The Eldar $250 Challenge is On! (First Game Tonight, 7pm PST)

Eldar Challenge

Reecius thinks Eldar are too powerful, and is willing to put $250 of his own money on the table to back that up! You think he’s wrong and that you can topple his Eldar, and take his money? Then pick up the gauntlet and prove him wrong!

Hey everyone, Reecius here with a fun challenge: come and beat me in a live game of 40k on our Twitch Channel and earn yourself $250, cash money! I think the new Eldar are brutal and am left sort of scratching my head about it, but, I want to be wrong! Can the Scat Packs (Eldar Jet Bikes with Scatter Lasers) and the Dirty D slangers be taken down? Are Apoc Blast, Fleshbane, AP3, Haywire psychic powers that are easy to cast a tad much? Seer Council getting me down? Help me turn my Eldar frown, upside down!

We typically broadcast live games every Tuesday and Thursday night on out Twitch Channel, FrontlineGaming_TV, as well as our live show, Signals from the Frontline, on Mondays and Fridays. But, this Eldar-palooza warrants some serious attention! We’ll be live casting tonight, Wednesday starting at 7pm PST and may be able to squeeze in a double header as we have two challengers tonight, Jon Bunn–former Head TO for Feast of Blades, and James Carmona–#5 ranked in the ITC–and his Chaos army! We’ve also got multiple GT winner, Douglas Johnson bringing his Censtar and Termiestar list to challenge later in the week, too!

The rules:

  • You cannot also bring Eldar, lol!
  • You can use up to 3 detachments, in anticipation of Wargames Con, coming up in June which we are administering and TO’ing for 40k.
  • Follow ITC guidelines, but, you can use the unmodified Invisibility or 2+ reroll save if you want to.

So come on out, have a fun game with Eldar and see if you can punch Reecius in the dingus and take his moolah! If you want to join in on the fun, tune in to Twitch and have fun with it! Caveat: we normally only play with painted models on our Live Stream, but, with this Eldar release, we didn’t have many of the new models so we have been using some unpainted models and occasional proxies. We have the missing models en route from GW, just need to get them assembled. Sorry for that, but not much we could do about it.

Also, be sure to catch our 25% off sale on the Assassinorium Execution Force game while it lasts!

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About Reecius

The fearless leader of the intrepid group of gamers gone retailers at Frontline Gaming!

98 Responses to “The Eldar $250 Challenge is On! (First Game Tonight, 7pm PST)”

  1. Jeremy Veysseire
    MikhailLenin April 29, 2015 12:05 pm
    #

    Challenge Accepted Reece. Now fly up to Portland.

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 29, 2015 12:11 pm
      #

      Lol, that’s not the way it works, haha

  2. Requizen
    Requizen April 29, 2015 12:08 pm
    #

    If the flight wasn’t more expensive than the prize, then I’d be all for it! Necrons don’t have an “easy” time against them, but I think they have a better shot than most other armies in the game. Though that’s not saying much, as most people think Necrons are also a bit overpowered…

    If I spent more on Daemons I think they could give a run for their money too 😀

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 29, 2015 12:12 pm
      #

      Yeah, Necrons can likely do it, Daemons are another good choice!

  3. Eldarain April 29, 2015 12:19 pm
    #

    What is Doug’s Termiestar?

    Also did anyone take your money last time? I only remember jy2 coming damn close with his Nids.

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 29, 2015 12:49 pm
      #

      Nope, my money stayed in my pocket!

  4. TrueKnight April 29, 2015 12:44 pm
    #

    Gott Damn it… If only I could webway from Pittsurgh to sunny San Diego :/

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 29, 2015 12:49 pm
      #

      That’d be awesome!

  5. Hotsauceman1 April 29, 2015 12:50 pm
    #

    Sure reece, I know I can’t beat you.
    I don’t even need a list just a rag and suspicious bottle and for you to have your money on you.

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 29, 2015 1:34 pm
      #

      Lol, dat chloroform attack!

  6. bridges60 April 29, 2015 1:09 pm
    #

    Well this will be interesting, I just beat Eldar today with pure Dark Eldar but he didn’t bring the wraith bombs or the Seer council. He did bring jet bike spam and they just don’t hold out well enough to be extremely viable in my opinion. I will say it took me 4 rounds to finally kill the wraith knight (thanks to lucky rolls with overwatch and my Archon’s agonizer scoring a 6). i got a taste of the Crimson hunter formation and was impressed as they hit hard but not as hard as the 6 hornets he had. I think Eldar are definitely strong, probably the strongest of the Dexes but they do have some significant weaknesses

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 29, 2015 1:36 pm
      #

      How did the Bikes lose a shoot out with DE if you don’t mind me asking? They have more firepower, same range, but are more mobile.

      • bridges60 April 29, 2015 1:49 pm
        #

        No problem bud, Well i made them jink as i split up my Grotesque disintegrator cannons on the secondary bike squads (i ran the Grotiscerie formation) along with my ravagers so I made 4 squads jink and hid my guys in cover enough to have some kind of save without jinking. the venoms would then work on the non jinking ones managing to kill one and wounding the other squad enough to force a morale check (which he failed). sure i would lose a venom or two in his return fire but, positioned well enough to mitigate his Hornets shooting. Once my razorwings came in they did enough to kill a squad and a half while i continued to fire on the other bike squads.

        • Khezden April 29, 2015 2:37 pm
          #

          I play DE, too. I was thinking about the challenge today and figured that something like this is how Reece might lose his $250.

          Someone will combine MSU and good unit and model spacing to minimize D damage. They will play to objectives while focusing fire on the (Bovine) Scat(ology) Bikes — potentially with deep striking leadership shenanigans, too. The Wraithguard will be immediately focused after they drop and erase a cheap unit. If they are lucky, Reese’s Wraithguard might even suffer from some form of premature disembarkation like Grant’s did… The Knight/Council will be ignored early and maybe killed late. They will be a bit luckier than Reece in reserve, cover, and objective rolls.

          A totally unsexy Fabius to Reece’s Hannibal 😉

          • Reecius
            Reecius April 29, 2015 2:53 pm
            #

            Lol, I dig it!

          • bridges60 April 29, 2015 3:56 pm
            #

            Now naturally I am cheering for Reece untill he plays dark eldar… Lmao!

  7. abusepuppy April 29, 2015 1:16 pm
    #

    CHAOS COMBINED ARMS
    1 Chaos Lord (MoS, Burning Brand, Steed, LC, MB)
    30 Cultists
    20 Cultists
    1 Heldrake (Baleflamer)
    1 Heldrake (Baleflamer)
    1 Heldrake (Baleflamer)
    2 Hades Rapiers
    2 Hades Rapiers
    2 Hades Rapiers
    1 Aegis Line (Comms Relay)
    FIREBASE SUPPORT CADRE
    1 Riptide (Ion, SMS, EWO)
    3 Broadsides (HYMP, EWO, 2 Missile Drone)
    3 Broadsides (HYMP, EWO, 2 Missile Drone)

    Pretty sure this will beat most Eldar lists that people would bring with an unrestricted codex, although it wouldn’t be able to beat most other tourney lists. Heldrakes wreck jetbikes and Wraithguard pretty bad, Early Warning Override prevents them from using Webway Portal or other shenanigans to get close to you, Hades Rapiers outrange D-Cannons and cause Pinning. A Sorcerer (for Invis) might be better, but Eldar have enough dice they seem likely to shut it down a lot of the time.

    The hard part isn’t beating Eldar. (Well, it kinda is.) It’s beating Eldar AND still being able to hold up against the rest of the field.

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 29, 2015 1:37 pm
      #

      I am pretty sure I will be facing a similar list tonight, sans Tau. Hell Trukies are good, but I think the Crimson Death Formation will handle them quite readily if played correctly.

      • abusepuppy April 29, 2015 1:40 pm
        #

        IN this context, the CSM player doesn’t really care if the Turkeys survive. If they kill ~2 jetbike squads each, they’ve done their job. And the Tau component here is actually pretty important, as it shuts down Crimson Death pretty hard- SMS cuts right through that cover save and hits from S7 can easily force a Jink to stay alive.

        • Reecius
          Reecius April 29, 2015 2:55 pm
          #

          Fair play, that may be the ticket. I am trying out loads of Eldar list, no game will be the same list, so that should make it more fun, too! I want to see if we can explore the a lot of the depth of the dex in a short span of time.

          • jamie April 30, 2015 6:06 am
            #

            for pure overkill and fun

            10 bikes with scatter lasers
            1 warlock on bike
            2 farseers one with shard

            between 2 far seers im sure u can get fortune/invis/guide

    • Fagerlund April 29, 2015 2:25 pm
      #

      You could also drop the Cultists to min-squads and the MB on the Lord and add a Noise Marine Squad with a Blastmaster for some extra S8 AP3 Ignores Cover goodness that can ObSec an objective as you all ready have the Mark on the Lord anyway. 🙂
      I wouldn’t expect them to live long, but if they take a wound of the WK or kill a squad of bikes that’s probably more than the Cultists will do.

      • abusepuppy April 29, 2015 7:34 pm
        #

        True, although that would be pretty vulnerable to the Scatter Bikes due to low body count and high cost; with triple-Drake, I think you’ve got enough AP3 to cut them up pretty bad.

        The Cultists’ have two jobs: one, go to ground in cover to soak up as much Scatter fire as possible (which they are fairly decent at) and two, to provide ablative wounds for the Lord when he comes in at the backfield. As far as CSM troops go, that’s about as good as you can hope for.

    • Will Grant April 30, 2015 4:40 am
      #

      Abusepuppy,

      What is your preferred weapon on the rapiers?

      • abusepuppy April 30, 2015 7:50 am
        #

        In this case? Hades Autocannons, as they outrange the D-Cannon by 12″, wound it on 3s, and can cause Pinning on the Ld8 squad. (And remember, Pinning will trigger even if you do a single wound to one of the guns.) It can also do a passable job of hitting flyers and other targets, although that’s not its main job here.

        In other armies I’d definitely be more inclined to favor the Cyclotrathe, since it’s an amazing buy, but I think the Hades wins out in this case- you need to be able to put multiple wounds on small squads and fire at flying targets as well as make Snap Shots.

    • Nomeny May 1, 2015 4:52 am
      #

      You’re in Reece’s area, right? Why don’t you take the challenge?

  8. iNcontroL April 29, 2015 1:34 pm
    #

    A BOLD MOVE COTTON.. LETS SEE HOW IT PANS OUT

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 29, 2015 2:57 pm
      #

      70% of the time, it works every time! lol

  9. jy2
    jy2 April 29, 2015 1:40 pm
    #

    Oh Reece, if only you were still up in the bay….

    BTW, I’m developing a tactica for Tyranids vs Eldar. When I finish, I’ll send it your way.

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 29, 2015 2:56 pm
      #

      I know you’d try and take my money, Jim! haha

      Can’t wait to read it as I think Nids will suffer the most to Eldar.

  10. Fagerlund April 29, 2015 2:31 pm
    #

    Bold move sir! Remind me to not take investing advice from you! 😉

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 29, 2015 2:56 pm
      #

      Thanks and yes, lol, probably not good to invest with my advice =P

  11. mathhammer April 29, 2015 2:31 pm
    #

    Well you be posting videos, or can we replay the live stream?

    That late down here in New Orleans we do other things than watch streaming videos…

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 29, 2015 2:55 pm
      #

      I love NOLA, totally get it. If you click on previous broadcasts, you can see older streams and yes, we do get them up on YouTube as soon as we can, although sometimes there is a lag as we get a bit behind in our workload.

      • mathhammer April 29, 2015 4:12 pm
        #

        thanks for the reply.

  12. cuddles April 29, 2015 2:42 pm
    #

    Renegandes
    Assorted HQ
    2×5 vets in chimera w/plasma
    3 x Wyvern
    3 x Wyvern
    3 x Wyvern
    CSM
    Sorcerer (ML3)
    10 cultists
    1 Dreadclaw
    3x Mutilator(MoN) in Dreadclaw
    Heldrake
    3 x Rapier with Hades

    Haven’t got the rest figured out yet, but yeah.

    • abusepuppy April 29, 2015 7:35 pm
      #

      >Mutilators

      There isn’t enough 😐 in the world to sum up my opinion of this.

      • cuddles May 1, 2015 12:57 pm
        #

        I beg to to differ:

        > mutilators > douchebags >abusepuppy

    • Diceskill April 30, 2015 3:37 am
      #

      Replace the 9 Wyvern with 15 Griffons and this can become ugly real quick. There are better options than Mutilators of course.

      Though I think you’d need a second CSM troops choice to field 3 Rapiers.

  13. Re dog April 29, 2015 3:57 pm
    #

    I m coming from Florida I lo meet you half way! Let’s find a shop midway

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 29, 2015 4:29 pm
      #

      Lol, awesome!

  14. Bdub April 29, 2015 5:01 pm
    #

    green tide could take the new eldar I think. As long as you position yourself right to get cover on top of the fnp you should be able to overwhelm them by turn 3. Reece, you should challenge yourself with your orks so you can take your money. 😀

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 30, 2015 11:32 am
      #

      Haha, yes! I shall defeat myself!

  15. Jason Brown April 29, 2015 5:51 pm
    #

    I think the green tide will suffer badly vs Eldar. Heck that 10 inch pie plate is going to do a big chunk of the job. The Eldar player is taking the Seer Council, it’s too good to pass up: 3+ to harness and I can rerolls failed dice.

    • Eldarain April 29, 2015 5:59 pm
      #

      The Scatter bikes remove horrendous numbers of them as well.

      • abusepuppy April 29, 2015 7:35 pm
        #

        And god forbid you roll up Perfect Timing on one of your Farseers…

  16. Mike April 29, 2015 8:10 pm
    #

    Ugh. I foresee me having a headache.
    Here’s what will probably happen:

    -Someone will bring a very tailored anti-eldar list.
    -Reece will have the worst rolls of his life.
    -The challenger will have awesome rolls like he bribed the dice gods.
    -Eldar will lose only by an absolute miracle.
    And then the headache part:
    -tons of “forum players” will cite that one match as proof that the eldar are not OP. -_____-

    Also you should play some 7e eldar vs 6e eldar batreps. Heh.

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 30, 2015 11:33 am
      #

      That ALMOST hapenned, lol! First game, the poor marines got owned. Second game, Wraithknight gets killed with the first shot, Shriek rolls a 17, I fail every FnP, lol! I barely won on the last turn.

  17. mortetvie April 29, 2015 11:15 pm
    #

    I wish I was closer, I’d be $250 the richer! =D

    I was thinking a solid Tau list would be a fair match for the new Eldar. Maybe even ally in some Space Marines, who knows. Overall, looking forward to seeing how things pan out with these games-we can all probably learn a lot in terms of what to do or not to do (i.e., we can learn from their mistakes). =)

    Somehow, I think misfortune would benefit the Tau shooting a lot-rending against a specific target *cough* wraith knight *cough*.

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 30, 2015 11:34 am
      #

      I think Tau will be solid against Eldar, for sure. Come down! That would be a good match up, you and I always have crazy close games.

      • mortetvie April 30, 2015 12:39 pm
        #

        Wait, you guys are in San Diego now? I’ll totally come down for a game if you guys are closer than the North Pole!

        • Reecius
          Reecius April 30, 2015 12:57 pm
          #

          Yeah, we are in SD =)

          • mortetvie April 30, 2015 3:15 pm
            #

            Ok, how do I set up a game with you =)?

  18. Pascalnz April 30, 2015 12:52 am
    #

    oh man I have to wait till next year to take your money… dag nabit 🙂

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 30, 2015 11:34 am
      #

      That would have been an epic match1

  19. Cavalier April 30, 2015 3:19 am
    #

    I’m in the process of playtesting too but as was mentioned above the Jetbikes may hit like a mack truck but they are very fragile.

    Helldrakes, Flamers of Tzneetch, the Foregeworld Riptides (deepstriking), Marker Light Tetras+ regular Riptides, Hyperios Whirlwind with upgrade, Dark Eldar Medusae (Str 4 Ap3 flamers) WWP bombs are the top units for eating them alive with no saves at all.

    While regular Imperial Knights with battlecannons, Basilisks, Razorwing Missile Spam, Grav Centurions (with Draigo), or any variety of Ap3 blasts will batter the squad, leave them jinking neutering their offense. Allowing your other units to clean up whats left.

    Also while it may be more difficult snagging them in CC via clever board control with Reaver Jetbikes, Screamers of Tzneetch, Striders of Slaanesh, or dropping assault units out of a Storm Raven will also do the trick.

    My point being there are plenty of counters to the Jetbike and if you simply control how many ranged d weapons are allowed in a game that is all that is needed to calm the storm.

    • Cavalier April 30, 2015 4:41 am
      #

      Forgot about Plasmacutioners too. A squadron of 3 with Pask and support from Primaris Psykers will put the fear of the emperor in them as well. Also the JB’s can’t touch their armor

      • abusepuppy April 30, 2015 9:40 am
        #

        You know that there are units in the codex other than Jetbikes, right? And that Leman Russes just absolutely evaporate under Str D shooting?

        • Reecius
          Reecius April 30, 2015 11:36 am
          #

          Yeah, unfortunately, WWP+D Scythes means the entire Tank squadron will get dusted unless you can bubble wrap the crap out of them AND keep the bubble wrap alive in the face of the Scat Attack.

      • Jim April 30, 2015 4:51 pm
        #

        What was that mortar? Bombard? Is that out of the new AM Codex? That S6 AP3 no cover large blast would’ve been handy.

    • Kartr May 1, 2015 5:18 am
      #

      The Whirlwind Hyperios is the anti-air version, you’re thinking of the Whirlwind Scorpius.

  20. Jason Brown April 30, 2015 4:29 am
    #

    Dark reapers own them hard. 48 inch range, ignores jink ap3.

    • bridges60 April 30, 2015 6:22 am
      #

      Unfortunately, no hot Eldar on Eldar action for the Challenge

  21. archied1 April 30, 2015 5:44 am
    #

    Who won the second game last night, with Reccius vs. Daemon horde? When I had to log off to go to bed, the WK had been taken out and things were looking good for Daemons, but it was still pretty early . . .

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 30, 2015 10:32 am
      #

      Eldar won, despite me playing like a dumb ass, having no psykers, and Daemons having hot dice. I pulled the age old, “Jump on the objectives last turn and pray for the game to end,” Eldar trickery, and it worked.

  22. Sam April 30, 2015 6:02 am
    #

    Just a thought on all the “Here’s the Eldar answer to that build” types of posts. Eldar have always been highly specialized. They can always (in every edition of the book) provide an answer to a specific build. The problem comes when you have to build an “all comers” list that takes on the entire meta of the game.

    It’s not enough to say that my wraithguard will counter X, and my jetbikes will counter Y, and my… etc, etc. You have to have an army that works together. That becomes a bit more difficult.

    As a long term Eldar player ( It’s been my main army since ’95) I don’t think the net lists have even begun to touch on the strongest builds yet

    First, the jetbikes are going to be much more difficult to run than people think. Large squads of jetbikes are tough to hide, and are vulnerable to leadership problems (notice the warlock is still ld 8). A few smallish, say under 5, jetbike squads are going to be much easier to manage and still incredibly effective.

    If I were building a list to counter the “net-list” talk that’s going around now, I would focus on marine assault squads, bike units, and anything with twin linked assault cannons. As much as it’s not a power army, blood angels have all the tools required to heavily threaten the Eldar.

    Without building a full list, something like: Librarian, Chaplain, 15 ish man Death Company (jump packs), 4 or so tac squads in razorbacks – tl assault cannons, an assault squad w/ a powerfist, sternguard in a drop pod, baal predator, stormraven. Ally in a stupid cheap inquisitor for his servo skulls to mess up any infiltrators or scouts he has.

    You’d have to tweak it for points, but it’s going to do a number on Eldar.

    • bridges60 April 30, 2015 6:24 am
      #

      Agreed, from early play testing the Eldar have a bit of an Identity crisis.

    • abusepuppy April 30, 2015 9:48 am
      #

      >Librarian

      Is never going to get to cast a spell. Remember, Eldar can reroll their Denial dice as well.

      >>15man JP Death Company

      A pretty easy target for Eldtritch Storm and D-Scythes as well as the Wraithknight. Considering it costs drastically more than the WK (especially with Chappy attached) but almost inevitably loses to it in a fight, I’m not sure what you think you’re accomplishing with this unit. You aren’t going to outmaneuver them, for sure.

      >TLAC Razors

      I guess you think these are going to kill the Wraithknight? They aren’t. The four of them together put about two wounds onto it, or just over half a wound after cover and FNP. And that’s assuming no Invisibility or Shrouding or Fortune- any of those will completely shut down your ability to hurt it. Moreover, Scatter Bikes outrange you, outmaneuver you, and kill you very effectively (AV11 is one of their favorite targets) while you are quite expensive for the firepower output.

      >Sternguard

      Will kill one Bike squad (or even Wraithguard, possibly) but it seems optimistic to expect anything beyond that. They die just like regular Marines when they get shot at, and you can bet that they are going to take a lot of firepower (or an assault from the WK, depending.)

      >Baal Predator

      The AC/HB version, I’m guessing? Probably never gonna get to shoot. Side armor 11 makes it not really much tougher than a Razorback, and 24″ range means that you need to close in to the point where you’re likely to expose that armor.

      >Stormraven

      Why? Are you just trying to bring every Assault Cannon in the codex without any explanation as to what it does for you?

      • mortetvie April 30, 2015 10:24 am
        #

        Just an FYI, the Farseer’s Runes bonus to deny the witch ONLY works if he is a target of a power. BRB says “[i]f the Psychic test was passed, one of the enemy targets gets a chance to expend Warp Charge points to nullify the power by taking a Deny the Witch test… If the psychic power does not target an enemy unit, your opponent can still attempt to Deny the Witch, but will not be able to use any bonuses.”

        Therefore, while very powerful, the Farseer’s runes for Deny the Witch tests won’t see much use unless the Farseer is actually in a unit that is targeted =(.

        • abusepuppy April 30, 2015 11:41 am
          #

          That’s actually not correct- it says that you _apply no modifiers to the die roll_, which is not the same thing as rerolling dice.

          • mortetvie April 30, 2015 12:48 pm
            #

            Abusepuppy, I disagree for the following reasons:

            (1) the Farseer can only make a Deny the Witch roll if it is a target or part of a unit that is targeted… As per the first part of the rule I quoted above (i.e., “[i]f the Psychic test was passed, one of the enemy targets gets a chance to expend Warp Charge points to nullify the power by taking a Deny the Witch test).

            (2) Therefore, because the Runes of the Farseer power states “…a model with this special rule can re-roll any number of dice used in a single Deny the Witch test…” the Farseer can ONLY use the Runes of the Farseer rule if the Farseer is the one making the Deny the Witch test.

            (3) Therefore if the Farseer is NOT the one making the Deny the Witch test, it does not get to use the Runes of the Farseer ability when it is not a target or part of a unit that is targeted.

            It seems pretty straight forward to me, so where am I going wrong?

          • mortetvie April 30, 2015 1:41 pm
            #

            Also, you misstate the second part of the rule that I quoted which says “not be able to use any bonuses” and not “no modifiers,” as you put it. Is re-rolling the dice a bonus? I’d say so…

          • abusepuppy April 30, 2015 6:23 pm
            #

            Except that when you are Denying a power that does not target your models, you still get to choose a unit that makes the Deny roll.

            It’s “modifier,” not “bonus.” p.26, last paragraph on the left side. You were the one who misquoted, not me. And p.11 of the rulebook helpfully defines what a modifier to a roll means, which is NOT the same as rerolling the dice.

          • mortetvie April 30, 2015 7:45 pm
            #

            I suppose we are both correct about what the rules says-in a way. Go to the part of the BRB that says “manifesting Psychic Powers Sequence” and go to numbered point 4. It specifically says the the rule as I quoted it (e.g., “no bonuses”). I am relying on an ebook version that doesn’t have page numbers so I can’t refer to a specific page but you should be able to find it.

            Now regarding the quote you were referring to and are relying on, which appears after the quote I was citing, it does go on to say “follow the same process but apply no modifiers.”

            However, if you do exactly what the rule tells you to do, you are forced to do something patently impossible and illogical…

            Specifically, the steps of that “process” are:

            1.) “select one of your units THAT WAS A TARGET of the enemy’s psychic power.”

            2.) “You will then need to expend a number of warp charge points; declare how many points you will spend and remove them from your pool.

            3.) “Then roll a number of D6 equal to the number of Warp Charge points expended.

            4.) For each result of 6+, one Warp Charge point has been successfully nullified.

            5.) “If you nullify all of the harnessed Warp Charge points, the Deny the Witch test has been passed and the power does not manifest.”

            Now I ask you, how can you actually follow step 1 when none of your units were targeted? I would argue that you can’t-it is logically impossible for you to “select one of your units that was a target of the enemy’s psychic power” when none of your units actually were a target.

            Therefore, you have to skip step 1 and start at step 2 in order to avoid a logical contradiction-which means that none of your units are actually making the Deny the Witch test.

            So with all of that said, I’d like to know what rule you are relying on that lets you choose a unit that was not a target of a power to make a Deny the Witch test.

      • Sam April 30, 2015 10:34 am
        #

        >Librarian

        Is never going to get to cast a spell. Remember, Eldar can reroll their Denial dice as well.

        I’m inclined to agree with you to a point here. I disagree that he’ll never get anything off, but he will struggle. His real utility is making the offensive eldar powers a tad less reliable. Throwing him in the Death company helps them a bit. He might even get a buff or two off.

        He’s certainly not a central point to the list, so let’s drop him and use the points for something else, somewhere else.

        >>15man JP Death Company

        A pretty easy target for Eldtritch Storm and D-Scythes as well as the Wraithknight. Considering it costs drastically more than the WK (especially with Chappy attached) but almost inevitably loses to it in a fight, I’m not sure what you think you’re accomplishing with this unit. You aren’t going to outmaneuver them, for sure.

        Yup, it’s a target for Eldritch Storm. So what? So is anything else in the game. Spread out, throw the libby in for some bonus to your denial and lose a couple of guys (with feel no pain). The unit works, and is a serious threat. You are going to outmaneuver them if you know how to play. Simply being faster isn’t everything. Jetbikes that are turbo boosting aren’t shooting. Being in the middle area of the board with jump pack equipped assault units gives you a very large threat range. Whining doesn’t win games – playing better does.

        >TLAC Razors

        I guess you think these are going to kill the Wraithknight? They aren’t. The four of them together put about two wounds onto it, or just over half a wound after cover and FNP. And that’s assuming no Invisibility or Shrouding or Fortune- any of those will completely shut down your ability to hurt it. Moreover, Scatter Bikes outrange you, outmaneuver you, and kill you very effectively (AV11 is one of their favorite targets) while you are quite expensive for the firepower output.

        I NEVER take an army that has a unit dedicated to countering one solitary unit that I MIGHT face in a tournament. TLAC razorbacks are fantastic units that do a large amount of damage in proportion to their low cost. AV11 is a favorite target of scatbikes. But interestingly, the cheaper razorback is just as effective against the jetbikes – and still threatens the wraithknight, wraithguard, every Eldar vehicle, and makes any farseer on foot nervous (instant death).

        >Sternguard

        Will kill one Bike squad (or even Wraithguard, possibly) but it seems optimistic to expect anything beyond that. They die just like regular Marines when they get shot at, and you can bet that they are going to take a lot of firepower (or an assault from the WK, depending.)

        So, they kill the wraithguard (or not, if you deployed better than he did, and his wraithguard won’t get to you for a turn or two). Solid trade. That means anywhere else you mention wraithguard is invalid, or did you mean you’ll have a bunch of them. If so, did you have everything else?

        >Baal Predator

        The AC/HB version, I’m guessing? Probably never gonna get to shoot. Side armor 11 makes it not really much tougher than a Razorback, and 24″ range means that you need to close in to the point where you’re likely to expose that armor.

        So, you’re assuming you’ll be the Eldar player, starting the game with side armor shots and that a fast vehicle with 24″ range can’t shoot at your… wait… 36″ range? If that’s the best player you’ve faced playing a marine list, no wonder you’re not impressed.

        >Stormraven

        Why? Are you just trying to bring every Assault Cannon in the codex without any explanation as to what it does for you?

        The stormraven is a solid anti-air flyer. It fills multiple roles, and adds a lot of options for what you face. It has the potential to drop a crimson hunter or two – or possibly die to them without doing a thing. Again, it’s about the combined army, not the individual units.

        While this was just an example force, it’s a sampling of what can threaten the generic “net list” that’s being developed. Your style of “I can think of a counter to that” is nothing but a perfect example of my primary point that Eldar have always had a counter to that. I challenge you to put together a list of Eldar that can handle this army and still compete against Flying Hive Tyrant spam, a solid Decurion, a Deathstar of some sort, and a good Daemon army.

        I think you’ll find that as you have to make trade-offs to handle the other scenarios that your army is very good – but not unbeatable. Eldar are probably the strongest codex right now, I won’t disagree.

        All of your arguments are “This unit counters that unit”. And I would agree with you if your opponent is stupid. But, assuming a relatively competent opponent, he’s not likely to walk right up and say “Hey, how can I best suicide on your army?”

        Consider this. If your jetbikes are hanging out at 36″, how are they scoring? Or did you have them in the middle scoring? If so, aren’t they in range? Aren’t they DC fodder? You can’t play the game by comparing units, the game is based on the mission objectives. The list (or certainly a well tested and heavily min-maxed variant of it) will challenge the Eldar thoughts being thrown around.

        • Sam April 30, 2015 10:43 am
          #

          I’ll add in that there’s plenty of room in what I wrote to throw in a sprinkling of grav weapons, some unit upgrades, and (after playtesting and tweaking) probably another unit or two.

        • abusepuppy April 30, 2015 11:40 am
          #

          >and lose a couple of guys (with feel no pain)

          It’s not gonna be “a couple of guys,” though. Storm is an Apocalyptic Blast- that mean it’s probably gonna hit more or less the whole unit, wounding on 2s and cutting through their armor saves. With 5+ cover (no guarantee) and FNP, you’re likely to lose ~8 guys from each cast. You’re giving it a big, obvious target that it can hit with maximum efficiency, which is a bad plan.

          >units that do a large amount of damage in proportion to their low cost.

          AssBacks do not qualify for this. For 75pts, you get four S6 shots on a reasonably fragile chassis. That is neither cheap nor efficient nor survivable.

          >every Eldar vehicle, and makes any farseer on foot nervous (instant death).

          This is not really doing you any favors- Farseers are NEVER fielded on foot.

          > That means anywhere else you mention wraithguard is invalid, or did you mean you’ll have a bunch of them

          Well, for one you’re going to see at least two squads of Wraithguard. More importantly, you are NOT guaranteed to kill the WG, and you only get to kill them if you get the drop on them (which you won’t if you’re in a Drop Pod, because they arrive after you.) But they are, at least, a potential solution for the WG so I’m giving you some credit. But they are by no means a hard counter or even likely to cripple them unless you’re spending a ton of points on the unit.

          > If that’s the best player you’ve faced playing a marine list, no wonder you’re not impressed.

          No, the Eldar player probably doesn’t shoot you on turn 1 if he’s going first- but he doesn’t have to, because you’ve provided him with tons of good targets to shoot at. But with the JSJ move they can stay out of your initial threat zone (except from the HBs) and you have to maneuver forward, exposing your sides to them.

          >Consider this. If your jetbikes are hanging out at 36″, how are they scoring?

          They’re scoring at the end of the game. In ITC they may concede some Malestrom points early, but the WG/WK can easily pick up central objectives if it comes down to it and they’ll cause so much damage that turns 4-7 they should easily be able to recoup that.

          >All of your arguments are “This unit counters that unit”

          No, it would be more accurate to say that I’m arguing that most of your units are vulnerable to the Eldar’s primary strategy. They rely on maneuver and firepower to wear you down while you are unable to affect them- and your list has no counter to that. If you had, say, run with TriLas Predators and/or Devastators, you could at least argue that you can shoot at them and lean on their relative fragility- but with a shorter range and less maneuver, you’re probably never going to be able to do that. Your plan is fundamentally flawed, because it assumes that you’ll be able to do things that the battlefield won’t favor.

          >You can’t play the game by comparing units, the game is based on the mission objectives

          You seemed perfectly happy to compare units when defending the strengths of your list- why is it inapplicable when it’s the other way around?

          • Sam April 30, 2015 12:01 pm
            #

            No, I was simply rebutting your points. Again, good play counters many of the things you are saying. Lose 8 to a single Eldritch storm? Are you thinking that they’ll run in a nice little group?

            I think you are seriously underestimating the threat range of those assault units and their own maneuverability.

            I’l bookmark this conversation. In a few months when Eldar are “among the best” and not “the only army that ever wins, and only with two units of wraithguard, a seer council, and a wraithknight” we’ll look back and see how our predictions turned out.

            I agree that these units are going to be very powerful for a mediocre or decent player who switches over to Eldar (or trades in their recently purchased serpents). But a Biel tan aspect list in the hands of an experienced player is going to mop the floor with them – and many other lists out there now. That is the real buff that this codex got.

          • abusepuppy April 30, 2015 6:27 pm
            #

            > Are you thinking that they’ll run in a nice little group?

            It’s a 10″ blast template. If your models are in coherency (and not strung out- which has its own disadvantages), it is likely to hit essentially all of the models in the squad.

            >I think you are seriously underestimating the threat range of those assault units and their own maneuverability.

            And i think you’re forgetting that you pull casualties from the front and can’t assault the turn you disembark from a tank. None of your Razor squads are ever gonna get to assault and the lone Death Company unit is either gonna get shot up on the approach or counter-assaulted by the Wraithknight (which you don’t have the tools to kill unless you give your whole Sternguard unit Combigravs.)

            >we’ll look back and see how our predictions turned out.

            Feel free to show me your winning record against Eldar with an army like that, I’d love to see it.

  23. xTHExCLINCHERx April 30, 2015 6:07 am
    #

    It only requires the 640 points ofk my Fellblade + Battle of Keylek to take them down 😀 haha 7″ S8 AP3 Ignores cover is all it takes… 🙁

    Now if that only left enough points to build the rest of the army… womp womp for us Space Marines.

    • Kartr April 30, 2015 7:33 am
      #

      Can’t put Battle of Keylek on a super heavy in ITC. Which is too bad because that would be great, especially with Chronus! The Typhon would also work magic against the bikes, S10 Ap1 large blast.

      You could put Battle of Keylek on a Vindicator, S10 Ap2 Large Blast with Ignores Cover 😀

      • Reecius
        Reecius April 30, 2015 11:37 am
        #

        It would be obscenely powerful to Ignore Cover on that thing, lol.

        • Kartr May 1, 2015 5:39 am
          #

          Yeah but it’s only 24″ range with AV13/11/10 so not that hard to kill.

  24. Recyrb April 30, 2015 9:58 am
    #

    Not sure if this has been mentioned, but I’d love for you to change the no eldar restriction. I’d like to see a good biel tan type force without all the jetbikes, and D weapon shenanigans go up against it and see what happens.

    • Sam April 30, 2015 10:48 am
      #

      I think the biel-tan force is going to be the real danger. A couple of jetbike units thrown in for scoring and cheap firepower will be great – maybe 2 or 3 squads of 5.

      I honestly don’t rate the wraithknight as worth the tradeoff for some of the more effective units you can take. I’d happily take his points in warp spiders, war walkers, dark reapers, scorpions, support weapon batteries, or even dire avengers (their firepower is pretty amazing for their cost).

      He’s going to survive almost every game, but he’ll basically only get his points back most of the time. Those other units have a much higher chance of punching above their weight class.

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 30, 2015 11:37 am
      #

      I am 100% open to playing Eldar vs Eldar, but it defeats the purpose of the challenge.

      • Recyrb April 30, 2015 8:13 pm
        #

        I thought the purpose of the challenge was to see if you could beat an eldar list full of the cheesiest cheese, and I wanted to see how an eldar list without said cheese would do.

        • Reecius
          Reecius April 30, 2015 10:25 pm
          #

          If someone beats Eldar with Eldar, that doesn’t prove much about the codex itself, though.

  25. droozy April 30, 2015 10:06 am
    #

    Did Reece lose the 2nd game? I didn’t get to watch the whole thing, didn’t look good for him

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 30, 2015 11:37 am
      #

      I won it on the last turn =) And yes, it was going bad.

      • droozy April 30, 2015 12:26 pm
        #

        Nice, good job bru. This challenge is the ONLY time I am rooting for Eldar

  26. Nightman April 30, 2015 11:21 am
    #

    @sam as a BA player i have to disagree, i think your best bet with assault theme is msu scouts 4/5×10 cc scouts combat squadded split the DC in small 5-6 man units. Only thing that is gonna do reliable dmg to WK is scout sarges with combi-gravs or grav bikes. Bring 5-6 of the 105 point assault squad Rhinos with meltas and try to surround DZ so mobility bonus is reduced. I think it’s best to drop psykers altogheter, tarpit WK and kill obsec and other soft targets. If you don’t bring anything expensive you can atleast mitigate the strength D.

    The suggestions above should be roughly 75 wounds and 6 rhinos opponent needs to chew through, if he has a bad turn 1 you should get quite a few squads into close combat.

    CAD for most of the obsec stuff and the FT formation to get more fast slots. With some luck and the right mission they have the best chanse of surviving through all the firepower.

    Razorbacks will not survive to do much, Baal will get one round of shooting if your lucky. A single Stormraven is more of a liability if your expecting other flyers, and it does not have that much firepower considering the the cost. If you fill it up with stuff there is good value for snapshotting it to death.

    The meta is probably going to be to figure out what Eldar list counters other Eldar and bring a counter to the Eldar counter list 🙂

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 30, 2015 11:38 am
      #

      That would be a fun game! Come by and throw down the gauntlet if you are able to do so!

    • Sam April 30, 2015 12:04 pm
      #

      Ok, this post I can get behind. My list was thrown out as an example of a threat, but I agree with your points. 3 x 5 man death company units would probably be more effective than a single 15 man. MSU is certainly the way to go here.

      My whole point is that there are builds that the Eldar (as currently netlisted / bandied about) will have a much harder time against. It’s certainly not a gimme, but it’s going to be very competitive.

  27. kent April 30, 2015 12:28 pm
    #

    Reece you should throw down the gauntlet to Frankie for a dress match instead of the $250 and see if the greatest 40k player can beat your Eldar.

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 30, 2015 12:56 pm
      #

      Haha, that would be some high stakes 40k!

  28. Nightman April 30, 2015 1:49 pm
    #

    Gauntlet is all the way back in Norway! Enjoying the stream though 🙂

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 30, 2015 2:36 pm
      #

      Ah, too bad! But, glad you are enjoying the streams!