Broadside Bash 2016 Results: CSM Go Undefeated!

    1. BSB logo

Hey guys! PeteyPab here with another tournament blog. The Broadside Bash was 2000 points, ITC missions, 5 rounds, and wasn’t allowing any of the new space marine stuff. James Carmona won with Chaos Space Marines Primary. His list is below in red

 The players

frankie and reece

Reece “The Beast”

Our fearless leader is bringing the pain with another new interesting list. He is bringing Militarum Tempustus with Taurox Primes, lots of troops, and some imperial goodies. He is always a contender at every tournament he brings and his understanding of the meta means his lists are always something to keep an eye on.

Militarum Tempestus CAD

Command squad: p.gun x 4

Taurox Prime with missiles.

Scions Squads x 6, 4 with double melta, 1 with flamers, 1 with plasma, all 5 man units.

6 Taurox Primes with missiles.

Knight Crusader with missiles

Culexus Assassin

Reece played 2 Space marine battle companies and one very mean Baneblade on his way to a 1-1-1 record at the end of day 1. He obviously doesn’t have a chance to win it all but if he can finish day two with two wins a 3-1-1 record is very impressive considering he was just a few bad dice rolls away from 0-3.

Day 2 Reece found himself up against some Eldar and found himself at a solid 3-1-1 record after all. He finished twelth overall and I think he did very well considering he was running a list he didn’t have a lot of practice with.

Most interesting man in 40k

“The Worlds Greatest”

Frankie is bringing his unstoppable Tau list with an added drone network for some D missile flinging. He is my favorite to win best overall, with a beautiful army and a lot of games under his belt. Eldar beware!

Frankie continues his dominance with a strong 3-0 performance.He had a mix of opponents including an Inquisition primary army, and day two has some very strong contenders to compete with. Next round Geoff “Incontrol” can Frankie pull off a win against Geoff, who looks like he is about to go on a hot streak with his War Convocation?

Frankie beat Geoff in a nail biter to go on to challenge our own James Carmona in the finals. He ended up losing in another hotly contested game versus James and his Chaos Sorceror star. Frankie finished 4-1 and just barely missed out on the top 8 by four points. Clearly his Tau list isn’t unbeatable and it showed against a list that could pack a punch in the psychic phase and the assault phase.


Geoff 'InControl" Roninson

Geoff “Incontrol”

Geoff is looking for a redemption after a tough outing at Adepticon. He decided to ditch the Tyranids and go back to his bread and butter War Convocation list. Despite not making the top 8 at the LVO he still finished strong with the list and now has an extra 150 points to mess around with his list.

Geoff beat Ben Mohlie,widely regarded as one of the best players in North America. In addition to beating a three knight army and Eldar (I think?) Geoffhas a good chance to win the event, if he can get two wins out of a very nasty looking top 8.

Geoff may have lost to Frankie but he still finished strong with a good top tables victory versus an Eldar list and actually beat out Frankie in points with a 7th place 4-1 finish. All in all Incontrol is poised to have a really strong 2016 campaign and should be someone we should all keep an eye on. People still don’t know how to play against War Convocation (Just ask Matt Root from Adepticon) and judging from talks with Incontrol about his list, he knows his army pretty well.

Raw Dogger: Readers be ware!

Jason “Rawdogger”

Jason is back with his mistress, Belligerence, and his favorite army Astra Militarum. Though he won’t see a lot of D slanging he will see a lot of other top tier lists that an entirely new meta brings.

Rawdogger had a strong showing against some tough opponents day one and ended the day with a solid 2-1 record. After losing spectacularly to our very own James Carmona and his Daemon Sorcerer star list he might have lost some momentum. Jason knows his list very well and right now I think the stormlord has a good spot in the meta. If he gets paired up he could break some hearts.

Jason ended finishing the day with a 2-3 record and had a blast doing it. I love how much fun Jason has at events and also how he still manages to pull out wins against competitive lists despite dancing to the beat of his own drum. If I could I would play him every game at a tournament, and that’s not because he isn’t the luckiest player around (I am 0-2 against Belligerence)

pablo

Pablo “Petey Pab”

I am pretty sure no amount of Warp Spiders and free obsec units will give me a dominant record in a tournament with such a hardcore turnout, but I will try. My army is actually really hard to play and this entire weekend is going to be more of a learning experience for me rather then a competitive showing.

I played a daemon list with 9 (!) units of screamers, a mini-screamer star, and a whole bunch of psychic support, the same nasty Baneblade Reece ran into, and Ben Mohlie’s assault crons on my way to a 2-1 record. I am happy with my list’s performance, there isn’t a lot of line of sight blocking terrain at the event, so I think it has the potential to perform even better, and losing to one of the best players in the world while beating a strong Daemon list, and a soft counter (8 lone meltas isn’t enough against 4 lemon russes and a baneblade) is promising. I hope I can finish day 2 with a 4-1 record but only time will tell.

I narrowly beat out a heinous Tau list and another nasty guard list to finish the day at 4-1. I did make 8th place and beat Frankie by four points (suck it Francis!) so I feel like I accomplished a lot with a my list’s GT debut appearance. I do think all of my opponents were difficult but I wish I had played some Eldar or a Battle Company list because those armies are the standard right now that you need to beat. Especially in the ITC.

You can follow the action from home at bestcoastpairings.com/event/bsb2016

Top 8 Results!

1
138.55 ITC Points
  James Carmona
Chaos Space Marines – Team Zero Comp
5089
20 / 15 / 20 / 14 / 20
2
124.09 ITC Points
  Julio Rodriguez
Eldar – nWo Blackshirts
4590
20 / 11 / 19 / 20 / 20
3
118.07 ITC Points
  Thomas Hegstrom Oakey
Space Marines – Double Dutch Rudder
4581
20 / 11 / 17 / 17 / 16
4
107.23 ITC Points
  Joshua Death
Chaos Daemons – Team Zero Comp
4090
20 / 19 / 19 / 13 / 19
5
93.97 ITC Points
  Alan Dehesa
Chaos Space Marines – Rage Quit Table Flip
4086
20 / 6 / 20 / 20 / 20
6
91.56 ITC Points
  Ben Mohlie
Necrons –
4082
19 / 17 / 11 / 16 / 19
7
89.16 ITC Points
  Geoff Robinson
Cult Mechanicus – Team Zero Comp
4081
20 / 17 / 15 / 9 / 20
8
75.9 ITC Points
  Pablo Martinez
Space Marines –
4080
19 / 7 / 20 / 14 / 20

james

James Carmona’s Super Star with Cheese List.

Daemons Primary.
Black Legion CSM
Psyclopian Cabal
5 Sorcerers Lv3, Bike, Spell Familiar.

KDK
Herald on Jugger Khorne
Cultists
12 Flesh Hounds

Chaos Daemons
Prince of Nurgle Lv3. EG GG and the nurgle relic
Fateweaver
Nurglings
12 Pink Horrors

Update: After the event an intrepid internet goer realized James’ list was illegal. The Nurgle Prince is not allowed both a grimoire and a nurgle relic. Now although I don’t condone running illegal lists, and everyone should triple-check their lists before events, James did make an honest mistake and is beating himself up for such a silly mental error. He did the responsible thing and emailed the TO to see how he would rule, and will accept whichever decision the TO comes up with. I would like to add, that even without the Grimoire James has a nasty, unique list that runs 24 warp dice to swiss army knife his opponent’s and is also Chaos Space Marines primary. Whether you believe he deserves his tournament victory or not, I think he has proven that the Cabal formation is really strong, and gives a much needed boost to a faction that has been picking up the scraps of it’s three other powerhouse battle brother factions.

What do you guys think aboout the situation? Also, I am interested to hear about the Chaos Space Marine lists you are brewing up. Is it time to break out those dusty old Chaos Terminators?

As always thanks for following and visit the tactics corner for more great tournament strategy!

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About Petey Pab

Aspiring 40k analyst, tournament reporter and Ultramarines enthusiast, Petey Pab only seeks to gather more knowledge about the game of 40k and share it with as many people as he can in order to unite both hobbyists and gamers. We are, after all, two sides of the same coin.

64 Responses to “Broadside Bash 2016 Results: CSM Go Undefeated!”

  1. Duh_Ruckus April 29, 2016 10:01 pm
    #

    Any chance of posting the lists?

    • Joshua April 30, 2016 2:03 am
      #

      Probably not since Reece will just change his the night before anyway 😛

      • Reecius
        Reecius May 2, 2016 1:34 pm
        #

        I actually did not change my list last minute this time, haha.

  2. abusepuppy April 30, 2016 5:25 am
    #

    UnReecest the Beast!

    • Dakkath May 2, 2016 6:30 am
      #

      UnReece the Beece

      • Reecius
        Reecius May 2, 2016 1:34 pm
        #

        Hey, don’t know when I got the nickname “The Beast” haha, but it’s better than Grey Bush!

  3. Duh_Ruckus April 30, 2016 1:27 pm
    #

    Reece back at again with the kinky list that is probably amazing but I don’t understand why

    • Reecius
      Reecius May 2, 2016 1:35 pm
      #

      It’s a simple list but quite good. I had fun with it!

  4. Orwell April 30, 2016 2:34 pm
    #

    Haha Reece sick list

  5. Kevin Lantz May 1, 2016 9:59 am
    #

    hope his tau go against a super friends list or a gladius strike force… tau just can’t do shit to it.

    • Kevin Lantz May 1, 2016 9:59 am
      #

      specially with that free insta death guy thrown in a rhino with them.

      • bigpig May 2, 2016 12:52 pm
        #

        nah, they banned that instant death guy

        • Reecius
          Reecius May 2, 2016 1:36 pm
          #

          Yeah, the Imperial Space Marine is stupid, lol

    • Reecius
      Reecius May 2, 2016 1:36 pm
      #

      Tau can handle super friends and in our experience they rock Battle Company, especially if they go first. Tau are incredibly powerful.

  6. jpwyrm May 1, 2016 10:34 am
    #

    Hell yeah Reece! Full on special ops list, I love it! You should showcase it sometimes on Thursday Night Fight.

    Good luck on day two guys!

    • Reecius
      Reecius May 2, 2016 1:38 pm
      #

      I definitely will! It was a lot of fun to play.

  7. Orwell May 2, 2016 12:29 am
    #

    Lists pls?

    • Reecius
      Reecius May 2, 2016 1:41 pm
      #

      Some of the guys can post their lists after they get done traveling, I am sure.

  8. LordWynn May 2, 2016 3:52 am
    #

    Any chance to see those CSM lists?

    • Reecius
      Reecius May 2, 2016 1:42 pm
      #

      We don’t have them on hand, we weren’t collecting other players lists. Frankie might have a copy of James’ list as they played against one another.

  9. Drachnyen May 2, 2016 6:03 am
    #

    Chaos space Marines finishes first? Woah.

    Any chances we can get the list?

    • Reecius
      Reecius May 2, 2016 1:41 pm
      #

      We didn’t collect lists, we were playing in the event not running it this time.

  10. W May 2, 2016 9:34 am
    #

    Would also like seeing the lists, especially the winning list. How did he run the Sorcerers?

    • Duh_Ruckus May 2, 2016 10:40 am
      #

      My guess is he probably did kdk with the new black Legion Libby conclave

      • Reecius
        Reecius May 2, 2016 1:40 pm
        #

        Sorcerer Cabal with Dogs and Fatey.

  11. Biffomatic May 2, 2016 12:13 pm
    #

    Heard the winning list was illegal.. smh hope not cuz that’s another one for tzc

    • Reecius
      Reecius May 2, 2016 1:39 pm
      #

      Another what for Team Zero Comp? Illegal list? What do you mean by that, the only other incident was Geoff accidentally having 1 extra model in a unit of Rangers in his army that wasn’t on his list at BAO, which was a simple and honest mistake anyone could make.

      • iNcontroL May 2, 2016 4:05 pm
        #

        actually it was the correct number of models I just didn’t factor in the 10 point alpha cost for the vanguard alpha. It put me over by 9 points. I had a unit of 6.. had I dropped 1 or knew about the alpha cost I would have been fine.

        • Reecius
          Reecius May 2, 2016 6:11 pm
          #

          Ah, sorry about that.

      • Biffomatic May 2, 2016 5:02 pm
        #

        Yah bro.. I agree it’s always a simple mistake.. just don’t want you guys getting the aelong treatment.. didn’t mean it any other way.. that’s why I said hope not

        • Reecius
          Reecius May 2, 2016 6:11 pm
          #

          Fair enough, and yeah, we don’t want that stigma on our team, either. We’ll probably check one another’s lists before an event going forward just to avoid something like this. Or, just post them up online a day or two early to see if anyone in the community catches a mistake.

        • Joshua Death May 2, 2016 10:32 pm
          #

          If you don’t mind me asking, what do you mean when you say “the Aelong treatment”? I only ask as I am aware of the confusion at Adepticon but I was unaware of any blowback on Aaron as a result of it.

          • Biffomatic May 3, 2016 8:32 am
            #

            Just a bunch of haters on the net blowing up the situation.

  12. Masos May 2, 2016 3:09 pm
    #

    Super Star with Cheese List.

    Daemons Primary.
    Black Legion CSM
    Psyclopian Cabal
    5 Sorcerers Lv3, Bike, Spell Familiar.

    KDK
    Herald on Jugger Khorne
    Cultists
    12 Flesh Hounds

    Chaos Daemons
    Prince of Nurgle Lv3. EG GG and the nurgle relic
    Fateweaver
    Nurglings
    12 Pink Horrors

    Heres james list.

    James and a couple of people have been talking about how he was playing the nurgle daemon prince with the grimore which is illegal.

    BUT THAT being said.. This list without the grimore is STILL a 24 dice summoning army with a bunch of cool stuff. I love this list without the grimore. There is a bunch of armies that will not be able to stop it. Great original GT winning list.

    Im just sad to see people toss this amazing list aside just because James made a simple mistake.

    Trust me here James is not the only GT winner to take first in hot debate. I think there has been 5 or 6 GT winners list year that have had illegal lists or misuse of relics, ect.

    • Reecius
      Reecius May 2, 2016 3:13 pm
      #

      Yeah, while we always strive to avoid making list mistakes, the game is so flipping complicated these days that it is very, very easy to make a list writing mistake. It happens all the time.

      • westrider May 2, 2016 4:50 pm
        #

        Seriously. I had to dig for a while to figure out what was wrong with that list, and I generally consider myself to be fairly well up on 40K Rules.

        • Reecius
          Reecius May 2, 2016 6:12 pm
          #

          Yeah, precisely. I do this professionally and I missed it, too, lol.

        • Joshua Death May 2, 2016 8:30 pm
          #

          Honestly he could have very easily just put the Grimoire on the Herald on the Juggernaut and the only real “loss” to his list would have been that the Herald specifically would not have benefited from it. It would effectually changed nothing in how his list performed and as I played against it round 4 I honestly don’t think it would have made a damn bit of difference. He has a truly deceptively solid list and he deserved that win hands down.

          • jy2
            jy2 May 2, 2016 8:52 pm
            #

            No he couldn’t. Herald was from Daemonkin. They cannot take Rewards.

          • Joshua Death May 2, 2016 10:30 pm
            #

            Oh crap Jim. You’re right. I stand corrected. I didn’t think about that. Good catch brother.

      • Happy-inquisitor May 3, 2016 3:46 am
        #

        For any tournament you have weeks to get the list right and double-check the rules you are designing it to rely on. There is no excuse for choosing to take an illegal list or planning to make illegal use of rules. If it is over complicated then that is only because the player chose to make it so, they have nobody to blame but themselves. Mistakes made in the heat of play are one thing, mistakes made when you had plenty of time to avoid them are quite another.

        Why even announce that illegal lists will auto-lose and then award 1st prize to an illegal list? It almost feels like parts of the competitive community want to be a laughing stock.

        • abusepuppy May 3, 2016 5:07 am
          #

          Time to avoid mistakes is only meaningful if you are aware of the rule in question that makes a list illegal- and this game has a LOT of rules. If none of the people you have played happen to know your codex better than you do, it’s very easy to play with an illegal list completely without intention.

          How the TOs handle such situations is another matter entirely; on the one hand, disqualifying a player for a minor math error is completely absurd. On the other hand, simply turning a blind eye to the matter every time is hardly an option, either; I think Adepticon handled the matter rather well when it came up for them.

          I don’t think anyone knew the list was illegal at the time it was awarded the prize, hence why they didn’t do anything about it. I wasn’t there, though, so I can’t say with certainty.

          • ryan May 3, 2016 7:18 am
            #

            i disagree completly on your conclusion that kicking out people with an illegal list is absurd. What IS absurd is travelling possibly a large distance and playing against somebody who cant even follow basic instructions when it comes to list building. If its to complicated to get your list right, take another faction.

            With 2 illegal lists winning large tournies now in the last month, the fact is mid tier players like me(guy who wont win the tourney but help round out the field), WILL start thinking twice about travelling and spending all the money an out of town tourney entails, to end up playing when it boils down to it, a cheater. (accidently or not)

          • Happy_Inquisitor May 3, 2016 12:52 pm
            #

            So instead of the prize going to the best player it goes to one who is not even competent enough to check their own rules and run a legal army?

            Disqualifying a player for using a super-powerful rule that they are not entitled to have does not seem absurd to me at all. That the list was (as common for Daemon lists) built around that power means that the player had all the time they needed to check the rules and see that their list idea did not work.

            As I said before, if as a player your list is too complicated for you to understand then that is a problem entirely of your own making and auto-losing games as a result would an entirely fair outcome. Winning games using rules you simply cannot have – and let us remember that the Grimoire is one of the single strongest rules in the game – is what seems absurd to me.

            I think the rest of the players would be entitled to think that this is pretty much a bad joke. Let us see what the TO does about it.

  13. blackmage May 2, 2016 3:19 pm
    #

    hope someone let me see the demon list

    • Reecius
      Reecius May 2, 2016 6:12 pm
      #

      Scroll up for the winning list.

  14. Luke May 2, 2016 4:35 pm
    #

    Two CSM lists in the top 8? Would wholeheartedly second the request for lists. Morbid curiosity, really

    • Reecius
      Reecius May 2, 2016 6:13 pm
      #

      Haha, not really CSM, all of them were the Sorcerer Cabal.

    • Joshua Death May 2, 2016 8:34 pm
      #

      I was the other Chaos list I was running:

      Demonic Incursion:
      Tallyband
      Herald Lv 2 with ER, Locus
      6 units of Nurglings
      1 Unit of Plaguebearers

      Rotswarm
      Herald Lv 2 with GR, LR, Locus
      6 individual Beasts of Nurgle
      4 Plague Drones with Icon, Leader with LR, and Venom Stings

      Cabal
      Nurgle Bike Sorcerer Lv3, sigil, familiar, Burning Brand
      Terminator Sorcerer Lv3, Lost Memory of Yuranthos, Familiar,
      Slaanesh Sorcerer Lv3, sigil, familiar

      Renegades of Vraks
      Arch Demagogue Nurgle Covenant, Psyker upgrade (Warlord)
      30 Zombies
      20 Zombies

      • blackmage May 3, 2016 12:42 pm
        #

        never tried new Nurgle formations, happy to see your 4th place with that list, now im testing Infernal Tetrad 🙂

      • Stu May 13, 2016 6:04 pm
        #

        Regarding the Last Memory of the Yuranthos. I just recently picked up the new version of the Black Legion supplement. The rules for taking the model off the table from an amped up Sunburst changed from a failed pyschic test to perils of the warp. I’m still a novice player, but it seems to me a warp charge 3 or even 2 power that can’t perils without losing the model is super risky.

  15. jy2
    jy2 May 2, 2016 8:54 pm
    #

    Technically, Jame’s list was not illegal, at least not at the list submission phase (if ever there was one). Where it becomes illegal is when he starts rolling for Gifts. He can still roll for Exalted Gifts. He just couldn’t swap them out for the Portaglyph or Grimoire. Unfortunately, this is a common mistake that even a lot of Daemon players make (at least those who don’t play them full-time).

    • abusepuppy May 3, 2016 12:12 am
      #

      Actually he also has 60pts of Rewards, but is only allowed to buy 50pts- so still technically illegal there.

      • dudeisuck May 3, 2016 5:06 am
        #

        No, because the nurgle special relic specifically says it doesn’t count towards points for gifts. He has exactly 50 points in gifts, so that was legal. The only illegal thing was taking a grimoire in addition to a relic from the wulfen book.

      • Thomas Reidy
        Goatboy May 3, 2016 5:45 am
        #

        Greater gift is 20pts, exalted is 30 pts – so that is 50. The Extra Nurgle Grotti Relic is just an item you can take – on top of all of that.

        But yes – he can’t take grim on him as he has grotti relic as his only “hellforged” relic.

  16. Julnlecs May 2, 2016 9:08 pm
    #

    James list was Daemons Primary.

  17. bigpig May 3, 2016 12:34 am
    #

    For what it’s worth…. I clearly remember the TO announcing on bullhorn that if you discover a players list is illegal they automatically lose. Interesting conundrum as I don’t think he intentionally or negligently cheated. This is one of those “the game is pretty confusing atm things” as opposed to a “math error” like some of the other winning lists of late. The fact that so may winning lists are coming up illegal speaks to the need for list review BEFORE an event. This would also prevent waiting until you see your round 1 opponent to choose between one of two lists. I know it is a TON of work for TOs to do, but there has to be a way to do this. This would also address a way to figure some sort of comp as player scored “sportsmanship” is CLEARLY a broken system subject to subjective opinion and hurt feelings.

  18. ryan May 3, 2016 7:13 am
    #

    with respect and props for running such a weak faction and doing well, how many tournaments in the last month now have been won with guys running illegal lists. The oversight on these events HAS to be better. When considering travelling a large distance to a tourney, money should be the only thing i worry about, not going there and playing an illegal list. I am definetly now thinking twice about going on the road for a tourney until some changes are made or that specific tourney has harsh penalties for illegal lists.

    • Joshua Death May 3, 2016 7:21 am
      #

      My only counter to this is that the only lists that are getting “microscoped” after the events are the winning lists. I would wager that if you looked as closely at the majority of the other lists at these events you would probably find that the majority rather than the minority of these lists probably have similar type errors, or other errors of some type. Which again speaks to a need for some level of checks and balances in the competitive community. But I don’t think it is just the “individual” players that are having the issues.

      • abusepuppy May 3, 2016 7:39 am
        #

        I wouldn’t say a majority of lists have meaningful (as opposed to purely typographical) errors in them- maybe somewhere between 10% and 30%, depending. It just seems larger because there’s always a big brouhaha about the ones that _do_ have such errors when they win a tourney.

        • Happy_Inquisitor May 3, 2016 1:10 pm
          #

          The majority of lists I saw at an ITC event were not super-complicated and hence had less room for mistakes. I think most lists will turn out to be just fine.

          Right now it really does look like concentrating on the power of the list to the exclusion of putting much effort into its legality is a winning strategy – therefore it is one we should expect highly competitive players to be following.

          Post-event scrutiny might be the only viable option to curb the problem. If you know that being found out for a rules violation will nullify the win then suddenly players will have the motivation to put as much thought and effort into making their lists valid as they do into making them powerful.

          Just as a semi-relevant aside: in cycling a rider was found to have an illegal bike in a race in Belgium last winter. Regardless of her protestations of ignorance – which were irrelevant under the rules – all her results for the season were voided and she has a lengthy ban from the sport. Perhaps not surprisingly and despite lots of time and effort spent on detection this is to date the only rider found guilty of this offense.

          The risk/reward ratio for this in cycling is so bad that hardly anyone would ever take that risk. In competitive 40K is there any risk for taking an illegal list other than a few negative comments on the internet?

  19. Rancid Blade May 4, 2016 8:07 am
    #

    I don’t know that it matters that James had a little error in his list. At this point, the idea that the game is somehow balanced in any way is just crazy. The fact that he had one little error pales compared to the fact that some factions can build a list with so many rules breaking mechanics and others can’t. Oh, he included some price of wargear he shouldn’t have? How about the invisible 2++ with re-roll dogstar that is guaranteed to get the powers he wants because he has 24 psi powers and Fateweaver? Oh, and he gets to shoot my own guns at me… And we’re going to worry about an extra Nurgle Relic?

    I like James and he is a nice guy (who oddly can hold his drink with the best of them) and I was really rooting for him… but, this list is a hobby killing nightmare that should never have been allowed to been constructed. Playing this list pushed me past my suspension of disbelief that the ruleset works at all. And this type of break-the-game list isn’t even an oddity. That’s a real problem for 40k… RB

  20. Drakkol May 10, 2016 8:58 am
    #

    I am sorry, but where us this dogstar you are talking about getting a re-roll on a 2++? Tzeentch re-rolls 1s. Khorne dogs do not. I can tell you from experience even with all those rolls for psychic powers, he is not getting Invisibility, Cursed Earth (needed for your 2++ scenario above), and Endurance every game.

    Misinfornation is a problem when people are crying NERF!

    I am interested in how he played this list. Did he grimoire the dogs or Fatey? 4++ usually does not protect Fatey enough without the Grimoire.