First Look: 7th ed Space Marines Codex

Space-Marines-Cover

Abuse Puppy Brings us his first thoughts on the Space Marine Codex! Be sure to check out the Tactics Corner for more great reviews!

The new book is an absolute brick of fluff and other text, which is definitely nice to see (especially compared to the pre-Eldar codices of 7th edition, which were decidedly anemic in terms of fluff), so I’m not even gonna try to touch on all of that stuff. Suffice to say that it is a very big book with a lot of stuff in it and that’s a good thing.

The real thing you’re here for, though, is the rules. Since this isn’t a full codex review, I’m not gonna try and do a complete analysis of things- these are just my thoughts on what stuff in the book is like overall.

Chris.SpaceMarines6

Gladius Detachment

The Gladius is, for the most part, middling-decent (but we’ll come back to that one part in a sec here); ObSec for all of the units in the Core selection is a fairly alright thing, as is getting access to all of the Doctrines (and Tactical an extra time.) The Auxillary detachments are actually surprisingly limiting; while some of them are quite cheap, most involve combinations of multiple different units and can be very awkward. We’ll touch on the formations themselves in their own section, but unlike Necrons, Eldar, and Daemonkin, SM do not have any “just bring a specific unit” choices in the Gladius- you HAVE to bring along one of the formations, and like other unique detachments the Gladius denies you the use of any of the Forge World units, which can be awkward.

However, let’s point out that one little thing we skipped earlier: the Battle Company. Consisting of two Demi-Companies (the core choice) but not actually a formation, it would normally be illegal for inclusion under ITC army guidelines, but Reece and Co. have decided to allow it anyways because… well, I don’t know why, but they have. So every squad in your company can get a free transport (though they still have to pay for any upgrades to it, such as weapon swaps) giving you a minimum of twenty ObSec units that the enemy has to deal with. Does that sound like bullshit? Because it is. It’s bullshit in the same category as Scatter Bikes, and you can expect to see it pretty regularly at tournaments. Get your 5th Edition pants back on and brush up on the Tank Shock rules, ’cause the Battle Company is gonna be all over the place.

Doctrines

Doctrines are a port from the 6E codex; they’re similar to the old Ultramarines tactic, but have been pared down and other chapters can also get access to them (though Ultras are still the best at it.) There are three Doctrines- Tactical, Assault, and Devastator, with each benefiting the appropriate type of unit a bit extra. Tactical Doctrine is simply better than the others- it allows rerolls of ‘1’ to-hit in the shooting and assault phases, with Tactical Marines getting to reroll all misses with it. Assault Doctrine is for assault phase only but otherwise the same, with ASM, Bikes, and other FA units getting the “maxed” benefit of it. Devastator Doctrine is likewise shooting only, with Devs/Dev Cents getting the max benefit.

Doctrines have to be enacted at the start of the turn and only work on your turn, but as army-wide buffs they are fairly solid (on par with Skitarii Doctrinas and Mechanicus Canticles), especially since they can take effect in multiple phases of the game. It’s possible to get more than one of a Doctrine that you can use, though, especially via formations and characters.

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Chapter Tactics

Chapter Tactics are very similar to before, with a few small additions and updates. The book clarifies that units of mixed types (a White Scar model joined to a Black Templar unit, for example) are “counted” as being neither type- however, as most Tactics give benefits to models, not units, this very rarely matters. It does, however, give us some precedent as potentially how to apply other “mixed units” for other purposes in the game, the first one yet. How TOs will treat it, however, remains to be seen.

White Scars are still the big winner in most respects; Hit and Run for everyone (even Terminators/etc) and Skilled Rider (rather than an identical-but-different version) for all bikes is absolutely huge. Pure WS units can also reroll their Run distances, and they still get +1Str on HoW hits. Nothing but improvements here. Imperial Fists are also identical but now can use Bolter Drill with special ammo, which is a nice little gimme. Black Templars trade their bonuses in a challenge for instead gaining Rage/Counterattack if they take shooting casualties in a turn- a cute trick against Overwatch, pre-assault shooting, and your own Plasma accidentally exploding. Iron Hands can add +1 to FNP rolls if they get it from somewhere else, which can stack up pretty quickly; 4+, 3+, or even 2+ are possible even without enemy shenanigans. Salamaders get FNP(4+) against flamers rather than rerolling saves, which generally works out a bit better, and otherwise keep their other bonuses. Raven Guard are completely different now; they get Shrouded on the first turn if they aren’t a vehicle/in a vehicle and add +1 to rolls to see if it’s Night Fighting. They can also use Jump Packs in both phases and reroll Hammer of Wrath hits with them. Ultramarines get all three Doctrines once per game in addition to any other uses you’d get of them.

So most of the Tactics got slightly better all in all; White Scars are still very strong, Iron Hands are generically useful, Fists have amazing Devastators, and Ultras get pretty good one-shot abilities. WS will probably remain the premiere choice for armies, but expect to see a small increase in the use of others (if only because more non-Bike armies will be around.)

Alright, now for the meat of things. It’s a big codex, so we’re gonna try and do this relatively quickly. Buckle those seatbelts, kiddos.

HQ Units

Sicarius is cheaper and adds +1 to Reserves rather than rerolling Seize. He only hands out his Leadership if he’s your warlord now. Still not worth it, but closer to being not an embarrassment.

Tigurius is the same but now Storm of Fire is even better. He’s a total beast.

Cassius is still not very helpful and has the worst warlord trait.

Telion is an HQ and at 50pts, he’s the cheapest of them. He can only join Scouts, but he does get Storm of Fire for a trait which is quite good.

Chronus is also an HQ and comes with any one vehicle (but not Drop Pods/Speeders) that gets BS5, IWND, and ignores Stunned/Shaken. If it gets killed he disembarks as a two-wound IC. Interesting guy, though none of the SM tanks are so good you’re biting at the bit to improve them.

Vulkhan is identical, but has FNP as a fixed warlord trait.

Shrike is a fucking mess. He is not allowed to join anything but Jump Infantry squads before the game… but due to the GW FAQ, he can’t join any of them (they don’t have Infiltrate and he does), meaning he has to stand around like a big, dumb idiot with a moron face.

Lysander is essentially the same, and has FNP as a fixed trait. Still really pricey, but a beater.

Pedro is slightly cheaper I believe? Otherwise pretty much the same. Oh, neat, he gets a 2+ and his +1A aura applies to himself.

Emperor’s Champ is S6 AP2 MC’d all the time and in challenges gets to reroll misses with 6s causing ID. Better, but still probably a bit more than you really want to pay.

Captains get an Orbital Strike now. Otherwise the same. No they don’t. Still no reason to take one other than being forced to.

Librarians get access to all disciplines, including Divination. Fuck you, SW and BA psykers, we’re just better than you!

Master of the Forge is just the Techmarine now, with BS5 and W2 and everything. Still can get Conversion Beamer and all that other stuff. Servitors are still derps.

Chaplains are identical. Note that one is required (along with the Captain) to make a Battle Company.

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Troop Units

Tacticals are pretty similar, but like all squads they have access to the Grav Cannon/Grav Amp pair for their heavy choice. At 35pts it’s very pricey, but it does give you something to do when spilling out of a Drop Pod.

Scouts are WS/BS4 now. Huh, wow. No price increase or anything, either. Makes them into some very, very efficient scoring units, especially with the formation. Also makes paying for Sniper/Missile/HB a lot more attractive.

Crusader Squads get the same buffs as Tacticals/Scouts, but are otherwise unchanged. Still just better than a Tactical unit, unless you’re Combat Squadding. Heavy/Special in a 5man is nothing to sneeze at.

Fast Attack Units

Rhinos and Razorbacks are the same but available as FA choices, along with the Drop Pod, just as we expected. Note that the Razor is 55pts base with 20pts for the gun upgrades (TLLas, TLHF, LasTLPlas) which makes the Battle Company even more efficient.

Assault Squads come as just Tacticals with BP/CCW now and can take either a transport or Jump Packs (paying 3pts per on the latter.) Odd way of doing it, but more functional than the previous method.

Scout Bikes benefit from the Scout WS/BS adjustments and a 5pt drop on the Locator Beacon, which was their main purpose. Seem okay.

Bikes can be taken as troops still and don’t require a Captain/Chapter Master- it can be ANY character on a bike, basically. Also no more 5man minimum. Not sure whether min-sized squads with double-special and an Attack Bike is the way to go, or if you want a bit more resilience.

Attack Bikes are still a thing. Ayup.

Land Speeder Storms get BS4 but are still cheap (40pts!) They can carry Telion if there’s room, but there’s only room for five so rarely gonna happen. Cerberus Launcher is now S4, so can actually do some damage.

Land Speeders came down 5pts, as did bolting on an extra weapon (except the Cyclone/AC I believe?) If you have three of them you can move an extra 6″ when going Flat Out, wheee.

Stormtalons get cheaper gun upgrades (115 for the Stormhammer, still your go-to I think) and move further Flat Out as well as getting +1 Jink when Hovering. Protip: Don’t go into Hover mode unless you need it to win the game, you’ll probably die. Unlike other vehicles, they and the Stormtalon can’t come in squads.

ArmageddonULtras_WIP

Elites Units

Command Squad are an Elite unit, as with other codices. Still can get five specials and an Apothecary (or Bikes if you want.)

Honor Guard are also Elites, and unchanged. Not needing a Chapter Master to unlock them is a bit of a big deal and really gives them a chance to shine as a cheap counterassault unit. We’ll see how they do overall.

Assault Centurions can “steal” a pod now, but I think they’re still pretty mediocre. Good at killing superheavies, but serious why do they not have Veterans inside these things?

Vanguard Vets are 19pts, but get a 10pt discount on melee weapons- so 5pts for a Power Maul or Axe. That’s pretty rad.

Sternguard are 22pts still, with the only real change being the addition of Grav Cannons. Heavy Flamers are still to rare and precious to give to anyone else, because metal tins full of gasoline are a forgotten technology.

Dreadnoughts are four attacks base now, so they’re actually kinda scary-ish in a fight, and youcan take them in squadrons. Unlike every other unit in the book, though, there is no benefit to doing so.

Ironclads and Venerable also got more attacks. Only Ironclad seems like it has any chance of surviving to use them, though.

Legion of the Damned can’t take Grav Gun/Cannon, but are still really good. Ignores Cover is a fantastic rule.

Terminators of both types are 35pts per body, with +10pts for TH/SS. I don’t think this is even close to enough to make them good, but it’s at least a step in the right direction and may herald something nice for Dark Angels.

Heavy Support and Lord of War Units

Devs get the new Grav, a very helpful upgrade if you’re looking for a mech or Drop army, and also get the Armorium Cherub for 5pts, which lets you reroll a to-hit roll once.

Centurion Devs are slightly cheaper, but Grav is slightly more expensive. Works out the same in the end.

Thunderfires got a stealth buff when the Techmarine got better (+1BS/W) and to boot can be taken in squads now. If you get three, you can be BS6! Three TFCs with a Librarian attached are murder for anything on foot.

The basic Predator is still too expensive, but AutoLas and TriLas are fine. Gaining Tank/Monster Hunter with three of them is a bit of hilarious overkill, but maybe not completely awful? Nah, it probably is.

Whirlwinds being in squads is actually very useful (so you aren’t burning all your HS slots on them) and Pinning/Shred with a unit of three is interesting, but the TFC is kinda just better.

Vindicators are still the same jank… but with three of them, if they all shoot it’s a 10″ blast with Ignores Cover. Oh jeez. However, all three of them do need to be able to shoot for that to work, so no Stunned/Shaken, you need to be in range, have to have the right facing, etc. It’s brutal if it works, but it’s gonna be tricky to get it to work. Note that you can use the squadron rules to your advantage to give you a larger AV13 facing on your sides, at least until you are getting ready to shoot.

Hunters still don’t have Intercept, so pretty mediocre as AA. Squads of three can reroll misses with the “chase” missiles, which is amusing but pretty meh.

Stalkers also have Intercept and fire three TL shots at one target or three regular shots at two different targets. A squad gives them Ignores Cover. Also note that because of how their fire-splitting works, you can shoot four things with a full squad of them (all three shoot one target, each splits to a different one.) Seem a lot more viable than the Hunter, but they are competing with Hyperios Platforms, which are dirt cheap.

Stormraven is identical. So are the Land Raiders. Yawn.

Calgar is 275, can pick any SM warlord trait, and can use one Doctrine an extra time. His Gauntlets strike at initiative now, which is pretty brutal, and he can trade his regular armor for Terminator that doesn’t stop him from Sweeping (though he loses his grenades in the process.) However, and this is a big one- you can’t choose to pass/fail morale for the army with him anymore, so he’s trying to be more of a combat beast and less of a utility guy. I don’t think it works in his favor overall.

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Formations

The Demi-Company is the big one. A Chappy or Captain (or their named versions), three Tacticals, an Assault/Bike/Attack Bike/Speeder/Assault Cent squad, a Dev or Dev Cent squad, and optional Dreadnought and Command Squads. Everything gets ObSec and you can use a tactical Doctrine once per game regardless of how many Demi-Companies you have. It’s okay, but the Battle Company makes it insane. It’s a lot of ObSec bodies that will be annoying to get rid of, which in ITC can be a very real problem.

Anti-Air Defense Force is two or more Stalkers (in one unit) and one or more Hunters. It gives you +1BS if your Hunter hits with its missile on an air target. Eh, it’s a cheap way to bring some AA in I suppose.

1st Company Strike Force is 3-5 units of Vets or Terminators and gives them all Fear, Fearless, and anything within 12″ of three or more units of them has -2Ld. You can also pick one target for them to have Preferred Enemy against. Not awful, but not all that interesting from a competitive perspective.

Strike Force Ultra is basically too many big, expensive models embarked on other big, expensive models. They get to fire extra and do more punchy and they’re the BEST GUYS in the WHOLE IMPERIUM! Pow pow, pew pew! Bam! Ker-blooie! Yeah. Just hope that your opponent doesn’t bring… well, anything, really.

Reclusiam Command Squad is a Chaplain and his buddy team in a tiny little clown car. They give out an aura that won’t matter because the other player shot your AV11 transport down and then murdered the guys inside to deny you bonuses.

10th Company Task force is 3-5 units of Scouts or Scout Bikes and an optional Telion; it gives Stealth to all your units so long as they Infiltrate, until they move/shoot/etc. It also gives them Precision Shots for the first turn of the game. I’d call it mediocre, but it’s very cheap as a way to fill out a Gladius Strike Force and Scouts are a relatively okay unit now, so it goes up a c ouple notches.

Stormwing is the same. Need some airplanes? This lets you bring them along.

Centurion Siegebreakers are a lot of melee models that… probably you don’t have enough Drop Pods for. And that are kinda slow. And whose special rule does vague extra wounds when they kill a transport. It’s pretty hard to get excited about.

Land Raider Spearhead is three Raiders of any type and they get to pretend to be superheavies (i.e. ignore everything but Explodes) as long as they’re within 6″ of each other. They can also reroll wounds/pens against superheavies and GCs. I guess if you want to bring LRs, but you spent all your HS slots on actual good units like Thunderfires?

Librarius Conclave is 3-5 Librarians, potentially including Tiggy. When within 12″ of each other, you can have them all “pool up” their powers and let any one guy cast for them all as well as get a +1 bonus to harvesting Warp Charge for each guy beyond the initial one (so potentially a 2+.) They get Maelific, Telepathy, and Divination. You can preserve whoever is the important one by letting the chumps take Perils for him. You can reduce chances of Perils and maximize dice by casting on super-low numbers. Yeah. This formation is, shall we say, quite good.

Armored Task Force is a Techmarine, 0-3 TFC units, and 3-5 units of any of the gun tanks (Pred, Vindi, Whirlwind), with optional Chronus. You get +1 to repair them and ignore Shaken/Stunned when within 6″ of any kind of Techmarine (including the gunners.) Rather pricey in most cases, but pretty solid.

Suppression Force is a Land Speeder unit and a unit of at least two Whirlwinds; if the Land Speeder is within 18″ of something (and didn’t move Flat Out), you can reroll misses with the Whirlwinds and ignore range to the target. Again, it’s cheap, but feels rather shoddy.

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Warlord Traits and Relics

The Warlord traits are better, though that’s not saying a lot since before it was arguably one of the worst in the game (down there with Tyranids.) Angel of Death still gives Fear, but on 3d6! Rarr, most units are still immune and don’t care! Imperium’s Sword gives FC to the warlord and unit, which is an okay buff. Iron Resolve gives FNP, which is pretty garbage for a trait overall. Storm of Fire gives one unit within 12″ Rending with its shooting attacks, which is REALLY good. Rites of War lets you share your Leadership with your detachment, which is reasonable but not huge when you already have ATSKNF. Champion of Humanity lets you reroll Leadership within 12″ of the warlord for ALL Imperial units, which is significantly better- rerolling Ld8/9 is far better than using Ld10. It’s probably still a worse table than Strategic (as most everything is), but at least most of them are useable now and actually do something.

The Relics are the same, but you are now definitively limited to carrying only one (whereas before it was a bit arguable.) Eternal Shield is great, Burning Blade is good, Teeth of Terra and Primarch’s Wrath are okay, Armor Indomitus is stinky garbage.

Overall Thoughts

The SM book changed surprisingly few things, but we did see bumps to a number of weaker units, which is good. There’s still more than a few stinkers in teh codex, but no longer are they so egregious. You’ll see a lot more diverse SM armies now, especially in terms of the Chapter Tactics people use. Squads of units are very relevant in a few cases (TFCs, Vindicators, Stalkers) and mostly otherwise ignorable, but they’re a cute incentive to make folks buy more.

The Gladius is gonna be a HUGE thing for the competitive scene and in casual games it’s… just really unfair. It’s an amazing amount of bodies and tanks to try and drag down, as even before SM could be a right pain to actually get rid of all of their stuff. With objectives being so critical in ITC (especially because of new Maelstrom increases), expect to see a lot of SM at the top tables. This isn’t actually a change for anyone familiar with big tournaments, but maybe this time around folks will actually recognize how strong the SM book is.

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About abusepuppy

AbusePuppy is the one who has been ruining 40K for everyone this whole time. He is also searching for the six-fingered man and is one of the three people who know the secret recipe for coke (not the soda, the illegal drug.)

114 Responses to “First Look: 7th ed Space Marines Codex”

  1. WestRider June 16, 2015 3:06 am
    #

    A couple of corrections. Don’t really change the overall picture, but still:
    – Orbital Barrage is Chapter Master only. It’s easy to miss the little note, tho.
    – Pedro’s Oath of Rynn is no longer worded to exclude himself from the benefits, so he got a +1A stealth buff
    – The Suppression Force buff targets a Unit within 18″ of the Speeder, not 12″. Makes it a little more likely to happen more than once. I’ll probably use it occasionally, but more because I have three WW and way too many Speeders, but only one TFC than any other reason 😛
    – The Armour Indomitus actually got worse. For some reason, GW thought that one, of all the Relics, was the overpowered one. It lost Relentless.

    • abusepuppy June 16, 2015 2:18 pm
      #

      Huh, yeah, I did miss that on the Barrage. Blargh, guess there’s still no reason to bother with a Captain.

      Will fix that and the Suppression Force.

  2. MidnightSun June 16, 2015 3:09 am
    #

    Thanks for the write-up, Puppy.

    Couple of small things to pick up on – I believe Sternguard used to be 25pts per model and are now 22pts, which is a nice discount. Sicarius also picked up Furious Charge for himself, but given that he’s still Plasma Pistol/Power Sword is shitty as you say. Captains have to upgrade to Chapter Masters to get the Orbital Strike. Tigurius does still re-roll failed Psychic Tests – he’s literally the exact same guy as last time, but with a much improved Warlord Trait. And can cast on 2+ re-rollable in a Conclave. With powers from three or more tables. I think the head Librarian in the Conclave can only cast each power once even if all the Librarians have seperate instances of it, which is unfortunate, but if they all take seperate disciplines it’s not an issue.

    One thing that struck me was a Demi-Company (I’d love to use the Battle Company but points restrictions), Kantor and as many Sternguard as you can fit into the First Company Strikeforce. The entire army except Kantor himself and the Sternguard’s transports have Objective Secured, and the Sternguard are Fearless, PE against a single unit, Bolter Drill, A3 near Kantor and the cutesy -2 Ld bubble (which is easier to get than I first thought it would be because Combat Squads). It’s really awkward to work into a list, but I love the concept.

    I think there’s some way you can argue Shrike does work, since his rule has him join Jump Infantry pre-deployment whereas most Independant Characters join units during deployment, but on the other hand it reads more like a restriction than an exception since it says ‘Before deployment Shrike can ONLY join Jump Infantry’. Personally, I’m letting it work that way since otherwise perfectly innocent Raven Guard players have been shafted yet again, but that’s more a personal sympathy note than anything with rules grounding.

    • westrider June 16, 2015 6:54 am
      #

      SternGuard were 22 Points before, they just paid an extra 10 on the base cost for the Veteran Sergeant, even tho his profile was exactly the same as everyone else’s.

    • abusepuppy June 16, 2015 2:28 pm
      #

      Did Sicarius not have FC before? Shows how often I saw that guy on the table.

      Forgot Tiggy’s reroll was buried in his staff. Fixed.

      The Conclave casts off asingle psyker, so still only one use of each power, yeah.

      Being able to take named guys in the Demi-Company is nice, definitely. I don’t talk much on the 1st Company in the article, but Sternguard/Vanguard are not awful, so you could do some cute stuff with ’em.

      Shrike’s ability is a _restriction_ (“can ONLY join units of…”), not a permission. I do feel bad for RG, though, all of the other Tactics are pretty decent and theirs is quite garbage. In a casual game I’d happily let someone do it, but by the rules…

      • HacksawBuchanan June 18, 2015 12:35 pm
        #

        Why can’t it be both a restriction and a permission? The word ‘only’ modifies the permission given by ‘can’, but it doesn’t negate that permission.

        After the FAQ clarifying infiltrating ICs joining units and vice versa, this clause would have no meaning as most people are interpeting it. Yet it was still included. I think the rule is poorly written and people are understanding the RAW incorrectly.

      • Punchymango June 22, 2015 8:16 am
        #

        For some reason I find it weirdly hilarious that GW managed to boost all the other chapter tactics up to be usable-ish and then got to Raven Guard and said “whatever, fuck those guys.” Again.

  3. pascalnz June 16, 2015 3:34 am
    #

    a ssicarian tank might be good with chronos.

    But the thing you missed that makes the Libraries conclave amazing?? take them as white scars and fling them into any imperial unit you like for hit and run:D

    • abusepuppy June 16, 2015 2:29 pm
      #

      Chronus can’t ride in a Sicaran, sadly. Would be pretty badass, though.

      HnR for White Scars is basically what makes them the best. Selectively being able to end combats is huge.

  4. Ghost Valley June 16, 2015 3:37 am
    #

    Nice review.

    The las/Missile centurions got a steep drop. With Omniscope they are 250 rather than 290. Gravs are still better but with Imperial Fist chapter tactics the las/Missile combo is worth considering.

    • abusepuppy June 16, 2015 2:30 pm
      #

      Las/Missile definitely improves a lot, yeah. I’m not sure how much call there is for it, as Grav is still better against most things you care about, but there’s at least some incentive to take it now.

  5. Peter Almo June 16, 2015 5:11 am
    #

    “Sternguard are 22pts still, with the only real change being the addition of Grav Cannons. Heavy Flamers are still to rare and precious to give to anyone else, because metal tins full of gasoline are a forgotten technology.”

    This had me cracking up, and it’s just very true.

    “Command Squad are an Elite unit, as with other codices. Still can get five specials and an Apothecary (or Bikes if you want.)”

    This to me is actually the biggest change, being able to run 3 in a CAD without any HQ tax, all on bikes with grav and FnP, this is very big imo, especially with white scars, but even with iron hand, 4+ FnP.

    • Kartr June 16, 2015 7:02 am
      #

      Not to mention they’re 10 points cheaper now

    • abusepuppy June 16, 2015 2:32 pm
      #

      Yeah, 3x Commands is definitely a thing, although they’re very expensive to run that way- 210pts for five bodies.

      Iron Hands Command Squads are rockin’ now, to be sure.

      • Kartr Kana June 16, 2015 2:40 pm
        #

        215 w/bikes 5x grav and an apothecary 200 if you drop a grav or the apothecary.

  6. John June 16, 2015 5:31 am
    #

    So you are saying my orks and chaos space marines have a chance at glory now?

    • greggles June 16, 2015 9:06 am
      #

      If you play shoota boyz as scouts, yes 🙂

  7. MasterSlowPoke June 16, 2015 6:11 am
    #

    Pedro also has artificer armor now, so that’s a big bonus.

    • abusepuppy June 16, 2015 2:33 pm
      #

      Missed that one, good to know that the _last surviving leader of an entire chapter_ is important enough to give better armor to. Good job, Fistos.

  8. Cowboy June 16, 2015 6:56 am
    #

    The Battle Company is 2 Demi-Companies combined so that means you need to take at least one Auxiliary or do you need to take 2 Auxiliary, one for each Battle Company. I really doubt that people can fit 2 Demi-Companies and 1 Auxiliary in 1850, but they will really have a hard time if each Demi-Company required an Auxiliary to go with it.

    Free Stuff makes the point value disparity between codices even greater. Anyone else see this as an absolutely terrible thing for game balance? How is this kind of stuff fair to BA, and GK?

    • Kartr June 16, 2015 7:24 am
      #

      The Battle Company is not a Formation, it’s a Command Benefit for the Gladius Strike Force that is unlocked when you buy a second core choice with the opposite HQ from the first core choice. Gladius Strike Force requires 1+ Auxiliary, and doesn’t require a second for the Command Benefits.

      Absolute cheapest battle company is as follows:
      Core choices:
      Demi-company 1
      Captain (90)
      3x Tactical squads (210)
      1x Assault Bike (40)
      1x Devastator squad (70)

      Demi-company 2
      Chaplain (90)
      3x Tactical squads (210)
      1x Attack Bike (40)
      1x Devastator squad (70)

      820 points

      Auxiliary choices:
      10th Company Task Force
      3x Scout Squads (165)

      Minimum points for free transports is 985 points.
      Maximum free points from transports is 440 points with this build.

      Keep in mind you can trade the Scout formation for other Auxiliary choices. So after the two Demi-companies you have up to 1030 points to spend on at least one Auxiliary choice, up to 3 Command choices, or other detachments.

    • Kartr June 16, 2015 7:37 am
      #

      Maximum free point build:

      Core choices:
      Core choices:
      Demi-company 1
      Captain (90)
      Command squad (90)
      3x Tactical squads (210)
      1x Assault squad (70)
      1x Devastator squad (70)
      1x Dreadnought (100)

      Demi-company 2
      Chaplain (90)
      Command squad (90)
      3x Tactical squads (210)
      1x Assault squad (70)
      1x Devastator squad (70)
      1x Dreadnought (100)

      1260 points

      Auxiliary choices:
      10th Company Task Force
      3x Scout Squads (165)

      Minimum points for free transports is 1425 points.
      Maximum free points from transports is 730 points with this build.

      This gives you 590 points to spend on at least 1 Auxiliary choice and up to 3 Command choices. Or 425 points to upgrade the unit’s listed. This is also a whopping 30 ObSec units as everything but the 3 Scout squads get it.

      • z3n1st June 16, 2015 9:00 am
        #

        really not looking forward to that being allowed. I like playing a game where both opponents bring the same point total to the table…not too mention everyone else only gets 1 helping of formations but SM get two because MARINES!

        • Reecius
          Reecius June 16, 2015 9:42 am
          #

          To be fair, folks weren’t looking forward to Eldr, either (which you play). We made exceptions for your army, so please keep that in mind when you cast stones at Marine players.

          • Kartr June 16, 2015 9:50 am
            #

            Problem is Reece, the “Battle Company” isn’t a detachment it’s a Command Benefit granted by taking two specific detachments. The change to range D theoretically affects everyone, but this gives a blatant exception to a rule to one specific codex.

            If you want to allow the “Battle Company” all you had to do was make the detachment rulings consistent. If the the detachments in a combi-detachment don’t count towards the three detachments rule, then they shouldn’t count towards the no duplicate detachment rule as well. It’s consistent and allows the “Battle Company” without contorting it into a pseudo detachment and giving Space Marines a clear exception to a rule every other codex is bound by.

          • Reecius
            Reecius June 16, 2015 10:17 am
            #

            You are free to see it as you please, of course, but after lengthy debate, we decided that this was a unique situation.

          • Kartr June 16, 2015 10:58 am
            #

            I’m just disappointed that the consistency, precision, common sense and even handedness of the ITC rulings that I’ve grown accustomed to, over my first year in the hobby, seems to have slipped so obviously and egregiously. Dorn is not pleased.

          • Reecius
            Reecius June 16, 2015 1:58 pm
            #

            Fair enough, but again, we see this as a unique situation. You do not, which is understandable, but at times we have to simply agree to disagree.

          • z3n1st June 16, 2015 11:01 am
            #

            Haven’t played eldar since the new codex dropped buddy, I have fallen under the thrall of the four armed emperor, he has more arms to welcome you into the fold. All hail Zod!

          • Reecius
            Reecius June 16, 2015 1:57 pm
            #

            Four armed emperor?

          • Mike June 16, 2015 11:28 am
            #

            They could easily fit it under the ITC FAQ as renaming the Demi-companies to “captain Demi company” and “chaplain Demi company,” since, for the purposes of taking the full company, you have to take one that has a mandatory captain, and one that has a mandatory chaplain. That makes them 2 very very similar but not identical formations.

          • z3n1st June 16, 2015 2:50 pm
            #

            Genestealer Cult

          • z3n1st June 16, 2015 2:52 pm
            #

            Specifically AM/INQ/ASS as Genestealer Cult, highlander format

        • Kartr June 16, 2015 9:43 am
          #

          It shouldn’t be allowed under ITC because the “Battle Company” is not a detachment it’s a Command Benefit for having two specific detachments. That said, the ITC ninja nerf to combi-detachments is idiotic. The ruling was that a combi-detachments counts as one detachment which means sub-detachments don’t count. If sub-detachments don’t count for determining the number of detachments in your army, why would they count for the no duplicates rule? Either they count or they don’t.

          That said I honestly don’t think the formation is that bad. It’s extremely restrictive as it easily chews up over half your points for a bunch of extremely easy to kill units with no real firepower and if you make it competitive you don’t really have enough points for any additional detachments. Sentinels of Terra are probably the only really competitive double demi-company GSF since they get tank hunters and rely on lots of bolters.

        • Raw Dogger June 16, 2015 10:07 am
          #

          One thing to keep in mind is that while I personally hate that we have to accommodate GW’s marketing strategies into tournament play, I think if someone takes a Battle Company they will be losing at least 2 games in a large tournament if Kill Point missions are a thing.

        • bigpig June 16, 2015 5:19 pm
          #

          Other armies are also bringing extra points. BA can bring 400ish and the War Conclave can bring even more. Seems to be GWs new way of doing things. Technically Khorne Daemonkin are doing it units being summoned as an army wide mechanic and now the inclusion of a 4+ recycle formation. I’d say Nids too, but it takes a long time to get a decent number of useful points from recycled Gaunts :). I suspect other armies will see the same upgrades as they get picked up.

          I don’t know that it is necessarily a good thing for tournament environment? I wouldn’t be averse to a cap on free units purchased iwth your army construction (no limit on summoned units though)

        • z3n1st June 17, 2015 9:01 am
          #

          I also find it odd that in the Space Marine Codex there is debate that the demi-company is actually a formation but if you look at what was leaked for DA, it is obviously a formation like any other.

          • Kartr June 17, 2015 9:15 am
            #

            The demi-company isn’t being questioned, it’s the Battle Company. There’s no Battle Company data slate, just a Command Benefit for the GSF that says that since two Demi-companies equal a full battle company you get your transports for free.

  9. westrider June 16, 2015 6:57 am
    #

    Other than Assault Squads still sucking, basically the only thing I really wish they’d done differently is let Characters in Terminator Armour take Combi-Gravs or Relic Blade/Storm Shield. And the Armour Indomitus should have been buffed, not nerfed 😛

  10. amnesiadidit June 16, 2015 7:14 am
    #

    Oh Raven Guard, GW just toys with you until no other kid wants to play you and ships you off the the island of misfit toys.

    • fluger June 16, 2015 8:00 am
      #

      Seriously! The shrouded thing is better as is the night fight thing, but losing scout means it’s virtually worthless. BLARGH.

      • Kartr June 16, 2015 8:20 am
        #

        Except why would you want Scout on Jump units? You can’t charge if you Scout. In Dawn of War deployment you can conceivably get a fairly easy turn 1 charge if you go second, possibly if you go first and make a 12″ charge. In Vanguard deployment with only 12″ between deployment zones a turn 1 charge is even more likely.

        Scout is only really good for rapid fire units that want to get closer for a powerful double tapping alpha strike.

        • z3n1st June 16, 2015 8:58 am
          #

          umm Vanguard is 24″ from opponent, its 12″ from center to each side

          • Kartr June 16, 2015 9:51 am
            #

            Oh true, seems a lot closer though.

    • Raw Dogger June 16, 2015 10:09 am
      #

      Dude just use the Raptor Chapter Tactics. I think they are a founding based off of the Raven Guard so you’re golden.

  11. Clover362 June 16, 2015 8:37 am
    #

    People keep talking about taking bike in packs of 3 but I think you will want the alabative wounds. A biker with a grav gun costs 37 points which is a lot for something with a 3+ save. I think you want some meat shields.

    • abusepuppy June 16, 2015 2:36 pm
      #

      Yeah, I’m leaning that way as well. We’ll see how popular Bikes are with Tyranids running loose and the Demi-Company around, though.

      • Kartr Kana June 16, 2015 2:44 pm
        #

        3 Bikes with 2x Special and 1 Combi is in the 6th ed codex. “Also no more 5man minimum.” was last edition.

        • abusepuppy June 17, 2015 3:08 am
          #

          In the 6E book, you still needed five bodies minimum to take them as Troops. That is not true in the 7E version.

          • Kartr June 17, 2015 9:15 am
            #

            Gotcha

  12. Bellerah June 16, 2015 9:05 am
    #

    I am a little confused on the ITC ruling to allow this duplicate formation while banning all others. Me having 2 units of flayed ones in my Decurion is too much but the Battle company is the exception…

    • Adam
      Adam (Thediceabide.com) June 16, 2015 9:23 am
      #

      You can have multiple units of flayed ones and death marks as they are not actual formations within the Decurion, you cannot however have 2 Canoptek Harvests, because that would be unfair, unlike getting 10 free Razorbacks. 😉

      • Reecius
        Reecius June 16, 2015 9:44 am
        #

        Judging by tournament results, Necron players are doing juuuuust fine! Plus, they can create new units, too, in Scarabs which is extremely effective and could be perceived to be unfair be someone playing vs. them.

        • Bellerah June 16, 2015 9:55 am
          #

          I would say marines are doing pretty well as well. To the point I would say they would not also need this formation exception. Now clearly as written they were intended to allow the second formation, but that is true for others as well.

          If you were allowing a super formation for Eldar to be duplicated, that would make sense as they need some help.

        • Kartr June 16, 2015 9:56 am
          #

          But he still has a point, Space Marines are being excepted from the “no duplicate formations” interpretation the ITC set. Why not change the ruling to “sub-detachments in a combi-detachment do not count towards the three detachment limit, therefore they are not considered when determining if a detachment has been duplicated.” That allows the “Battle Company” without creating a special exception, and it’s a more consistent ruling (detachments either count or they don’t).

        • Adam
          Adam (Thediceabide.com) June 16, 2015 11:43 am
          #

          I just think they should be restricted to one Demi-company until voted on in a fair manner which would not make special exemptions for space marines to get 10 free tanks. 🙂

          • FTGT Evan June 16, 2015 12:08 pm
            #

            Amen.

            The debate on whether or not a Battle Company is a unique formation or two Demi-companies mashed together I think boils down to:

            Can you take the Battle Company outside a Gladius Strike Force? No. Therefore, it is not a separate formation.

          • Kartr Kana June 16, 2015 1:46 pm
            #

            I agree and I think there should be two questions!

            1) Should detachments contained inside a combi-detachment be counted as detachments for purposes of determining duplication, when they don’t count against the detachment limit?

            2) If detachments inside a combi-detachment do count when determining if a detachment has been duplicated, should the “Battle Company” be considered a detachment of its own rather than a Command Benefit of the Gladius Strike Force?

          • Adam
            Adam (Thediceabide.com) June 16, 2015 2:06 pm
            #

            Well, I think it’s clear that you cannot take a Battle Company outside of a Gladius Strike Force, as the bonus to make them into a Battle Company is a command benefit from the Gladius Strike Force. It isn’t it’s own formation on it’s own, it’s what happens when you take the second Core formation in the Gladius.

          • Kartr Kana June 16, 2015 2:55 pm
            #

            I agree that it’s clear, but this ruling by the ITC declares the Battle Company to be its own detachment/formation. They’re making it a “ghost” detachment to get around their ruling on sub-detachments counting against detachment duplication. Which is my biggest problem with this ruling.

            Instead of taking this opportunity to address whether or not sub-detachments (which don’t count towards the 3 detachment limit) should not count against duplication, they’re fudging the rules. Sub-detachments counting against the 3 detachment limit was a vote, why wasn’t whether they count against duplication?

            However instead of clarifying that via a vote, they first made a unilateral interpretation that goes against consistent interpretation (doesn’t count against 3 detachments, does count against duplication), and now in order to circumvent their own interpretation they are faking a formation that doesn’t actually exist. Its frustrating and disappointing.

          • Adam
            Adam (Thediceabide.com) June 16, 2015 4:34 pm
            #

            Yeah, that’s an annoying good point, so can you actually run 4 Formations with marines because of this ITC ruling?

            I agree with what you’re saying, I find that most of the complication people are griping about with army composition being complicated is totally exacerbated when you start adding on artificial restrictions outside the rules that are inconsistently enforced.

          • Kartr June 17, 2015 9:30 am
            #

            You could run 3 of the same formation with this ruling. 2 demi-companies in the GSF, which ITC considers a unique formation, and a 3rd outside the GSF (since the 2 in the GSF aren’t considered demi-companies anymore you wouldn’t be duplicating) and only have 2/3 detachments for your limit. It’d cost 1395 with min units and no upgrades, but you would get 440 points of free Razorbacks.

            You can’t run 4+ formations any more than Necrons or Eldar can. Technically you do because a combi-detachment is built with formations, but only the highest level detachment counts towards the limit. Which gets back to my point that, for consistency, only the highest level detachment should count towards duplication. That allows the Battle Company without bending the rules past breaking or creating the perception (real or imagined) of favorites.

          • Reecius
            Reecius June 17, 2015 9:49 am
            #

            No, you cannot. For one, it doesn’t fit (everyone seems to forget about the mandatory Auxiliary formation) and for two, the guidelines state that we made an exception to the rule for the Battle Company to be able to be formed by taking two Demi-Companies.

          • Kartr June 18, 2015 4:23 am
            #

            I didn’t forget about the Auxiliary Reece.

            Demi company 1 410 points

            GSF
            Demi company 2 410 points
            Demi company 3 410 points
            10th company task force 165 points
            Total 985

            That’s 1395 points and according to the ITC demi company’s 2 & 3 are a completely new formation (Battle Company 1) and thus don’t count as demi-companies for duplication purposes.

            So I take my two Demi-companies because the exception allows me to as long as I buy an auxiliary to “turn them into a Battle Company.” Now, unless I misunderstood what you said, the Battle Company is considered its own detachment. Which means I have a Battle Company detachment, but no demi-company detachments, so I can use my second detachment slot to buy a demi-company without causing a duplication.

            It’s that not how it would work?

        • shinkaze June 19, 2015 5:29 am
          #

          Your attempts to balance the game are fair for some and unfair for others. Your rationalizations for your choices are suspect.

      • Bellerah June 16, 2015 9:55 am
        #

        Good point, even free those razorbacks are a liability.

  13. Chris June 16, 2015 9:56 am
    #

    or 10 las/plas razorbacks with “it will not die” for 200pts, fairly good deal IMO

    • Kartr June 16, 2015 10:11 am
      #

      TL Assault Cannon all the way! It only snap fires if it moves more than 6″ and is TL with rending.

    • Kian Alden June 16, 2015 10:36 am
      #

      Indeed, I believe that with many of the new formations Iron hands are big winners. The predator squadron and the Lasback spam seem like obvious choices for an Iron Hands Mech list, especially with some techmarines on bikes zipping around fixing everything.

      • KaptinDregzag June 16, 2015 1:28 pm
        #

        Actually, Iron Hands non-dreadnought vehicles no longer have It Will Not Die (the new Chapter Tactics lost that stipulation that all vehicles get it despite not having Chapter Tactics). A slight nerf.

        • Chris June 17, 2015 9:23 am
          #

          umm no….

        • Kartr June 18, 2015 12:27 pm
          #

          Machine Empathy: Iron Hands characters and VEHICLES have the It Will Not Die special rule.

          It’s right there in the chapter tactics section on page 190.

  14. Venkarel June 16, 2015 10:48 am
    #

    As for the Chapter Tactics conferring ITC made the correct choice and ruled that DA, BA, and SW are not Chapters per the SM codex definition of such (yes they are in the fluff, but not the rules. The DA, SW, and BA’s codex even refer to themselves as factions). Anyway here is Reece’s response and the question I asked him earlier.

    Hey Chris, if the CT provides a USR that confers onto the unit, they get it (such as H&R) or if it specifics they do (as with UM). However, a BA character for example, joining an Iron Hand sunit, would not then get FnP or what have you.

    See you in Austin,

    Reece

    I am playing in WarGamesCon and I have a question regarding Chapter Tactics special rule and how they interact with Blood Angels and Space Wolves and the Dark Angels units? I think it is clear that per the rule (for your convenience I included it below, italics are mine) that DA, BA and SW are not “Chapters” per the codex SM definition, as they do not have the Chapter Tactics special rule. This would mean that they when SW, DA, BA join a unit with the Chapter Tactics rule, the unit keeps its chapter tactics. It would also mean for those tactics that convey to a unit, an IC with chapter tactics would then convey it to a BA, SW, or DA unit. I know in the fluff they are First Founding Chapters but not in the rules (per the SM codex’s definition of a Chapter, nor can I find it defined anywhere else). There is no mention of chapter tactics in the SW, DA or BA codex’s rules sections, they refer to themselves as a faction when they do refer to themselves.

    “The Chapter Tactics special rule represents a group of rules that are specific to a given Chapter. When choosing an army, you must make a note of which Chapter each unit with the Chapter Tactics special rule is drawn from. All models in the same Detachment or Formation must be drawn from the same Chapter. If a unit’s datasheet contains a Chapter in brackets after the Chapter Tactics special rule – for example, ‘Chapter Tactics (Ultramarines)’ – the unit must always be drawn from this Chapter, and therefore cannot be included in a Detachment or Formation with any units that are drawn from other Chapters. All models drawn from a given Chapter benefit from that Chapter’s Chapter Tactics rules, as described below. The rules will often refer to a model, character or unit by its Chapter; in all cases, this refers to a model, character or unit with the Chapter Tactics special rule that is drawn from the given Chapter. If a unit contains models drawn from two different Chapters, it counts as from neither Chapter, and thus benefits from neither Chapter Tactic.” (Codex Space Marines, Game Work Shop, 2015)

  15. Jural June 16, 2015 11:15 am
    #

    Good summary. I’m likewise confused about the ITC ruling here. But I’m more nervous that every codex is now needing it’s own “first aid” as the rules get more and more obscure.

    Luckily DA drop this weekend and I’m sure the ITC will have no need to nerf them 😉

    • Mike June 16, 2015 11:31 am
      #

      Seeing GW’s performance lately, there will probably be like 5 things that don’t work with ITC rules and have to be changed immediately. I swear they’re doing it on purpose.

      • jmanj123 June 16, 2015 12:50 pm
        #

        But is that a GW issue or an ITC issue? The more rules and restrictions ITC places on list building, the more issues that result from interactions with the actual rules sold and distributed by GW. Chicken/Egg.

        • Kartr Kana June 16, 2015 1:56 pm
          #

          Except unlike Chicken/Egg, GW/ITC is no controversy. GW came first.

        • Reecius
          Reecius June 16, 2015 1:57 pm
          #

          It’s a combination of both. However, the alternative is to go full Monte 7th ed, which is like giving into Cthulhu, lol. It’s play with restrictions to tone things down, or play without them and have the power curve go off the charts.

          However, as always, we will reassess things at the end of the season. Perhaps the general consensus is to loosen up on some of the restrictions a bit. We’ll see when that time comes.

          • Adam
            Adam (Thediceabide.com) June 16, 2015 2:30 pm
            #

            The more that comes out, the more I think it should just go full unbound for what armies are allowed in championships, and a very restricted army (like single CAD) for a side event, like playing a restricted game of magic. As it is, they’ve done a really good job providing a lot of reasons to not play an unbound list, with awesome special rules or free units, so the incentive to play an Unbound list is getting very low.

          • Ghost Valley June 16, 2015 2:52 pm
            #

            Haha cthulhu . Everyone gives into Eldritch fear at some point. A mind is only so strong.

        • Jural June 16, 2015 4:51 pm
          #

          Well, GW doesn’t have an out of the box playable product for tournaments right now, and the ITC’s sandbox needs to be re-written after every codex.

          I think it’s probably time to just ignore tournaments for 12 months and see where the hell we are afterwards.

          • John June 17, 2015 6:06 am
            #

            To be honest 40K is going to probably get the end times age of sigmar reboot to look like the new fantasy in a year or two so messing around with it now is akin to playing with the OP end times crap.

    • Punchymango June 16, 2015 12:34 pm
      #

      Just start telling yourself that this is the new normal, and that the game will finally be balanced once every faction has gotten a redo giving them access to this kind of bullshit.

      My prediction is that we’ll get 2-3 more books written like this, and then GW will do an abrupt reversal of course for more “simple, streamlined, minimalist rules” codex releases, just in time to screw CSM and DE again.

      • abusepuppy June 16, 2015 2:38 pm
        #

        >Just start telling yourself that this is the new normal, and that the game will finally be balanced once every faction has gotten a redo giving them access to this kind of bullshit.

        So the same thing every 40K player has been saying for every edition, then. >.>

      • John June 17, 2015 6:05 am
        #

        Lolz I think they have a giant dart board in the office with various sections corresponding to how OP to lame a dex will be… and depending on how drunk bob the intern is when throwing the dart determines the power level of your dex. He probably blacked out when he was throwing the dart for the grey knight codex and didn’t even get it to the board.

  16. Greggles June 16, 2015 12:02 pm
    #

    I can forsee the future!

    Ork decurions..take a bunch of stuff, get nine killa kans for free!

    • John June 16, 2015 12:30 pm
      #

      They should just cut to the chase and have an ork formation that you spend 2,000 pts on and it allows you to pile as many orks as you can purchase from GW into your deployment zone….that will sell some models. The whole purpose of this hobby is to buy things from GW and acquire as many limited editions as possible.

      • z3n1st June 16, 2015 1:43 pm
        #

        Ork formation, bring a shit ton of guys, then on turn 2 another player brings his whole ork army to join you, outflanking from the opponent board edge, then you get to WAAGH and charge the same turn…totally fluffy

        • John June 17, 2015 6:02 am
          #

          ironically more fluffy than 60 jetbikes with scatter lasers…the best part of the new marine detachments etc is no one thinks eldar is all that broken anymore GW trollz the player base so hard to regularly its amazing.

          • z3n1st June 17, 2015 8:59 am
            #

            yes but the damage is already done, Eldar got nerfed, and its highly unlikely they will be un-nerfed. Just like it is unlikely that Marines will get nerfed at all.

          • Reecius
            Reecius June 17, 2015 9:43 am
            #

            Eldar got nerfed? How? If you are referring to the ITC, they got buffed. Previously they were not allowed to use D weapons at all. Now they can. That is a boost in power, and an exception to the rules made to accommodate them, not a nerf. Glass is half full, my friend =)

          • Jural June 17, 2015 9:47 am
            #

            You can argue that only one special per 3 bikes is a nerf, and the nerf to Close Combat D and Ranged D makes the Wraithknights questionable to field.

          • z3n1st June 17, 2015 11:20 am
            #

            indicating I can play units in my codex is not ‘buffing’ lol

          • John June 17, 2015 11:41 am
            #

            Yeah I agree the ITC is an absolute JOKE if nothing is done about the new marine book after all of the changes that were made to the eldar book. Either nerf all of it to a simialr power level or nerf none of it.

          • z3n1st June 17, 2015 12:04 pm
            #

            I certainly would not say the ITC is a JOKE, regardless of whether or not I agree some some of their stances or rulings. They have done quite a bit of good for the 40k community and the game as a whole, and its because of the ITC that I got back into the game in the first place. The rapid fire codex deployment along with exuberant power creep that has appeared in the past few codices in the way of formations has me scratching my head though, and wondering if I made the right choice coming back to the hobby. I just feel that the community as a whole turns a blind eye to some issues while calling out the inquisition on others. Which at the end of the day leaves me not as excited to play the game as I once was.

          • Kartr June 18, 2015 4:28 am
            #

            Except jural they didn’t nerf bikes to 1 special per 3 bikes. That was voted on and keeping it by the book won.

          • dr.insanotron June 18, 2015 7:17 am
            #

            And they also didn’t change melee d weapons ether

    • abusepuppy June 16, 2015 2:39 pm
      #

      I hate to break it to you, but Orks already got their book. They aren’t going to see much, if any, more content for the rest of 7E.

      • Kartr Kana June 16, 2015 2:59 pm
        #

        Could always get another supplement book.

      • Narfwak June 16, 2015 8:22 pm
        #

        This is the thing that bugs me a bit about the sudden spike in power levels in the last few books. It’s okay if everyone is turned up to eleven, but they already did most of the factions in the game last year. It feels like they internally changed the edition to 7.5 and forgot to tell anyone.

      • greggles June 17, 2015 4:01 am
        #

        There has been rumors of a plastic buggy kit, and a evil sunz supplement since the codex was originally poking about. I assume the book won’t be updated, but I could definitely see a red is fastar book pop up with a buggy kit and some sort of HQ clamshell (grukk repacking)

  17. Lord Krungharr June 16, 2015 4:23 pm
    #

    The first thing I noticed was that Land Raider Spearhead Formation. That would be tough to outright wreck or explode 2 of them before the hammernators inside get to where they need to be….especially if the Librarius behind them gets them Forewarned and/or Invisible!

    • Kartr June 17, 2015 9:35 am
      #

      It’s also 750 points! SS TH terminators inside easily brings the cost to 1425 before anything else is added. Almost 1500 points for 6 units isn’t that good.

      • Jural June 17, 2015 9:50 am
        #

        TH/SS Terminators are kinda a waste in a Land Raider. You spend so much to protect them with SS + LR, you would be better off just getting more Termis and deep striking them in.

        So you would only really put one unit in one of the LR, but then of course that is the LR which will get melta’d…

        Ironically, this would be a pretty cool formation for Chaos, as they could put Berserkers in a LR and Cultists with a Lord in another… Not super effective, but would be fun to try!

        • Kartr June 18, 2015 4:32 am
          #

          It’s also not bad for Black Templars as you could fill them with Crusader Squads. 15 WS4 I4 CC pistol models + 1IC in each Raider

  18. Ibushi June 17, 2015 3:25 pm
    #

    So to clarify — an Eldar Warhost formation could not include 2 Aspect Host formations under its formation, but the Battle Company takes 2 Demi-Companies?

    Without playing the Battle Company I can’t say how it will be, and I wouldn’t be too scared to face it either (although that’s not saying much..), so either way really.

    Overall am liking the sound of the new marines, they have some good flavour and some good tools, but nothing that makes me feel like its just stupid.

    Cheers
    Ibushi

    • Adam
      Adam (Thediceabide.com) June 17, 2015 3:41 pm
      #

      Close, the Battle Company doesn’t exist as a formation though. The Gladius Strike Force (a detachment like the Craftworld Warhost) is allowed 1-2 Demi-companies (which are the Core formation, like the 1-3 Guardian Hosts), with an added command bonus given if you take the 2 Demi-company formations, which refers to them collectively as a “Battle Company” and gives you the free transports. The issue is that no other Decurion/Warhost/etc., is allowed to take a duplicate core formation (or any formation for that matter) under current ITC rules, not that the two demi-companies is overpowered or not.

      • Billpete002 June 20, 2015 7:23 pm
        #

        How I read the Demi-company is that you can’t take crusader squads or bike squads… Just tactical marines…

        So there no way to field black Templars or white scars without unbounded…

        Who thought this was a good idea?

        • Reecius
          Reecius June 21, 2015 7:06 am
          #

          You can play them in a CAD.

  19. MidnightSun June 17, 2015 11:50 pm
    #

    While I don’t think Sicarius is ever *good*, I think you can get some mileage out of him (fluffily enough) in a Drop Pod Battle Company. You need to bring a Captain anyway, so he fills that requirement, and he has Rites of War as a guaranteed trait which of course is more valuable the more units you have (and with Combat Squads, you’re going to have a tonne of units), and his Surprise Attack rule giving you +1 on Reserves is a nice bonus for a Pod army. It means Tigurius can’t be your warlord (who is strictly better with a great Trait), but if you couldn’t afford a Libraries then Sicarius is an option.

  20. Drake_263 June 27, 2015 10:04 am
    #

    Pedro also got a minor stealth buff – his armor save is now 2+, so they finally dug out a suit of artificer armor for him. Makes him quite better than before, actually, with the changes to his special rules – Oath of Rynn now buffs him, too, and it’ll also stack with a nearby Chapter Banner for a pretty hilarious +2A on anything within 12″. (Trying to fit a list where Kantor with a banner advances next to a three-man squadron of Ironclads for maximum shits and giggles)

    He’s actually pretty nice since a regular Chapter Master with similar equipment (Captain, CM upgrade, artificer armor, power fist, storm bolter) comes up to 90+40+20+25+5 = 180 points. Kantor costs what, 190 points? 10 points more gets you all those special rules and makes his storm bolter actually not hilariously terrible.

  21. Loyce June 27, 2015 4:00 pm
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    Why is everyone so high on the demi company. Only the troop selections get objective secure just like a CAD.

  22. Dan June 28, 2015 11:59 am
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    The demi-company gives obsec to all units inside the company i believe

  23. Hugsonex December 14, 2016 3:02 am
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    Can i use armored task force or anti air defence force with out Demi Company and still get extra rules?