List Review: Ravenwing Across the Pond

Today on List Review we’ve got a little something from the far side of the Atlantic- a Ravenwing list from a poster in Poland with a very different set of rules and restrictions to work with. For those of you in different metas, eyes open, ’cause we’re working with quite the change in assumptions here. Be sure to check out the Tactics Corner for more great articles!

(1470pts)

RAVENWING STRIKE FORCE

-Sammael 200pts

-Ravenwing Command Squad (5) 235pts

1x Grenade Launcher

Apothecary

Ravenwing Champion

-Ravenwing Bike Squad (3) 105pts

2x Grav Gun

-Ravenwing Bike Squad (3) 105pts

2x Grav Gun

-Ravenwing Bike Squad (3) 105pts

2x Grav Gun

-Ravenwing Attack Bike (1) 55pts

1x Multi-Melta

-Ravenwing Attack Bike (1) 55pts

1x Multi-Melta

-Ravenwing Attack Bike (1) 55pts

1x Multi-Melta

-Ravenwing Black Knights (3) 125pts

Melta-Bomb on sergeant

-Ravenwing Black Knights (3) 125pts

Melta-Bomb on sergeant

RAVENWING SUPPORT SQUADRON 305pts

-Darkshroud

-3x Land Speeder

-3x Typhoon Missile Launcher

-3x Heavy Bolter

-Unlimited detachments.

-No restrictions on anything rules-wise (D, Invisibility, 2+ re-rollable… none of that is modified).

-Ravenwing Strike Force played RAW (Sammael is only available HQ).

-Standard game-size is 1500pts (sometimes 1850).

-All missions include an Eternal War component, a Maelstrom (GW cards) component, Kill Points, plus Slay the Warlord, Firstblood, Linebreaker.

Since all missions include Kill Points, we all tend to aim to play lists with not many KP, or at least not easily killable ones.

So, we have an interesting little piece on our plate here. Ravenwing are very good- I’ve been running a RW component in my own tournament army for a number of months here and had very good experiences with them. The speed, hitting power, survivability, and flexibility of their units is hard to match- however, to this list is NOT taking good advantage of most of their abilities. While it certainly has some good tools in it, the list itself is problematic at best and doesn’t really do a good job of matching its own aims- for example, it notes that it wants to minimize Kill Points due to the mission rules, but has large numbers of minimized units. So we’re probably going to have to rebuild this army from the ground up in order to make it work, but the original poster said (in later comments) that he wasn’t bound to any particular specifications and just wanted the list improved overall.

The big thing to take note here is that the usual ITC restrictions are NOT in place, which is absolutely huge as a take-away. Ravenwing are potentially huge in such an environment due to their ability to get a 2+ rerollable cover save, but there are plenty of other things to worry about. However, the tournaments also do not allow Forge World rules, meaning that some of the very threatening Lords of War (such as AP2 Ignores Cover mega-blasts) are not available; apparently flyers in general (and Heldrakes in particular) are also rare in his area, which lets us tick off another potential point of concern for the army.

So, we want an army that scores objectives well, doesn’t easily give up KP easily, and has enough punch to it to make folks worry. These are all very doable things within the context of a Ravenwing force, as RW are mobile enough (and punchy enough) that they can often overrun objectives even despite lacking ObSec and are extremely hard to get rid of with any kind of shooting- at my most recent tournament, I had a three-man unit of Black Knights tank twenty saves from a squad of Scatter Bikes without losing a single member. This is obviously better than average, but it’s not so much better that you shouldn’t expect to see it happen reasonably often- that reroll on Jink saves is absolutely clutch and lets you simply ignore many armies main strategy outright.

So what we’re looking to add to the army is actually not the main strategy (i.e. survivability) because we’ve got that covered; instead, we need to tinker with the support components that are added to solve problems for the army and look at rejiggering the main body of the force to more accurately suit our aims.

The Ravenwing

First off, let’s address the Ravenwing component of the army. Being forced to take Sammael is unfortunate because that guy is little more than a weight around our neck, but sadly it is a necessary evil in this circumstance. Sammy does at least have one thing going for him, a good warlord trait- between Scout, two movement phases and the potential for Turbo-Boost we should be getting into combat on turn 2 every single time, and against unwary foes we can very easily get into combat in the first turn by simply choosing not to Scout up. Our minimum threat range is 17″ and 21″ is a pretty reliable number for Sammy’s unit- and should the enemy deploy on the line, a roll of ‘9’ on the dice will get us in on the first turn, far from impossible to see.

Beyond Sammael himself, our aim with the Ravenwing Strike Force is simple: we want to stay alive, get into fights where the opponent can’t deal with us, and overwhelm them early before attrition can wear down our total number of models. This essentially prohibits us from making any use of the two Ravenwing flyers despite them being pretty decent, as they are forced to start in reserve and thus also make the whole detachment stay in reserve, as per its own rules- we want to play aggressively, and while the option to stay in reserve is handy to have, we don’t want to lock ourselves into that decision every game.

Our main trick is going to be achieving a 2+ rerollable cover save across the whole army; this is critical because the progression of survivability is exponential as our save goes up. A 4+ rerollable passes 75% of the time, but a 3+ rerollable passes 89% of the time and a 2+ rerollable passes a back-breaking 97% of the time. And that’s the average– you would be well within your rights to expect to pass two hundred saves in a row some games. What this means in essence is that a Ravenwing army under full buffs simply cannot be shot at without Ignores Cover- it simply does not accomplish anything, end of story. It is thus imperative that we maximize our ability to get this across all of our units.

The Darkshroud, obviously, is one component of this- the Speeder itself has the Shrouded rule (meaning it can Jink for a 2+) and it grants Stealth to all other Dark Angels units within 6″. As a fairly important side benefit, it also denies enemies the ability to fire Overwatch if we charge from within 6″ of the Darkshroud- this can help us take care of some very problematic units (such as Wraithguard) and armies (such as Tau), so it’s a welcome benefit. While AV10 does not excite, three HP does at least grant us the ability to hopefully survive the one or two Ignores Cover shots capable of hurting us before we get into combat. However, as a 6″ radius is actually pretty small, we will have to look seriously into investing into more than one of them- mobility is a big advantage of the army, so we don’t want to be confining ourselves to a relatively-small area of the battlefield if we can help it.

The second component of our 2+ shenanigans is Skilled Rider, which grants us (amongst other things) +1 to our Jink saves. Normal Ravenwing Bikers do not have not have the rule, sadly, but Black Knights and Sammael do, which is why we will be focusing on them. Black Knights in particular deserve a lot more credit than they get- with three attacks standing still, S5 rending in melee, Scout and Hit and Run and all of the other standard Ravenwing rules, twin-linked Plasmaguns on every model, and the option to pick up Stasis Grenades (-1WS/Init to any unit hit by them) they are an absolute package even at 40pts a piece. The strength of Ravenwing comes largely from the Knights, who can do essentially any job you can imagine with relative proficiency. Combined with their survivability and speed, a Ravenwing army can simply drown the enemy in tough, punchy bodies that no unit is fast enough to escape from and even melee forces will find themselves overwhelmed as the Knights make favorable charges, block movement, and soften up tough targets with the aid of Stasis and other abilities.

The Other

However, like any army Ravenwing need some help from their friends to get by- Black Knights do everything fairly well but don’t excel in any particular arena, so we need to bring in some specialists to help us out. We want these other units to fit with our general strategy- aggressive, fast, and multitalented. We’d also like them to have a bit of melee punch if possible, because S5 Rending is a great general-purpose profile, but when you’re trying to break walkers, MCs, 2+ saves, and other tough targets it can be really unreliable.

Two general options open themselves to us: Thunderwolves and Librarian Conclave. The former uses the Company of the Great Wolf to bring 3-4 characters riding Thunderwolves and carrying Power Fists to add some serious hitting power to the list for a reasonable price; although it doesn’t help a lot with our overall body count, S10 AP2 attacks are hard to resist, especially in numbers. The latter option is pretty simple- we bring a trio of Level 2 Librarians on bikes to the party to spam out powerful spells, including Prescience, Invisibility, Summoning, etc. While less reliable (as we don’t always know what powers we’ll roll up) it does have the advantage of flexibility- we can customize our powers game-to-game to handle many different types of targets, and can shut down many enemy shenanigans like 2+ rerollable invulns, etc by virtue of our own psyker status.

Choosing between these two options is actually fairly difficult, but we have a small saving grace here- they come to almost exactly the same number of points, so we really don’t have to choose, at least not from a list-building perspective. I’ll go with the Thunderwoof version below, but for those that want to try the alternative it’s a simple matter to swap it out for the other. Note that we favor Iron Hands chapter tactics for several reasons- we already have HnR and Skilled Rider, making their presence on the Librarians redundant and the FNP allows us to more easily shrug off Perils wounds when we take them (especially while joined to the Command Squad and its Apothecary) and IWND helps us in this regard as well.

Made by: www.maxviolence.deviantart.com

New and Improved

1500pts

RAVENWING STRIKE FORCE

1 Sammael (Warlord) (200)

6 Ravenwing Command Squad (Apothecary, 2 Grenade Launcher) (270)

3 Black Knights (Grenade Launcher) (120)

3 Black Knights (Grenade Launcher) (120)

3 Black Knights (Grenade Launcher) (120)

3 Black Knights (Grenade Launcher) (120)

1 Attack Bike (Multimelta) (55)

1 Darkshroud (80)

1 Darkshroud (80)

COMPANY OF THE GREAT WOLF

1 Wolf Guard Battle Leader (Thunderwolf, Power Fist) (125)

1 Iron Priest (Thunderwolf) (105)

1 Iron Priest (Thunderwolf) (105)

So we essentially have five units of Knights to distribute our characters amongst; we can either ball them all up into the Command Squad if we need a deathstar with maximum survivability or we can distribute them to the various squads to spread our threats out. Our ability to kill vehicles at range is pretty limited, unfortunately, but we accept that and work under the assumption that our S10 AP1 melee attacks from the Priests can do most of the work as needed. Walkers are surprisingly annoying for us to deal with, though tanking wounds with Sammael is a possibility under some circumstances; Imperial Knights are particularly problematic.

The pair of Darkshrouds is a little bit overkill for such a small army but I think the redundancy is needed so that one lucky jerk getting an order from Yarrick or sniping with Tau doesn’t disable our whole strategy. Note that against Tau we typically want to Outflank- most Tau shooting is not dangerous to us in and of itself, but rather when supported by Markerlights. If we can eliminate their sources of ML hits before they can respond (by getting the first turn, Outflanking, etc) we are in a much better position even if they have Interceptor.

One thing the original poster asked for was expansion to 1850, which is actually exceptionally easy in this case- we would prefer this to be an 1850 list, as it turns out. Adding two or three more Black Knight squads (with the potential for some more Attack Bikes to take the place of the last one) would be our go-to choice. We also have the option to bring in support elements via the CotG detachment if we need it- this is more relevant when Forge World is available for stuff like Hyperios Batteries, but it’s not without strengths here as well.

That just about wraps it up for this installment of List Review; hopefully this has been helpful and informative to all of you out there.

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About abusepuppy

AbusePuppy is the one who has been ruining 40K for everyone this whole time. He is also searching for the six-fingered man and is one of the three people who know the secret recipe for coke (not the soda, the illegal drug.)

19 Responses to “List Review: Ravenwing Across the Pond”

  1. FrequentRespawn November 3, 2015 6:30 am
    #

    hmmmm….”This essentially prohibits us from making any use of the two Ravenwing flyers despite them being pretty decent, as they are forced to start in reserve and thus also make the whole detachment stay in reserve, as per its own rules”…the whole detachment will not stay in reserve since the rule declares that either you deploy all in reserve or deploy as normal. Normal deployment for a flyer is in reserve.
    All in all a great article, good choice of units, although i prefer lesser grenade launcher. In theory they are very strong but being only strength 3 I seem to not get them to work.

    • abusepuppy November 3, 2015 10:51 am
      #

      They don’t need to cause a wound in order to trigger the Stasis Anomaly effect- they just need to hit the target. I fire them at stuff like Knights and Wraithknights all the time in preparation for the charge.

      As for the Ravenwing thing, in that context “as normal” means “on the battlefield”- which is explicitly in contrast to deploying in reserve as per the text of the rule.

  2. Karaghul November 3, 2015 7:07 am
    #

    First of all, thanks a lot for the list review! I hope it was interesting to write in regards to a very different meta.

    It is true that Black Knights are ridiculously good with the 2+ re-rollable. I think I was a bit set on building lists with so many “normal” bikes because I own so many of them, haha.
    I’ll probably recycle them for a future WS list. 🙂

    I like the fact most units are fairly cheap. When I face Ignore Cover (WS) Centstars, which I frequently will, I can put one IC in each small BK unit, and at least minimise the damage.

    And against Wraithknights, I may not have grav, but I can now solidly crush them in close combat, and Sammy should be able to tank a couple of wounds until I get to swing, thanks to EW, and spare a couple of BKs from death.

    Also, what you mentioned points-wise is great:
    -CotGW and a Librarius only differ in 5pts.
    -2 more 3x BK units, and 2 more Attack Bikes come up to exactly 350pts, 1850 list right there. The extra MMeltas would be nice when facing Fortifications (quite popular here) and Knights.
    -I suppose going all-out-deathstar with both CotGW and Librarius, getting in the RW auto-HnR-Standard with the spare points (at 1850) could be an option from time to time too, nice to able to play 3 different lists with essentially the same models. 🙂

    Just a few questions:

    -In regards to Tau and Outflanking: Per “Strike as One”, from the RWSF, ALL units from the RWSF would have to be left in reserve (auto-arriving turn 2), making the Wolves then have to remain hidden turn 1 so I don’t auto-lose by having no models on the table.
    I figure it could certainly be viable, but I just wonder if this is how you reasoned too, or if you forgot the “Strike as One” rule while writing in that regard?

    -Do you reckon the amount of RW Grenade Launchers in the smaller squads (4) is necessary?
    I figure quite often you will be attacking a single unit with 2+ BK units, and, although 2+ GLs net you a back-up in case one missess, any after the 1st one doesn’t do much if the 1st one did hit (as opposed to additional plasma).
    Actually, as I typed that up, I kind of became convinced, it shouldn’t be unusual to charge something just with a single BK unit + 1 Wolf, and BKs can die quite easily in close-combat (at least when compared to shooting), so it might well be worth it.
    It would be interesting to hear your opinion on it though.

    -Is there any specific match-up you think the list should be weary of, to keep in mind?
    Other than the obvious: Tau in general, Helldrakes (albeit uncommon here), Ignore-Cover Centstars and probably 2+ Imperial Knights?
    I figure Drop Pod Skitarii could be quite rough with their cover-reducing mechanics too.

    Once again, thanks a lot for the insightful review. 🙂

    • Vercingatorix November 3, 2015 8:01 am
      #

      I think daemons will be a difficult challenge to this list. Screamers can do the strength 5 ap2 attacks(and have 2+ re-rollable). The plague drones can hurt you with sheer number of high strength attacks. Really any solid melee army, even orks. I think an imperial guard army would hurt you a lot. A couple blobs to keep you away and ignore cover artillery will hurt.

      I think battle-company plus thunderfires would be another common army that would fair well against you as well.

      • Karaghul November 3, 2015 8:54 am
        #

        Oh yeah, screamers with 2+ re-rollable could definitely be an issue. Didn’t come to mind at once, but you are totally right, that would be scary. :/

        However, I disagree in regards to the other match-ups:

        -Orcs: FW isn’t allowed in our meta, so no Zargsnarg (spelling?) and his bikes + Initiative Klaw. A large unit of boyz with several klaws could be problematic in close combat, but also, comparatively very slow and easy to play around (eg. charging in a way that limits the amount of klaws that can swing).
        Meganobz can just be shot to pieces (no invulnerable).

        -Guard: Given the shape and size of bike and thunderwolf bases, respectively, blast weapons cannot expect to get outstanding amounts of wounds in (and not be able to shoot many times either, given the army’s speed), and if the ignores cover comes from lascannons, the amount of shots should be small enough that the wounds can be distributed among ICs without losing many BKs.
        Once I get into combat with blob(s), the BKs should be able to carve through it quite fast (not to mention the Fists).
        Keep in mind also that even his power axes would be wounding me on 5s, and that I have HnR.

        -BC with thunderfires: See above in regards to blasts.
        Also, RW tends to fair well against BC in general, and we are talking of 1500pts lists, a BC with multiple Thunderfires is quite a lot of points.

        • Vercingatorix November 3, 2015 11:26 am
          #

          Keeping the meta in mind is tough with both orks and guard. A lot of their nasty stuff comes from forgeworld. Guard can get strength 10 api ignore cover large blast. That would be bad for you! However, you’re right, without access to artillery their bombardment isn’t so bad.

          I think you may be surprised on the efficiency of the blob squad. 50 wounds is a LOT of wounds. Especially if they hide behind an aegis so you can’t shoot them. They often have enough psychers to have forewarning and I think they usually have FnP? I could be wrong on that. It’s definitely not a squad to assume a walk through. Even with that many bikes it may take you a couple turn so of assault to mulch through. They also often have those nasty grenades which can make your entire assault phase a waste. They’re very good at dealing with elite lists like this one. It’s certainly not an unwinnable game but I think you will find yourself at a disadvantage.

          I think the wolves are really your best bet for Orks. I play greentide so thunderwolves are really a bad match up in most missions.However, If my weirdboy decides to cooperate and roll hammerhand then I think you will be in a lot of trouble.

          It’s definitely a strong list.

      • abusepuppy November 3, 2015 11:03 am
        #

        Screamers that have a full 2++ buffed would be harsh, certainly, but their hitting power is actually pretty weak (you’re looking at ~3 AP2 wounds, which you could potentially tank on characters and take FNP against) so it’s really just a matter of waiting for them to fail one of their buffs and then jumping on the opportunity.

        Wyverns and Thunderfires can also be obnoxious, although good model placement can seriously reduce the amount of hits they get. Bike bases are enormous. Blobs are actually good for the army- it’s somewhere to hide from the artillery and HnR lets you jump out and kill them after.

        Battle Company in 1500 doesn’t really have the points to meaningfully field Thunderfires. In fact, it can barely fit anything at all at that low of a points total.

        • Vercingatorix November 3, 2015 11:30 am
          #

          Certainly the screamerstar has lower hitting power but it only takes 3 AP2 wounds to wipe one of his squads. Don’t forget all the hammer of wratth attacks as well, that’s a few regular wounds as well.

          Fair enough on the battle company. I don’t play marines but I know I played a double battlecompany in 2500 so I figured it was possible. I think massed 3+ armor + rhinos all over the table would be very effective against this list.

          • abusepuppy November 3, 2015 11:45 am
            #

            The thing is, you wouldn’t be fighting the Screamerstar with just one of the squads, you’d be throwing all five units at it to try and overwhelm them before they can do anything- and, like many fights, Stasis Grenades help a ton here by letting you strike first and hit on 3s against them.

            Battle Company is _possible_ at 1500pts, certainly, but it ends up with essentially no support elements and can’t really afford any of the toys that make it really nasty, so it’s a lot easier fight than it might otherwise be. Black Knights are actually really good at smashing Rhinos and mopping up squads of basic MEQs; ObSec will mean that the early-battle scoring will be rough, but they simply don’t have the firepower to really hurt the Ravenwing, so they’re looking at losing 2-4 units every turn for the whole game.

    • abusepuppy November 3, 2015 10:59 am
      #

      With regards to reserving: yes, you would want to hide one of the Wolfy characters somewhere far away where the Tau can’t get to him. As Tau don’t really have any barrage weapons, this is typically not a problem unless your boards are really light on terrain.

      I prefer having one GL in each Knight squad for two reasons: first, for redundancy. The Stasis effect is absolutely huge and you will often be Jinking with many of your units, meaning those squads are unable to fire a Stasis shot. By having one GL in every squad, you can all but guarantee that you will be able to get one off when needed. Second, Plasma overheats are really rough for this army, so much so that I will often throw Krak or fire Bolt Pistols on overwatch rather than risk setting myself on fire. GLs give you a functional gun to use when Snap Shooting that won’t kill your dudes.

      Anything that reduces your cover save is going to suck for you- as you say, Tau, Skitarii, and the new WS relics are all problems. However, there’s not a lot you can do about that- it’s basically your fate as a Ravenwing army. Putting the Iron Priests in front can be useful to try and tank a few Ignores Cover wounds sometimes, but it’s not reliable. If you are really struggling with that sort of thing, consider switching over to the Librarius Conclave version and go for Invisibility, which most Ignores Cover units can’t deal with well. (Also, against Dark Reapers and their ilk remember that the Ravenwing rule lets you reroll ANY cover save while Jinking, not just the Jink save.)

      • Karaghul November 3, 2015 12:41 pm
        #

        Thanks for the explanations.

        Also, that point about the Ravenwing rule is just phenomenal. I actually recently played against some Dark Reapers and a regular cover save + Stealth from the Darkshroud helped quite a lot, but I had not realised that normal covers also are re-rollable as long as you Jink. That is huge.
        Thank you for pointing that one out. 😀

    • Joshua Taylor November 3, 2015 1:49 pm
      #

      One note about Wraithknights,
      I think that you should practice vs. them before you assume you can crush them in melee, the meta in my area has comped ranged D shooting, so most Eldar players take the Melee version of the wraithknight. You get into a real problem of who charges who when looking at how well the thunderwolfs can deal with the wraithknight. Keep a few things in mind.
      Most players will not give you an auto make charge, forcing something like 7-10 inches. In the event that you make the charge with no extra movement to spare you may not get to attack with all the thunderwolfs.
      This is a real problem, because the wraithknight attacks first most-likely killing some bike fodder, and maybe killing a wolf.
      2nd even 3 thunderwolfs on the charge is something like 15 attacks. Average 8 hits
      Average 7 wounds. 5++ inv, saves this to something like 4.5, 5+FNP saves it again to around 3.25. Not bad, but a long way from killing the Knight as well. Making you suffer 2 rounds of melee, + 2 rounds of stomping before you can take this dood down,

      • Karaghul November 3, 2015 3:26 pm
        #

        Yeah, “crush” was definitely too theatrical of a word, but Thunderwolves fighting a Gargantuan Creature, I guess some grandeur is appropriate. 😛

        However, the odds look a bit better than that:

        -Our meta plays with unrestricted ranged D, so I am yet to see a sword-WK, thus, his attacks can be, to an extent, tanked my Sammy (EW), before having to pass it to a biker. No Wolves dead.

        -The BKs (ST5) can wound him on 6s, which will be Rending too (A3 each, A4 if charging), so it is not just down to the Wolves.

        Assuming I charge:

        -As long as 1+ unit(s) of BKs didn’t jink last turn, the WK will be swinging at the same time as my BKs, and I will be hitting on 3s (due to the GL’s Stasis Grenades).

        -Depending on the amount of units mobbing up on him, he might have taken 1 or 2 wounds from the plasma, even though it wounds him on 5s. I did say “in close combat though”.

        The stomps would most definitely have my sphincters clenching though, no doubt.
        AND, if HE charges me, then no Stasis Grenade, a few less attacks, and of course, no ganging up on him with multiple squads.

        Ultimately, yeah, “crush” was probably a bit more saga-like than statistical. 😛
        Thank you for the feedback!

        I’m optimistic though, the list can down a WK better than the previous one (where, asides from alpha-strike/RWSF’s turn 1 “free-jink”, once the grav squads were forced to jink, I couldn’t dream of it), and is essentially immune to Eldar shooting elements, bar Dark Reapers, D-Cannons, and units joined by a Farseer using Perfect Timing, so I’m happy with the improvement. 🙂

  3. Crispy86 November 3, 2015 6:24 pm
    #

    A nice break down dude and a great read.

  4. jadedknight November 3, 2015 9:29 pm
    #

    Something to consider for 1850 – Option back in the Ravenwing support squadron as you had it and drop the dual darkshrounds. Escorted by the speeders the single shroud is much less vulnerable and that formation is awesome. This should leave you a few extra points to play with.

    Plus it plugs a hole against things like WKs (you can put wounds on them with the missiles at range) and vehicles.

    I run a list just like this and have found BK spam very effective. I do think the quantity of grenade launchers is overkill here. What hard targets do you actually want to charge where -1 init is going to do more for you than two casualties/wounds from the plasma you lost? Often with hard targets it’s better to shoot and then overwatch at BS2 for an extra round of plasma in the face when they charge you.

    TL plasma is very worth the risk long term. You need 1/6 1/6 and then 1/3 to lose a guy. It will happen but not frequently enough to be shy.

    Generally armies that force you to jink a lot don’t charge and armies that charge you can take the risk and not jink. Remember you are BS2 on overwatch so the odds of a hit with each plasma is ~50%. The odds of a overheat casualty is 2/3 * 1/6 * 1/3. That’s about 3%. Will this happen? Yes. Is it worth it shooting that plasma? Almost always yes.

    • abusepuppy November 4, 2015 12:39 am
      #

      >What hard targets do you actually want to charge where -1 init is going to do more for you than two casualties/wounds from the plasma you lost?

      Wraithknights. Imperial Knights. Thunderwolves. Screamers. Seer Council. Flesh Hounds. Ork Bikerstars. Any sort of enemy MEQ or I5 target.

      I can’t emphasize enough how strong Stasis Grenades are in turning a fight; swinging before the enemy and hitting them on 3s (or forcing them to swing at the same time, rather than before, you) is absolutely huge.

      Plasma, on the other hand, is VERY dangerous to you during Overwatch (albeit not useless) or when Jinking. Having some number of Plasma Talons to shoot with is certainly handy and I’ve softened up or destroyed many things with them, but it is inevitably the Stasis Grenade that does the most work- and you need enough Grenade Launchers that you can insure at least one of them won’t be Jinking (and thus able ot fire.)

      Ravenwing rule gets you into fights. Corvus Hammers and Stasis Grenades win you fights. Lacking any of those elements, you will find yourself taking a LOT more casualties.

      • jadedknight November 4, 2015 9:28 pm
        #

        Ok let’s math this out. The incremental wounds of an extra TL Plasma (A) versus the incremental benefit of stasis for a unit of 3 BKs plus . (B) Each is the incremental increase in wounds. Where it’s suicide to charge without stasis (e.g. wraighkinight) I’ll include the wounds of an overwatch versus total cc assault instead of incremental value of -1 WS

        WK:
        A) .59 + 1.11 = 1.6
        B) 1.33 expected wounds in CC

        Imperial Knight
        A) .11 more glances
        B) .33 more glances

        T Wolves
        A) .37
        B) .33

        Screamers
        A) .98
        B) .88

        Seer Council (presuming with fortune)
        A) .37
        B) .33

        Flesh Hounds
        A) .49
        B) No offensive boost, FH are WS5

        I stopped here. Besides a slight advantage against the WK Plasma has the edge everytime offensively and is certainly better against all other targets. However the edge is small so it would be easy to conclude with playtesting that stasis is better offensively. Let’s think about loss due to overheating though.

        Per my math earlier, 6 Plasma shots at BS2 TL has a ~20% chance of losing a model, this goes up to 25% if using BS1. That’s an expected material cost of 8 pts or 10 pts. You’ll easily do more material damage to any of the above units by using plasma in an overwatch shot except the flesh hounds. Are there tactical situations where you should hold your fire or use bolt pistols? Sure but fear of gets hot is not a mathematically sound reason to select a grenade launcher over plasma.

        What might be interesting is too look at the mathematical benefit of stasis over plasma versus SOFT targets.

  5. Greg November 4, 2015 2:15 am
    #

    In the revised list you’ve taken out one of the key components the Ravenwing Support squadron.

    This unit allows you to deploy off the board and come on turn 2 it has Interceptor Ravenshield (supporting overwatch) as well as its 2+ jink

    If you were upping the points to 1850 as a Ravenwing player I’d say take a Conclave, white scars now have some artifacts which ignores cover its a shame they stuck us with Ezekiel in ours as even with only 3+ to cast I’d prefer to just use DA

    • Karaghul November 4, 2015 7:54 am
      #

      For a Conclave, I would use Clan Raukaan as source rather than White Scars for two reasons:

      -The Ignores Cover relic doesn’t really give much to a RW Command Squad that will be jinking most of the game, and getting its business done in close combat. Neither does HnR, which the squad already has.

      -Clan Raukaan Librarians get their FnP boosted to 4+, along with IWND, much better peril-protection, specially since they might be summoning from time to time.
      Also, one of Clan Raukaan’s relics (Librarian only) is a 15pts Force Thunderhammer, which can be quite handy, especially if playing with no Wolves in the list.