff, buy this book. If you love Chaos, buy this book. If you love 40k, buy this book. It is pure awesome.

Which is your favorite legion from the preview? 

FOR CHAOS!

And as always, Frontline Gaming sells Games Workshop product at up to 25% off of retail, every day!

Frontline Gaming will buy your used models for cash or store credit!

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About Reecius

The fearless leader of the intrepid group of gamers gone retailers at Frontline Gaming!
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abusepuppy
5 years ago

Also worth noting for Emperor’s Children: their unique Core formation gives Shred to all sonic weapons and if you take the full complement (Lord/Lucius + 6 noise marine squads) all their sonic weapons get +1Str as well. I’ve been fiddling with options on how to run it, but I’m waiting to see the rest of the artifacts and warlord traits.

Have you seen the new psychic disciplines for Nurgle/Slaanesh? I’d love to hear what the three new spells they each get are.

cJ
cJ
5 years ago
Reply to  abusepuppy

Found on dakka.

–Nurgle Disciplne
primaris: Nurgle’s Rot [1]
nova, doesnt affecr mk Nurgle or demon Nurgle S2, AP5, assault D6+1 (Poisone 4+)

Weapon Virus malediction 24″ target unit’s gain Gets Hot [1]
Fleshy abundance blessing friendly psyker w/in 14″ imediately regain D3 wounds lost earlier
Blades of putrefaction blessing range 14″ unit’s melee weapons gain poison 4+, or poison 2+ if they already had 4 [1]
Gift of contagion meldeiction enemy w/in 48″ – roll on table to reduce their stats [1]
Plague wind witchfire 12″ s1 AP 2, large blast poison 4+ [2]
Curse of the Leper friendly or malediction, range 21″, +1 or =1 t strength & tough

-Slaanesh Discipline
primaris Sensory overload witchfire 24″ S4, AP4, assault 4, blind, concussive, pinning [1]
Hysterical Frenzy blessing 12″ roll on table for bonus Init, str, or att [1]
Delightful Agonies blessing 12″ gain FnP 4 [1]
Symphony of Pain malediction 21″, takes 1 BS and WS from target, any sonic weapons shooting this targeted unit add +1 str (cumulative!) [1]
Sonic shockwave nova 9″ S5 AP4 assault D6,pinning, ignores cover [1]
Aural Onslaught beam, 18″ S8, AP2 assault 1, menal anguish (before attack, target takes ldsh test and if fails you reroll to-wounds here) [2]
Apoplectic Glee witchfire 24″ S-special AP – assault 1, ignores cover, ecstacy (no roll to wound, rather all non-vehicles hit themselves using their own unmodified strength [2]

abusepuppy
5 years ago
Reply to  cJ

Hmm. Some pretty decent stuff in there, at least. They’re no Telepathy or Maelific, but honestly that is a good thing.

Appreciated.

CJ
CJ
5 years ago
Reply to  abusepuppy

The ability to regenerate wounds (I assume that’s new, never used nurgle) is surely interesting for big daemon beasties like Magnus.

abusepuppy
5 years ago
Reply to  CJ

The new ones in each discipline are:

-regenerate d3 wounds
-give weapons 4+ (2+) poison
-str and toughness get +/-1

-FNP 4+
-S5 nova
-S8 beam

Nurgle’s ends up with some very solid buffs and some decent (though not amazing) debuffs that sync up pretty well with what the faction wants to be doing anyways. Being able to push basic Nurgle infantry up to T6 or Bikes up to T7 is potentially pretty snazzy, and with the right rolls you could get two -1Str/T debuff spells alsoto really shut down an enemy squad. Actually landing them on a deathstar is really unlikely, but if it worked it would be brutal- imagine reducing a unit of Thunderwolves to T3.

Slaanesh basically has a good mix of buff spells and damaging spells, although the latter are all a bit weird and situational. I wish Apoplectic Glee was better, but “autohit and wound on a 4+” just isn’t that impressive for the most part, even against a horde unit. Aural Onslaught is boss, though.

NovaStar
NovaStar
5 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

You just want to play air guitar every time you shoot with them lol

NovaStar
NovaStar
5 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

And that’s totally awesome!

abusepuppy
5 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

I think i need like 8ish more Noise Marines to be able to field the six units of them, so I’m jumpin’ on that. Now I just need to figure out what to use for support units. I like the idea of Cultists, but I’d need to find some good “horde of metal fans” models to use…

AngryPanda
AngryPanda
5 years ago
Reply to  abusepuppy

You can find AOS bloodchosen of bloody blood dudes in mad max ish leather and such for about a buck per dude on eBay.

Yorrik
Yorrik
5 years ago
Reply to  abusepuppy
Preferred Rob
5 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

If only Sonic Blasters weren’t Salvo in 6th Edition. I miss being able to move, shoot (at full range), and assault with my Noise Marines. I don’t know if Ignores Cover was a fair trade for making them into static campers, and sadly this book doesn’t do anything to help this.

Now, if the Kakophani gave Relentless, that would be a different story. As is, a Emperor’s Children CSM is a better deal than a Noise Marine; otherwise, you’re paying extra points per model solely for the option to spend even more points on noise weapons.

abusepuppy
5 years ago
Reply to  Preferred Rob

Salvo is a bit annoying, but the part that bothers me the most is that you cannot have both a Sonic Blaster and an extra CCW. Noise Marines are nominally a hybrid shooting/assault unit, but they’re prohibited from actually being any good at both things.

Duh_Ruckus
Duh_Ruckus
5 years ago

I haven’t been this pumped for a release in a while, my gang are all starting a chaos army, and since there are 4 of us we are doing thousand sons, death guard, emperors children, and world eaters …. it’s going to be a fun Christmas for chaos

Robert Watson
Robert Watson
5 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

Home run? Seriously? Basically if you are a nurgle player you got some more love. But these rules don’t do fuck all to address the main problems of CSM. Basic CSM units are still crap. Have you looked at Night Lords rules. They suck hard. This book is average at best. Basically Chaos has been fucked over for so long that people seem to happy they got anything at all. Regardless of the fact that pretty much all of the recent releases over the last 4 years have been crap and done nothing to improve the playability of the factions core unit, the Chaos Space Marine, outside of nurgle bikers. %&*^ GW!

Jural
Jural
5 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

Those 2-6 units of obj. secure oblits coming down with an extra HQ makes a CAD of Iron Warriors a POTENT addition to any list. That plus 4 good ways to get fearless automatically improved Chaos;

I’m not sure how anyone can disagree. OK, they will still have some problems with the superfriends, and will never be as efficient as a Wraithknight… but holy crap they are playable now.

Luke
Luke
5 years ago

I’d been struggling for a long time to come up with a way to use my Pre-heresey Deathguard army I’ve had kicking around (made for the Adepticon team tournament years ago), and now finally it looks like I’ve got something promising to work with! None of the loyalist factions really fit the bill, and CSM…well… haven’t been playable since I made the army really.

Quick question though, with free VotLW/fearless/FNP, is there any advantage to running Plagues over regular Marines? Sure they get a plague knife and blight grenades, but that really isn’t worth the extra points.

abusepuppy
5 years ago
Reply to  Luke

Plague Marines don’t have a ton to distinguish them from basic CSM when in the detachment, but they do have some stuff. The poisoned weapon isn’t huge, but it can be handy and lets you fight MCs or bikes a lot more effectively (especially with the changes to grenades.) Defensive grenades are likewise not going to be game-breaker, but they can tilt a close fight in your favor and the ability to Blind enemies is surprisingly useful for shutting down certain types of targets. However, the most relevant bit is that they can get two special weapons in a 5man squad and pay zero points extra for their Champion, which brings them a lot closer in line.

All in all, if you put their loadouts about as close as possible (2x Plasma on the Plague Marines, Plasma/Combi-Plasma + CCWs on the CSM) then the Plague Marines are 25pts more expensive for a basic squad, but have the above-noted advantages. Is it worth it? Maybe not, but I don’t think it’s a case of the basic CSM being hands-down better than PM are, especially since the formation for them gives the -1WS/Init/Toughness aura.

Luke
Luke
5 years ago
Reply to  abusepuppy

Now we just need access to some way to shut down psychic stars in ITC…[cough] Culexus as AoC for everyone[cough]… (and I say this as a Bark-star player)

If you’re going to do that comparison I feel like Chosen/Havocs kind of leave Plagues in the dust, cheaper and can take 4/5 specials if you want that many. The plague formation bonus is pretty nice if you take it all the way to 7, but I think I like the obsec warband better myself.

Obsec Fearless/FNP bikers and Termies with re-roll 1s on FNP and stealth I’m pretty interested to try out.

My first go at a list would probably be something like

Warband Core:
Lord, bike, PF, ADG, MoN
2x 3 Terms, 3 combi-melta
4x 5 CSM, Plasma, combi-plasma, MoN
4x Rhinos
2x 3 Bikers, 2 meltas, MoN
3x 5 Havocs, 2x 2 ACs, 1x 2 LCs, MoN
3x Rhinos

Aux:
5 Spawn, MoN

warsmith117
warsmith117
5 years ago
Reply to  Luke

There is a formation available to them that consists of plague marines which will give a few extra buffs can’t remember what site i saw it on or what exactly it was but with the formation they become relavent again. Also what is the IN of a plague marine been years since i fielded them csm in the legion get a reduction to there’s.

mika
mika
5 years ago

“In their Alpha Legion Insurgency Detachment they gain Shrouded on the first turn and Cultists come back on a 4+!”

I saw that on other websites with leaks and I really don’t get it. The only cultists formation already has a come back on 4+ rule, so what’s up with this detachment bonus?
Can anyone explain?

Oh, and thanks for the review 🙂

WestRider
5 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

They do have a ton of Aux Choices available, but the only one with Culties is The Lost and the Damned, which makes that benefit completely redundant.

abusepuppy
5 years ago
Reply to  mika

It’s not only Alpha Legion that get access to that formation; it overlaps with several of their own bonuses, to be sure, but adding Shrouded and Infiltrate (I think?) to the mix is a significant improvement.

mika
mika
5 years ago

“In their Alpha Legion Insurgency Detachment they gain Shrouded on the first turn and Cultists come back on a 4+!”

I saw that on other websites with leaks and I really don’t get it. The only cultists formation already has a come back on 4+ rule, so whats up with this detachment bonus?
Can anyone explain?

Oh, and thanks for the review 🙂

Malaconia
Malaconia
5 years ago

Does anyone know if the Chaos Lords can still use artefacts from the original codex? If so, I wonder if dimensional key could finally be made to work? I am tweaking my Black Legion army and this is what I’ve gotten so far for 1250pts.

RAPTOR TALON (Auxiliary 1)

Chaos Lord, Lightning Claw, Jump pack (free), Dimensional Key, Warlord (1.st turn DS guaranteed) 105pts

Raptors 5, 2xMelta gun, 115pts

Raptors 5, 2xMelta gun, 115pts

Raptors 5, 2xMelta gun, 115pts

RAPTOR TALON (Auxiliary 2)

Chaos Lord, Lightning Claw, Jump pack (free), 80pts

Raptors 5, 2xMelta gun, 115pts

Raptors 5, 2xMelta gun, 115pts

Raptors 5, 2xMelta gun, 115pts

HOUNDS OF ABADDON (Core)

Chaos Lord, Axe of Blind Fury, MoK (Free), Bike, 120pts

Khorne Berzerkers 5, 105pts

Chaos Space Marines 5, MoK (free) 75pts

Bikers 3, MoK (free) 70pts

Total 1245pts

abusepuppy
5 years ago
Reply to  Malaconia

The problem with the Dimensional Key is that you still need to ‘activate’ it by killing a model first, which is actually very inconvenient. That thing has so many stupid limitations on it.

Derptau
5 years ago
Reply to  abusepuppy

It really will work now with the black legion. Pop your lord in on turn one with burning brand and you’ll definitely kill something first turn.

abusepuppy
5 years ago
Reply to  Derptau

You have to kill them in the combat phase, so it would need to be a Lord from a Raptor Talon. Doing so also assumes that the Lord will stay alive through the enemy’s whole intervening turn and that you chose not to bring in any of your other Deep Strikers along with the Lord’s unit (which is legal, but risky.)

cavalier
cavalier
5 years ago

This is seriously fantastic. As far as I’m concerned… the 40k circle is nearly complete. Still a few armies on the outside looking in (Orks being the main one, I’m not as down on Dark Eldar as everyone else) but the bad-guys are certainly back and I couldn’t be happier. Ever since I started playing in 2nd ed. playing against Chaos has always been the best experience. As a player I want to Chaos to have that intimidation factor when you go up against them. Fantastic stuff can’t wait to start a Chaos army

ryan bridges
ryan bridges
5 years ago

Man i’m going to have trouble selecting which legion I want to play going to the tournaments lol

Ryan Bridges
Ryan Bridges
5 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

Man I love the nurgle, but emperor”s children are calling my name. The potential to get some strength 10 ap3 blast masters with the “decurian” bonus and the psychic power is gnarly

abusepuppy
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Bridges

I’m more pumped for those S5/6 Shred Sonic Blasters. Piling on wounds is often the best way to kill things.

cleverhandle
cleverhandle
5 years ago
Reply to  abusepuppy

I’m an emperor’s children player and honestly, I’m not that stoked on their formation – I think the ++FNP, drugs, fearless and a swing before dying are pretty great* but 3-6 squads of noisemarines with splitfire and shred isn’t great unless you’re only facing horde orks, nids or guard.

To take the full 6 squads to get +1 strength is prohibitively expensive – 800 points to give (6) units of (5) w/ sonic blasters & a blastmaster, and that doesn’t give you any AP2 or any method of tank busting. S9 blastmasters are still going to take a long time to shred through all those free rhinos the space marines are getting

*we need to see how that swing before dying works – I’ve seen conflicting reports that its only a swing if you haven’t already attacked vs just an extra swing like the wolfen get – obviously having I5 guys get an extra punch if they die at I4 is better than only getting that axe to swing if he dies at I4…

abusepuppy
5 years ago
Reply to  abusepuppy

Mmmm. I think Clever is right in one sense- none of this stuff is going to make CSM a force in the top tiers of tournament play.

But on the other hand, I don’t think that it SHOULD make them competitive in that sense. The game has seen too much power creep already; what we really need are updates that bring the bottom tier of codices (DE, GK, BA, SW, IG, Nids, Orks, SoB) up to the middle and then hopefully just wait for updates to the current crop of major offenders in hopes that they eventually get brought in line. Pushing every book up to the top end of the power curve isn’t going to be a good solution, and it isn’t going to result in enjoyable gameplay.

Horton
5 years ago

THERE ARE NOT WORDS!!!!!! This is the most exciting thing ever!!!!!! As a dedicated khorne player, I was driven to KDK, which was fine, I love KDK. But this!!! It will let me go back to my roots!!! World Eaters in competitive 40k!!!! It is a dream come true!!!!!

warsmith117
warsmith117
5 years ago

Well it all looks good so far but to get the best rules for your legion you seem to have to take them in some sort of formation until I see these it’s hard to tell.
While you seem to get some cool stuff moved to troops, if your using these formations thats irrelevant. Maybe it’s just the standard IVth legion cynicism that prevents me from gteting to exited about it.
Tank hunter is nice although my heavy support is built around predetors ,vindicators ,hellbrutes.
Might have to go get me some obliterators.

Voidraven5829
Voidraven5829
5 years ago

IW are a bit of a letdown… There aren’t any barrage weapons in the codex and the only ORD guns are mounted on defilers and vindicators.
And why not havocs as troop instead? IW invented them and had plent of them. Oblits are supposed to be rare and Muties are the product of loving your sword too much in the warp..

winterman
5 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

Obliterators without T5 from MoN though, so a bit fragile. Still a pretty nasty troop option.

abusepuppy
5 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

Yeah 70pts for a Deep Striking gun threat is a very solid way to begin a list.

Traitors8
Traitors8
5 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

Take a Lord of Skulls? LOL! You aren’t serious right? Basically the worst unit in all of wargaming. I guess you are being sarcastic.

Dakkath
Dakkath
5 years ago
Reply to  Traitors8

Sorry, but I think you misspelled “Pyrovore”

beau
beau
5 years ago

Wow so with lucky Psychic phase for deathguard, you could go into combat against SM’s and give them -3 toughness. Reroll to hit, then reroll to wound, and instant death them. Then heal up your Nurgle DP warlord next turn!

Blight
Blight
5 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

I’ve done something similar to wraiths back in 6th edition with my deathguard. It feels amazing instant deathing super tough units with bolters.
It’s less likely than you would think now that a psyker can choose to roll all their powers from their god’s lore.
Throw in some biomancy and you have some very sickly enemies. Then you cast hemorrhage. The look on their face is priceless. (Only done once)

WestRider
5 years ago
Reply to  beau

Forget SM. Think about what happens when you pull that off against something with T3. Spontaneous Existence Failure.

abusepuppy
5 years ago
Reply to  WestRider

Sadly, Maledictions (unless stated otherwise) cannot reduce a unit’s stats below 1. Gotta make that token effort to kill it.

WestRider
5 years ago
Reply to  abusepuppy

But the Plague Formation benefit doesn’t have that restriction. Pull it all together on your Turn, and you get to decide the order, so apply the two Maledictions first, and then the Formation debuff to finish them off.

winterman
5 years ago
Reply to  WestRider

Regardless of order you have still used the malediction to bring a stat to 0 so it wouldn’t work.

WestRider
5 years ago
Reply to  WestRider

Nope. I used Maledictions to lower them to T1. Unless there’s something I’ve missed that specifically says that a Unit affected by a debuff Malediction can’t be reduced past 1 by any other means in combination with that, order does make the difference.

abusepuppy
5 years ago
Reply to  WestRider

Just because a malediction isn’t the _final_ step in reducing them doesn’t mean it isn’t reducing them. It still won’t work.

WestRider
5 years ago
Reply to  WestRider

I’m not trying to be that guy, but I literally cannot see how you guys are getting that reading.
1) Malediction 1 reduces Toughness from 3 to 2 – Legal
2) Malediction 2 reduces Toughness from 2 to 1 – Legal
3) Plague Colony reduces Toughness from 1 to 0. What makes this step illegal? Cite please, because I can’t see it anywhere.

WestRider
5 years ago
Reply to  WestRider

AP, when I talked on Ordo about using Skitarii Vanguard, Rad Grenades, and Enfeeble to do exactly the same thing back when AdMech dropped, you agreed with me that it was legit. What changed in the meantime?

AbusePuppy
AbusePuppy
5 years ago
Reply to  WestRider

The AdMech thing was prior to the GW FAQ on the subject, I believe. Or I was just wrong and forgetting about that rule. 😛

The issue is you keep assuming that the penalties are sequential; they aren’t. It isn’t a case of “apply A, then B, then C,” you just have three continuous effects all applying at the same time. Now, if you charged some Brimstone Horrors with the Plague Marines- yeah, they die without a whimper as the -1T gets rid of them. And if you had some Skitarii Vanguard and Plague Marines working together to kill some T2 guys, then sure that’s fine. But as soon as you start getting the Maledictions in there, they cannot be used to reduce a unit’s Toughness to zero, no matter the “order” you use them in.

The same thing happens with Mark of Tzeentch- you can’t use it to get better than a 3++, even if you apply it “first.”

WestRider
5 years ago
Reply to  WestRider

Where is that in the FAQ (or are you referring to the ITC FAQ)? The only thing I see regarding Maledictions is that you can’t stack the same one on multiple times, and the bit in the Special Rules section on potentially contradictory effects is part of what I’m basing my argument on.

WestRider
5 years ago

I’m really torn on whether I want to dive back into my Alpha Legion, Death Guard, or Emperor’s Children. Probably gonna be the Alphas, they were my first 40K Army, and I’ve kind of been poking at them as a Raven Guard Counts-As anyhow, so I’ve been working on the Models and have them out, but I do have enough Noise Marines to rock their Formation with the bonus, and Relentless Fearless Havocs are unimaginably tempting.

Orthon
Orthon
5 years ago

Do Black Legion get ObSec through Chaos Warband or do they have to use the crapy Black Legion version?

Jamahki
Jamahki
5 years ago

With the Iron Warrior’s special Aux detachment allowing for 1-3 fortifications, will there be a vote or straight up exception to allow this into ITC? Or will the IW decurion need to look elsewhere for its Aux choice?

Tbcx6628
5 years ago

So I know what most of theformations due. anyone know what their decunion, bonuses are please tell me it is different than Traitors Hate…

Requizen
Requizen
5 years ago

Nurgle Bikers in the Vectorium are T6, FNP rerolling 1s, Fearless, ObSec bikes with Stealth when they’re far away. The only think they’re missing is Skilled Rider. This is honestly one of the strongest units in the game and will be abused to extremes.

In fact, Death Guard are essentially Decurion Necrons (FNP is worse than RP but they get that +1T for Nurgle) with ObSec and special/heavy weapon options. If you think Necrons are annoying, these guys are going to take the scene by storm. Alpha Legion is probably better overall with all that Infiltrate ObSec, but both are going to be really popular at top tables I’m betting.

Not that I’m complaining, CSM deserves some time in the sun.

Threllen
Threllen
5 years ago
Reply to  Requizen

They’re still incredibly expensive bikers with no access to the things that actually make bikes good – namely no Skilled Rider, Hit and Run, or access to good weaponry.

Sure they’ll be pretty tough to remove but they’re going to cost you and they have very little offensive firepower plus they’re super easy to tie up in an assault.

CJ
CJ
5 years ago
Reply to  Threllen

Mix in an alpha legion character with mindveil and you essentially gain hit and run.

abusepuppy
5 years ago
Reply to  CJ

Sure, but you’re paying 100+pts for it and it doesn’t solve their other problems (not actually that resilient to many kinds of damage, no Skilled Rider, very limited damage output.)

Threllen
Threllen
5 years ago
Reply to  CJ

Is windveil a relic? Because if you couldn’t repeat it across multiple groups of bikes, it wouldn’t be all that useful.

Plus adding more points to the mix doesn’t really help the matter. Adding an expensive character only really works if you’re going with a deathstar approach which isn’t really what you want to do with CSM bikes. They still have 0 weaponry and there are plenty of guns in the game that could do a lot of damage to them considering they don’t have any easy access to OP cover or invulnerable saves.

Jural
Jural
5 years ago
Reply to  Threllen

Nurgle does have some very killy options coming in now (easy to get poison to 2+ from 4+) so if you hold up the bikes for a turn they are more likely to get free.

Not sold on Nurgle just yet- but at least I’m seeing a few options, which were never there before!

AbusePuppy
AbusePuppy
5 years ago
Reply to  Jural

Nurgle Bikers don’t come with poison weapons, though, so that’s no help to the unit.

I think Nurgle has some good options, and their Bikes are alright in the detachment, they just aren’t half as impressive as people seem to think.

Jural
Jural
5 years ago
Reply to  AbusePuppy

Damn facts- always getting in the way of a good time 😉

Threllen
Threllen
5 years ago

Not sure about the Iron Warriors detachment yet (as someone who painted my entire Chaos force as Iron Warriors). Love the tank hunter, oblits as troops, 6+ FnP, and the warlord trait for allowing oblits to shoot the same weapon in subsequent phases.

However, the re-rolling ordnance/barrage is pretty useless and not being able to mark oblits with Nurgle is going to be really, really crappy. Back to getting 1 shot by S8/S9. That stray lascannon or meltagun shot is no fun…

Traitors8
Traitors8
5 years ago

Wow! I must be missing something, because I don;t see much that improves the faction here. Once again Nurgle gets the majority of the useful rules. So yay, more nurgle biker cheese. Over all pretty disappointing release imo. Nothing here that improves the core problems with the actual Chaos Space Marine unit.

bogalubov
bogalubov
5 years ago
Reply to  Traitors8

There is if you play World Eaters, Emperor’s Children, Death Guard or Iron Warriors. They all have option to go fearless or at least stubborn. Not all Legions or Chapters are created equal, when was the last time you saw a non White Scar battle company at a tournament? Just use the rules that you like with the the models that you like. At least now we don’t have to turn to loyalist rules when cherry picking.

Jural
Jural
5 years ago
Reply to  Traitors8

So I have a ton of Noise Marines (lol- with and without blasters) and I can tell you the combat drugs and ability to get 4+ FNP really helps.

No need to even use the sonic blasters, but if you do, STR 6 and shred is pretty awesome. And you can even do weird things like put 3 sonic blasters in every unit and shoot one target and charge another…

Are they Eldar? No. Will 5 knights ruin my day? Yes. Do they just fold against any competitive list? No- and that’s the shocker.

Ryan Bridges
Ryan Bridges
5 years ago

Do yall think the world eaters 2d6 move gives super heavy walkers the move?

abusepuppy
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Bridges

The 2d6″ move is part of their decurion, which there is no way to include a superheavy walker in.

Ryan Bridges
Ryan Bridges
5 years ago
Reply to  abusepuppy

That’s right, thanks

winterman
5 years ago
Reply to  abusepuppy

The 3 khorne mower formation is presumably an option in the WE decurion and you can sub kytans in by rule. Not sure it will fit at 1850 though.

AbusePuppy
AbusePuppy
5 years ago
Reply to  winterman

Kytan is a superheavy, though, so you can’t take more than one of them under standard ITC rules. Also, I’m pretty sure that formation + the core detachment is well over 1850pts.

omega
omega
5 years ago

Coming form an Iron Warrior, I really dont see the big thing about them. Obsec Olbits is the only good thing worth noting. I dont think we will see them too much in competitve. What do you guys think this supplement will do to comp? I dont want to see my first and only faction have a bunch of death stars and thats it. I hate playing deathstars, i would rather have a super msu army. What legion do you guys think will be able to play well without deathstar use. Great Review tho 🙂

boga
boga
5 years ago
Reply to  omega

I think Iron Warriors are not going to grace the top tables of tournaments, but I think they become usable in friendly games against modern codexes. Within their decurion thing you can easily go MSU with a bunch of cheap marines that are stubborn with Ld 9 even after the champion goes rogue and gets pummeled in close combat. To shooting they will be Ld 10 stubborn. So pretty good.

Emperor’s children seem like good MSU with a lot of crowd control. The noise marine formation with sonic blasters will do a number on Genestealer cult for example.

AbusePuppy
AbusePuppy
5 years ago
Reply to  omega

ObSec Oblits are pretty strong. Tank Hunter on Oblits and Havoks is also pretty strong. (Ask Tau how good rerolling your piles of S7 shots is.) 6+ FNP across all of your guys is a lot better than it seems- it’s one of those “it’s never gonna work” abilities, but once in a while you’ll pass 2-3 of them in a row and really throw your opponent’s plans for a loop. Rerolling ordnance/barrage weapons is pretty mediocre, but if Forge World ever adds anything for them there are a couple of potential options (notably the Infernal Achilles.)

Honestly, I don’t think Traitor’s Hate is going to affect the top tables of tournaments very much. CSM will become a lot more viable for casual players and for those that want to take a wacky/unique army to a tournament, but you aren’t going to see it top 10 at any big events any time soon. Which is probably for the best, as the game doesn’t need any further escalations of the power level.

Omega
Omega
5 years ago
Reply to  AbusePuppy

I agree, but I just want to play my chaos marines in a tournament without having to use loyalists. Im pretty sure DG and EC are the only viable options.

jural
jural
5 years ago
Reply to  Omega

This. So much this 🙂

abusepuppy
5 years ago
Reply to  Omega

I don’t think it’s really reasonable or healthy for the game to have every book be as powerful as, say, Battle Company or Scat Bikes. I think it’s better to have stuff that is strong enough to be playable and enjoyable without breaking the game and then leave the fixes for the worst offenders to the community (since GW obviously isn’t going to do anything.)

Freeman
Freeman
5 years ago

I still think Night Lords are pretty good. Especially as a basis for a star, 2+ cover in the open turn one goes a long way to mitigating the alpha strike. The warband lets you put out a really strong showing for MSU as well.

Can’t wait to get my Night Lords on the table regularly. While they’re not the best here they are certainly usable in a competitive setting, which isn’t something I thought I’d be saying a couple of weeks ago!

Traitors8
Traitors8
5 years ago
Reply to  Freeman

Who’d have thought 2+ cover for the first turn would be meta changing…

Nurglitch
Nurglitch
5 years ago
Reply to  Traitors8

Stormbolt Plate on a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch. It gets a Sv2+, +1 cover on top of Stealth and the +1 for Night Fighting, and re-rolls 1s to save.

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