2015 Season ITC Quarterly Update Poll

ITC

Time to make your voice heard! We’ve got the 2015 ITC Season 3rd Quarter Update Poll. It runs today through Sunday, October 11th.

Not a ton to vote on this quarter as we’ve had the Summer of Sigmar for most of the past quarter. Going off of the rules submission questionnaire, we got a lot of feedback but covering a very broad spectrum of topics, but there were not many topics that came up frequently. The only persistent issues brought up were those below.

Thank you as always for voting and making the ITC what it is!

To cast your vote, follow this link!

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About Reecius

The fearless leader of the intrepid group of gamers gone retailers at Frontline Gaming!
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Panzer1944
Panzer1944
6 years ago

I’ve done my civic duty.

Ivan Cho
Ivan Cho
6 years ago

Allow use of experimental suits.

westrider
6 years ago

Vote early, vote often!

Fraktalen
Fraktalen
6 years ago

Please make a vote if multilevel ruins should be using 7th ed rules instead of 6th.

Adam (thediceabide.com)
Reply to  Reecius

Maybe he means playing without any rules, since the rulebook doesn’t address multi level ruins. 😛

AbusePuppy
AbusePuppy
6 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

Presumably he’s talking about having blast/template weapons hit all “levels” simultaneously, since in 7E levels are not actually really a thing anymore.

Tiberius183
Tiberius183
6 years ago
Reply to  AbusePuppy

Oh HELL no. The only rules for multi-level ruins is one of the things 6th ed got RIGHT, IMO…

Fraktalen
Fraktalen
6 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

From the Nova 2015 FAQ: Blast and Template weapons will hit all models underneath the blast or template. Keep in mind
Levels of Ruins is a dated rule explicitly removed by Games Workshop as of 7th Edition. This
includes blast weapons with the Barrage special rule.

I would like to see a vote on using this in ITC as well.

Fraktalen
Fraktalen
6 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

Well it would be great if people could at least choose which floor to hit instead of always hitting the top floor with barrage. Cause right now ruins act as free indestructible bunkers.

Countering barrage weapons by using certain terrain is not optimal imo.

tiberius183
tiberius183
6 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

^this. The 6th ed rules made more sense.

fraktalen
fraktalen
6 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

I get your point, but it’s still a huge nerf to barrage weapons. Going from hitting all levels to only hitting the top. Rendering it completely useless in certain situations. I just think its weird that you dont even make a vote about it since it has quite a big impact on the game.

And besides maybe thats the design intent of barrage weapons – that you shouldnt be able to hide.

Requizen
Requizen
6 years ago

I’m torn on the last one. I like how people mix and match rules to create something stronger than the sum of it’s parts – in fact, I think that’s one of the most fun things about gaming. But, it is pretty abusive in certain cases.

elphilo
elphilo
6 years ago
Reply to  Requizen

Yeah that left my head scratching too. What’s the thing that is jumping out at people and making them want to change that?

Requizen
Requizen
6 years ago
Reply to  elphilo

The current abuse case from my understanding is something like a TWC star with allied White Scars SM Bikers, giving them Hit and Run. So, you have a big scary TWC star that also can jump in and out of combat.

elphilo
elphilo
6 years ago
Reply to  Requizen

But you still can get that with DA/SW. The thing says that BA/DA/SW won’t lose their rules in a mixed unit. . . .

elphilo
elphilo
6 years ago
Reply to  elphilo

Then I guess I don’t understand the point of that vote lol.

You’ll just force players to play with Ravenwing instead of White Scars (in the TWC scenario).

Meanwhile GKs aren’t in this CT debate. Which I’m assuming was an oversight 😉

AbusePuppy
AbusePuppy
6 years ago
Reply to  Requizen

Actually, the poll wouldn’t change that any- as per the SM codex, you only lose Chapter Tactics that apply to UNITS, not models, so Hit and Run would be unaffected (as would Feel No Pain from IH, Bolter Drill and Tank Hunters from IF, etc.)

aaronaleong
aaronaleong
6 years ago
Reply to  AbusePuppy

So one major tournament win at Nova and a vote to change it is on the docket??

Really kind of over reacting.The ITC rulings already make the list more difficult to run as it was built.

How about things like the Grimoire, Doomstone, etc?

Black Blow Fly
6 years ago
Reply to  AbusePuppy

I have to agree with Aaron. If nerfs are being handed make it universal.

aaronaleong
aaronaleong
6 years ago
Reply to  AbusePuppy

Reece,

Thanks for the quick feedback. I agree that overall the community sees certain combos and wants balance. I wish more people knew what daemons actually do at the highest levels of competition. The most unbalanced combo/ruleset is truly the chaos daemon codex. I just happen to play against three of the top daemon players too often. If community balance is the goal then things like seer council/screamer star, horrify/doomstone, grimoire, etc are definitely an opportunity for community balance.

Thanks again Reece

Codi
Codi
6 years ago

Why are Grey Knights excluded from that list on the final question?

Also the way I understand chapter tactics, the only rules that are lost are those that refer to units (ie units of White Scars), however if the rules refers to White Scar models then the models keep their chapter tactics.

Hotsauceman1
Hotsauceman1
6 years ago
Reply to  Codi

Ikeep saying that, but no one believes me

AbusePuppy
AbusePuppy
6 years ago
Reply to  Codi

You are correct in that regard, although knowing the way things usually go Reece is gonna jump in and tell me the ITC changed that rule, also. 😐

westrider
6 years ago
Reply to  Codi

That’s my understanding as well. There are a couple of BT abilities, and I think one RavenGuard one, but the rest all specify “Models”, not “Units”, so they don’t care if the Model is in a Unit of a different type.

AbusePuppy
AbusePuppy
6 years ago
Reply to  westrider

White Scars let units reroll Run results.

Black Templars units gain Rage/CA when shot.

Raven Guard jump units gain some bonuses.

Those are the only three Chapter Tactics actually affected by things.

Hotsauceman1
Hotsauceman1
6 years ago

Im a Tau Player, and I think more then one Stormsurge Will break the game.

Kevin Lantz
Kevin Lantz
6 years ago
Reply to  Hotsauceman1

why do you think that if you don’t mind answering? you do know it’s got a 3+ armor save and toughness 6 right? not an army in the game that can’t shoot it down with just their regular guns.

iNcontroL
6 years ago

Will be interesting!

jy2
jy2
6 years ago

Stormsurge in a unit is no big deal. It will actually hurt the Tau army more than it will help IMO.

The limit on Chapter Tactics with other Marine books is to limit the abuse on deathstars units. However, as someone else already pointed out here, Chapter Tactics-abuse can just be replaced by units from a different codex (so instead of allying White Scars, you can just bring in Ravenwing allies or even Cypher for Hit-&-Run).

And I forgot what the last question was.

Hope I’m not influencing anyone’s vote. 😉

Jural
Jural
6 years ago
Reply to  jy2

Personally, I’m OK with mixing chapter tactics in an ITC environment (with limits on Inivis, re-rollable 2+, etc).

but it’s just insane without those limitations removed.

Warmaster_GIR
Warmaster_GIR
6 years ago

Im excited to see Experimental rules. There are so many cool things that are experimental, none of which really break or imbalance the game more that any of the official units. (I’m looking at your Wraith Knights). Changing the rules for Chapter Tactics seems a bit far reaching for my taste and it doesn’t really address the issue at heart, which to me is the problems with the allies matrix. Also three stormsurges may seem scary but I doubt it will see much play. Generally three of those guys as a single lord of war slot is probably going to run you 1200 points. Unless they change dramatically with the new book I don’t see them being overpowering. Also with 24 GC wounds that adds up to 8 possible maelstrom points for their opponent.

Warmaster_GIR
Warmaster_GIR
6 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

Yay Doritos Dreadnought, that thing is so cool, also I like the concept of being able to use my Y’vahra and R’varna so I may have been just a wee bit biased.

Rolling thunder
Rolling thunder
6 years ago

What about changing rules for cover so that Gargantuan MC do not get a save for “toe in” cover?

Sam
Sam
6 years ago

This ^
I am sure this was a popular submission request
I know it hurts tyranids but my goodness is this tactic abused and makes no sense.

Jural
Jural
6 years ago
Reply to  Sam

Hurts Tyranids in the sense that it makes manyof their builds unplayable and forces them to be all Tyrants.

But I think a good middle ground would have been- FMC and Gargantuan MC use the vehicle requirements for cover (25% or more of the model obscured). MC retain the current ruling.

Heck, I would be in favor of making walkers act just like MC in this regard.

Mike
Mike
6 years ago
Reply to  Jural

I just don’t think it hurts the nids as much as people say. It’s pretty easy for walking tyrants, fexes, and the other codex MC’s to be 25% obscured and still get the same save they always have. They’re still small enough that things like venomthropes and zoans in front would cause cover, as well as ruin walls.

AbusePuppy
AbusePuppy
6 years ago
Reply to  Mike

It does hurt the Heirodule, though, which is one of like four playable units in the Tyranid codex these days.

N.I.B.
N.I.B.
6 years ago
Reply to  Mike

So not only am I handicapping myself by playing footslogging Tyranids, now I’m forced to shove my Venomthrope/Zoanthrope IN FRONT OF my big MC’s, were it will die in a heartbeat, and leave my MC’s unprotected again.

Or be forced to play with other horrible T4 models to act as the most expensive screen in 40K.

Thing is, this was a decent tactic in 5th ed when Hive Guards didn’t suck and the Tervigon/Termagant synergies weren’t nerfed into oblivion and Intervening cover saves were 4+ and FNP was also 4+ and guaranteed because it was available as a purchasable upgrade for 15 points for all Tervigons. You could run an onion layered build with good staying power.

Gants in first line, 6-9 Hive Guards second line, MC’s third line. Everyone except cannonfodder Gants were 25% obsured.

Mike
Mike
6 years ago

I was quite sad to see that toe in cover was skipped as a question yet again.

Jural
Jural
6 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

It isn’t really a rules question though, it’s 100% clear what is intended based on the rulebook (Unlike- can a GMC fire more than 2 weapons, for example.)

It could be that people are submitting proposed rules changes, only requests for clarification.

Mike
Mike
6 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

Wait, you mean the rules submission form? That’s a bad way to gauge it. We KNOW how the rule works. We don’t need to ask about it. That doesn’t mean it’s not one of the sillier rules in the game at the moment.

Rolling thunder
Rolling thunder
6 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

Hey Reece,
I think people did not bring up the GARGANTUAN MC issue because, as stated above, it is not a rule question.

In my mind, with allowing DA characters on bikes to get the RW rule, the ITC made one if it’s first big RAI changes (yes there have been some before, but never specific to one army), since RAW it is wrong (I agree with the change, BTW). Now that the ITC has “dipped it’s toes” into changing rules for RAI, I think it is reasonable to consider some other egregious rules, like gargantuan and swooping MC with a toe in cover. Note I am not referring to regular MC, they can still get their ridiculous benefit over vehicles

Novastar
Novastar
6 years ago

Where is the add “Warhound Titan” option!!!!

Novastar
Novastar
6 years ago
Reply to  Novastar

It had a change.org petition!!! Lol 😉

Jural
Jural
6 years ago

Just so I understand, is the current ITC “1 Lord of War per army” actually a LOW limitation or is it a limitation on Super heavies and Gargantuans?

So can I field Azrael and a Knight, for example?

jy2
jy2
6 years ago
Reply to  Jural

With the exception of a Knight detachment, apparently the LoW restriction is a 1 model per army restriction.

jy2
jy2
6 years ago
Reply to  Jural

No matter if it is a LoW character or Super-heavy/gargant.

Jural
Jural
6 years ago
Reply to  jy2

Darn, I wish we could have voted on this… Maybe LoW models who aren’t Super heavies or Gargantuans can be fielded as either LoW or as HQ’s? Or just change the limit from LoW to SH/GC?

Mike
Mike
6 years ago
Reply to  jy2

I thought it was strictly referring to superheavies, because I’ve seen some lists run with both a SH and character lord of war a few times.

jy2
jy2
6 years ago
Reply to  jy2

Oops….my bad. The 0-1 restriction is on LoW Super-heavies/Gargants only.

Jural
Jural
6 years ago
Reply to  jy2

Thumbs up for that.

Novastar
Novastar
6 years ago
Reply to  Jural

It’s on super heavier or gargantuan

Jural
Jural
6 years ago

It is so hard to consider rules for Gargantuans in a world where a Hierodule, a Wraithknight, and the new Tau’nar are all “Gargantuans”… just what the hell GW/FW?

jy2
jy2
6 years ago
Reply to  Jural

Unfortunately, it’s called Codex Creep. Sucks to have the old stuff.

Jural
Jural
6 years ago
Reply to  jy2

True dat

AbusePuppy
AbusePuppy
6 years ago
Reply to  jy2

Nah, Tyranid GCs have always sucked, that’s nothing new. They sucked in 4E, they sucked in 5E, and they have continued sucking all through 6th and 7th.

It’s comforting to have some consistency, innit?

Jural
Jural
6 years ago
Reply to  AbusePuppy

Yeah, but there weren’t other “mid level” Gargantuan type things around either, right? Back when 7th launched you could compare the Hierodule to a RipTide and a Wraithknight, maybe a Dreadknight and C’Tan… but while they were overcosted the benefits of the GC status gave them some decent points…

Now there are so many units to compare them too, all of which are about half their cost, have similar firepower, better toughness, and synergize with their army better.

jy2
jy2
6 years ago
Reply to  AbusePuppy

That’s not true AP.

The bio-titan was awesome back in 5th and was much feared. But that was back when D “only” caused Instant Death and gargants/SH’s couldn’t be locked in combat. Nowadays (before the modification to the current D), the bio-titan would just get one-shotted by a lucky D or killed in 1 turn by a gravstar.

AbusePuppy
AbusePuppy
6 years ago
Reply to  jy2

The Heirophant was only available in Apocalypse during 5th, and balance in Apoc is wonky to start with. With the weakest save of any superheavy (6++) it was actually pretty likely to just get blasted by Rending, Railguns and Lascannons, as it would never have a cover save (needing 50% obscurement) and could not benefit from psychic powers.

The Heirophant wasn’t awful the same way the others were, but this was before Stomp and, as you pointed out, when GCs couldn’t be locked in combat and weren’t immune to most special rules, so it wasn’t a blowout, either.

Bigpig
Bigpig
6 years ago

I think the vote on the Tau suit is premature and you need to consider pulling it from the poll before you get too far along. As it stands without a codex yet and no real experience playing with or against it I cannot make an educated vote. For all I know this will be a broke as fuck 3 GC unit that will suck the life out of competitive play or it could be a waste of time. We just don’t know.

So instead we now end up with tau players voting for it because it is theirs, including a bunch of tau players who never set foot in an itc event, and eldar players who hole this means they will be one step closer to using 2 wraithknight in a double cad.

Votes should be educated and based on what is best for the competitive community, not based on what gives the voters the most advantage. Without sufficient information that’s what we are left with as our motivations. We see what happens in the real world when people vote strictly for what best lines their pockets. I really think you should consider pulling this and including it in the next vote.

jy2
jy2
6 years ago
Reply to  Bigpig

If only Jaws of the World Wolf was still a thing….

jy2
jy2
6 years ago
Reply to  Bigpig

Oh wait….it is. It just sucks now.

AbusePuppy
AbusePuppy
6 years ago
Reply to  Bigpig

Sinking 1000pts into three models that have to remain in 2″ coherency, are weak in melee (because you’ll usually get at least two turns without Stomps) and are relatively short-ranged is not going to create a Tau uber-list. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Bigpig
Bigpig
6 years ago
Reply to  AbusePuppy

You need to reread my post. You clearly miss the point

AbusePuppy
AbusePuppy
6 years ago
Reply to  Bigpig

You need to reread the rules for the Stormsurge.

bigpig
bigpig
6 years ago
Reply to  AbusePuppy

Arrogant little fella aren’t you. Again, you miss the point. Not surprised based on what I normally read from you and your running around this thread posting your opinion. You’re almost treating this like one your “tactics” articles where you without fail go in the comments and try to argue with anyone who gives an opinion contrary to yours. Makes dialogue difficult.

Let me clarify for you;

My comment has nothing to do with the perceived power level or balance one, two, or three Stormsurges. I am not saying the Stormsurge is OP. I am not saying it is weak. I am not saying it is just right. I am saying that without knowing what the codex will bring and how that will interact with the Stormsurge rules present one cannot make a fully informed vote on topic. Do you know all the formation rules? Do you know the support system rules? Do you even know what marker lights will do? You can speculate based on what they did on the last codex or some rumor/white dwarf editorial, but won’t know for certain until the codex is out.

It’s not about whether a Tau “uber list” will be created. It’s about the process and asking people to vote without enough information. The LACK of knowledge probably will play towards more “no” votes.

Did that help you? Sorry to burst your bubble…..

AbusePuppy
AbusePuppy
6 years ago
Reply to  AbusePuppy

I didn’t miss your point, I just think your point is meaningless.

Just because we don’t know every single rule and permutation it has doesn’t mean we can’t judge the majority of its strength. It was pretty easy to assess Imperial Knights when they were previewed, and Militarum Tempestus, and all the other units. While the specifics of exactly what the rest of a Tau list may affect the _viability_ of the unit, they won’t change anything about its raw statline or abilities.

Do you really think it’s likely that Markerlights are going to fundamentally change after all this time? They’ve been doing the same thing since 3E. Likewise, look at the 6E -> 7E changes made in the Eldar and SM codices- sure, there were lots of important things added and altered, but none of them were in the generic unit upgrades (i.e. Support Systems.)

So sure, you can sit off there in “IT’S IMPOSSIBLE TO KNOW ANYTHING” land, but the rest of us are gonna go ahead and make choices based on the knowledge we have. And if there is a Support System that gives the unit Ignores Cover and a 2++ save for 15pts? Guess what, we can change our minds later! That’s the great thing about having a human brain, you can alter your opinions on a subject when the available information changes.

Tiberius183
Tiberius183
6 years ago
Reply to  Bigpig

Unnecessary. The rules for it are already out and official. The only thing that would change in the new codex is what support systems it can and can’t take (already betting it won’t be able to take shield generators).

Jural
Jural
6 years ago
Reply to  Tiberius183

The formations might have a huge impact, or some wargear/special rule changes which haven’t come to light yet.

I haven’t heard any such rumors, but there is a nonzero chance that the unit of Stormsurges will get an unforeseeable bump we have no line of sight to when the codex drops.

Now I think it’s really unlikely… really unlikely! So I voted to allow the 3 in one unit with similar thinking to AP. But there is a (slight) chance I’m kicking myself when the codex drops.

Codi
Codi
6 years ago
Reply to  Bigpig

The question needed to be asked and I appreciate that they did.

OverwatchCNC
6 years ago

RAW!!!!!!!!!!!

Bellerah
Bellerah
6 years ago

I voted to remove all rules, as rules are just a method to oppress. In the spirit of GW and AoS, We should just be able to bring anything we want and use any rules we see fit points and balance be damned. DOWN with rules!!!

I also voted…

Bellerah
Bellerah
6 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

unbounded fun for all!!

Jural
Jural
6 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

Nonsense, take away point values and then you have anarchy… or just use the wraithknight point scale on a handful of powerful units around the game and leave the rest untouched…

Hotsauceman1
Hotsauceman1
6 years ago

I love that the itc is becoming more inclusive.
After reading about rumored corsairs, I wanna start them, so I’m happy fw lists are allowed.
The r varna is my favorite model, so I’m happy.
Reece, just keep crazy in check

Codi
Codi
6 years ago
Reply to  Hotsauceman1

What find interesting is that the ITC is becoming more inclusive, but other groups that used to say “play whatever you want” are becoming more restrictive.

Maybe one day they will meet in the middle, and we will all be playing the same game.

Jural
Jural
6 years ago
Reply to  Codi

This edition clearly needs some restrictions to allow for tournament play. Even if it’s only “no unbound”…

Greg
Greg
6 years ago

Notwithstanding Forgeworld’s recent email responses, there are a number of free to download PDF rules that do not have the “Experimental Rules” stamp. The Cerastus Knights do not have printed (see: found in a rule book) rules for 40k. The Stormblade’s PDF rules are the most current rules, as the IA book rules are outdated (I also confirmed this with FW via email). I’m sure there are more examples. I personally like the idea of opening up the use of models that have been sitting without official rules for ages, but it seems fairly clear to me that the experimental classification was, at least originally, intended to denote rules that were not official and subject to change. It is one thing to have official rules change between editions or codexes. It is a tad different to have experimental rules change once they are officially published. I don’t think it’s game breaking, but my 2c.

jy2
jy2
6 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

Gosh. Why the hell is FW so damned lazy! All they need do is to remove the experimental tags from some of the pdf’s and then they won’t have to deal with the constant nagging from their customers. Moreover, they’ll see a shit-load more sales from some of their models. Sometimes, I just can’t believe the iodicy in some of these companies.

Hotsauceman1
Hotsauceman1
6 years ago
Reply to  jy2

Welcome to Corporate…..Uk

Mike
Mike
6 years ago

I can’t support the tau gargantuan unit. I don’t particularly care if the actual unit is too good or not (actually I think the storm surge is priced pretty accurately for what it does,) but I care that the game might become all about that single 720/1080 point unit. That’s very similar to having a single 24 wound super heavy that could actually degrade as it takes wounds. (Albeit it’s highly likely the storm surges will musical chairs their wounded brethren to the back when possible, so they might not degrade in firepower until the last few wounds.)

AbusePuppy
AbusePuppy
6 years ago
Reply to  Mike

If the Stormsurge isn’t good, why would the game “become all about it”, as you say?

W
W
6 years ago

My pet peeves with the ITC format are the changes to core rules that don’t need to be changed, like: deploying Fortifications before the rest of your army. Breaks with the core rule book and it’s unecessary.
Adding the +1 to Seize and VP for destroying an enemy super-heavy LoW. Also an unecessary change to the core rules.

I understand your changes to Invisibility, ranged D, limiting sources and the number of LoWs. I don’t agree with them, but I understand why they’re implemented. But I really don’t understand why the above things are changed. It’s just confusing and weird.

Fraktalen
Fraktalen
6 years ago
Reply to  W

+1

C-Stock
C-Stock
6 years ago
Reply to  W

+2

If my Lynx gives up VPs for losing hull points then people’s death stars that are way more powerful than my Lynx sure should.

WrentheFaceless
WrentheFaceless
6 years ago
Reply to  W

They’re rules from Escalation, they didnt pull them out of thin air.

AbusePuppy
AbusePuppy
6 years ago

Yes, but they are specifically only applied to the Escalation missions as per GW’s FAQ; ITC choosing to use them in all missions feels like a weird choice (and ditto on fortifications.)

W
W
6 years ago

Yeah, but as AbusePuppy said they’re for Escalation missions, not regular 40k. There is no reason to implement random rules from Escalation, just like you wouldn’t include Apocalypse formations, Planetstrike, etc. (I’m tempted to say Death from the Skies but I don’t know the wording in that book and have seen people use the Aerial Aces upgrades in regular 40k)

It’s just spreading confusion as there are a lot of players now who believe that this is a part of standard 40k, when it’s just a strange and unnecessary house ruling.

W
W
6 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

Perhaps house rule was the wrong term, but it’s still implementing a rule from a non-standard expansion. As I don’t own the Escalation book myself I don’t know if it’s stated to be for Escalation missions or not, but if it is, how does it it differ from allowing some armies to bring Apocalypse Formations to give them a needed boost?
I think it’s great that you guys have a voting system and listen to the community, even when I end up disagreeing with the results, but I think a lot of people here have immediately thought of the Wraithknight and how they don’t like it. I think you’d see more of the sub-par super-heavies (like pretty much every IG tank) if they didn’t get even more penalized for bringing them.

You didnt adress the Fortification deployment though; why do the ITC missions tell us to deploy them before the armies when the rule book tells us to deploy them at the same time? Especially with the powerful fortifications being banned in the ITC format, I really struggle to see why you’ve changed this. Surely this must pass as a house rule 😉

BBF
BBF
6 years ago
Reply to  W

+1

Sam
Sam
6 years ago
Reply to  BBF

I think the escalation rules can be removed if the cover rules for gargantuan creatures are changed to 25%. Generally GC don’t have an easy time of claiming vps regardless but are extremely durable. So it’s an adjustment that makes sense. These are two questions that should be in the next vote.

Tiberius183
Tiberius183
6 years ago

Question: will the Stormsurge be added to the approved LoWs list soon, or will you be waiting for the codex to drop?

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