War Zone Fenris: Wrath of Magnus Review: Dataslates and Special Rules

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Oooooooooh, nelly! We’ve got our hands on a doozy, the new Wrath of Magnus supplement and in this article, we shall review this beauty covering dataslates, Psychic Powers, special rules and wargear. Check the Tactics Corner for more great articles.

This review is based on a first reading of the book, so take it was a grain of salt. I may miss something and my initial opinions may change. Let me know if you disagree with me on any points in the comments section. Also, click here to read a review of the special formations and detachments in the book!

What a cool book! So much awesomeness in this tome it’s hard to know where to begin. We won’t spoil any of the fluff (as it is awesome!) so no worries, there. What we will do is focus on the rules as there is a lot to talk about.

So, first up: the army wide special rules. There’s some cool stuff in here!

Chaos Space Marines

  • Any Chaos Space Marines detachment may be from the Thousand Sons. If they are, they have the following modifications:
    • Only may include Ahriman and/or Magnus the Red as unique special characters. So, no other chaos special characters in your army unless you include them in another detachment. I dig it, it is true to the fluff that way.
    • Units that can take the Mark of Tzeentch must do so. Pricey, but read on to see more of the cool special rules.
    • You can’t take models with any other mark. Restrictive but cool, IMO. This is a 1k Sons army, after all.
    • All units that can take Veterans of the Long War (VotLW) must do so….for free! Nice! That is actually pretty bad ass.
    • Daemon Princes must be Daemons of Tzeentch.
    • Psykers from the Detachment can choose to generate all of their powers from the Discipline of Tzeentch.
  • Blessing of Tzeentch: any unit with VotLW that is affected by a blessing has their invul save improved by 1….WOW. Basically you get an extra (and awesome) buff layered on top of every blessing for free. That is incredible and really helps to offset the high cost per model of the Thousand Sons by increasing all of their durability.
    • Perhaps you just might, maybe see some Chaos Space Marines with this…maybe?! Haha, throw an Exalted Sorcerer into a unit of 20 CSM with the Mark of Tzeentch and they all rock a 5++ and are Fearless! Eh, probably not, but a man can dream, right?!
    • A combo that will really resonate with some players will be to use this on a Lord of Tzeentch on a Disc with the Sigil of Corruption to get that sweet 2++Edit: MoT limits you to a 3++ maximum, sorry. -Ed
  • Blood Feud: Space Wolves and Thousand Sons don’t like one another…any unit with VotLW reroll failed to hit rolls when attacking Space Wolves, but Wolves in return get Hatred (Thousand Sons). Pretty brutal but probably benefits Wolves more as even though they only get it for one round, they tend to be much better in melee. Characterful rule, though.
  • Legacy of the Rubricae: Rubric Marines are troops.

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Warlord Traits

  • Arrogance of Aeons: Warlord gains Adamantium Will and can reroll a single dice with they Deny the Witch.
  • Undying Form: Warlord gains Eternal Warrior.
  • Aetherstride: Warlord and his unit are not slowed by difficult terrain and do not suffer the initiative penalty for charging through difficult terrain.
  • Lord of Forbidden Lore: Warlord knows an additional psychic power.
  • Walker of the Webway: Warlord and his unit gain Deep Strike. If they already had Deep Strike, they do not scatter when Deep Striking.
  • Lord of Flux: Enemy units within 12″ of your Warlord treat all terrain, even open ground, as difficult terrain. Additionally, any enemy units that run, trubo-boost, move flat out or charge within that radius must take dangerous terrain tests.

Some really solid Warlord Traits in there! I think this really gives the Strategic table a run for its money. I especially like Lord of Flux for the chance to deal incidental damage and slow units down. Eternal Warrior is always hot, and the ability to Deep Strike with a unit–potentially without scattering–is excellent.

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Artefacts

  • Astral Grimoire: In the movement phase, the bearer of a friendly infantry unit within 12″ and that unit gains the Jump unit type. Confirmed that this is an “friendly” infantry unit, so Battle Brothers would count. Jump Zombies, Terminators, etc. are now a thing! -Ed.
  • Seer’s Bane: A Daemon Weapon with the following profile: Strength as user, AP 2, Force and Daemon Weapon with the Bane of Wisdom rule: the strength of the weapon is equal to the bearer’s Leadership characteristic (except against vehicles) as strength and the target’s Leadership characteristic as their Toughness. Use the targets normal Toughness for the purposes of Instant Death.
  • Helm of the Third Eye: Gives the bearer and their unit Overwatch even if they have Slow and Purposeful, and gives them BS2 Overwatch if they do not have S&P.
  • Staff of Arcane Compulsion: Melee weapon, Strength +2, AP 4, Concussive, Force, Repelling Sweep: enemy units charging the bearer or his unit suffer a -2 penalty to their charge roll.
  • Coruscator: Ranged weapon: 12: range, Strength 4, AP 3, Pistol, Blast, Soul Blaze
  • Athenaean Scrolls: If the bearer passes a psychic check with two or more of the same number on the dice, the power can’t be stopped by a Deny the Witch roll.

Holy crap, some powerful kit in there! Even the Daemon Weapon (which normally are a bit lame) is very good in this case being also a Force Weapon. You can do some work on your opponent with that weapon, and if Fatey is around to reroll that damn 1 when it pops up, then the weapon is highly reliable, too.

The Athenaean Scrolls will be highly popular for that caster that has a particularly strong psychic power that you really want to get off. I am also drawn to the Astral Grimoire as it works on Friendly units, giving you a HUGE range of units it can work on. That increased speed and mobility are very powerful.

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Discipline of Tzeentch

  • These are the same as in the Chaos Space Marines book (Tzeentch’s Firestorm, Boon of Mutation, Doombolt and Breath of Chaos) with four additional new powers.
  • Siphon Magic: WC 1, Blessing that targets the Psyker. Anytime friendly psykers successfully manifest a power within 18″ of the caster, he gets an extra Warp Charge die he can use in that phase.
  • Baleful Devolution: WC 2, Focused Witchfire, 18″, Strength 6, AP 2, Assault D6, Transmogrify: to wound rules of a 6 cause Instant Death. If a model is slain in this manner, they become a Chaos Spawn under the Tzeentch player’s control.
  • Treason of Tzeentch: WC 3, Malediction that allows the caster to take over an enemy unit and have them shoot as if they were one of your units in the shooting phase, counting as having held still. The unit then must take a pinning check.
  • Gaze of Magnus: WC 5, Beam, 18″, Strength D, AP 1, Assault 1, Soul Blaze.

Again, WOW. Some powerful attacks in there. Gaze of Magnus, while having a high Warp Charge, is devastating! A Beam D weapon? Yikes. Similarly, Treason of Tzeentch can be utterly devastating. Shooting an entire enemy unit at another enemy unit can change the course of the game. I don’t know if you would take this school over the others very often as there are a number of so-so powers, but for a model that can slang a high number of Witchfires like Ahirman, it may be appealing in come instances.

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Armoury of the Thousand Sons

  • Warpflame Weapons: These are your standard flamer weapons but with one better AP (Heavy Warpflamer is AP3, for example) and Warpflame. Very powerful weapons! I love Flamers and these are exceptional versions of them.
  • Inferno Weapons: the standard AP3 Bolter weapons Rubric Marines are known for. The new ones are the Inferno Combi-Bolter (AP3 Combi-Bolter) and the super, mega awesome Soulreaper Cannon! This beast is the Assault Cannon looking weapon and packs a wallop: 24″, Strength 5, AP 3, Heavy 4, Rending.
  • Hellfyre Missile Rack: 24″, Strength 8, AP 3, Heavy 2

Man, those Soulreaper Cannons are sweet! The Chaos “Cyclone Missile Launcher” is very cool, too. I think Thousand Sons players will be very pleased with these bad boys.

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  • Ahriman: at 230pts, he’s pricey, but he also packs a punch. He’s Fearless, has 3 wounds (great for a sorcerer) and is Mastery Level 4. All cool. He makes Rubric Marines Troops and knows dang near every school of psychic powers: Biomancy, Daemonology (Malefic), Divination, Ectomancy, Geomortis, Heretech, Pyromancy, Sinistrum, Telekensis, Telepathy and Tzeentch…wow! He bears his customary Black Staff which allows him to attempt to manifest the same Witchfire up to three times, is Strength +2, AP 4 and a Force weapon. The kicker is that he can take a Disc of Tzeentch for +1 attack and changing his unit type to Jetbike, which gives him considerable mobility.
    • Ultimately, I think he still falls pretty short. He’s expensive and while yes, Mastery 4 is cool, you can get a Mastery 3 Exalted Sorcerer for 185 points that can also take the all important Spell Familiar. I would love to be wrong and see someone rock Ahiriman who flies around blasting people with Witchfires, but I just don’t see him getting much tabletime outside of cool Formations.

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  • Exalted Sorcerer: an even craftier Sorcerer than the normal Sorcerer! Jokes aside, this guy is pricey at 160pts base but is pretty studly. He has an extra wound, point of Initiative and BS over a normal Sorcerer. He starts out at Mastery 2, and can go up to 3 for 25pts. He comes stock with the Mark of Tzeetch and can use all of the same powers as Ahriman. He also gains access to Chaos Rewards and Artefacts as well as a Disc of Tzeentch. Once per game he can use his Lord of the Silver Tower ability similar to a Chapter Master. It is range: Unlimited, Strength 9, AP 2, Heavy 1, Blast, Lance. Oh, and did I forget to mention? He’s also Fearless…boom!
    • He is not cheap, but he gives you a lot. With Mastery 3, an extra wound, good mobility on a Disc and the ability to take a Spell Familiar, he’s very reliable. The Helm of the Third Eye would work great for him, allowing him to even further amplify your psychic dominance when used n concert with say, a Sorcerer Cabal. The Athenaean Scrolls would be another solid choice for him, allowing him to increase his odds of getting off that vital Invisibility, for example. The question comes down to if you think paying the premium price is worth it for the perks over the simpler, cheaper Sorcerer. For me, the Fearless bonus alone makes him awesome for Chaos who can really struggle with morale. Slap him in a big unit of Tzaangors or Cultists, etc. and they become very reliable.

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  • Tzaangors: ported over form Age of Sigmar, this light infantry unit is pretty cool! Tzeentch armies can be very light on models, and that is where Tzaangors come in. Rocking a Guardsman statline but with WS and T 4, they’re not bad. The 6++ save is a bit rough, but that is not a big deal: they’re cannon fodder and that extra 16.67% of durability does add up with big units. They come stock with either 2 close combat weapons, or with an Autopistol and Chainsword. One of them can be upgraded to a Twistbray (Sarge).
    • At 70pts for the unit of 10, and the ability to go up to units of 30, these guys are great for board control, taking objectives and forming the grist of an all Tzeentch Deathstar. With a 6++ and T4, they’re significantly more durable than your average light infantry unit. I think these guys are great for upping your model count and adding some durability to a Tzeentch army. Honestly, these will probably for the default troop choice in most Tzeetch armies that don’t utilize other detachments for that role. Objective Secured is still a tournament winning ability.

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  • Rubric Marines: Not much has changed about these guys…unfortunately. Sigh. Well, they got some new options but as is, are still massively overpriced. 23pts per model, 150pts for the first 5 including the Sorcerer who can only take Tzeentch powers (although, thankfully those are improved a bit). They can take Warpflamers on any model which could be VERY powerful…but then you’re paying 30pts per Rubric Marine. Ouch. The real kick in the pants though, is that you can only take 1 Soulreaper cannon per 10 models.
    • They are still very underwhelming, unfortunately. The new models are just beautiful but I doubt you will see them outside of their formations which make them significantly better. Yes, they can go up to a 4++ quite easily (Edit: they jump to a 3++ due to a base 5++, +1 for MoT, +1 for Blessing of Tzeentch for a 3++) thanks to the Blessing of Tzeentch special rule, but Tzaangors just give you a lot more, IMO. I want to be wrong, though! Let me know in the comments if you think they’re worth taking now outside of casual and narrative play. Their formations certainly breathe a lot more life into them, but do you all think they could be taken as Troops in a CAD and succeed? With that 3++ though, in their formations allowing you to reroll 1’s, they become VERY durable. That is likely going to be the secret to making them work, but it puts some strong limitations on your list building options.
    • Oh, and did I mention the models are amazing enough times? Check out the sprues, so much to work with!

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  • Scarab Occult Terminators: So beautiful….but so EXPENSIVE. Holy cow, these guys cost a lot of points. 250 base for 5, including the sorcerer, and another 40pts per Terminator thereafter. Are they worth it? Let’s dig in to find out more. They have normal Terminator stats but with a Power Weapon on each model. Interestingly, they don’t have Slow and Purposeful like the Marines, but they do have AP 3 Combi-Bolters which is pretty cool. The Sorcerer is Mastery Level 2 with a plethora of psychic disciplines to choose from and an extra wound which is nice. The unit can take a Heavy Warpflamer or Soulreaper Cannon per 5 Terminators and interestingly can also take a Hellfyre Missile Rack per 5 (so two heavy weapons in a unit of 5).
    • Bottom line: these stunningly beautiful models are just too expensive. When you factor in the bells and whistles, a unit of 5 runs you around 300pts. That is just flat out too much for 1 wound models. Now, in their formations where they can reroll saves of 1 (which yeah, an army with built in 2+ reroll saves….I die inside a little bit) they clearly become significantly resilient. With a base 4++, easily buffed to a 3++, again rerolling 1’s, they become super tough. But that takes a lot of points to pull off and essentially writes your list for you. Not complaining about it, just noting that if you want those uber-Terminators, you pay through the nose for it (which is probably for the best).
    • While the formations solve the durability issues, the Scarab Occult Terminators also don’t hit super hard. AP 3 Combi-Bolters is awesome but if their target unit is in cover or 2+ armor, it really blunts the impact a lot and a Strength 4 Power Sword is…well, a Strength 4 Power Sword. The AP 3 Heavy Flamer is boss, though. What do you all think about these fellas?

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  • The man, himself: Magnus the Red: The big cheese, the head honcho, the main event! This is what everyone has been so excited to see, and for good reason! The return of a Primarch to the current timeline of Warhammer 40,000! This is so cool, and something most of us never thought would happen, but here we are. Let’s dive into this beast.
  • He’s got an impressive stat-line! Also, against what many had speculated he’s not a Gargantuan Creature but a Flying Monstrous Creature. This to me is a good thing. He is more accessible to “normal” play. This may not jive with the mental image many have of him, but I’d rather see him on more tabletops than not, so this was the right call, IMO. He rocks WS and BS 7, Strength 8, Toughness 7, 7 Wounds and Initiative, 6 Attacks, Leadership 10 and a 4+ save. He also weighs in at 650pts, base, so not cheap. He’s got a host of special rules:
    • Adamantium Will
    • Daemon of Tzeentch
    • Deep Strike
    • Eternal Warrior
    • Fearless
    • Fleet
    • It Will Not Die
    • Psyker level 5
    • Veterans of the Long War
    • Unearthly Power: harnesses Warp Charge on a 2+
    • The Lord of Flux Warlord Trait
    • Omniscient Eye: Magnus has LoS to every model on the table when determining the targets of his psychic powers.
    • Knows the Gaze of Magnus ability and all of the Tzeentch and Change powers. This is his biggest weakness as the powers he has access to are more limited. Gaze of Magnus will be the go to in most cases, but summoning in more units is always awesome, and a second option for a D shot isn’t bad, either.
  • His wargear is similarly impressive: The Blade of Magnus is Strength user, AP 2, Force, Soul Blaze and Transmogrify (which can turn models into Chaos Spawn). The Crown of Crimson Kings gives Magnus a 4++ and lets him ignore Perils…wow!
    • So there he is and what a beast! With a blessing on him, he’s rocking a 3++, is highly mobile, can see everything on the table for mind bullets, and generates and harnesses Warp Charge like a boss. His lack of diversity in powers is a bit of a drawback but his purpose is pretty clear: he blasts things with magic laser beams and can also kick their butts in melee. I see him as a mobile gunship, flying around reliably blasting high value targets and hidden scoring units with psychic powers. His speed and ability to ignore LoS in the psychic phase really makes him a scary model. He’s highly durable and doesn’t really need a lot of support. If needs be can come down to the ground to tango with his powerful Blade of Magnus, he most certainly can. Is he worth 650pts? I think so. He’s very hard to hurt, he packs a vicious punch and is versatile. Is he worth 650pts compared to other units you can take for those points? Eh, maybe not, but that will depend on the player. I don’t think you will go wrong if you decide to put him in your list and the combos you can pull with allies such as Fateweaver get nasty, but also eat up most of your points. What combos do you think you can pull with Magnus? Do you think he is worth the hefty price tag? And it bears repeating: what a bad ass model! Which head option would you go with?

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Chaos Daemons

There’s some cool stuff to be had in the Daemon section of the book and one, big issue, lol. Pink Horrors….GW, what have you done!?

Melodramatics aside, let’s dig in!

  • Warp Storm of Tzeentch: They have an altered version of the Warp Storm table which is slightly more Tzeenthified!
  • Daemonic Gifts of Tzeentch: There are some new Loci for Tzeentch units which compliment or replace the older versions.

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  • Pink Horrors: What…the…I sincerely hope I am not reading these rules right (and please correct me if I missed something) but this is the most powerful troop unit in the game now by a country mile and is going to cause very real problems. Why do I say this? For one, simple reason: Split. Split is a new special rule that brings an old rule back into the game. Pink Horrors that are killed split into two Blue Horrors in each phase. So you kill a few Pink Horrors in the shooting phase: they spawn a new unit (which is a Psyker). Kill some more in the assault phase? The first unit of Blue Horrors gets bigger or you form an entirely new unit. Shave off some more in the psychic phase? Repeat the process. These then morph into a base of 2 Brimstone Horrors in the same way. All of these units are Psykers, Daemons of Tzeentch (with a 5++, rerolling 1’s), Psykers, can Deep Strike, etc. The issue is that (again, unless I missed something) a 90 point unit of Pink Horrors gives you 250 points of units: 10 Pinks (90pts) to 20 Blues (50x2pts) to 20 Brimstone Horrors (30x2pts) which can be spread out over easily a dozen units. These units can all contribute warp charge and are all able to also summon in other units…yeah. We’ll talk about this more in a second.

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  • Blue Horrors: Just link Pink Horrors, but cheaper. Sure they’re Toughness and Strength 2, but who cares? They give you everything Pink Horrors do at nearly half the price. They lack some of the bells and whistles but you get cheap warp charge and more psychic powers from them. They’d be an auto-take troop if weren’t for the fact that there’s an even MORE efficient choice coming right up!

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  • Brimstone Horrors: Say hello to the best troop in the game! If it weren’t for the fact that every choice above it creates it, these little buggers on their own merit would be king. For a measly 30pts you get a troops choice that Deep Strikes, has Objective Secured in a CAD, has a 5++, rerolling 1’s, is a Psyker and can be taken in units of up to 20, 2 wound models. Yes, they are only toughness 1, but who cares? They can go to ground in cover for a 3+, rerolling 1’s, generate Warp Charge, have an invul and come stock with 20 wounds. Anything that doesn’t have a strength value or is only strength 1 (sorry, Dark Eldar!) will take twice as much firepower to chew through these guys than the Blue Horrors….who cost more points but are vastly inferior (but are still an incredible Troops choice on their own merit). Yeah, for 30 points this unit over-performs by a mile. What do you all think? Would you like a 30pt psyker with 20 wounds, an invul save, rerolls saves of 1 and can deep strike in your army?

The issue here is that a single troops choice can spawn double digit units, all of which are psykers, all of which can summon, all of which are reasonably durable, all of which are troops, can score objectives, shoot units….it’s crazy. This is so incredibly disruptive that I am left scratching my head. How do we deal with this? If you take 6 units of Pink Horrors you will end up with a total of 1,500 points of units waiting to spawn onto the tabletop (before amplifying that output via the Loci!). If you shoot a unit but don’t kill it, you spawn legions of more units.

How would you deal with this? Do you think it’s too much or not such a big deal? Off the cuff, I am left feeling that this is way too much. Let me know your thoughts because it gets even crazier:

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Daemonic Loci of Tzeentch

  • Lesser Locus of Transmogrification: Causes auto-hits on units as Horrors are killed: strength 3 hit for Pinks, 2 for Blues, 1 for Brimstones.
  • Lesser Locus of Metamorphosis: The bearer and its unit have It Will Not Die.
  • Great Locus of Change: Roll a D6 each, the bearer of the Loci and models in its unit substitute this number for their strength.
  • Greater Locus of Trickery: Roll a D6 each turn. When enemy units target the bearer of this Loci or its unit and roll the same number count as a 1 instead.
  • Exalted Locus of Conjuration: This model and all models in its unit add 1 to the Strength of all hits caused by psychic powers they manifest.
  • Exalted Locus of Creation: Each time a Pink Horror in the bearer of the Loci’s unit dies, it creates 4 Blue Horrors instead of two. Blue Horrors subsequently split into two Brimstone Horrors….oh sweet baby Emperor of mankind, Pooor quuueeee?!?!

So, yeah. You take a few units of 20 Pink Horrors with the Exalted Locus of Creation and they can spawn 80 Blue Horrors, each. These in turn can spawn 80 Brimstone Horrors. These can all appear in a staggering number of units, each of whom is a psyker….wow. This is not good.

What do you all think? Ignore the unit? Let them blast you with powers all game? I don’t have an answer off the cuff, but want to play it a bit to see. This combined with Daemon Summoning just creates mind numbing volumes of free units.

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There you have it! One of the more exciting releases in quite some time with cool rules, brilliant models and of course, the return of a Primarch! What do you think of it?

And as always, Frontline Gaming sells Games Workshop product at up to 25% off of retail, every day!

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About Reecius

The fearless leader of the intrepid group of gamers gone retailers at Frontline Gaming!

167 Responses to “War Zone Fenris: Wrath of Magnus Review: Dataslates and Special Rules”

  1. abusepuppy November 26, 2016 1:19 am
    #

    >A combo that will really resonate with some players will be to use this on a Lord of Tzeentch on a Disc with the Sigil of Corruption to get that sweet 2++.

    You can’t use Mark of Tzeentch to get a 2++; it explicitly caps you at a 3++, no better. +1 to invulns when you have a blessing up is nice for characters and Thousand Sons squads, but it’s really bad for CSM or other units because the Mark only gives you a 6++ base. 5++ with benefit of the Blessing just isn’t good enough to be worth as many points as you have to invest into it.

    The Tzentch discipline is a lot better and has some real power spells (thanks for letting me shoot with your Stormsurges!), but it also still has some weak/garbage stuff on it. I’m assuming the Primaris is unchanged, which is just total garbage, and Boon of Mutation is similarly awful. I’m guessing that Gaze of Magnus is only available to the big man himself, so it’s not really “part” of the discipline for most intents in purposes.

    The warlord traits have a couple good ones in there, but also have some quite lackluster ones as well. 12″ bubble of difficult is mediocre but potentially useful against Battle Company. No-scatter Deep Strike is pretty good, if not a blowout. An extra power is cool, but still limited in scope. Eternal Warrior and Adamantium will are both situational garbage that only apply to one model. Not being slowed by terrain is incredibly underwhelming, since Tzeetch isn’t exactly stellar in close combat anyways.

    Thousand Sons do have a 4++ base, which is decent, but yeah 23pts/model is a LOT to ask for them. They really needed to cut down the base price of that Aspiring Sorcerer to make them viable outside of their formation- but when you’re getting two power rolls instead of one, that helps a lot. I mean, hell, line them up against Legion of the Damned and they look pretty shabby- worse statline, worse abilities, worse save, worse options.

    Magnus is a big, bad dude but if he’s not in the detachment he’s only running a 4++ save (and can’t access Cursed Earth or Grimoire on his own), so dragging him down with wounds isn’t _too_ unreasonable. T7 will make it more difficult, but there are definitely armies that can do it, and 650pts is a huge chunk of the army to be dedicated to that one unit with limited maneuverability.

    Brimstone Horrors are…. huh. Two wounds with Toughness 1 is utterly bizarre- there certainly are weapons that won’t instant death them (Snipers, Psychic Shriek, etc, etc) but even so. The whole “chaining down” thing is absolutely ludicrous, although it will deserve a deeper reading of exactly how the rule works.

    • Reecius
      Reecius November 26, 2016 7:39 am
      #

      Good points, buddy. And I agree, the rules as written for Horrors right now are bananas. I want to play it to get a good feel for it but on paper, my goodness.

      I love the book in general and encourage those who love the fluff and/or Chaos to pick it up as it is a great addition to the game. But yeah, Horrors. Whhhy?!?! Lol, you could easily add several thousand free points to your army.

      • abusepuppy November 26, 2016 7:51 am
        #

        I haven’t seen the rules yet, so there’s a lot of things that could mitigate them. Do you get the “spawns” If a unit is completely wiped out? Does it trigger off of damage caused from failed Instability tests? How are the models placed? Etc.

        But right out of the gate, yeah, it is absolutely insane. I mean, if nothing else, taking three turns to kill a single squad (Pink -> Blue -> Flame) is crazy good.

        • Reecius
          Reecius November 27, 2016 1:22 am
          #

          You do get them if they are completely wiped out, just not if they die to Daemonic Instability. It is actually quite explicit on that point. The models are placed within 6″ of the first unit. If no Blues (or Brimstones) within 6″, you form a new unit. The really wild thing is that they appear at the end of each phase, so you can’t shoot the unit that pops out in that turn, you have to wait. So if it is the last turn of the game, they can pop onto an objective and that is a wrap.

          It is as crazy as it sounds. I read it over and over to see if I was missing something but depending on how you pull casualties, you can create a new unit each phase, each turn. That is unlikely to occur, but 100% a possibility. It maybe the most crazy rule I have seen in the game in a long, long time. We’ll have to play-test if of course (things are often not as crazy as you think when you actually put it on the table) but the idea of a renewing troops that gives you 250 points for a 90 point investment that literally cannot be destroyed in anything less than 3 phases of the game (often three turns) is truly bonkers.

          • beau November 27, 2016 9:35 am
            #

            These guys work for regular Codex: Daemons too right? So I can use my 1500 pt Tzeentch Incursion list from the first Wulfen book that was 9 units of 11 horrors, Belakor, and a unit of furies? Can I then give the herald in that formation that gives a 12 locus bubble the new locus so every pink horror in my army then benefits from splitting? Unbeatable if so.

          • Reecius
            Reecius November 27, 2016 1:15 pm
            #

            They are Daemon troops, yes.

    • Tzeentch Dude November 27, 2016 9:31 pm
      #

      It was previously possible to establish proper point values for units in relation to one another (although that didn’t mean GW did it very often).

      Now it is almost inconceivable to do so correctly because of formation buffs.

      GW seems to think being a psyker is worth a first born cold. That is a curious view point considering psykers outside if formations gbecame

    • WrentheFaceless November 28, 2016 7:58 am
      #

      Man, killjoy much?

  2. tooks November 26, 2016 1:36 am
    #

    New Pink Horrors… wow.

    Although I must wonder how much actual use their rule will get, mainly due to the cost of acquiring all the models. On paper it seems like it could be a huge issue but in actuality I don’t think this will cause a big shakeup outside of small circles that are willing to dedicate that much money on one unit.

    • Reecius
      Reecius November 26, 2016 7:31 am
      #

      The number of models is the biggest limitation but that has never stopped dedicated competitive gamers, before.

      • Ytook November 26, 2016 7:52 am
        #

        I dunno, blue and brimstone horrors have been a thing in AoS for a while now and no one uses them.

        I suppose AoS has summoning points that confuses things with horrors, but only get 4 of each in one silver tower box is massively limiting.

        • Happy_Inquisitor November 27, 2016 6:49 am
          #

          The model availability is only really limiting in GW tournaments. Elsewhere dubious count-as models (such as grots for blues) hastily rattle-can painted blue and red are going to proliferate if this rule is allowed.

          I hate to be one to jump to conclusions or wield the nerf-hammer but I think I will just not bother with any tournaments that let the Split rule work this way unless or until someone can show how pink horror spam can be controlled – or even how to get the game to ever go beyond turn 3. Honestly I’d rather spend the weekend painting the kitchen than dealing with that.

          • beau November 27, 2016 9:52 am
            #

            I converted a bunch of brimstones from a couple of nurglings boxes + greenstuff. Blue horrors will be more pricey though…

          • Ytook November 27, 2016 2:20 pm
            #

            Fair play, good thing the ITC vote’s upcoming 😛

    • abusepuppy November 26, 2016 7:53 am
      #

      It’s a limiter, yeah, but realistically it’s not gonna be a big one- too easy to convert/proxy up some “blue horrors” and use them in place of the official models.

      The real danger isn’t a player taking 6×20 Pink Horrors and getting a billion points of free dudes- as with summoning, the danger is that it’s a low-cost way to support other strategies while also holding objectives. Buy 3×11 Pinks to fill your troop slots and you’re generating an easy six warp charge or more every turn.

    • Mike November 28, 2016 2:44 am
      #

      I actually have a ton of Pink and Blue horrors sitting around. They are parts of armies I acquired over the years, but never had a use for. I imagine I am not the only person who can say this… let’s not assume this will not show up often.

  3. Dakkath November 26, 2016 1:36 am
    #

    the answer to the horrors is going to be blasts and templates. Lots of them. Anything that can shoot multiples.

    • Reecius
      Reecius November 26, 2016 7:32 am
      #

      Sort of. They appear at the end of the phase, so you can’t kill the new ones in the same turn. It’s going to be annoying in the extreme. And don’t forget, they can all go to ground for a 3+ rerolling 1’s. They’re not easy to kill, even with low toughness.

    • highwind November 28, 2016 11:41 am
      #

      The answer to Horrors is melee combat… They have a statline of a Guardsman and cant even overwatch, so they WILL lose combat and consequently suffer from DI, which doesnt create smaller Horrors

      • Nurglitch November 28, 2016 12:09 pm
        #

        No no, you’re doing it wrong, you’re supposed to be panicking!

      • Reecius
        Reecius November 28, 2016 12:27 pm
        #

        They don’t always all die to DI. Yes, that certainly is the better bet, but it is not a certainty by any stretch of the imagination. I like the positive outlook, though.

      • abusepuppy November 28, 2016 12:48 pm
        #

        The casualties from melee combat _do_ spawn more Horrors, though, so while you’ll cut down on the number of free guys they get somewhat, they are still going to get a bunch of them. Also, that requires getting into melee, which is going to give them 2-4 turns to do what they want before you arrive.

        • Reecius
          Reecius November 28, 2016 2:48 pm
          #

          Yeah, exactly. It is a two step process.

        • Grendal1989 November 29, 2016 7:27 am
          #

          I guess this’ll give more incentive for the deepstrike and charge units like the Skyhammer Assault Marines.

          • abusepuppy November 29, 2016 8:39 am
            #

            Yes, all three formations that let you do that for Space Marines only. Because fuck those other factions, why give them a chance?

      • Threllen November 30, 2016 3:07 pm
        #

        Well you better not kill too many of the Horrors yourself… because those ones do come back. Also, it takes multiple turns just to get to close combat.

        So let’s say turn 3 or 4 you finally get to the pink horrors. You kill some in close combat. They spawn blue horrors. Then you have to wait until NEXT turn to kill those ones. Then the ones you kill turn into brimstone horrors. Now you have to wait until ANOTHER turn to kill the brimstones…. 3 full turns to kill a troop (and that’s only if you wipe out the entire squad each turn) is ridiculous.

  4. Bomtek80 November 26, 2016 2:17 am
    #

    First, I think the Thousand Sons and Tzeentch just came back with a vengeance! CSM and Tzeentch daemon players should be celebrating the world over. Now, that being said, the new TS units aren’t perfect but the combination of Legion rules, Exalted Sorcerers, access to plenty of psychic power, abundance of ap3 bolters and new weapons, Tzaangors as cheap and somewhat durable troops and currently the only Primarch in 40k…definitely make this a new army a meta changer I bet.

    Second, I’m curious what drugs GW game testers were doing when they gave Pink Horrors this old ability back. I’m not saying you shouldn’t houserule this out of existence, but a a slight nerf wouldn’t be out of the question. Wow…just…wow…

    • Reecius
      Reecius November 27, 2016 1:16 pm
      #

      We’ll wait and see how everyone feels about it but yeah, at first glance it is a bit crazy.

      • Nurglitch November 29, 2016 8:30 am
        #

        That’s what was said about Summoning and Horrors, and it’s less impressive to actually experience.

  5. Ninalexander November 26, 2016 3:00 am
    #

    >Brimstone horrors have 2 wounds with 1 toughness
    what is even the of the multiple wounds? Anything above strength 2 would instant death them.
    As a Daemons player any changes are always interesting, and the new Horrors look extremely good. The best plan would honestly be to ignore them and focus fire on the larger targets: remember, even the really tough FMC’s in a Daemons army will fall to enough bolter fire. Also, you could surround them so that there isn’t room to spawn new units. Just a couple suggestions, but I wouldn’t run more than 2 units of pink horrors with the new rules outside of competitive.

    • Reecius
      Reecius November 26, 2016 7:30 am
      #

      There are actually a lot of things that just do wounds with no strength value, or are strength 1 or X (like Poison Weapons).

      Horrors looks straight up broken, lol. I want to put them on the table before passing final judgement but the volume of free points you get makes Battle Ccompany look like a joke.

    • beau November 27, 2016 9:55 am
      #

      They are casters too, so the extra wound is for perils or maybe instability tests? Also sniper rifles and poison weapons won’t ID them.

      • Reecius
        Reecius November 27, 2016 1:16 pm
        #

        Exactly. They’re incredibly good.

        • Nurglitch November 28, 2016 11:57 am
          #

          Instability is going to be interesting.

  6. Jack November 26, 2016 3:36 am
    #

    The gaze of magnus is a spell it doesn’t say only magnus can use so yes sorcerers can use it if they roll ot and ahriman

    • abusepuppy November 26, 2016 7:56 am
      #

      The question is, is it on the Tzeentch table? Because that would give us seven powers plus the Primaris. Pretty hard to roll a 7 on d6.

      • Peteypab November 26, 2016 11:34 pm
        #

        It isnt a spell yoy can roll on the Tzeentch table.

  7. Calle November 26, 2016 4:17 am
    #

    Does the pink/blue horrors still split into two even if they get killed with instant death? If not they will be easy to handle with Strength 6 and above on the pink horrors and Strength 4 on the blue horrors. Anything will instant death the brimstone horros so the 2 wounds hardly count. Even grots can kill them 🙂

    • Reecius
      Reecius November 26, 2016 7:32 am
      #

      Yup, only Daemonic Instability ignores the Split rule, IRRC. It’s pretty bonkers.

      • Rob November 27, 2016 4:10 am
        #

        Helfrost would negate it unless the rule specifically says removed. RAW on helfrost make it ignore eternal warrior, reanimation protocols as the model is not killed but completely removed from the game.

        • Reecius
          Reecius November 27, 2016 1:17 pm
          #

          I do not think Helfrost makes any difference. When the Pink is destroyed it is replaced with 2-4 Blue Horrors. Instant Death, etc. doesn’t stop it. The only thing that appears to stop it is if you fail a Daemonic Instability test that removes the entire unit.

      • Calle November 28, 2016 12:55 am
        #

        That’s crazy! No possibility for the attacker to deal with them at all? So sad when a strategic game loses some strategic manuverability..

        • Nurglitch November 29, 2016 8:31 am
          #

          Instability is the possibility.

  8. Fagerlund November 26, 2016 4:45 am
    #

    Isn’t 1k sons 4++ by default with Dark Aura (5++) and Mark of Tzeentch? So the blessing would make them 3++?

    • Reecius
      Reecius November 26, 2016 7:33 am
      #

      Good points, guys.

  9. Rasmus Olesen November 26, 2016 4:56 am
    #

    Yah i read this as they are 4++ and if they have any blessing on them they go 3++

    • Reecius
      Reecius November 26, 2016 7:33 am
      #

      Good points, guys.

  10. Cephalobeard November 26, 2016 5:25 am
    #

    I’m so curious as to what his WT does, and if his Formation that allows him to be taken does, if anything.

    I plan on getting him. However, I plan on running him with Daemons.

    • abusepuppy November 26, 2016 5:44 am
      #

      Lord of Flux makes all terrain within 12″ of him count as difficult for enemy units. It’s pretty decent.

  11. Acheron November 26, 2016 5:52 am
    #

    Each base of brimstone horrors has two on it, so 20 pink become 40 blue (or 80, with locus) and those would become 40 (or 80) brimstone horrors. Still a ton of models, especially as a tar pit, but not quite as bad as 160 bases (320 wounds).

    • Reecius
      Reecius November 26, 2016 7:43 am
      #

      Good point, I put 80-160 because I was thinking you could potentially join the Herald to them with the Loci but it only works on Pinks.

  12. Dunmer November 26, 2016 6:20 am
    #

    At 1500 points I am going to run a list with Magnus, fateqeaver and a renegade shooty knight and then if horrors play like this fill out my points for them for objective secured warp charge spam.

    Sweet mother of Jesus it will be a cheesy list and all I have to do is let my horrors die for the greater good.

    As a side note, instant death would be a moderate way to ignore splitting I feel. Fluff and play wise

    • abusepuppy November 26, 2016 7:59 am
      #

      Magnus 650
      2×10 Tzaangors 140
      Fateweaver 300
      10 Pink Horrors 90
      Gattling Knight 435(?)

      That’s 1615 right there. Sorry to crush your dreams.

      • beau November 27, 2016 10:13 am
        #

        just drop the pink unit for 1 brimstone horror unit (30 pts?) and use a regular gat/sword knight.

  13. BoomWolf November 26, 2016 7:28 am
    #

    I am only baffled by one thing-why ever buy flamers and/or the soulreaper cannons?
    Sure, they look awesome-but you got AP3 coming from every single gun already. you really don’t need any more of it.

    I mean, flamers are not even an upgrade much. you can’t overwatch (SnP), and you are not fast enough to get into people’s faces. the bolters will probably work out better in most cases.
    And the soulreaper-looks like a beast, but WHY would you need it? just buying another rubric would usually pan out better.

    The horrors, I think you got them wrong.
    First, you only get 1 base of brimes per blue, not 2. (a base is “two brimes”, but you get one base)
    Second, what are the odds they are part of the same unit? because if they are-sweeping them down is easy. If not-they run the risk of being the ultimate killpoint trap.

    • Reecius
      Reecius November 26, 2016 7:52 am
      #

      I understood the rule but you are right, I did in fact write it incorrectly, thanks for pointing that out.

    • abusepuppy November 26, 2016 8:01 am
      #

      There is the relic that lets you overwatch, which would make the Flamers pretty decent, and the Terminators can also make use of them to that effect. Flamers aren’t a bad weapon to have in general, although 7pts is a bit on the high side for them.

      If they are part of the same unit that spawned them, it fixes almost all of the issues with things- first, if you kill the whole unit they won’t appear. Second, they’re not generating more warp charge/free powers. Third, you’re not increasing your unit count when the enemy shoots at you.

      Here’s to hoping that is the case.

      • Gunssk November 30, 2016 7:29 pm
        #

        Blue horrors and brimstone horrors do not generate warpstone charges, they are not psychers/brotherhood etc.
        If you start with 20 pink horrors, the will generate 40 blue horrors, and then finally 40 2 wound brimstone horrors.

        • Reecius
          Reecius December 1, 2016 9:12 am
          #

          They are Psykers.

  14. cj November 26, 2016 8:06 am
    #

    Do we know what the restrictions are on the “make infantry jump infantry” thing?

    That could be fun. Especially if it works on battle brothers.

    I;m thinking… Mutilators (Heresy)
    MoT, free VoTLW, with an exalted sorceror for blessings (and fearless) . Should be a 3++? and jump.. not bad

    • Reecius
      Reecius November 27, 2016 1:04 am
      #

      IIRC it says “friendly”unit. Will double check tomorrow, but I think it can be used on any BB unit.

      • Reecius
        Reecius November 27, 2016 1:43 pm
        #

        Confirmed: it is any friendly infantry unit.

  15. Chaos Reigns November 26, 2016 9:48 pm
    #

    Man, I feel GW is still the same to Chaos; Daemons get ramped up to 21 and CSM get a participation trophy. I think this release could have been really great for Rubric Marines if a few things didn’t happen. First and foremost, the SNP ruling in the FAQ for transports. Second, soul reaper not taken in 5 man. And third, the flamer.

    Min squads of 5, riding in rhinos w/ havoc launcher would be just over 200 points. While this is expensive, it would be the greatest use of a rhino as a mobile firing platform chaos could have dreamed. Move 6″, better psychic shooting, then an AP3 auto cannon+bolter out the hatch and a havoc is moderate firepower to pepper from your advancing troops before they actually disembark for full auto. However now with how SNP works, even after you disembark from a transport that has moved the cannon cant fire, ultimately making tsons eternally walking. This could have made the squad viable in some way, but at 10 man needed, and on foot always, no way.

    The biggest kick in the nuts is the flamer. While it’s pretty sweet I guess at AP4, I don’t see why it’s even more expensive than a normal flamer for CSM since you trade an AP3 bolter for it and can’t overwatch. Ultimately, in the face of Sisters of Silence getting 2point flamers and free AP2 CCWs, this seems pretty typical lol.

    • abusepuppy November 26, 2016 11:10 pm
      #

      >even after you disembark from a transport that has moved the cannon cant fire

      I’m not sure what you’re talking about here. If the Rhino moves over 6″, then yeah you’re making snap shots, but as long as it doesn’t go faster than that you’re able to shoot to full effect, unless there’s something I totally missed in the new FAQ.

      • Chaos Reigns November 26, 2016 11:16 pm
        #

        I’m specifically referring to the soul reaper cannon and how SNP reads with moving in transports. TSons can walk 6″ shoot cannon but cannot move in rhino 6″, disembark, and shoot cannon.

        • JustinS November 27, 2016 12:38 am
          #

          I was wondering if you could tell me where you found that rule. When I checked the rulebook, there was nothing under the SNP rule or vehicle disembarkation section where it mentions that. In fact, my understanding of the rules is that if the rhino moves 6″ and then the SNP disembarks, they would still be able to shoot their weapons at full BS.

          • Chaos Reigns November 27, 2016 8:48 am
            #

            Page 5 of the new FAQ
            Q: For the purposes of Heavy, Ordnance, and Salvo weapons,
            does the Slow and Purposeful special rule allow units embarked
            on a Transport to fire as if they remained Stationary if the
            vehicle moves at Cruising Speed but not Flat Out?
            A: No. Units embarked on a Transport that moved at
            Combat Speed count as having moved that turn, units
            embarked on a Transport that moved at Cruising Speed
            can only fire Snap Shots that turn, and if a vehicle moves
            Flat Out its passengers cannot fire at all that turn.

          • abusepuppy November 27, 2016 12:19 pm
            #

            That is cruising speed (i.e. more than 6″ in a turn.) Units embarked on a vehicle that moves at cruising speed can only fire snap shots- even if they count as remaining stationary, in the same way that a unit which is Pinned can only fire snap shots, even if it remains stationary.

            So long as you move at combat speed (6″) or less, the ruling has no effect on the passengers.

        • Blight November 27, 2016 2:35 am
          #

          100% if you move the rhino 6 then disembark 6 the 1k sons can still fire at full BS. If you don’t disembark and move over 6 then you have to snap shoot. Reason is because it says that if the transport moves over 6 then the passengers have to snap shoot which bypasses SnP.

          • Chaos Reigns November 27, 2016 8:51 am
            #

            If you move the rhino 6 then disembark 6, everything but the Soulreaper cannon fires at full BS*. That’s the kicker; SNP isn’t even a buff really anymore now that they do have a heavy weapon.

          • Chaos Reigns November 27, 2016 9:00 am
            #

            EDIT: I may have misread; how is that first line interpreted? It says they are being counted as moved. Will SNP still work Combat Speed? It seems it may.

      • Chaos Reigns November 27, 2016 9:51 am
        #

        I was incorrect. Mislead by how the question was phrased/answered. So axe the SNP bit, SRC in only 10 man is the big issue then. Hopefully they’ll FAQ it like they did with blast masters.

        • highwind November 28, 2016 12:00 pm
          #

          Still dont think it would be a very competitive because it is just too pricy…
          TWO Grav Cannon equipped Tactical Squads in the typical White Scars Gladius ist the same points.
          With scout from Khan they are unlike to move much but even if, 2 Grav Cannons still dish out more damage on most Targets.

  16. W November 26, 2016 11:51 pm
    #

    Does the jump artifact now mean that I can have my Renegade Zombies jumping 12″? If so, that has some potential for a really annoying unit. Or Mutant Rabble for more dice to put out some damage.

    • Reecius
      Reecius November 27, 2016 1:02 am
      #

      I don’t have the book in front of me right now, but IRRC it says “friendly” unit which would mean yes, zombies could get the benefit. It is crazy powerful.

      • Blight November 27, 2016 7:16 pm
        #

        Forget zombies use it on a great unclean one. Removes his largest weakness.

        • Reecius
          Reecius November 27, 2016 8:44 pm
          #

          Lol, nice one! Although, I don’t think it works on him, it specifies Infantry, he is an MC.

          • beau November 27, 2016 11:26 pm
            #

            How about a full blob of tzeentch possessed then? Make sure to buff them so they get their 3++ with reroll 1’s.

          • abusepuppy November 28, 2016 5:26 am
            #

            For the low, low price of 700pts (plus all of the other units in the maxed-out formation, of course), how could you resist? I mean, after all, it’s almost capable of hurting an Ironclad Dreadnought!

  17. Daniil Osudin November 27, 2016 2:46 am
    #

    So basically the best way to deal with horrors is to kill a couple and then force them to take daemonic instability, as then they don’t split.

    I actually would prefer them making horrors non psykers and giving them back the shooting attack, then the splitting wouldn’t be as powerful. Or having them join any squad of horrors within 6″, so basically only spawn a new squad if a horrors unit was fully killed. Oh and increase their points slightly..

    However, i don’t think that banning split rule is a solution, as then why not ban a lot of other broken rules from other armies too..

    • Reecius
      Reecius November 27, 2016 1:18 pm
      #

      Daemonic Instability only seems to stop them from spitting if you remove the entire unit at once.

  18. Horton November 27, 2016 4:01 am
    #

    I cannot wait for his release! I think this detachment can work. There are new buffs to 1k sons, and while expensive, I think there is an overall powerful list in there. The terminators are a great example: they have a level 2 sorc as their leader. Could they really be any chealer???? Also, Magnus sounds like a Super Boss and I plan to always use him! I will have a better idea once I read the book, but I like what I am seeing so far!

    • Reecius
      Reecius November 27, 2016 1:19 pm
      #

      Glad you’re stoked, buddy!

  19. Rob November 27, 2016 4:03 am
    #

    I haven’t the rules myself, but would the helfrost rule negate the pink horror rule with splitting? Because they wouldn’t be removed as casualties they couldn’t split into blue horrors. Cause I know that rule breaks necrons reanimation and eternal warrior.

  20. Crusade November 27, 2016 5:27 am
    #

    It seems obvious but just wanting to check, can Magnus be added to a demon CAD?

    • Reecius
      Reecius November 27, 2016 1:19 pm
      #

      Don’t think so, he has the CSM faction.

      • Dakkath November 28, 2016 9:29 am
        #

        Well we already see plenty of daemon lists that bring Bel’akor in an allied detachment with 10 cultists, now it might just switch to a CAD of Bel’akor, 2×10 cultists, and Magnus.

        • Reecius
          Reecius November 28, 2016 10:50 am
          #

          Yeah, or Tzaangors who are actually pretty decent.

        • abusepuppy November 28, 2016 12:49 pm
          #

          That gives you an “allied” detachment that is like 1100 points on its own. >.>

  21. Ytook November 27, 2016 6:39 am
    #

    Correct me if I’m wrong but don’t the FAQs (or draft for daemons one maybe?) state that summoned models are not part of any detachment, so wouldn’t blue/brimstone horrors that split also follow this and not gain obsec and the like? Would still probably be a bit too good for comp play but it’s something.

    • faceless November 27, 2016 7:58 am
      #

      The thing is, that if you play game of kill points. The split rulle secures enemy victory really fast. New units are free kill points.

      • Reecius
        Reecius November 27, 2016 1:20 pm
        #

        Not free, you still have to kill the unit which can be quite tough. Anyone who has tried to kill Pink Horrors in cover can attest to that.

  22. Faceless November 27, 2016 7:47 am
    #

    To be honest the new horrors as insane brutal as they are, they are also almost auto loose in games with kill points. 1 unit of horrors will spawn free kill points that are only WC generator othervise.

    • Reecius
      Reecius November 27, 2016 1:20 pm
      #

      I don’t think they’re auto-lose at all in KP. You have to wait to another phase (usually another turn) to do anything to the new unit. It will be a lot tougher to handle than it may appear at first.

  23. The Mediocre Gamer
    mediocre gamer November 27, 2016 8:16 am
    #

    I think the panic over horrors is perhaps premature. I assume (don’t have the book) that they add to an existing unit if one is within a certain distance, maybe 6″? So you’re not going to be adding to the unit count if you kill the pink horror unit in a turn, through shooting and assault. All you’ll do is keep the unit count the same, as one blue horror unit will take its place.

    Are they powerful, definitely. They’ll take dedication across at least 3 rounds of the game to kill. If there are thoughts of altering their rules for tournament play, where I think that needs to happen is not allowing the split rule be present if they’re summoned by anything other than Tzeentch. Allow Tzeentch their toys, they’ll still need it. But for the love of god, no super friends imperial psychic deathstar, or Eldar, or an imperial battle company summoning splitting horrors.

    • Reecius
      Reecius November 27, 2016 1:21 pm
      #

      It’s worse than you think, buddy. If there is no unit within 6″, you make a new unit. So no, it doesn’t got at a 1:1 ratio (although that is the most likely result). 1 unit could spawn 2-3 units in a single turn if you position your models well.

  24. Faceless November 27, 2016 9:18 am
    #

    To be honest horrors are brutal in games that dont have kill points. In kill point games they can be auto win for enemy.

    • Reecius
      Reecius November 27, 2016 1:22 pm
      #

      I don’t think so. As stated above, you have to wait a phase or turn to try and scoop up those points which gives them time to fight back, hide, etc. It won’t be as easy as some think.

    • CJ November 27, 2016 2:13 pm
      #

      Surely splitting won’t be compulsory in any case?
      I mean I have plenty of pink horrors, but no brimstone ones. I can hardly be expected to deploy units I don’t have.

      • Reecius
        Reecius November 27, 2016 2:42 pm
        #

        It reads to me as being non-optional.

        • Ytook November 27, 2016 3:49 pm
          #

          I think it’s fair to say any ability like this is reliant on you having the models. You don’t have to have a spawn model for every CSM character to field them surely?

          The wording on the rule is exactly the same as the AoS horror splitting rules except referring to deamonic instability instead of battleshock. Hopefully 40K gets AoS style reserve points to limit crazy stuff like this in competitive play in 8th.

          • Reecius
            Reecius November 27, 2016 3:54 pm
            #

            Yeah, that’s the big difference: in AoS you pay for the extra models.

          • Ytook November 27, 2016 4:01 pm
            #

            Maybe this is designed more for 8th and 8th will be like a more complex AoS as rumours have said? But then I don’t see how they could do that without every unit getting updated like happened with AoS.

        • winterman November 29, 2016 10:56 am
          #

          Well based on the FAQ you just use the previous version of pink horrors that don’t have the split rule. Now blue horrors, that’s a different story

  25. beau November 27, 2016 9:49 am
    #

    each unit of blue horrors and brimstone horrors gives a warp charge.

    I hear this unit works with the Daemon incursion formation from first wulfen book. So does the loci that doubles splitting. I will be reviving my old list with some tweaks:

    Tzeentch core:
    9 units of 11 pink horrors
    herald of tzeentch with new loci that doubles splitting and grants it to all units within 12″
    fury auxilliary
    Belakor from command

    Unbeatable. I already converted over 100 brimstone horrors from boxes of nurglings and green stuff for silver tower campaign. Guess I’ll need to get more blue horrors aka paint pink horrors blue. My 99 pink horrors will become 792 brimstone horrors. That’s a lot of psychic dice to throw at my opponent.

  26. Reecius
    Reecius November 27, 2016 1:36 pm
    #

    Added the verbiage of Split for everyone to draw their own conclusions on it.

  27. Ytook November 27, 2016 2:16 pm
    #

    Looking forward to 8th more and more 😉

    Good thing the ITC vote’s coming up eh? 😛

  28. Adam November 27, 2016 3:14 pm
    #

    Any chance of details on the Tzeentch warpstorm table??

    • Reecius
      Reecius November 27, 2016 3:21 pm
      #

      What would you like to know?

      • Glocknall November 27, 2016 5:27 pm
        #

        How is it different from the normal CD one?

  29. GhostPoster November 27, 2016 6:57 pm
    #

    Mehreens have their free transports, let Tz have their free Horrors.

    When everyone is OP, NO ONE WILL BE!

    • Reecius
      Reecius November 27, 2016 8:43 pm
      #

      Haha, I understand the sentiment but not all free points are implemented equally. Besides, Tzeentch already summons profusely and are quite powerful. They aren’t really in need of a boost, bu YMMV.

    • abusepuppy November 28, 2016 5:30 am
      #

      A Battle Company gets ~350pts of free transports for taking 800+pts of mediocre units.

      Horrors give you ~150pts of free models (and 2+ extra warp charges) for each unit of the best troop in the codex that you take.

      So yeah, basically the exact same thing, right?

      • The Mediocre Gamer
        mediocre gamer November 28, 2016 7:59 am
        #

        I think you’re underselling battle company. It’s not just the free transports, it’s that their ObSec on top of being free. And those tax units are not that bad. Devastator grav spam is pretty effective. Oh yes, and those Devs and their transports are ObSec too.

        And at the end of the day, if people are running those horrors in one of these new formations, they can spawn them all day long and that 35pt (free) ObSec drop pod will still claim the objective.

        • abusepuppy November 28, 2016 8:09 am
          #

          Sure, the Battle Company has lots of other benefits to it. So do Pink Horrors taken in an Incursion or Combined Arms detachment. But we were specifically talking about the free points aspect of things, and in that respect I’m pretty sure the Horrors are significantly superior.

          (As for how good the Battle Company units are outside of the formation… well, how often do you see Devastators outside of their two specific formations? I sure don’t remember them showing up at all during 6E or even much during 5E.)

  30. Flyfishfreak November 27, 2016 7:15 pm
    #

    So as a Daemon player is this a good time to defend the split rule before the mob gets to angry? I Just read Walmart sold out of Pitch Forks and Kerosene!

    • Reecius
      Reecius November 27, 2016 8:44 pm
      #

      Feel free to present your argument for keeping Split as written. I am curious to hear from those who think it is positive for the meta.

      • beau November 27, 2016 11:30 pm
        #

        When I face pink horrors next I will make sure to ignore them and focus everything on fateey, magnus, or ahriman! Plenty of other things to do and they can only summon so much while i grab all the objectives… oh wait they can obsec or corrupt objectives too….NOOOOOOO

        • VonCrown November 28, 2016 8:57 am
          #

          Well, technically at least the units from split shouldn’t benefit from formation rules, so no obsec or daemonic corruption on split units. I think that makes them a lot more manageable, really.

          • abusepuppy November 28, 2016 12:51 pm
            #

            The Tervigon ruling- which may or may not stand once the final version of the FAQ is released- strongly implies that GW thinks that the spawned units will continue to benefit from any command abilities of the original detachment.

          • Reecius
            Reecius November 28, 2016 2:49 pm
            #

            Right, I couldn’t remember off of the top of my head but I thought that was the direction they were going with it.

      • Flyfishfreak November 29, 2016 12:05 am
        #

        Obviously you guys have your work cut out for you on trying to make the split rule mesh. It may be it can’t but I think the intended purpose of the new data slate was to retain the WC’s of the original unit and generate new ones to offset certain Imperial builds. So IMO any changes should still try to honor that fact.

        Here are a couple suggestions right off the top of my head….

        1. To eliminate the 6″ respawn and force the replaced models to auto join the original unit when applicable.
        2. If the original unit is in CC the models being replaced must join said combat at the conclusion of the fight sub-phase.

  31. Tzeentch Dude November 27, 2016 9:26 pm
    #

    Change your version of maelstrom or get rid of it. As it currently stands killing more than one unit is basically the same as killing one unit.

    Mmmm kill points is a great mission against freebie armies, summoning and freebie units.

    • Reecius
      Reecius November 28, 2016 10:51 am
      #

      I don’t understand what you are referring to? What missions? Ours? GW’s?

  32. Cj November 28, 2016 12:02 am
    #

    Wooah, someone on dakka is saying horrors no longer have access to daemonology, is this true?

    • Reecius
      Reecius November 28, 2016 10:52 am
      #

      True. They have the Change school.

  33. Astro_nomicon November 28, 2016 12:06 am
    #

    So as I understand it Magnus need only benefit from cursed Earth to get a 2++ rerollable. . .
    4++ base
    +1 invuln for any blessing
    +1 invuln for cursed earth

    ..pretty sweet.

    • abusepuppy November 28, 2016 5:33 am
      #

      Unless they missed listing it, Magnus does not have the Blessing rule. In fact, I think Possessed, Mutilators, and Obliterators are the only ones who do. Maybe Daemon Princes?

      • Astro_nomicon November 28, 2016 9:49 am
        #

        Ah buggers. I thought Blessing of Tzeentch was a faction wide type of deal.

      • Reecius
        Reecius November 28, 2016 10:53 am
        #

        He does have VotLW.

        • abusepuppy November 28, 2016 12:54 pm
          #

          Ah, right, since it triggers of VotLW.

          Although, looking at it, Blessing wouldn’t even trigger since Cursed Earth targets the caster and Magnus doesn’t have access to Daemonology. So his options for activating it are actually fairly limited- Siphon Magic and… is that it? Spells other people cast on him, I suppose.

          • Reecius
            Reecius November 28, 2016 2:49 pm
            #

            Force.

  34. Austin Bemister November 28, 2016 12:48 am
    #

    Why is it so hard for GW to understand that CSM are mostly overpriced and they can’t just keep things at the same points costs, Thousand Sons especially? They made SM stuff cheaper at the drop of a hat, why do they refuse to do the same for CSM?

    I don’t even play CSM, it’s just really frustrating to see and I feel sorry for those who do.

    • Reecius
      Reecius November 28, 2016 10:55 am
      #

      The formations make them good, but on their own they are way too expensive.

  35. CJ November 28, 2016 1:46 am
    #

    Do horrors really lose access to daemonology?

    • Reecius
      Reecius November 28, 2016 10:54 am
      #

      They are listed as having the Change discipline.

      • Luke November 28, 2016 1:55 pm
        #

        But doesn’t EVERY psyker have access to malefic daemonology in 7th unless it’s specifically forbidden?

        • Reecius
          Reecius November 28, 2016 2:47 pm
          #

          Ah, yeah, I think you may be right, there, but will check.

          • Sean November 28, 2016 3:20 pm
            #

            I think anything published in 7th doesn’t have instant access to all demonology. I mean farseers lost access to summoning with their 7th edition eldar codex.

          • abusepuppy November 28, 2016 6:50 pm
            #

            Exactly so. If you’re a 7E book, you don’t automatically have Daemonology.

        • Venkarel November 28, 2016 5:40 pm
          #

          I think you are correct, all psykers get daemonology, both sanctic and malefic. As for the space elves, they are as you meantioned, specifically forbidden to have malefic but can get sanctic.

          • Sean November 28, 2016 6:30 pm
            #

            They aren’t forbidden anything. They just don’t have malefic listed but do have sanctic. So since the new horrors don’t have any demonology listed they don’t get it. Otherwise I’ll just add powers to farseers too.

          • Ytook November 29, 2016 4:33 am
            #

            Daemonology isn’t auto given to anyone in 7th ed, it has to be listed on the unit entry

          • Venkarel November 29, 2016 9:04 am
            #

            Pg 28 BRB right hand column at the top in bold, “Unless otherwise stated, all Psykers, other than those belonging to the Tyranids faction (pg 118) can generate powers from the Daemonology discipline (pg 194). The Daemonology discipline has not one, but two different powers….” For example, we know space marines can summon demons and use Sanctic powers but Daemonology is not listed on their datasheets.

            Craftworld Eldar specifically limits all the Psykers (Eldrad, Farseer, Warlock, Spirtseer) to Daemonology (Sanctic) so they are prohibited from casting Malefic.

          • Sean November 29, 2016 5:08 pm
            #

            Actually marine codex lists demonology in their power choices

  36. Rasmus Olesen November 28, 2016 3:58 am
    #

    Horrors are deamon of tzeentch and level 1 psyker so it has to and Always did have to Roll at least 1 of its 1 powers on change powers

    • abusepuppy November 28, 2016 5:34 am
      #

      No, they automatically have the Primaris power of Change via the Chaos Psychic Focus rule, but Daemons (unlike CSM) have never been required to generate any other powers from their patron’s discipline.

  37. MagicJuggler November 28, 2016 7:12 am
    #

    From what it looks like, most the stuff looks overcosted, and Tzanngors are Ork Boyz by another name.

    The Artifact that lets a nearby Infantry unit move like Jump Infantry looks like a must-have though, and the ability to make *any* CSM Detachment a Tzeentch Detachment could be potentially hilarious. Worst comes to worst, you could pop that artifact on a Warpsmith from a Warpack, and plug that into a R&H Purge list for Jump Zombies.

    One question I have is whether Scarab Terminators are similar to Cataphractii w.r.t. being able to be used as Terminators for any formation that requires them. If yes, a unit of Scarabs would be hilarious (if usually impractical) in a Terminator Annihilation Force, especially if you also got access to Gate of Infinity or Hammerhand.

    I imagine that although RAW-wise, nothing stops a Black Legion formation from being a Thousand Sons formation too, it will be FAQd to be “no”, but if yes, it would have the amusing side-effect of making VoTLW free and replacing it with a MoT tax instead. Which, again, could be hilarious on certain combos. Sadly, you wouldn’t be able to do the same with Crimson Slaughter due to them not being able to take VoTLW.

    On another note, a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch that cast Cursed Earth on itself would have a 3++ and reroll 1s…

    • Reecius
      Reecius November 28, 2016 10:56 am
      #

      VotLW is already free for Thousand Sons.

      • MagicJuggler November 28, 2016 12:43 pm
        #

        Not the exact point.

        Say I wanted to use, the Chosen of Abaddon formation from Black Legion, so I could take a Sorcerer and unit of Terminators. Since its from Black Legion, they *must* take VoTLW.

        The question (to which I assume the answer is no) is can this also be a 1k Sons formation if I give them Mark of Tzeentch, and thus get VOTLW for free, and the Terminators get a 3++ whenever they’re hit with a Blessing. Or whether it would be legal to use 1k Sons for an even better Cabalstar…

  38. Joe November 28, 2016 8:36 am
    #

    So, the real question is, can we pre-preorder the new Horror box to get ahead of the six month limited availability these buggers are going to have? Jesus. That splitting rule is friggen printing money for GW.

  39. highwind November 28, 2016 11:12 am
    #

    So, Exalted Sorcerer can take Biomancy?
    Do they still have to take atleast some spells from Tzeentch Discipline?
    Can they be chosen in a Cyclopia Cabal?

  40. Nurglitch November 28, 2016 12:20 pm
    #

    I’m looking forward to seeing the Blue and Brimstone Horror boxes.

  41. SonsofVulkan November 28, 2016 2:54 pm
    #

    I feel that TS Sorcerers and Exalted ones aren’t really that good/efficient compared to Black Legion cyclopia cabal ones.

    1. You are forced to roll on the Tz discipline one time which limits your chance on getting other most desired powers.
    2. Exalted sorcerers can only take a disk?? Thats a lot compared to a bike or jump pack!

  42. Interrogator-Chaplain November 28, 2016 3:52 pm
    #

    Huh, well, the next ITC rules workshop regarding the Horrors should be a fun one. One or two bottles of rum?

  43. Tristan November 28, 2016 4:07 pm
    #

    Warpflamers have the warpflame special rule, not soulblaze

    • Reecius
      Reecius November 28, 2016 4:10 pm
      #

      That they do.

  44. FearTheForage November 28, 2016 4:56 pm
    #

    May be a bit specific, but maybe a Nurgle DP with plague flail and grotti should make short work of blue and brimstone horrors (even better with enfeeble from biomancy)

    • Vercingatorix November 29, 2016 12:00 pm
      #

      Actually, I think Grotti would be extremely effective as he would reduce all brimstone horrors to toughness 0, effectively killing them. If you charge the little guys with a plague formation from curse of the wulfen you could possibly do the same thing to blue horrors. Which would be hilarious as you would automatically murder the whole unit of blue horrors if they fail their leadership AND then you would automatically murder all the brimstone horrors as soon as they spawned.

  45. Flyfishfreak November 29, 2016 12:20 am
    #

    Obviously you guys have a lot to think about when it comes to this new rule and force multiplication. IMO the new data slates are meant to preserve and help generate WC’s due to the new Imperial unit options. As such I would hope any change would Attempt to preserve the actual intention and not just blanket eliminate the rule all together.

    • Reecius
      Reecius November 29, 2016 11:42 am
      #

      Thanks for sharing your opinions, but I HIGHLY doubt the intent here is that sophisticated. You have to remember that GW does not play the game the way we do. Your mind it going to a high level meta issue that pertains only to top competitive play. GW wrote that rule (I will bet money on this) because it describes how the models behave in the fluff, not for any competitive play reason.

      • Flyfishfreak November 29, 2016 4:21 pm
        #

        I don’t disagree about the fluff but is it to far fetched to think GW actually did something for purposes of general gameplay? Tournament play or not I just don’t think GW forgot that the freshly created unit from the split rule generates a WC or even two because things like psychic hood, the Callexus, more recently the Sisters of Silence, etc. exist.
        My concern over the ITC community not making the proper amendment/fix of the split rule is failing to preserve or properly amend that element. It may not be salvageable but I would hate to see more “anti” psyker units/gear make their way on the board with the split rule thrown in the trash in its entirety. But thus is the ebb and flow…

  46. sterling arnet November 29, 2016 2:28 am
    #

    Hey Reecius,

    just looking at the formations and core choices
    i wanted to just run the Tzangor Warherd and magnus
    and use fate weaver

    how would i go about doing all of this for a 1500 point list
    just trying to plan my purchases

    would i have to just ally him in to a daemon list?
    and can magnus rerol saves of 1 being Tzeentch? like does this just come stock or is it from a formation.

  47. Tristan November 29, 2016 10:08 am
    #

    Warpflamers have the warpflame rule, not soulblaze.

    • Tristan November 29, 2016 10:09 am
      #

      sorry, posted twice 🙁

  48. Joel November 30, 2016 5:44 am
    #

    Hey, a few people have asked this but I haven’t seen it answered…

    Do the Sorcerers, Scarab Occult Terminator Sorcerers and Exalted Sorcerers still have to select one of their powers from Tzeentch or are they free to select all their powers from wherever they like?

    Can Exalted Sorcerers take Terminator armour at all? What about items from the Chaos Rewards and Special Issue Wargear lists? (I read somewhere they couldn’t)

    What is the range of the Astral Grimoire? Can you also please confirm if it is the bearer AND/OR a unit within X”?

  49. C.J. Young December 5, 2016 11:49 am
    #

    Has anyone seen the Wrath of Magnus FAQ that was released on the Warhammer Community Website. Pink Horrors don’t get malific demonology? So that does stop some of the summoning craziness. It also offers some answers on how splitting work for horrors.