BAO Results: Dark Angels Don’t Need Allies to Win!


Hello everyone! PeteyPab here with some BAO coverage and tournament predictions. Congratulations to the BAO champion Brandon Grant and everyone else who made the top 8!

As you’re reading this right now I am probably in the back seat of a truck, sleeping. Reece smells really bad, Frankie is trying to figure out why he can’t win an Age of Sigmar game, and some driver in LA just cut us off for a marginal decrease in the time it will take for him to get his morning Mickey Ds. The BAO is upon us, and with it comes camaraderie, cheesy lists, and more bottom table drinking games then I would care to admit in this article. Read on weary travelers, and find out what you’re going to encounter at this year’s BAO.

Winning List below as well as a BAO recap

A New Venue


The guys over at Game Kastle are helping us running it this year. They are providing the terrain, the tables, and the space. They did a great job choosing a large enough venue for the BAO and their help gives everyone over here at Frontline more time to make sure everything else about the event runs as smoothly as a model over one of our F.A.T. mats (shameless advertising? check)

Our Warhammer 40k Community

bao 2015

I may not always get along with everyone in our community 100% of the time, but I do love and appreciate every single person that makes the effort to come to events and share a mutual love for our game and hobby. It is a wonderful experience to see both spirited competitors, and talented hobbyists drinking together, laughing at dice rolls, and generally having a good time.

Speaking of Spirited Competitors….

Confused Geoff


With 2015 winner Alan Bajramovic and 2014 winner Steve Sisk nowhere in sight it is time for a new player to wear the coveted Belt of Russ. There are a lot of good players coming out but I am going to narrow it down to my three favorites to win the entire thing.


Julio is hungry for some BAO glory. He has quietly had one of his best ITC seasons yet. With a Best General win at the Broadside Bash and one of the best meta Eldar lists Julio is looking to break out with a dominant GT win. There are some rumors going on about Julio bringing a Blood Angels battle company list flying around, and if that’s the case Julio is the guy that can finally bring glory to the Space Vampires.

  • Round 1: W 11-2 against a battle company
  • Round 2: W 11-0 against Tau monster mash
  • Round 3: W 8-4 against Dark Angels Battle Company
  • Round 4: T 6-6 against Seer Council
  • Round 5: L 9-4 against 45 Warp Spiders
  • Round 6: L 11-2 against Tau

matt root silly

Matt Root knows his stuff. I thought maybe after hearing his story about how he got into the top 8 at Adepticon, his glory might be a fluke. He quickly silenced my doubts however with a dominant win at the Flying Monkey GT and is now sitting pretty at the top of the ITC rankings. Matt knows his stuff and as soon as I saw his name on the registration list I knew he would be a player to watch. Also, if you want to know what kind of list he will possibly bring here is a List-Tech article I did on his AdMech list.

  • Round 1: W 11-1 against Daemons
  • Round 2: W 11-1 against Space Marines
  • Round 3: W 11-1 against Battle Company
  • Round 4: W 9-2 against Tau (Mason was unable to play)
  • Round 5: W 11-1 against Eldar
  • Round 6: T 6-6 against 30 Warp Spiders Eldar


James thinking

James and Frankie are the only players in the top 20 ITC rankings with only 4 games under their belt (Edit: Sorry Vincent Arroyo!) Of the players with 4 games, James is the highest sitting at 11th. James is on fire this season, he may only have 4 games but almost all of them are dominant wins among quality competition and he is practicing non-stop against some really solid competition (and me…). His Cyclopian Cabal list is terrifying, and he is poised to have a great 2016 ITC season.

  • Round 1: W 11-1 against Tau
  • Round 2: W 7-3 against Battle Company
  • Round 3: W 10-0 against Space Wolves
  • Round 4: W 11-0 against Bike Scars
  • Round 5: L 6-5 against Dark Angels (The BAO champ)
  • Round 6: W 11-0 against Chaos Daemons


Round 1 update: So far the first round has been laid back and fun. There were no player issues, the tournaments started on time, and there were no upsets. All three of the people I picked to win the event started with dominant round 1 wins. Next up is round 2 the relic. Traditionally a lot of armies that are strong in the ITC format also play the relic mission really well but this should be the round where you hope you aren’t up against a deathstar.

Round 2 update: So after round 2 all of the players I predicted are 2-0 with nearly perfect scores (damnit James!) Geoff “Incontrol” Robinson won a very close match against Trevor Sandoval, a top player with an interesting fluff killer list. Wulfen, Riptide Wing, and Eldar. It was easily the most entertaining game of the round and is the style of game you would expect from a top table in the final round. Another interesting note, 2 of the top 5 players right now are Dark Angels primary, and neither of them are using a deathstar. Go Dark Angels!

Round 3 update: I am going to make this quick because I want to highlight some awesome 3-0 lists, give you guys an army breakdown, and get to some player predictions. Basically Round 3 had a couple of big time match ups, specifically Incontrol losing to a really awesome Dark Angels Battle company (below) and Alex Gonzalez beating a really solid Space Wolves thunderstar and becoming the only Necron player with 3 wins. Speaking of Necrons lets get to the army breakdown.

Round 4 update: There were a lot of ties in round 4 and right now there are only 6 undefeated players. This is exciting because we can potentially have only one undefeated person win the entire event, or maybe even none if a lot more ties occur. This may leave the door open for players who have been flying under the radar all weekend to win. (See more results below)

The venue

Bay Area Open Army Breakdown

Dark Eldar: 6
Astra Militarum: 9
Skitarii: 5
Eldar: 19
Tyranids: 8
Space Wolves: 9
Khorne Daemonkin: 5
Space Marines: 32
Blood Angels: 4
Tau Empire: 13
Dark Angels: 9
Imperial Knights: 9
Cult Mechanicus: 8
Necrons: 8
Orks: 6
Harlequins: 4
Chaos Daemons: 10
Eldar Corsairs: 1
Militarum Tempestus: 1
Grey Knights: 2
Chaos Space Marines: 2
Renegades: 1
Officio Assassinorum: 1
So not bad! I understand there are 63 marine type armies on the board but hey, compared to some other tournaments the percentage of Eldar, Tau, and Daemons is actually quite low. Space Marines are the most popular army in 40k, period. If you break it down further I would imagine a full 3rd of the vanilla space marine armies are actual “white scars” battle companies. Also judging by the lack of deathstars in the top 16 I think it is safe to say that space marine deathstars are not as dominant as some people may have you believe.
guard v orks
Top 16 Round 4 Predictions: So here I am basically going to go over each of the players in the first 8 tables and give you my predictions for who I think will win. (Disclaimer: This is purely my opinion and should not be taken seriously).
  • Table 1: Matt Root (War Convocation) vs. Mason Vasquez (ThunderStar). Matt Root is the only player with maximum battle points and has quickly become the player to beat at the tournament. In this case I think Mason on paper should beat Matt Root with his deathstar in The Scouring, however I have to go with the hot player (Sorry Mason love ya buddy!) and Matt Root is as hot as they come. [Matt Root wins 7-5] Update: Matt Root wins  9-2. Matt continues to look unbeatable. 
  • Table 2: Brandon Grant (Dark Angels Company) vs. Carlos Kaiser (GuardDar). This match up is easily going to be the match to watch round 4. Brandon is coming off of a sexy win over Incontrol and Carlos has a tough unique list which suits his playstyle perfectly. Both of these guys are cerebral players and watching these two put on a knowledge clinic of the game should be a real treat. [Brandon Grant wins 9-1] Update: Brandon Grant wins 6-5. In a game that went down to the wire. 
  • Table 3: Julio Rodriguez (Julio’s Eldar Special) vs. Matt Schuchman (Eldar Seer CouncilStar). I have never been a big fan of Seer Councils and even though Matt knows how to run his list to maximum efficiency I think Julio has a streamlined Eldar list that is just hard for any list to beat. Besides, Julio is rocking the D. [Julio Rodriguez wins 11-0] Update: Both players tie 6-6. Julio is the first of the favorites to fall almost out of the running. Julio has an outside chance to win. 
  • Table 4: Alex Gonzalez (Necrons Zandrekh Build-A-Star) vs. Andrew Ford (Eldar w/ Inquisition). Alex’s Necron list is terrifying. Zandrekh is the best HQ choice no one is using and his list is well thought out and hard to beat in the hands of a skilled player. I think Andrew has his work cut out for him, after all Warp Spiders are fast attack options. [Alex Gonzalez wins 10-1] Update: Andrew Ford wins 6-5. This looked like a very close, tactical game. 
  • Table 5: Ben Vizcarra (Eldar) vs. Michael Schwartz (White Scars Battle Company). Michael the Schwartz will not be with you this game. Eldar have the tools to make any battle company player’s day miserable and Ben brought them all. I think Michael has a real shot to win if he pulls ahead with some ballsy 3 pointers in maelstrom but statistics tell us Ben wins this game most of the time. [Ben Vizcarra wins 11-1] Update: Ben Vizcarra wins 11-1. Michael had a hard time killing Ben’s shifty Eldar.
  • Table 6: James Carmona (Cabal Star) vs. Nathaniel Emond (White Scars Bikes w/ Inquisition). James is shooting for the win, and Matt Root’s spot at the top of the ITC. And to do that he needs to go through Nathaniel and his bikes. The knight-atrapos the White Scars invited to the party does have a chance to ruin James’ day but I am not sure if James is going to give it the chance. [James Carmona wins 11-0] Update: James Carmona wins 11-0. This game went pretty much as expected. 
  • Table 7: Peter Kelly (45 Warp Spiders) vs. Trevor Van Cleave (Tau). Gag, two elite top tier armies beating each other to a pulp with the cheesiest combinations possible. I want to go with Peter Kelly and the ultimate net list (it did win the LVO after all) but Trevor’s army is prettier and warp spiders are fast attack options so… Go Tau! [Trevor Van Cleave wins 8-2] Update: Both players tie 7-7. I should have predicted more ties in this round, players are so good at these higher tables.
  • Table 8: Matt Barlow (Tyranids (OMG!)) vs. Don Hooson (Iron Hands Deathstar Company). So Matt may be running the most generic Tyranid list you could think of, and Don’s list is a beautiful Minotaurs themed Iron Hands army however, Don how many long island iced teas do I need to buy you to get you to concede? 20? Ok, proceed to beat up on the underdog… [Don Hooson wins 11-1] Update: Matt Barlow wins 11-1. Next time I’m just going to go with the underdog.
reece our lord and saviour

Reece announcing the winners

BAO Results and Top List

Brandon Grant beats Matthew Schuchman and his Eldar Seer council to become the only player in the tournament to finish 6-0. Brandon’s Dark Angels (below) took care of business against 4 opponents with 5 wins, and 3 players who won their respective “best of faction” rewards. Brandon was matched against an insanely diverse and talented group of players (Daemons, Eldar, Orks, Ad Mech, GuardDar, and Imperial Knights). Not only that, but he did it with a list that is widely regarded as inferior to it’s big brother the White Scars battle company. Good Job Brandon, way to take the sacred belt of Russ away from those pesky space puppies. Azrael would be proud.

Another note, there were three undefeated players at the start of round 6. Brandon got paired down, and Matt Root and Andrew Ford played an intense game that saw both a knight, and wraithknight go down to not so accurate Eldar artillery. Their game ended in a draw which paved the way for Brandon to finish 6-0. You can find the rest of the top 8 on the bestcoast app but i’m going to go over them here as well. I also plan on adding more pictures when I get back home, because this hotel internet connection is hot garbage.

BAO champ

The Top 8

1) Brandon Grant  [6-0]
Dark Angels Battle Company

2) Matt Root [5-0-1]
Melee oriented War Convocation

3) Michael Snider [5-0-1]
White Scars Battle Company

4) Andrew Ford [5-0-1]
30 Warp Spiders Eldar

5) Thomas Hegstrom Oakey [5-0-1]
White Scars Battle Company

6) Carlos Kaiser [5-1]
GuardDar with Inquisition

7) Geoff Robinson [5-1]
War Convocation with a Librarius Conclave

8) James Carmona [5-1]
Chaos Daemons Cabal Star/Mini Screamer Star

Here is your top 8, I will be posting up each list and a brief analysis up on the Frontlinegaming site periodically over the next few weeks. If there is any player in the 25 you would like to have me review please let me know in the comments down below! 

brandons army

Brandon Grant’s Dark Angels

Lion’s Blade Strike Force

Company Master: (Warlord) Fist, Artificer Armor

Chaplain: Bike, Auspex

Tactical Squad: Rhino, Grav-Cannon,

Tactical Squad: Rhino, Multi-Melta

Tactical Squad: Razorback (HB), Heavy Bolter

Tactical Squad: Razorback (HB)

Tactical Squad: Razorback (HB)

Tactical Squad: Pod, Melta/Combi-Melta

Assault Squad: 2x Flamers, Pod

Assault Squad: 2x Flamers, Pod

Devastator Squad: Rhino, Grav-Cannon

Devastator Squad: Rhino, Grav-Cannon


Ravenwing Strike Force

Techmarine: Bike, Auspex

Ravenwing Command Squad: 5 Black Knights, Apothecary, 5 Plasma Talons, Grenade Launcher

Ravenwing Black Knight Squad: 5 Black Knights, Huntmaster, 5 Plasma Talons, Grenade Launcher

Ravenwing Darkshroud

Belt of Brandon

BAO Picture Gallery Below

Lava Table

P1040270 P1040292 P1040357 P1040362 P1040364

reece said so Aviator MetaMafia 40kalex

MattRoots knight

Andrew Fords NecronDar

Lang Nelson's Renaissance Man Tau list Matt Roots army

manta opened manta diplomats Izzy Manta izzys army behind izzys manta Inside of izzys manta


About Petey Pab

Aspiring 40k analyst, tournament reporter and Ultramarines enthusiast, Petey Pab only seeks to gather more knowledge about the game of 40k and share it with as many people as he can in order to unite both hobbyists and gamers. We are, after all, two sides of the same coin.

123 Responses to “BAO Results: Dark Angels Don’t Need Allies to Win!”

  1. masos July 15, 2016 9:41 am #

    My sweet pablo. You forgot about me 🙂

  2. Heldericht July 16, 2016 1:32 pm #

    Keep the updates coming, Pablo!

  3. W July 16, 2016 1:46 pm #

    Love and appreciate this coverage! Paying attention from the other side of the planet here, lol

    • Petey Pab July 16, 2016 1:54 pm #

      Thanks man! Yeah it’s awesome over here right now. Everyone is being really friendly and the general feeling is that of friendly competition. I can’t wait for day 2.

  4. Orwell July 16, 2016 2:20 pm #

    Is there a stream?

  5. Porco July 16, 2016 3:28 pm #

    Can we get some of dem sweet InControl convocation updates?

    • Julnlecs July 16, 2016 7:46 pm #

      He lost Round 3 to Brandon Grant’s Dark Angels.

  6. Iago July 16, 2016 4:43 pm #

    Where can i have a look at those dark angels lists?

    • Mcsardo July 16, 2016 7:45 pm #

      Definitely also curious about the non deathstar DA lists.

      • Petey Pab July 17, 2016 3:08 pm #

        Brandon’s list is very interesting. His fist captain does a lot of work!

        • Blackferret July 18, 2016 7:21 am #

          How does he use the fist captain exactly? That piece is puzzling me.

          • Petey Pab July 18, 2016 7:55 pm

            He uses it to perplex his opponents and give them the impression that he is a casual player with a soft list. I think.

  7. westrider July 16, 2016 9:21 pm #

    OMG, Ben, that hat! 😀

  8. doktor_g July 16, 2016 11:39 pm #

    I must destroy IronHandAlex…

    Side note thinking of skipping game 4 so i can watch Root vs Vasquez!!!!

    Shasta Represent!!!!

  9. t.nid July 17, 2016 12:05 am #

    How do Matt Barlowa nid-list look like? The usual suspects?(5flyrant 4mawlocs?)

    • Petey Pab July 17, 2016 3:08 pm #

      5 flyrants, 2 mawlocs, 4 lichtors, a Malenthrope, and spores.

  10. Ahzek15th July 17, 2016 12:20 am #

    Thanks for taking the time to fill us in. Its much appreciated!

  11. Loofanator July 17, 2016 3:34 am #

    Thanks for doing this!
    As a fellow necron player, can you give me some detail on Alex Gonzalez’s list please?

    • punchymango July 18, 2016 9:39 am #

      I’d like to know also.

      • Duh_Ruckus July 19, 2016 9:48 am #

        I played against Alex this tournament, phenomal player with a brutal list,

        From what I remember
        Necron cad, royal court, destroyer cult
        (7 lych guard with war scythes)
        2 overlords
        Destroyer cult with all the usual suspects

        The real secret that kicked my ass two Necron pylons on a void shield generator

        • Requizen July 19, 2016 11:21 am #

          Wait, Warscythe Lychguard with Sentry Pylons? That’s an… interesting force.

          • Duh_Ruckus July 19, 2016 11:38 am

            He throws all the heroes into a massive blob, my Thunderwolves and wulfen couldn’t crack, and pylons dish out outrageous damage, the combo that got me was I had most my army stuck in combat against his star and was winning, he veiled out and my guys were clumped from being in cc he death lasered most of them. Alex is a phenomal player

          • Requizen July 19, 2016 12:08 pm

            I’m surprised Wolfstar couldn’t crack Lychstar. Warscythe Lychguard don’t have an Invuln, and most ICs only have a 4++ at best and T5 without Eternal Warrior. How was he tanking all those S10 hits? I feel like you easily should have at least crippled it.

            And I agree that Death Ray Sentry Pylons are underrated. They do a very solid amount of damage but require good planning to use since they don’t have massive range and also can’t move + shoot.

          • Duh_Ruckus July 19, 2016 12:27 pm

            2 turns of RES orbs and lords with phase shifters and orikan, I was killing it but he teleported away

  12. Alex r July 17, 2016 6:00 am #

    Man that dark angel list is good but i cant get the points right

    • elphilo July 17, 2016 7:07 am #

      Is it the vehicles? Because Lion’s Blade with double Demi Company gives free vehicles as well.

  13. Mike July 17, 2016 11:26 am #

    Any rare Pokemon disrupting the tourney? XD

  14. Kwodd July 17, 2016 11:46 am #

    What was the top Tyranid list? 5 flyrant, 3 Mawloc?

  15. CtG July 17, 2016 1:40 pm #

    Hey, could we see Don’s IH list?

    • Petey Pab July 17, 2016 3:11 pm #

      Don’s list was a bunch of bikes. I think i’m gonna do a list-tech on it.

      • Donthemagnificent July 18, 2016 3:33 am #

        CAD Iron Hands

        Chapter Master, Bike, Power Fist, Shield Eternal

        Chapter Master, Bike, Power Fist, Lightning Claw, Gorgon’s Chain

        Command Squad, Bikes, 3x Power Fist, 4x Storm Shield, Apothecary, Standard of the Emperor Ascendant

        Command Squad, Bikes, 3x Power Fist, 4x Storm Shield, Apothecary

        Command Squad, Bikes, 3x Power Fist, 4x Storm Shield, Apothecary

        5 Man Scout Squad , Bolter/Bolt Pistol

        5 Man Scout Squad, Bolter/Bolt Pistol

        Librarius Conclave

        Librarian, Bike, ML2, Mindforge Stave

        Librarian, Bike, ML2, Force Staff

        Librarian, Bike, ML2, Force Staff

        Librarian, Bike, ML2, Force Axe

        • donthemagnificent July 18, 2016 4:32 pm #

          Each command squad was 5 bikes. I apologize. I was typing that on the plane on my phone.

  16. Will Grant July 17, 2016 3:47 pm #

    So whose winning?

  17. Heldericht July 17, 2016 8:29 pm #

    A bit disappointed in the coverage. Seems haphazard and hasn’t been updated fully even now.

    Getting a better one from other sites like blood of kittens.

    • Petey Pab July 18, 2016 12:45 am #

      Yes, BoK did get out the coverage a lot faster. Helping run a tournament, and constantly updating a blog is a bit tough. I am working to improve though!
      Once we get back home there will be a lot more coverage. Lists, pictures, best of results. Etc.

      • Heldericht July 18, 2016 9:48 am #

        I’m not saying it’s easy, Pablo. I’m sure you had plenty to take care of, and I (as well as everyone else) really appreciate the full update and pics you’ve put up now. It was really great that you put up the DA list up as well upon request mid tournament.

        I’m just saying that since this is one of the biggest 40k tourneys in the world and it is being run by you guys at FLG, I think I was just expecting a lot more updates throughout the day. Especially when it had wrapped up. Even a simple “Here’s the winner, more updates to come tomorrow as things need to be wrapped up here” or something would have been sufficient.

        I know people need to be taken care of there, but there are hundreds if not thousands of people who came to this article looking to follow along. There are no streams or anything, so the live blog is all we have.

        Maybe the responsibility can be delegated to someone else who can focus on it more fully or (ideally) have some stuff taken off your plate so you can focus on the updates since you have in depth knowledge about the players and the meta.

        Great job regardless and I’m really looking forward to your list-tech articles, as those were very insightful after the LVO.

        • White925 July 18, 2016 1:51 pm #

          Heldericht sorry your disappointed by our coverage of the event. If you want live updates attending the event is the best way. or check out the app we used to run the tournament

          • Heldericht July 18, 2016 8:53 pm

            Frankie, I actually had a BAO ticket, but unfortunately had to cancel my trip up there last minute. I’ll definitely be there for LVO!

          • Heldericht July 18, 2016 9:16 pm

            One more thing. Attending is obviously ideal, but it isnt possible for everyone unfortunately. The best coast pairing app is actually very cool and I use it to follow tournaments at my FLGS when I cant make it. Since I know the players somewhat, and the lists they play, I can get a good sense of how things are going.

            However, the app cant even come close to a live blog style update. Short of streaming, it’s the best way to get people to follow along. The pics combined with commentary about the players, like what Pablo did, is invaluable.

            The 40k scene is doing very well, thanks in large part to you guys. I’m super excited about it! But, in order to have the scene grow even more, we need to reach and involve more people. Centerpiece events like BAO and LVO are pivotal to spreading awareness, as GW doesnt seem to do a lot of advertising to bring in new people (the board games are helping)

            Coming from a gaming background, games are trying to get more people to play them all the time. Especially competitive online games. And the most successful ones, like Blizzard and Riot Games have done this by not only making a solid game (which you guys are doing in part for 40k with the ITC), but also really promoting their tournament scene with professional casters and a solid streaming system. When those things are polished and new people see that as their first exposure to the game, they form their first opinions and that’s what brings them in.

            I’m not saying the live blog is as important as a dedicated stream, but it is important. These things matter, even if they seem anciliary.

            I’m glad you guys are doing the stream for LVO, and you can bet there will be a LOT of new eyes on the event. By all accounts the last stream at LVO was good and this one is looking like it’ll be even better with your team having a lot more experience under their belt.

            Anyway, I digress. I’m just saying it because in the end I care about 40k and the ITC and I want it to grow. You guys have a tough job as defacto stewards of the tournament scene for 40k, and I cant think of a better group of people to have that responsibility.

          • Val Heffelfinger July 19, 2016 9:54 am

            I think ol’ Heldericht came out a little harsh and subsequently politely rephrased the feedback – but allow me to second his emotion…

            I’m a big fan of the FLG content – and also was super interested to know what was going on at the BAO as it was happening…

            You guys more than anyone know what the webtraffic is and how much demand there is for ongoing coverage, but a real live-blog with lists and coverage would be super awesome. I’d bet you could find someone local totally willing to take that on as a dedicated role in the future.

            Assuming people other than myself and O.P are actually interested in this stuff, naturally!

            and yeah, the Best Coast pairings app is great for real time updates, but it still doesn’t really let you know what’s going on aside from results.

            it’s all just fun and exciting… and those of us out here in internet land are keen to find out what’s up!


          • Reecius July 19, 2016 1:48 pm

            Yeah, we appreciate that everyone wants to see what’s going on! We’re working on solutions for more and better coverage. The issue is manpower, honestly.

          • PeteyPab July 19, 2016 5:34 pm

            I just want to put this out there. All I ever wanted to do when I came on board was meet all the best players in the world, and cover large events so other people could see how much fun competitive 40k could be.

            When I first started playing 40k I was frustrated with the lack of coverage, and I must say. Tournament coverage has come a long way since I started 2 years ago.

        • Petey Pab July 18, 2016 7:57 pm #

          Yeah well, Nick is a nice guy. If we had perfect coverage at every tournament what would he write about? My amazing mustache? Thanks for the kudos, and letting me know I still have a lot of room to improve. These are (hopefully) only going to get better.

  18. Orwell July 17, 2016 11:51 pm #

    So what exactly were the top 8 lists then?

  19. Alex r July 18, 2016 12:13 am #

    Bahaha awesome win for the lion and i bet the full overwatch helped

  20. Orwell July 18, 2016 1:02 am #

    Anyone know Carlos Kaiser’s list?

  21. J July 18, 2016 1:02 am #

    I’d love to see the lists for Don’s IH and John Feuerhelm’s DA even if you don’t get to a full review

  22. Donthemagnificent July 18, 2016 3:00 am #

    Thank you again for putting on this great event. I will definitely be back next year!

  23. Karaghul July 18, 2016 3:14 am #

    Would be cool to have a look at the White Scars / Inquisition / Atrapos (Nathaniel Emond’s).

    And the GuardDar + Inq list will be nice to see as well, when you write about the top 8 lists.

    P.S: Those armies at the bottom of the article are absolutely stunning. The Ork one being my favourite. Wow.

  24. Threllen July 18, 2016 5:19 am #

    Great to see a different army top the charts for once! Dark Angels bikes with that Darkshroud can be pretty nasty. Played against one a while back and when he told me he had 2+ re-rollable jink I definitely did a double take. Luckily the player didn’t have nearly the skill Brandon probably does. He got in assault range of my daemons and it was all over for him.

  25. tag8833 July 18, 2016 6:44 am #

    Wow. So every one of the top lists included an OP formation? How deep did we have to go to find an army without one? Probably the 5 flyrant player? Where did he end up? In the 20’s? (I looked, he ended 39th).

    Are we at the point of the 40K meta where armies without OP formations need not apply? Is it time to start fixing the formations a bit to balance them out somewhat?

    • Heldericht July 18, 2016 7:26 am #

      If every list has an “OP” formation, then they arent really OP anymore, are they? They’re cancelling each other out.

      Your point seems moot when the top player didnt even use a real battle company.

      • tag8833 July 18, 2016 7:48 am #

        Every list in the top 8 had an OP formation. There are plenty of codexes that don’t have access to such things. Dark Eldar. Orks. Tyranids. Sisters. Looks like the top player from any of those codexes is Willow Ryder at 26. What do you bet there is an aspect host in that list? Are we happy with a meta that has no room for lesser codexes or significant list diversity?

        According to the post, the top player used the Lion’s Blade Strike force which is an arguably better version of a “Real Battle Company”.

        • fluger July 18, 2016 8:58 am #

          Maybe we should make good formations to bring up weaker dexes? 😉

          • tag8833 July 18, 2016 10:46 am

            Look at my proposal document. I buff the weak formations and nerf the strong ones. I was trying to make a proposal where now all formations are playable, and reasonable.

            It’s just my WIP proposal that I’ve generated after some cursory discussion with buddies, but it sure would be nice to see a top 8 were not every army either had War convocation, Battle Company or Aspect Host.

          • fluger July 19, 2016 9:34 am

            Oh, I saw it last time you posted it on my article about formations. 😀 Its a great place to start.

        • Heldericht July 18, 2016 9:54 am #

          That doesn’t make sense. Nerfing the strong and fun codexes is not the answer. Bringing up the bland and underpowered codexes is what we need.

          You are also looking at formations in a vacuum. The reason the codexes you mentioned are weak is not because they don’t have “OP formations”, it’s because their base units are somewhere between average to terribad, with maybe a couple of standouts. They are either overcosted or badly designed (Hellions…). These fundamental issues will not be resolved even with nerfing the “OP” formations in other codexes.

          You can have a tournament with no formations and all CAD and you’ll still see the majority of those armies in the lower tiers.

          • tag8833 July 18, 2016 11:03 am

            >>> Nerfing the strong and fun codexes is not the answer. Bringing up the bland and underpowered codexes is what we need.

            I prefer to fix it from both sides. I agree somewhat. buff weak formations, nerf strong ones. It is much easier to tweak existing formations than write new ones, or alter basic stats or rules. I think if you spent time working with Ork, or Tyranid, or IG formations, you’d notice that they are unwieldy with less powerful benefits, and taxes. For instance, in the case of Ork Formations, Orks take massive nerfs on mob rule significantly amplifying their leadership woes. The leadership woes are poor design in the core codex, but Ork Formations make them Worse instead of better.

            >> These fundamental issues will not be resolved even with nerfing the “OP” formations in other codexes.
            Fixing formations won’t fix everything, but Formations, and psychic powers are where the biggest problems are in the current meta. Reasonable adjustments to formations to bring them into the same ballpark would definitely make things better, and I think it is important to not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

            >>You can have a tournament with no formations and all CAD and you’ll still see the majority of those armies in the lower tiers.

            There is no doubt that Warp Spiders are unbalanced compared to say Killa Kans or Hellbrutes. However, the Aspect host formation that removes the tax and limit on Warp Spiders while making them better, massively exacerbates that problem, and creates a far less diverse meta. A few small tweaks to formations, and it would allow top tier players to compete more effectively while using Bottom tier codexes, and it would do more to prevent the middle tier players from getting smashed by bad matchups.

            I have played in, been to, and seen lots of events with no formations, and I’ve never seen one of those where Orks, Dark Eldar, Astra Militarum, or Tyranids didn’t have some representation in the top 3.

            Fixing one thing does not fix everything, but it does fix that one thing, and that is worth it for the health of the community.

          • Heldericht July 18, 2016 4:47 pm

            You are right that some formations are problematic and psychic powers definitely need some sort of cap on warp dice or something.

            But changing formations is not the correct answer here. You are fundamentally breaking the game and inserting arbitrary restrictions. On top of that, the community as a whole will never be happy with changes to their army from the base rulebook on such a wide scale. Small tweaks here and there are tolerated because most of the time, they are really just clarifications to maintain the spirit of the rules and avoiding rules lawyering.

            For example, ITC had already ruled Warp Spiders should just get 1 flickerjump instead of infinite (and GW confirmed that it is the right call when they answered their own FAQ).

            Speaking of Warp Spiders, there were spam lists at the BAO. Peter Kelley brought 45 Warp Spiders. He finished 19th. Sure, some lists had the Aspect Host. But that didn’t make them auto win. It won at LVO because it was an unknown list in NA and took people by surprise. But now people have learned to deal with it. It’s tough to crack, but quite doable.

            It’s admirable that you’ve put in so much work and passion into designing changes for the game to try and address some of the issues. But realistically, this will never be accepted by the community at large. It is not a feasible solution.

            It’s better to look into things like community comp, that lets you bring the “OP” formations as is, but associate an appropriate cost with them. This will not only address the formation issue, but the spam issue as well.

          • tag8833 July 18, 2016 7:50 pm

            I don’t care nearly so much about the details of the solution so long as there is one. I love Community Comp it works so much better than I ever would have thought before I started playing it.

            My loosely conceived proposal to fix formations is one possible fix. You are 100% right that it is hard to get the community to agree on changes. It would be nearly impossible if you took it formation by formation, but if you did them all at once I think you could get majorities supporting changes, but it is clearly a suboptimal solution.

            My favorite solution is to break the ITC into 2 Tracks with one being very unrestrictive like what we play now, and one being more restrictive for players who aren’t fans of over the top formations, and non-interactive combos, Super heavies and deathstars. It would also drastically lower the barrier for entry for competitive play and diversify the meta.

            No matter the solution. Something needs to be done, and sooner rather than later. Things have gotten out of hand, and the longer we ignore the problem the worse it gets, and the more damage done to the 40K player base.

            I am a top tier tourney player and Organizer, and I am sick of it, and I’ve got to believe I’m not the only one.

          • Petey Pab July 18, 2016 8:12 pm

            Sorry Tag, I understand the meta isn’t perfect but no meta will ever satisfy every single player, no matter the game.

            I agree things have gotten out of hand! We had more players at this BAO (172) than last year (134) and next year’s LVO is easily shaping up to be the largest 40k tournament ever. Breaking a record set by this year’s BAO. Now I am not saying our format is perfect or the end all be all. The guys at NOVA and Adepticon have a different way they run things and their events are amazing as well and growing as well! (are they using your system?)

            I have no problem with you pointing out flaws in the game, and proposing your platform to fix them here, or anywhere. This is a democracy and you have every right to show people a different way, and if enough people approve and it gets voted in then hey, you should give yourself a big pat on the back for creating what people obviously agree, is a better meta.

            What I do have a problem with is the picture you’re painting of 40k being a dying game and unfixable game. You are a TO man, people come to your events and play 40k the way you think it should be played (to an extent). You of all people should know not to drive away attendance or shed our hobby in a negative light. New players need to see large events where people are having a blast despite not winning.

            Guess what? There was limited salt at this year’s BAO. I was on the front lines, snapping pictures, meeting new people, and generally feeling out the vibe. In general people LOVED it.

            Please man, advertise and share your opinion about what you think is right for the game. But don’t portray it as some unfixable mess, especially when tournament attendance and GW sales prove the opposite.

          • tag8833 July 19, 2016 5:32 am

            Not unfixable. Easily fixable. Lots of potential fixes, none of them all that hard. But I am standing by the idea that it needs fixing.

            40K isn’t a dying game. It is growing in my area. More players all the time. The ITC is growing as well, and I’m thrilled about that.

            I’m not really sure how I communicated that I felt differently about any of those things. I am a 40K and ITC cheerleader, and I work hard to grow both.

            My objection is to the increasing barrier for entry making it harder to recruit people into competitive 40K, and the Meta that is increasingly less diverse, and more insurmountable for original, diverse armies, or less powerful codexes.

            Your point of view is that the problem, while it exists, isn’t that important or worth fixing. It is important to me, and I’ve got to imagine it is important to others, and the rule on the ITC is that if you want fixes voted on you’ve got to be a squaky wheel, so here I am trying to get some discussion and votes.

            If we vote, I might lose. It might be that the things I value about organized play or attending events aren’t things valued by a majority of those in the ITC, in which case I’ll go my own way and do my own thing, and that is fine. But I’m not inclined to cut ties yet, at least not when fixes are so easy and so available.

          • tag8833 July 19, 2016 5:42 am

            I feel like 95% of people agree that we have a problem. If we all agree that a problem exists, why can’t we work to solve it?

          • westrider July 19, 2016 2:39 pm

            The problem is that, altho nearly everyone agrees that there is a problem, it’s incredibly difficult to get a majority (or even a substantial plurality) to agree on what, specifically, the problems are, and even harder to get agreement on what would be workable solutions.

            I’m down for whatever, I’m just saying, I’ve seen basically this same mess play out before.

        • Smuffle July 19, 2016 1:22 pm #

          Willow here! Yes I had an aspect host, 2×5 dark reapers and 9 fire dragons. No spiders in my list. I wish I didn’t need it but it’s dooooo good. I may stop running it so I can run a CAD to nab a farseer for shriek, it would have helped a lot.

          • tag8833 July 20, 2016 9:23 am

            That’s a good way to cover for you codex’s lack of anti-tank.

            What did you need Shriek for the most? Riptide wings, Stormsurges, or Wraithknights?

          • Smuffle August 1, 2016 12:13 pm

            Shrieks would have been very helpful against space marines and Gargs. Also that pesky Nurgle D Prince that wouldn’t fail cover saves

      • 8Julnlecs July 18, 2016 2:24 pm #

        #9 Blood Angels used a BA CAD with a WS SM CAD. No Formations there.

        • tag8833 July 19, 2016 5:35 am #

          Awesome. No formations at all? I expected it to be a flesh tearer’s taxi service for the Wulfen formation or some variation of Librarious Conclave.

          I’m excited to see the details of the list. I’ve got like 3-4 hugely demoralized Blood Angel players that might feel a little less demoralized if they knew it was possible. Was it a double Centstar?

    • Threllen July 18, 2016 11:11 am #

      And what about the fact that the top list isn’t even on your list of proposed nerfs/buffs? Or the 8th place list. And probably not the Guard list either. Must not actually be OP if you didn’t decide to abritrarily nerf them in your list. Or is your criteria for “OP” just “hey look it won something, must be OP.” Are you just proposing every time a list wins a GT we should nerf it? And then when different lists we nerf those instead?

      Also, the “balance” in your proposal is pretty shoddy.

      “Make it so War Convocation doesn’t get free wargear.” –> Umm what? That’s literally the onyl thing that makes the formation good. Mechanicus and Skitarii are pretty underpowered/underwhelming armies. Literally the only reason they are good is because this formation gives them tons of free points to make up for the fact the underlying units are pretty terrible. Take away their free stuff and they’ll be worse off than the codices you think are bad.

      “Make it so Battle Company doesn’t get free transports.” –> Again the exact same thing. Tactical squads really aren’t that good (especially if grav ever gets re-balanced). If I have to take a list that is just a million tactical squads AND I have to pay for their transports than it’s going to be a terrible list. Doctrines do not make up for the lack of power tac squads bring unlike you seem to think.

      “No Warp Spiders” –> Your reasoning behind this is literally just “I don’t think people should take 30 warp spiders so I say the formation doesn’t get any.”

      • tag8833 July 18, 2016 2:44 pm #

        I wrote the list prior to Angels of Death. I haven’t had enough table time with Angels of Death to create proposals for all of their proposals. That being said, the Lions Blade is just a Gladius with slightly different special rules I would propose the same fix for it.

        The guard list had Aspect Host warp spiders.

        War Convocation has lots more going for it than free wargear. The Mechanicus Canticles are what makes it so good. The Free wargear is just excessive. Give it a game sometime. You’ll see why it works so well.

        Gladius is good because of Objective Secured. Free Transports are not necessary for a top played to compete with it, especially if other super powered formations are restricted a bit. They can pay for transports and still win. If they have to pay for transports, we might see some diversity coming out of space marine lists again.

        Warp Spiders are broken, especially in ITC missions with the objective placement rules. Aspect host creates a way to spam those broken units with no tax whatsoever, and a bonus thrown in. The goal of fixing formations is to promote list diversity. As long as aspect host allows warp spiders, we won’t see much list diversity coming out of Eldar armies. If it is still allowed, we might see some other Eldar aspect warriors make appearances from time to time which would do a better job representing the fluff of that formation.

        I get the impression that the only thing that could convince you that certain formations could be tweaked for the better is seeing them in action a bit more. Nothing works like table time to help you understand how different lists function. That includes the underpowered formations like the Incubator Node that desperately need buffs to be usable, or the

        It may be the case that you and I have a completely different view of 40K. I think it should be diverse, fun, and open to all players and armies. I think player skill should trump codex choice and formations should do a better job matching fluff.

        I also think you should play the way you want to play. I’m comfortable saying that a big time event where we have to go 30+ players deep before we find a list without one of a handful of formations is not the way I want to play. A few tweaks to round off the sharp edges would make a much more attractive game for me, and probably lots of others.

        • Petey Pab July 18, 2016 7:35 pm #

          “The guard list had Aspect Host warp spiders.”

          Wrong. He had an IG CAD, an inquisitotorial detachment, and an Eldar CAD. Not a single warp spider in sight.

          I’ve got around 30 lists collected from the BAO and plan on answering all your list questions. However right now I just got home from a 9 hour drive (LA traffic is bitch) so it may not get posted today. I will do the best I can, as fast as I can, to finish the coverage.

          • tag8833 July 19, 2016 4:55 am

            Awesome. That is an interesting list. I’ll be super exited to see the details of it.

    • Alex R July 18, 2016 4:18 pm #

      check out community if you want to fix this shit look at that its already done without changing anything

      • Heldericht July 18, 2016 4:35 pm #

        Community comp seems like a much better idea than changing the actual formations. I really hope ITC at least explores the option.

    • Alex R July 18, 2016 4:22 pm #

      check out community please we use it down in australia and its saving our community

    • Drachnyen July 18, 2016 6:00 pm #

      Tag, I love your idea!

      Unfortunately, as I wrote many, many time before, the current warhammer 40k meta is controlled by space marines players then Eldar players.

      As long as ITC is based on community “voting”, you will never, ever get some modifications/tweaks applied on the ruling factions to tone them down. And by the same token, probably not get any buffs on the “lower” factions as well.

      Humans are humans and especially in the competitive scene, as most players try to gain advantage from every rule/formation/battle brother possible, you can bet your money on the community voting in favor of Status Quo or nerfs to other codexes (like tau for example)

      And for those saying, “hey, but the community voted against super duper powers of space marines…” They in fact voted to keep the meta intact and keep the status quo…

      Anyhow.. Nice try Tag. I totally support your idea to help balance things.

      • Threllen July 19, 2016 5:15 am #

        Umm Drachnyen do you actually read the ITC FAQ votes ever? Notice how the last one voted in quite a few nerfs to the Space Marine faction?

        • Drachnyen July 19, 2016 5:47 am #

          Lets examine the results, you will see the “community” voting for status Quo, not for the good of the game.

          1. The Nerf to gravs vs Walkers was rejected. Status Quo vote

          2. Death from the Skies was rejected (even though NO top lists ever uses flyers) This vote was to shutdown flyer threats, look at all the lists, you will see that no one needs to bring AA to the table anymore. Status Quo vote

          3. Phase form and Shifting worldscape got nerfed because they were too powerfull. I could see this unique example as a nerf to space marines that even space marines players agree. I would also classify this as a Status Quo vote.

          4. Corsairs Jet bikes got nerfed (Nerf the Xenos vote)

          5. Corsairs Warp tunnel got nerfed (Nerf the Xenos vote)

          6. Daemonic corruption, was more of a rule clarification than a nerf

          7. Draft FAQs were voted out. Of COURSE! This affects how the game is played, status Quo again.

          The exact same results can be derived from the previous Survey as well. Either Status Quo vote or Nerf the Xenos vote.

          • tag8833 July 19, 2016 10:20 am

            I actually think that the Walker ruling would have gone the other way if it had been a direct nerf to Grav instead of being a backdoor approach to it.

            “When shooting at vehicles should grav cause a hull point and a Stunned result instead of an immobilized result?”

            Would have gotten more support probably than the vote as offered. There is a flawed philosophy that direct nerfs are less OK than oblique nerfs that tweak game mechanics and sometimes end up with unintended consequences. As soon as we get past that philosophical objection we will be back on the right track with the votes.

    • Phanex July 19, 2016 11:38 am #

      The Dark Angels didn’t have an OP formation at least by your own definition in your spreadsheet.

      You also left Dark Angels off your spreadsheet as well as Blood Angels.

  26. Skallagoose July 18, 2016 7:12 am #

    Hey, i know youre going to post the top 8 lists, but I’m interested in Mason Vasquez’s ThunderStar list. If you could write that one up too, to post where i can find it that would be great!

  27. Dogberry1982 July 18, 2016 10:20 am #

    Who brought that Manta!!! Was that his display board? 🙂

    • Heldericht July 18, 2016 4:34 pm #

      I don’t know for sure, but it looks like Israel Sanchez’s army, I believe he brought it to the LVO earlier in the year as well and won one of the prizes for best painted. The Manta is a new addition though. It’s probably just to add oomph to his display.

      • KaptinDregzag July 18, 2016 5:58 pm #

        He actually ran the Manta at Clash of Titans in Redding, CA, in early June.

        • Heldericht July 18, 2016 8:50 pm #

          I meant it’s a display enhancer in this particular case at the BAO, but it’s good to know he’s getting to use it in games too. Beautiful model.

  28. Zombiescottie July 18, 2016 10:26 am #

    I’m so excited right now! I have a list for my league very similar to the Brandon’s list but at 1650. I hope shaving off 200 points doesn’t hurt it too much. A techmarine on a bike. Awesome, never thought of that.

  29. ArchonKalafex July 18, 2016 12:42 pm #

    So whats the logic of people below you in event rankings getting more ITC points? Danny Kwan got fewer points at 10th place than 13 people below him in rankings. And similarly some people outside the top 10 scored higher than people in it.

  30. Val Heffelfinger July 18, 2016 1:05 pm #

    Hey Pablo!
    I’d love to see details of any of the top 25 Tau Lists… I think there might have been 3?

    Cheers man!

    • Petey Pab July 18, 2016 8:15 pm #

      Val! Of course man! I will be posting lists up soon, however a common theme amongst top tau lists this year was no stormsurges, 3 Y’Varhnas.

      • Dirtydeeds July 19, 2016 5:28 am #

        Y’Vahras are nasty.

      • Val Heffelfinger July 19, 2016 9:15 am #

        No Stormsurges??? But Frankie promised I couldn’t lose!

        … Y’Vahra’s are in the mail tho, luckily …

        Looking forward to the new Imperial Armour books too : )

        But yeah, seeing those lists will be great.


        • Dirtydeeds July 19, 2016 11:30 am #

          I’m hesitant to get more Y’Vahras because we don’t know what they’ll end up with in the Imperial Armour.

          • Val Heffelfinger July 19, 2016 4:33 pm

            I’m optimistic that if anything they’ll get better by being included in existing detachments… like saaaaay… a riptide wing?

            /greedily rubs hands together.

    • Adam K July 19, 2016 6:38 am #

      Hey I was 22nd and didn’t have any Y’vahras! Nice meeting u Pablo had a lot of fun!

      • Petey Pab July 19, 2016 12:09 pm #

        Too true Adam! You also didn’t have any storumsurges lol. Also, I think I may have seen an Eldar or two in your list. It was nice meeting you too man. It was also great to see your girlfriend stick with you for most of the tournament. My wife wouldn’t touch those places with a 10 foot pole.

  31. Evan Valdyke July 18, 2016 3:48 pm #

    When are the paint scores going to be posted. And where would I find them?

    Also, any Blood Angel in the top 25 would be nice to see their list.

    • Reecius July 20, 2016 11:10 am #

      The ITC Scores updates every Friday.

  32. Lord Krungharr July 18, 2016 5:29 pm #

    That lions blade force is a royal pain with all that objective secured AnD they fire overwatch at full BS. I think a greater brass scorpion and tons of flesh hounds and dirge casters are what’s required for that 💥

    Awesome to see so many different armies in the top tier!

    • Kevin Lantz July 18, 2016 8:12 pm #

      yeah and to think people get upset at tau for supporting fire =D

  33. Nogle July 18, 2016 5:40 pm #

    I want to see the list that is assassins as main list. That must be pieces of a lot of different things, plus, must have used all four assassins for that too be the biggest bunch of points in the army

    • Duh_Ruckus July 19, 2016 9:44 am #

      It’s two execution strike forces

  34. Lex July 18, 2016 7:24 pm #

    Question about the winning list. Looking at it, Ravenwing Strike Force is not an auxiliary choice in the Lions Blade Strike Force. Possibly an incorrect post of what was in his list?

    • Petey Pab July 18, 2016 7:32 pm #

      The scouts were his auxiliary choice.

      • Lex July 19, 2016 3:18 am #

        Didn’t see them on the list when I looked at. Sneaky bastards infiltrated in there.

  35. BestCoastCasey July 18, 2016 10:05 pm #

    That’s a nice banner image someone made. I like it 😉

  36. Alex r July 18, 2016 11:10 pm #

    Overwatch at full bs is stronger that it seems

    • vercingatorix July 19, 2016 12:08 am #

      And it seems pretty strong!

  37. Riot Earp July 19, 2016 12:25 am #

    Any infos about the blood angels list #10 and #12?
    Would like to see those list.
    Also if someone really brought an battle company.
    How did you field them? Got one play with an BC and it went good. (okay against Chaos Space Marines..)

  38. Gman July 19, 2016 3:32 am #

    Can someone post a lini to the guard/eldar/inq player please?

  39. wintertalon July 19, 2016 9:51 am #

    Do you have the list for the top Space Wolf list? I love to see the formation one of the Number 23 I believe

    • Duh_Ruckus July 19, 2016 10:51 am #

      Number 23 list was
      company of the great wolf
      Rune priest
      2 wulfen squads
      3 drop poss
      2 quad mortars

      Eldar cad
      2 scatt packs
      Wraith knight with sword and board

      Trip tide

      I played it round 5 and lost

      • Chancy July 20, 2016 9:34 pm #

        Do you work do you remember what was on the wulfen units?

  40. Jesper77 July 19, 2016 12:09 pm #

    Damn those cheese Eldar filling all the top tiers!!! Why can’t any body play the more balanced SM! *three tons of salt*

    How about getting some SM nerfs? Best and only universal weapon in the game- grav, best psychics, best free stuff best formations. Rather face an Eldar force then an op SM shinanegan force :/

    From this day forward and for ever after (!) the ultimate cheese crown goes to….SM!!!

  41. Nightman July 19, 2016 2:45 pm #

    Great job on the coverage Pablo! Looking forward to see what the Blood Angels brought to the table. Two in top 12 has to be an upset. Very impressive.

  42. Kevin Lantz July 19, 2016 8:00 pm #

    Considering how the top armies always are, I’d like to see more formations allowed, I don’t think it’d do anything but help shake up the top armies, and also give more room for the under performing armies (that don’t have formations 2-3 that eat 1500-2500pts if they want them to)

  43. Sirplastic July 20, 2016 12:30 am #

    I´m also interested in the blood angel lists.
    And did julio really brought an BA Battle Company ^^#?

    • Julnlecs July 26, 2016 12:24 am #

      I brought Eldar. Lost the mirror match Round 5 going 1st. Idk where the Blood Angels Battle Company rumors came from.

  44. Will Grant July 20, 2016 6:12 am #

    Carmona’s list Cabal?

    Include the CSM Cad (Cypher) or Demon Cad (Grim)?

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