Army Review: Codex Grav


Since its release in 6th edition, Codex: Grav has become a powerful force in the 40k universe. This review will look at the history of this noble race and its impact upon the game. For more reviews, analyses and battle reports, check out the Tactics Corner.

When I reviewed the Devastator Squad recently, Grav Cannons were obviously a big part of the review. It was suggested in the comments that Codex: Grav Cannons receive their own review. With that in mind, I put together a tongue in cheek review of the newest 40k race- The Gravitons. This is obviously intended as a bit of fun, no digs at any players or play styles are intended, I even run a grav-heavy White Scars army myself.


In homage to Codex: Grav, I intend to spam this image throughout the article.


The origins of the Grav race were first hinted at in the 2nd edition of 40k. The Wargear book list the Graviton Gun, where it automatically immobilised any target that was hit (preventing them from moving and shooting) and did greater damage to vehicles and building.


The power of the Graviton gun was readily apparent against infantry targets. The rules state that the weapon works on vehicles, but this effect was never once observed during a game. Owing to the vehicle rules for 2nd edition 40k, an advanced degree in mathematics and reams of paper were required for note keeping and assessment of vehicle damage. In 1994, the British Government passed the “Priestley Act”, banning the use of vehicles in 2nd edition 40k in an effort to halt the rampart deforestation occurring in England thanks to many players’ attempts to take tanks.


After second edition, the Grav gun was lost from the 40k universe for a while as the Graviton race went into hibernation (they had purchased a time share in partnership with the Necrons). With the release of 6th edition 40k, the Graviton race came back with a strong resurgence. The rise of Tau battlesuits, Eldar Wraithkights, Tyranid Monstrous Creatures and vehicles that were able to move brought many Space Marine players to the brink of tears. Their cries of despair at the overpowered nonsense of the Xenos races summoned forth the Graviton race to provide the Adeptus Astartes with their own brand of overpowered nonsense. Codex: Grav was born and the history and motives of this enigmatic race has been greatly expanded ever since.

The Graviton race are no mere weapons for the employ of the Imperium. They are in fact a powerful symbiotic race who bond with other armies to fully unleash their powers. In the short time that they have emerged, they have become seamlessly intertwined with the Space Marine army, so much so in fact that it is rare to see such an army without a contingent of the Graviton race.

Only the mighty Space Wolves have eschewed the offerings of the Grav race. Papa Logan’s magnificent sled was deemed so precious and powerful that the Space Wolves did not wish to risk its permanent damage from a stray grav shot that they decided not to take any.


The Eldar have long since been thought of as the most powerful psychic race in the universe, but this title is actually held by the Graviton race. After the destruction of Horus and banishment of the Traitor Legions, the Graviton race enacted their most powerful enchantment yet. They wiped all knowledge of the manufacture and use of Grav weaponry from the mind of every Traitor Space Marine, even though they had been using one, like literally five minutes ago. This powerful enchantment has lasted the 10 long millennia that Chaos has been at war with the Imperium. The greatest threat that the Imperium has ever know could not be allowed to have access to amazing weapons (or a competitive codex).

The secret reason for this is that the Graviton race is powered by the tears of Chaos Space Marine players, the same as Games Workshop HQ in Nottingham.


The Graviton race is notoriously shallow. They only hang around with the “cool kids” in the Space Marine army. This is why you see increased numbers of grav weapons in units such as Command Squads, Devastators and Centurions. Poor Scout Squads are denied access to grav weapons. Even though they are back at WS and BS 4, the grav race remembers when they were BS 3 and will not sully themselves with filthy Scout hands.

As powerful as the Graviton race has become, there is one foe that the fear above all others; the dreaded Orks! The greenskins are the scourge of the grav race. Their ridiculous armour saves make a mockery of the power of the Grav race and are the perfect counter to the Codex. Poor Codex: Grav players are forced to rely on their Space Marine Battle Brothers, as the Adeptus Astartes are forced to try and find any sort of counter to Orks in their threadbare codex. So effective was the Ork counter to grav, most Ork players decided to stop bringing their armies to tournaments. Sick of the top tables at most events being taken up by a sea of green, the Ork players decided to retire their top tier codex and allow the Eldar, Tau and Space Marines their moment to shine for once. That is why you so rarely see Orks at tournaments these days.



Codex: Grav is one of the more unusual ones in that it does not adhere to the force organisation chart and only contains two unit choices (the Grav gun and Grav Cannon). Technically, the Grav pistol also exists, but it has never been observed in the wild. The Heavy Grav Cannon is also a thing, but I don’t have that codex, so it doesn’t exist to me.

Special Rules:

  • Graviton- When firing at a target, the to wound roll required is the target’s armour save, to a minimum of 6. Against vehicles, on a roll of a 6, the vehicle is Immobilised and loses a Hull Point.



  • Each Grav Gun must be upgraded to include either a Space Marine Tactical Squad, Command Squad, Sternguard Veteran Squad or Bike Squad.
  • Each Grav Cannon must be upgraded to include either a Space Marine Tactical Squad, Sternguard Veteran Squad, Centurion Devastator Squad or Devastator Squad.


Purchase Grav weaponry, shoot the enemy, win the game.


Advanced Tactics:

Grav weaponry is quite cheap in terms of the overall army. Only the compulsory Space Marine unit cost stopped them from being spammed in much higher numbers than they are currently observed. They have quickly replaced the Plasma gun in the Space Marine arsenal. For some reason, a weapon that has a good chance of killing the wielder is not as popular as the Grav gun in the current meta.

The Grav gun prefers to be joined to units of Space Marine Bikes. As they are slightly cooler than Tactical Marines, Bike Squads are allowed the honour of accompanying two grav guns into battle, thanks to their rad motorcycles. This gives the grav guns some very good mobility on the battlefield and allows them to fire at full effect.

Grav guns also like to be in the company of Command Squads, but only if they promise to go in Drop Pods to get them closer to the enemy quicker. Grav guns will occasionally slum it with Tactical Marines, but only if no other option presents itself.

The Grav Cannon is a more powerful version of the Grav gun. It comes with a Grav Amp, giving it re-rolls to wound and against vehicles, making it even more ridiculously powerful. It is a compulsory upgrade for Devastators and Centurion Devastators, but for some reason is listed as an option in their respective codex entries. Centurions were the first unit allowed to accompany the Grav Cannon into battle and have been frequently observed on the battlefield.

What are those things the Centurions are carrying?!?

What are those things the Centurions are carrying?!?

Devastator Squads were only allowed the privilege of accompanying the Grav Cannon after they received an updated kit in 7th edition (the last one was so 2002!). For some reason, the kit only comes with two of the four compulsory Grav Cannons, but additional Grav Cannons can easily be purchased on the second hand market for a very reasonable $30 per cannon. The Devastator kit also comes with a number of other Heavy Weapons, but no-one has been able to recognise what they are for two editions now. The additional parts can still find use as battlefield debris or as a charitable donation to Astra Militarum regiments.


There is very little that Graviton Weapons will not harm. Void Shield Generators were a useful defence against the Graviton race, but this was fixed once the error was realised. Only cover saves and Invulnerable saves can protect against the Graviton race, but steps are being taken to ensure that this is corrected.

The Hunter’s Eye is an essential upgrade for the Grav army, granting Ignores Cover to one unit of grav weapons. This extremely rare and precious Relic is only observed in every single White Scars army.

The new Space Marine psychic power Null Zone has been created to lessen the effect of Invulnerable saves on Codex: Grav. However, the power is only -2 to invulnerable saves and does not ignore them, though this should be corrected in the 8th edition.



Codex: Grav can be added to almost all the formations in Codex: Space Marines and greatly benefit from their rules. The only ones it cannot be added to are the crappy ones made up of Terminators or vehicles, the ones that no-one takes anyway.

The Future of Grav

Just a note before I start, these rumours are obtained directly from the respective manufacturers and are 5000% accurate.

  • 8th Edition- Grav weapons now ignore Cover and Invulnerable saves. Marine players rejoice that this egregious oversight is finally corrected.
  • 9th Edition- Grav weapons are made a compulsory choice for all Space Marine units.
  • 10th Edition- Chaos Space Marines get access to grav weapons. Their grav weapons are 6″ range, with one shot and Gets Hot!
  • 11th Edition- every army in the game gets access to Grav weapons in order to balance the game. Games are much quicker now that the roll for first turn decides the winner (much like the current edition). Players now compete to see who can set up the most aesthetically pleasing army deployment during the deployment phase.



The Graviton race has experienced a remarkable rise to power in the short time since its release. Their rules and units are best used in synergy with other armies such as the Space Marines.

Look out for future articles in the army review series, including Codex: Scatterbike, Codex: Riptide Wing, Codex: Deathstar and Codex: Flyrants.

And as always, Frontline Gaming sells Games Workshop product at up to 25% off of retail, every day!

You can also pick up some cheap models in our Second Hand Shop. Some of these gems are quite rare, sometimes they’re fully painted!



About Michael Corr

An avid 40k player and blogger from Scotland. I started in 3rd edition and have been playing ever since. I detail my adventures in my own blog "St Andrews Wargaming", highlighting my mediocre painting skills, regular battle reports and my occasional random ramblings.

65 Responses to “Army Review: Codex Grav”

  1. Avatar
    GeekmasterK August 26, 2016 12:14 pm #

    Emperor’s blessing be upon this article! Daily humor quota: satisfied!

  2. Avatar
    GeekmasterK August 26, 2016 12:20 pm #

    Also, if Codex: Deathstar was a thing that came into existence, I think Reece would reach his breaking point. I don’t even want to think about what kind of madness that would unleash! XD

    • Michael Corr
      Michael Corr August 26, 2016 3:18 pm #

      I’ll need to start writing it, see if I can bring him to the brink!

  3. Avatar
    Vercingatorix August 26, 2016 1:24 pm #

    I got a good laugh out of that. Thanks. Especially the part of the gravs compulsory wargear was marines.

    Also the ork bit. I know that’s why I retired my orks and started playing daemons. I was just TOO good as an ork player.

    • Michael Corr
      Michael Corr August 26, 2016 3:20 pm #

      The compulsory grav part is almost not even a joke, guess that’s what makes it funny.

      I was almost crying when I wrote the Ork bit. I miss my 5th edition Orks and their great codex.

  4. Avatar
    Njjesters4 August 26, 2016 1:31 pm #

    Hilarious. Thanks for the laughs

  5. Avatar
    ArchonKalafex August 26, 2016 1:33 pm #

    I want more of these! Great bit of humor here.

    • Michael Corr
      Michael Corr August 26, 2016 3:20 pm #

      Cheers, will try and think of some more to work on.

      • Avatar
        jamie August 28, 2016 1:01 am #

        very funny! reminds me of the if unit entries were honest! keep it up cant wait for the next ones!

  6. Avatar
    Marandamir August 26, 2016 1:55 pm #

    What is bad is this is obviously depicting the broken nature that is grav weapons and how pervasive the imbalanced weapons are in the meta, yet people have no problem fielding them along with their accompanied marine tax. I wonder if it has something to do with the 500 points they get worth of free vehicles from battle company?

    • Avatar
      ryan August 26, 2016 4:33 pm #

      well said. The weapon is so good, why even field plasma or meltaguns in regular squads, much less any of the other marine heavy weapons that never see the field. Kills elites, hordes, vehicles, MC’s, with doctrines re-roll to hit and wound with amps, just ridiculous.

      • Avatar
        AngryPanda August 27, 2016 2:13 am #

        Broken Codices are one thing but Grav seems to screw up the game simply by its mechanics. Vehicles, Heavy Armor troops, monstrous creatures? All more or less gone simply because those things exist.

        • Avatar
          AbusePuppy August 27, 2016 4:05 pm #

          Breaking the normal rules of wounding isn’t problematic in and of itself- lots of other effects (Poison, Fleshbane, Sniper, Rending, etc) do it as well and don’t break the game. The issue with Grav is that it both ignores almost all types of normal defenses a model might posses- i.e. armor save and toughness- while simultaneously ALSO getting large volume of fire, rerolls against all targets, and a high effectiveness against vehicles of all sorts.

          Grav is, in short, simply too flexible. If a Grav Cannon were Salvo 2/3 or 2/4 and didn’t come with a free Grav Amp, they would still be good enough to see play (since they kill Wraithknights, Riptides, etc, quite well) but wouldn’t be the only weapon worth taking.

          • Avatar
            AngryPanda August 28, 2016 4:45 am

            Agreed Puppy. Thing is that things like say poison especialy usualy do not come with high AP. And defiantly no way to kill vehicles.
            They could ahve said they add it to the holy trinity of flamer/melta and plasma by making it the anti monstrous creature gun and just be good at that or something.
            And maybe fix plasma just a bit to fulfill its role as the anti armor gun.

          • Avatar
            AbusePuppy August 28, 2016 10:42 pm

            Plasma and Grav, from a design standpoint, do the same thing- Grav just does a better job of it. And thematically they are both “the lost high technology that isn’t fully understood” weapons, so really the overlap between the two is pretty complete at this point.

        • Avatar
          jamie August 28, 2016 1:04 am #

          the game was and is mainly all ways screwed up by GW they are money grabbing morons!

  7. Avatar
    MidnightSun August 26, 2016 5:12 pm #

    Honestly, if your were a Chaos Space Marine, would you rather take your Strength-test-or-take-an-armor-save over your regular Bolter? By which I mean if you were a traitor Iron Hand, as they’re the only Legion that can field any real number of Graviton Guns.

    • Avatar
      Blight1 August 26, 2016 8:17 pm #

      Do you mean iron warrior?
      Why would you think they were the only group to have any?
      Beyond the traitor legions all having access to grav as much as plasma or melta, traitor mechanicus had developed the 40k version of grav during the heresy. Heck beyond just making grav guns for the traitors they should be creating all new horror weapons given that they are fine with innovation. Fine if I don’t get grav if you give me something like a warp rift gun.

      • Avatar
        MidnightSun August 27, 2016 8:36 am #

        No, I mean Iron Hands, because other than an Iron Hands army running Head of the Gorgon, Graviton is restricted to the Rapier Laser Destroyer upgrade. It’s not even close to being as common as Flamer/Plasma/Melta/Volkite. I’m not going to look through my entire Legion book, but I’m pretty sure that the handheld version of the Graviton Gun is *only* available for Iron Hands.

        I’m all for Chaos getting boosted, but it really fucks me off when Chaos players bitch about Drop Pods, Grav weapons and Storm Shields (especially people who buy into the ‘did they just leave their storm shields at the siege of Terra’ meme, because the traitor legions literally didn’t have any access to storm shields at all) and that CSM need ‘Legion Tactics’ where you get an army wide buff based on what Legion you’re from, because at that point, why not just play Marines? I get that Chaos need to get a buff, but giving them Grav Guns and Drop Pods and Chapter Tactics and free transports from bringing two Legionary Warbands *is not good for the game*.

        There’s a really awesome and far better balanced expansion with 18 Marines-but-differenter factions if you want to play a game of ‘everyone has the same pool of units and rules’. I don’t want 40k to be badly balanced 30k plus xenos.

        Giving Chaos something like the Kai Guns or whatever is kind of okay, and why I lament the Forgefiend and the Defiler – those, to me, are the way Chaos should be going, with units that are actually unique and different to Imperial stuff (I think that Maulerfiends and Spawn are really good Chaos units – in terms of design if not in terms of how good they are in the meta – not as versatile as Imperial stuff, but faster and more aggressive and focused on one job). Giving Chaos a new special weapon type is not something I particularly want to see because that’s just what the Imperials did, but more differenter. If they did add a new gun I’d be a sucker for giving them greater access to Hades Autocannons, Balefire, and Ectoplasma guns, considering they already have some of those in the book.

        • Avatar
          hillshire August 28, 2016 7:29 am #

          Some good points there. I agree. Too much wish listing based on loyalists and we end up with spiky Ultramarines with bad hygiene, the flavor would be lost. Better for CSM to have their own distinctive equipment and traits which are equally effective.

          • Avatar
            punchymango August 28, 2016 8:54 pm

            That’s the thing. I love CSM, I’d play them if they were even halfway decent, but I don’t want legion tactics or whatever.

            I just want their chaos tech to work. Marks that are worth taking, psyker powers that don’t amount to “roll on telepathy, lol”, daemon engines that don’t suck.

        • Avatar
          Blight1 August 30, 2016 8:32 am #

          Well grav was not restricted to just the iron hands.
          List of units that could take grav no matter which legion they were;
          Dreadnoughts, tech marines, breacher squads, and maybe combi grav(can’t seem to find the list available). I have never asked for stormshields since they were limited to ImpFists and Sallies

          The problem with the CSM codex and what you want from it is that it lacks chaos space marines. The legion rules were something we used to have and then were taken from us and given to space marines. They go a long way towards making fluffy CSM lists and we miss them. We play chaos marines because we love the chaos marines and the legions that birthed them. Why should a space marine player get to paint their army a certain way and get special rules and I don’t? I have entire units that used to be legal and now aren’t. You want to see something different from regular marines then try fighting a whole unit of psychic chosen riding discs of Tzeentch, Slaanesh marines high on combat drugs, khorne marines hacking through terminators through sheer bloodymindedness, and Nurgle marines killing by just being near you.
          Chaos is bitter because we lost all our fluffy and interesting differences from space marines and they got them. Now we are the most vanilla marines out there.

  8. Avatar
    hillshire August 26, 2016 8:20 pm #

    Grav is also handy way of identifying codex loyalty by their reaction:

    Love and adore grav = Vanilla Marines and Dark Angels for how effective it is and Daemons for how ineffective it is (Daemons laugh as you try for 6s and then can’t get past their Grimoired and Cursed Earth Invul save). Daemon players love encouraging Loyalists to take moar grav, it’s all a Tzeentch plot. Seems to be working

    Jealousy and spite = Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Chaos Marines because they should have it too but don’t. Where are their grav-buddies?!

    Love Hate relationship = Imperial Guard, Harlequins, and Dark Eldar. Love how many points in grav it costs to barely wound a few infantry but hate how grav wrecks their vehicles

    Confusion = Skitarii/Cult Mechanicus (better known as War Convocation). Some units are bothered by it while others are not and some even laugh as the grav is bounced back to kill the shooter

    Antipathy = Necrons would care more if their lack luster saves and pervasive Feel No Pain didn’t make grav lose most of its effectiveness.

    Schadenfreude = Iron Hands. They get the privilege of spewing grav like a fire hose while laughing off its ineffectiveness from behind their wall of Storm Shields and Feel No Pain. The only reason Iron Hands haven’t taken over the universe is White Scars have cool girl rules and UIltramarines have Tiggy and can re-roll everything. Mostly.

    Raging hatred = Tau and Eldar. Only one thing prevents the incredible rate of fire of the Tau and the trickery of the Eldar from ruling every game, friendly or tournament: fear of grav one-shotting their jumping monstrosities. So they take even more of them so that when one Riptide Wing falls, there’s another Riptide Wing or some Y’vahra to step up and take their place.

    Abstinence makes the heart grow fonder = Orks. I really wish I knew what they thought. I’ve seen them across the room, wild beautiful creatures that they are, but have not yet seen one across the gaming table. Much as it would be fun to blame this on grav, grav isn’t all that great against them. By the time you’ve shot up their transports they’re already assaulting you. Or at least that’s what I’ve heard from the privileged few who have encountered them

    Who? = Sisters of Battle and Inquisition. I’ve seen Coteaz (though not as much as before, I thought he was required for all occasions for a few years there were so many clones of him out there) but the rest are as rare as Orks. Maybe they’re all hanging out together somewhere.

    • Michael Corr
      Michael Corr August 27, 2016 2:32 am #

      Love it!

    • Avatar
      Arrias117 August 29, 2016 10:47 am #

      You forgot about the Tyranids but, then again, so has GW.

      • Avatar
        fluger August 29, 2016 5:51 pm #

        I laughed while crying.

  9. Avatar
    Axis of Entropy August 26, 2016 9:39 pm #

    This is a good article.

  10. Avatar
    VonCrown August 27, 2016 9:09 am #

    So, real talk time, obviously grav guns are a bit on the unbalanced side, having supplanted pretty much every other special and heavy weapon choice and severely punishing many already sub-optimal unit choices.

    So what do people think would be a good way to maintain their unique identity while reining them in a bit? I think adjusting their ap value might be a good approach. Specifically, I think making them ap 5/6/-, and giving them a special rule that targets take a -2 penalty to armor saves instead. So 2+ targets are getting wounded on 2s and are saving on 4s, etc.
    Also, perhaps you could bring back their original role as suppression weapons by giving them some sort of up-jumped version of pinning (targets take a penalty to the leadership test, or maybe just a stipulation that it works on fearless units and requires a strength test instead of leadership?)

    Idle speculation I know, as nothing is going to happen, but it’s the sort of thing I think about.

    • Avatar
      AngryPanda August 27, 2016 9:20 am #

      The mechanic is such an issue I don’t think it can realy be salvaged. The schtick of high rate of fire and easy wounds and AP2 is just such bad design. I’d ask how that can even happen but then that design studio has to be full of so much smoke..
      They could have done something about them crushing things according to their mass and thus wounding easier to high toughtness than low which could have been something of a reverse twist. Also control effects, like units moving as if in Dif terrain afterwards or such. Definatly nothing like the AP2.

    • Avatar
      Darthdiggler August 27, 2016 10:22 am #

      Leave Grav as is against toughness, let it be the Riptide killer it was supposed to be. Take away any and all affects against vehicles to balance it out. Units with an armor value are immune to Grav. That’s how I would balance it.

      • Avatar
        AngryPanda August 27, 2016 11:12 am #

        That’s not the worst idea. It would at least take it’s ability to destroy all targets better than anything else.

        • Avatar
          Dakkath August 28, 2016 12:41 am #

          I’m of the opinion to change the grav gun to rapid fire and the cannon to heavy 3 (and swap the salvo 3/5 profile over to the heavy bolter while we’re at it).

          Either change the immobilized vs vehicles to a stun that can’t be reduced by extra armor or make it so it immobilizes but doesn’t also remove a hull point.

      • Avatar
        VonCrown August 27, 2016 9:57 pm #

        The thing is, it’s hard to leave it at full power vs. Riptides without it also basically singlehandedly completely neutering any Tyranid unit on the ground, and basically making that codex impossible to balance. It needs to come down at the top end a little for the sake of freeing up design space.

    • Avatar
      PrimoFederalist August 27, 2016 10:57 am #

      I think they should be Rapid Fire (Heavy 3 for Cannon) and a cost a bit more. Still a great weapon, but harder to spam and abuse.

    • Avatar
      MidnightSun August 27, 2016 2:10 pm #

      Remove Grav Amps and stop putting Grav on fast-moving or Drop Pod-deploying Relentless units. Bikes can’t get it, Centurions can only embark on Land Raiders. Possibly make the Grav Cannon Salvo 2/4 instead of 3/5 and let them keep Amps.

      Because while people complain about ‘grav guns’ all the time, I don’t think anybody has ever actually brought a ‘Grav Gun’ on anything other than Bikers, and I don’t see people running HGC Kataphron other than the mandatory unit for War Convocation. The problem is in Grav Cannons with Amps.

      • Avatar
        hillshire August 28, 2016 7:08 am #

        “stop putting Grav on fast-moving or Drop Pod-deploying Relentless units. Bikes can’t get it, Centurions can only embark on Land Raiders. ”

        Which insures that grav won’t be able to get in range for at least two game turns while they’re being shot by long range fire from Eldar and Tau heavy and D weapons on Relentless platforms.

        • Avatar
          punchymango August 28, 2016 8:59 pm #

          And this is why I’m hoping GW just resets the rules for 8e. AoS me, my body is ready.

          Because atm, the whole system is just bloated and fucked up. Entire factions are relegated to loaning out a single formation in competitive play. Anything that can’t move 12″ a turn, shit thunderbolts in all directions at will, and reroll all its dice every turn is garbage. Melee units need to be nigh-immune to damage to survive how utterly stupidly lethal shooting has become.

          • Avatar
            Happy_Inquisitor August 29, 2016 2:41 am

            Being able to easily get into assault is much less of a game issue if missile troops can just keep shooting when in combat. AoS seems to have that one sorted.

    • Avatar
      Arrias117 August 29, 2016 10:50 am #

      Would against armor save. Toughness test to ignore wound.


      • Avatar
        fluger August 29, 2016 5:52 pm #

        I say strength, but yeah.

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    AngryPanda August 27, 2016 11:15 am #

    On a completly unrelated note towards the rules. Seeing that pic over and over really makes me wonder what made them decide that THIS is the design Space Marines are missing. The Grav Gun looks like so much “meh”. That thing could be anything, nothing about it says strange hi-tech to me. At best generic sci fi energy gun. That might just be me but since we do know they design models first and rules later I realy wonder why they suddenly thought they need to make all versions of marines carriyng those things.

  12. Avatar
    Charles Keeling August 28, 2016 10:35 am #

    Grav needs to be ap- then you would see a reset on it.

    • Michael Corr
      Michael Corr August 28, 2016 10:42 am #

      Grav does need toning down in the current game, but I wouldn’t go too far.
      Have you ever tried dealing with three Riptides or an Imperial Knight or Wraithknight without grav? Especially with the draft FAQs likely to limit grenades to one per assault phase.

      Yes there are other ways take them out. You can always use Meltaguns, but you better hope that you hit with their one shot and roll an explosion on the penetrating table and roll high for the hull point reduction, because next turn you are getting assaulted and wiped out.

      I would probably remove the immobilising element from the weapon. That way it is not as punishing against vehicles and you actually need to roll those 6’s to take them out.

      • Avatar
        AbusePuppy August 28, 2016 10:44 pm #

        >Have you ever tried dealing with three Riptides or an Imperial Knight or Wraithknight without grav?

        hello my name is every faction in the game that isn’t space marines and i am proud to meet you so yes i have done this thing before

        • Michael Corr
          Michael Corr August 29, 2016 12:19 am #

          In the last game with my Guard, I took on 2 Knights. After 6 game turns, I had managed to take one down to 1 hull point and hadn’t even touched the other. I only tried taking them out once everything else was dead as shooting at them was proving useless and a waste of my firepower.

          My Orks really cannot deal with Imperial Knights at all and it is pointless going up against Tau with them, never mind Riptides.

          Most fractions don’t have access to grav, yes, but that doesn’t mean that they can easily take down those threats mentioned.

          • Avatar
            Alex Yuen August 29, 2016 2:42 am

            Michael are you new to the game?

          • Michael Corr
            Michael Corr August 29, 2016 3:09 am

            No, I’ve been playing since 3rd edition. Why?

          • Avatar
            AbusePuppy August 29, 2016 7:59 am

            IG is really good at taking down Knights. Vendettas, Meltabomb blobs, Pask, Melta Veterans, and more can all do massive damage to them- and if you spent six turns doing five HP to a single Knight, either your opponent was getting crazy-lucky with Ion Shield saves or you were doing something horribly wrong. (Or you were playing a 1000pt game, I guess, but even then…)

            Grav isn’t even a very good tool against a Knight. Needing sixes and no chance to get the extra d3 with an Explode result means you need a LOT of shots to do any damage.

            Orks certainly can have trouble with Knights, but S10 Power Klaws (from Warbosses and/or Zhardsnark) and massed Meltabombs (from Tankbustas) will both do a number on them.

            Tau don’t struggle against Knights at all. They have nigh-unlimited S7 shots with excellent maneuverability, abundant Tank Hunter and other effects to reroll penetrations, long-range Melta weapons on mobile and Deep Striking platforms, S9/10 ordnance weapons, and even a few Destroyer weapons for good measure.

            Your analysis, in other words, seems to fall woefully short of the mark.

          • Avatar
            Threllen August 30, 2016 8:03 am

            A standard meltagun is going to do far more damage than a grav gun against a Knight. Assuming 13 armour (but casting aside the ion shield), 3 shots of a grav gun from a BS4 marine is going to net you 1/3 hullpoints on average. A meltagun in melta range has a 48% chance to pen (plus another 11% chance to glance) which means it would average 5/9 hullpoints before even factoring in causing excess HP through an explodes results on a pen.

            While grav is extremely overpowered due to the fact it can shred high value MCs/Infantry with ease as well as wreak havoc on normal vehicles, it’s actually pretty underwhelming against super heavies.

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    Ragnulf August 29, 2016 7:16 am #

    In a world without grav, Codex marines would be middle tier at best, or reduced to lending out their conclaves to other imperial factions.

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      winterman August 29, 2016 8:59 am #

      Bull pucky. They’d just have to look at all the other options that get ignored cause of grav. Like twinlinked melta, tankhunter lascannons, etc. They’d still have more obsec then anyone else, still have the best psychic support in the game, still have the best morale rules in the game, still more options for different play styles than any range in the game. Could go on.

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        Vercingatorix August 29, 2016 12:21 pm #

        I don’t know. I tend to agree with Ragnulf. I feel like grav really makes marines a great counter to eldar that would be really hard to replicate with other weapons.

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          abusepuppy August 29, 2016 1:09 pm #

          Grav is strong against the _Wraithknight_, not against Eldar- it’s actually a very mediocre weapon for killing jetbikes and Warp Spiders, since it does nothing to mitigate their primary defenses (mobility, staying out of LOS.)

          SM would obviously be a lot weaker if Grav didn’t exist and arguably might not be a top-tier army anymore, but the Battle Company is extremely strong on its own and they have access to a lot of powerful other choices- including the Librarius Conclave- that I guarantee would still keep them relevant to the game even with its absence.

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            Vercingatorix August 29, 2016 6:55 pm

            Really? I feel like scouting/drop prod grav really picks up eldar models. I played with the skyhammer for one doubles tournament and literally killed 1250 points my first turn with a 1250 list. We had skyhammer with grav plus a 3 man centstar with hunters eye. The eldar player literally had 5 reapers left after turn 1.

            granted he didn’t run the all warp spider version of eldar but being able to counter jetbikes and wraithnkights is pretty huge.

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            abusepuppy August 30, 2016 1:37 am

            A good Eldar player is either going to have access to a bunch of Interceptor (via Tau allies) or not put many of his models on the board when playing against a reserve army- Eldar simply don’t have any other options when fighting reserves unless they brought a Void Shield and can keep you from being able to get close enough.

            Not all Eldar armies are pure Warp Spiders, but Jetbikes, Spiders, Hawks, and several of the other popular Eldar choices are largely immune to Grav, so it’s really only the Wraithknight and a handful of other models (like the Warp Hunter) that suffer from it.

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            vercingatorix August 30, 2016 5:12 am

            All there stuff has a 3+ save just like marines. Do you think grav is bad against marines? And to the original point. If they didn’t have grav, what would be more effective? Bolters? Grav says “jink or that whole squad is dead” nothing really compares.

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            Threllen August 30, 2016 8:07 am

            Vercing it’s not just about the armour save. Yes grav will wound bikes on a 3+. But they still have their cover save. They also have extreme movement speed and grav is a relatively short ranged affair if it doesn’t have alpha strike (which an experienced Eldar player can try to negate through a few of the methods AP already mentioned).

            And Warp Spiders are so highly mobile you’ll try to shoot them with grav and they’ll just jump away. Doesn’t matter if their armour is 3+ if you can’t hit them.

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            Vercingatorix August 30, 2016 9:27 am

            If you guys have played that match up then I believe you. It’s hard to quantify mobility’s advantage. I’ve mainly played with orks and daemons. Skyhammer is pretty unusual way to play marines. I think it really does hurt eldar a lot because they can’t really null deploy or they WILL get tabled. Also, obviously when they’re buffed up with invis and shrouding they often don’t care.

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        hillshire August 29, 2016 6:10 pm #

        Here’s a math exercise for you. Calculate how many meltagun and/or lascannon shots it takes to kill 3 Riptides (Riptide Wing) and 2 Stormsurges while taking into account their Invulnerable saves and Feel No Pain. You might be surprised.

        • Michael Corr
          Michael Corr August 30, 2016 12:05 am #

          That was my thinking too. I’m not saying Marines don’t have other weapons to deal with Riptides or Stormsurges, but how many units worth of fire would you need to pour into them to kill them off.

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          Dakkath August 30, 2016 12:50 am #

          I actually did this as a thought exercise a while back. Assuming my math is right:

          Gravgun vs Riptide with fnp ≈ 21 shots to kill
          Grav cannon vs Riptide w/ fnp ≈ 18 shots to kill
          double these numbers if they have their 3++ active instead of their normal 5++

          Gravgun vs Stormsurge with 4++ ≈ 54 shots to kill
          Grav cannon vs Stormsurge w/ 4++ ≈ 41 shots to kill

          Melta/Lascannon vs Riptide w/ fnp ≈ 7 shots to kill, 14 with 3++ active
          Melta/Lascannon vs Stormsurge w/ 4++ ≈ 44 shots to kill

          My calculations assume bs4 without rerolls on the shooters and no cover saves beyond the invuls already on the targets.

          In addition I did not try to account for units of more than 1 that would allow a partially injured target to shuffle back and let a fully healthy teammate soak damage for it. However, that would be something to keep in mind for Stormsurges.

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            Dakkath August 30, 2016 12:55 am

            Shoot, missed a variable in the melta/las vs riptide calculation.

            That should actually be ≈ 20 shots to kill a Riptide w/ fnp and 40-41 to kill a Riptide w/ fnp and 3++

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            vercingatorix August 30, 2016 5:08 am

            Lol, I was like “huh, 7 seems incredibly reasonable actually”

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            Blight1 August 30, 2016 8:47 am

            That math seems way off to me.
            Considering that the grav has the same to wound and ap value they should require the same number of shots required to kill. The deciding factor would be the re-rolls to wound and the reality that grav weapons have far more shots per gun so can actually reach the amount required to kill on average.

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