Lias Issodon, Chapter Master of the Raptors and full time bad ass.
First of all, you can get his rules here. And, you can find the Raptors Chapter Tactics, here.
Lias is the Chapter Master of the Raptors, who are a descendant of the the Raven Guard chapter. They specialize in stealth, ambush and guerrilla tactics.
Besides being super cool, they are also really good. For their Chapter Tactics they get Scouts and Stealth on turn one (excepting bulky+ units). That’s not bad, and having the option to move into a better position, or outflank makes for very versatile armies. Secondarily though, they get a pretty cool ability. If they do not move, models with this chapter tactic can fire their Bolters and Bolt Pistols as heavy 1, Rending! Nice. While this will not always come into play, when it does, it makes your average bolter slinger a LOT deadlier. They become a threat up to armor 13 vehicles and can take a bight out of any toughness based target like Wraithknights and Riptides. Not bad!
Lias himself is not ultra impressive at first glance. Weighing in at 175pts, he is a bit pricey, but not bad. He is a marksmen so his BS is 6 and WS is 5. He also only has 3 attacks, but does have 4 wounds. He also does not have an invul save or Orbital Bombardment. He does have Artificer Armor for a 2+ though, so that makes up for it to a degree. In combat, all he packs is a Bolt Pistol and Power Sword. He can also be the only Chapter Master in your primary detachment and must be your warlord if taken. Not so impressive, right?
Well, don’t let his lack of punch fool you, he is an exceptional force multiplier.
First of all, he comes with a Locator Beacon which means any deep striking units you keep in reserve will not scatter coming in near him. On its own, this would be so-so, but he comes stock with arguably the best warlord trait in the game, Master of Ambush. Edit-This has been confirmed by Forge World as the 7th ed version of the rule. This is ridiculously good. It grants him and 3 other non-vehicle units Infiltrate. So, not only will he be in better position to use the Locator Beacon, it means you are assured to sneak 3 other units around the table. Centurions are the first and obvious use for this, but really, the opportunities to take advantage of this are incredible. We will get back to this, later.
He also comes with a baller Bolter. Malice is a salvo 2/4, 30″ bolter with all of the Sternguard special ammo and rending! Nice. A 2+ poison, rending shot on a BS6 platform or 4 rending shots is no joke!
He also allows you to reroll your reserve rolls like a comms relay! Again, awesome. In conjunction with the ability to infiltrate or Outflank units, this is really handy. It makes flyers much more reliable, too. But on top of this, he also imposes a -1 modifier to enemy reserve rolls. Excellent!
His other special ability is to inflict D6+3 wounds on an enemy unit, or D3 Haywire hits on an enemy vehicle before the game starts. That is savage! You could conceivably take out a critical enemy unit before they even get to use it. Imagine taking Fatweaver or a Waveserpant out of play before the first turn starts? Brutal!
Lastly, he comes with Shrouding. So useful.
So what you get is an incredible support character. He’s not the most powerful in terms of damage output, but, he can be the linchpin for building some really creative lists. As he grants infiltrate all over the place, you can use him to infiltrate Honor Guard, for example, and they have Shrouding and Stealth on the first turn. He himself doesn’t like combat much, but he can bring a unit into position. Centurions like to infiltrate a lot, as do Terminators. He can bring in deep striking units via his Locator Beacon as well, and once in position, will put out a steady stream of damage with his shooting.
With allies, he can infiltrate blobs of IG and give them great defense via shrouding. Ogryn, Blood Claws, Bikers, T-Wolves, etc. The possibilities are endless. As he also allows you to reroll reserves this is also excellent if you go second and you want to outflank units while simultaneously applying a negative modifier to enemy reserves.
He also allows Tactical Marines to essentially function like Scouts. By granting infiltrate and they already having Scouts, they can take the same role but with increased stats. Once in position, they can blast targets with rending bolters or move forward and double tap. You can build some excellent MSU scoring armies that overwhelm your enemy with targets and wherein each unit is very versatile in that they can impact almost any target on the table.
He also works incredibly well with the new Raven Guard “Decurion Detachment,” the Talon Strike Force!
Lias is a great character and certainly bears taking a close look at.
[yop_poll id=”14″]
Hello new best friend!
He’s a stud!
I would still take lysander any day!haha
Well it looks like it’s time to dust of the old marines. Great write up
He has a lot of utility, he’s a solid character.
Great write-up, I was not tracking that Lias had his WL a Trait updated to a Master of Ambush (previously it was Master of Maneuver), so that is a tremendous boon. One small thing, if you look at a Malice’s rules, he can use the Salvo 2/4 profile OR use Srenguard ammo, not both at once, which is disappointing, since shooting 4 Vengeance rounds with BS6 at 30″ would be quite potent.
Good point on the bolter, I misread it. Although, we did ask FW, and they did confer that the redning does work with special ammunition. So, Sternguard can use it if they hold still and only want to fire a single shot.
Locator beacon and infiltrate could be very nice for turn one deep strike grey knight allies
And drop pods, too!
What, no credit for showing you the light? 😉
Credit where its due, brotha, you did show me the updated rules for him! Much improved.
The warlord trait reference for him is still for 6th edition, in the new rulebook it sends you to the building damage chart. So the rule writers probably did not intend the 3 unit infiltrate power for him. It seems a bit of a stretch to use the rules until they’re updated.
I don’t know about that. Master of Ambush was a thing in 6th, and it still is now. Has it changed significantly (I no longer have my 6th edition books). Saying its a stretch because the page number is different would eliminate references in a lot of army books when an edition switches. Also, while it is a good ability and a defining power, I don’t believe it is really game breaking.
Acute sences for your scouts (old book) vs infiltrating 3 units (new book) is pretty different.
Good point
They actually updated his sheet this week I think, as I downloaded the file last week and he had this
Warlord: If Lias Issodon is part of an army then he will always be the army’s Warlord, regardless of the Leadership value of other HQ choices. He does not roll on the Warlord Traits table, but instead receives the Master of Manoeuvre Warlord trait (see page 111 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook)
so they meant for him to have it!!!!
Yes, because using anything that wasn’t printed this edition is silly. ONLY ever use 7E materials.
The fact that the page number reference is wrong is such a nitpicky, meaningless detail it’s pretty hard to argue based on that alone. His warlord trait doesn’t do the same thing it did last edition, but so what? Lots of rules change between editions and that doesn’t magically invalidate units with those rules. The Sniper rule changed between 6E and 7E, but no one argues that Eldar Pathfinders shouldn’t be used because of it.
I agree. The rule is identical in name, different in definition. That happens all the time. Orks got a much improved mob rule when fearless in combat got changed, and no one argued against that.
It’s the same rule name, just references and old page number.
Most of the time that it happens it does not have a specific page reference listed with the rule.
The update date of the file is listed in the file name “18-11-2013”. So this hasn’t been updated since Smarch 11th 2013….wait this is all British…November 18th 2013.
As far as I see, it fails both RAI and RAW, but I guess the heart wants what it wants.
fyi – They actually updated his sheet this week I think, as I downloaded the file last week and he had this
Warlord: If Lias Issodon is part of an army then he will always be the army’s Warlord, regardless of the Leadership value of other HQ choices. He does not roll on the Warlord Traits table, but instead receives the Master of Manoeuvre Warlord trait (see page 111 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook)
so they meant for him to have it
How do you make that argument, haha? Of course it isn’t RAI, they wrote that before the core rules changed. That happens all the time, though. Changing a USR that a unit had in the core book can suddenly make it amazing or terrible. We see it frequently. The only argument you could possible level against it is the faulty page reference. But then what? You say he has no Warlord Trait? That is hardly a reasonable solution. The path of least resistance in this case is to simply apply the new definition of the rule. The only reason it raises eyebrows in this case is because it is such a powerful ability.
I suppose giving in to your opponents point of view in a disagreement during a rules dispute is a path of least resistance.
However I don’t remember forgeworld SM chapter tactics being allowed in 6th edition tournaments until the 6th edition update came out for them. Those rules are currently filled with outdated references for game mechanics that no longer exist. So why is this such a cut and dry case now?
How does it fail RAI or RAW?
They intended him to have a rule called Master of Manouver. Look at the fluff for this chapter, and tell me it’s a rule that isn’t intended. For all you know, this was written for use with the 7th ed rule too. This is a chapter, where infiltration makes a lot of sense!
For RAW, how does your argument there work? RAW it references a warlord trait by name, and gives a page reference in the main rulebook. RAW interpretation would be to look there in the new book, realise the page reference is broken, then find the correct page for warlord traits, and check that one with this name still exists.
If a codex references the furious charge USR with the wrong page reference, would you immediately demand that they not use it?
That’s crazy!
Interpreting rules as written usually does not involve making assumptions and cross indexing pages. As I wrote before, USRs for the most part don’t have page references. If they do, GW releases a FAQ that says “now this reference is for that page and does this”. It’s not a timely process, but one that we abide by.
RAW doesn’t normally involve having a mandatory lobotomy, does it?
What does the 40k rulebook say about using rules with outdated references? Nothing? Then I guess you use your mind, and you use the new rules that are being referred to.
Rules As Written, we can’t just take away his assigned warlord trait, or replace it with an outdated version from an old core rulebook. If you think that’s RAW, then you have a problem.
RAW there is no solution, because the rule doesn’t work any longer. Obviously you disagree on what the most reasonable resolution is, but don’t act like using the new version of the rule is in any way against RAW or RAI. That’s your judgement call, because you apparently don’t want him to have this rule?
I don’t even have a horse in this race, I play chaos.
I’ve stated the reasoning why I don’t think it fits RAI or RAW, it’s not a judgement call. If community members band together and say “OK, it’s reasonable for him to use the new warlord trait.”, that’s the way he will be played. But it won’t be because his rules neatly fit into RAI or RAW.
There isn’t a clear RAW interpretation, is there?
1. He has no warlord trait, because the reference is broken. This isn’t RAW or RAI, as he’s clearly intended to have a warlord trait.
2. He uses the old warlord trait, because the reference is to the old book. This isn’t RAW or RAI, as GW have stated new rules replace old rules every time they’ve been asked. Further, it doesn’t reference the 6th ed rulebook.
3. He uses the new rule. Not RAW because the reference doesn’t line up.
4. He gets all the rules on the page referenced, as his warlord trait??
What do you think is RAW?
Frankly, it doesn’t seem like there is a good RAW. And that people don’t want the most reasonable interpretation, because it’s powerful.
As I said, I play chaos, so it’s no skin of my nose. So I don’t understand how someone can be so upset about that becoming his rule. What army do you play, Bogalubov? Ravenguard?
I talked to the guys at FW and they confirmed that it is indeed the 7th ed version of the rule.
Lias is a total badass, but note that Malice does NOT get four shots when using Special-Issue Ammo or the Raptors chapter tactic. In the former case, it specifically notes that the Ammo’s profile completely replaces Malice’s normal one, so the weapon will be Rapid Fire; in the latter case, the fire mode changes to Heavy 1, so he’ll only get one try with it.
He’s still very good because of his huge array of utility abilities, of course, but his personal shooting is middling.
Good point on malice. I misread that.
Reecius – awesome article !! Thanks for sharing.
Glad you liked it =)
I’ve always wondered why i didn’t hear more about him – he was one of the things i thought about bringing to the LVO Last year (2014).. since you can do so much with him, as a force multiplier..
I think (correct me if i’m wrong) you could eve do a reserve denial list with him, if you add Allies that also have reserve reduction abilities. Keep those flyers off the board for a while while you can lay into them a bit.
Great Article on a hidden gem Reece – I had seen Adam talking about him on B&C for months now.. very cool all around!
…now I’m back to my old Debate, do i want to do a straight Raven Guard Army or Raptors.. oh the horror..
Thanks, glad you liked it! Yeah, Adam turned me onto his new rules, actually and I was blown away by how much better he had gotten.
The gears are turning in my head right now.
And Ig Blob Squad with him in there
Plus an inquisitor
Then Vect for a rerolling of STI
and then a knight…..OHHH!!!! I can infiltrate a knight too
Can’t infiltrate vehicles, actually, but, he is awesome!
Another thing to consider. Take a Company command suad with master of the Fleet so your opponent suffers another -1 to reserves
Nice one! Or take a Damocles Command Rhino to add or subtract 1 to any reserve rolls, gain an Orbital Bombardment, and teleport beacon. That’s some serious reserves control.
There are a few other decent characters as well. Loth is obviously kind of OP, with guarenteed Invisibility, 2+ invulnerable, ML3, etc for cheap. There’s the Minotaurs chapter master in there, who’s basically just another way of getting an Eternal Warrior 2/3+ 4W character in your list. There’s a tank commander character who grants all the SM transports in his detachment a 5+ invulnerable save, and gives his BS as well as Tank Hunters to the transport he is embarked in.
Of course, most of the rest of the characters are terrible.
There are a ton of awesome characters in there. Lloth isn’t OP, IMO, Be’Lakor is way better and comes with Invis, too.
Loth actually lost his 2++ ability in 7th :/
How so?
It says he can expend a warp charge at the beginning of his turn, but you don’t get warp charges until the psychic phase.
Ah yeah, we play it as he does it in the psychic phase as that is when it occurs, now. RAW vs. RAI, but an easy one, IMO.
I’m all for some RAI, haha
Great write up Reece! Got a few questions though.
1. The pre-game hits… Can you allocate the wounds/haywire hits on units left in reserves?
2. If so, how would it act against a flyer?
3. Does Legendary Marksman (can’t move in the movemebt phase) override rules like “Relentless” or “Slow and purposeful”?
4. Also, if you infiltrate Lias with centurions, does it count as 1 or 2 units for the purposes of the : “warlord and 3 non vehicle units may infiltrate”
Let’s hear the people!
1 – the rule actually says to distribute the shots as if from the “nearest unit in Issidon’s force” which I think indicates its only stuff on the board.
2 – I wouldn’t think it could hit flyers in reserve
3 – I think in an email to Forge World it was clarified that even if they have relentless or S&P they’d need to stand still to get the benefits of rending.
4- this one I’m not sure about..
Thanx Nimrod! I actually agree in all of them! One thing though, if we take FW’s e-mails seriously, they also said you could use the special ammo of the sternguards, and the LM’s rules, which is weird, because you could use the ignores coverplus the rendind (I read it in a B&C long post).
Those two would probably have to be a TO decision – I’d be all for it if I could get rending on bikes though.. all the time .. rending bolters… sounds fantastic..
I think the relentless thing I got on B&C as well..
The only one I’m sure of is the Isolate, Infiltrate, and Destroy thing.. 🙂
FW said explicitly that Sterguard special ammo works with Legendary Marksmen. So you do indeed get the ebenfit of both if you hold still.
Nimrod answered most of them and number 4 depends on how you read the rule. Per RAW, it would take 2 units to do that, per RAI and the way LVO, BAO, Adepticon, FoB, Da Boyz, etc. play it, an IC can take a unit with him (but not another non-infiltrating IC) so it would take 1.
I thought warlord traits only applied to the detachment they are in?
And battle brothers.
Bring this guy. Kill Bel’akor before the game (low odds but possible). Winning….
But seriously, fun rules.
I always hoped for the hail marry haywire shots on the imperial knight…
… demoralization!
Unless , of course, he’s in ruins or he jinks for the 2+ cover.
..but.. but.. if it works imagine the look in their eye as they remove 300is points off the table!
I’d almost try that every game and say I got a moral victory.
..mind you I’m a terrible tournament player lol
Or just in the open and Jinks for a 2+ save =P But the real question is, can he jink before the game starts at all? That is a weird one.
It doesn’t ignore cover so yeah, that is a bummer.
Yeah, he’s really fun. Brings a lot of cool tricks to the table.
I’m surprised you haven’t tried him in the past Reece he seems tricky and right up your ally
… we call for Issodon batreps!
At least people will think twice when deploying stuff on the table. If they decide to place them in reserves, they’ll suffer the -1 penalty.
Pretty good I think!
Great rules to represent HH Alpha Legion in 40k.
And again a way to play that is different and fun but not obviously OP. I’m quite liking this 7E variety.
Yeah, I agree. I really dig all the awesome ways to play the game.
Wow, trust Forgeworld to get raptors right. I wish this could combo with the Ravenguard CT so I could infiltrate some vanguard vets up. Oh well.
I know, right?! Haha, this is waaaay better.
I continue to be incredibly annoyed with GW’s foolishness with Ravenguard. I could totally see using the Raptor’s CT with Ravenguard paint scheme and not feel too weird. This dude is basically EXACTLY what I would want to make it work. I’d love to move him up with a unit of honorguard. They are GREAT bargains and since he’s a CM, I can take ’em. Just a LOT more flavorful than what I can do with Ravenguard. Just SO stupid that I can’t scout move jumpers, but CAN scout up rhinos (!?!?!??!?!?!!?!!!!?!??!??!?!?!?!?!).
Yeah, I agree. This creates a stealthy, sneaky, special-ops feel for the army that I really dig.
Its true GW doesn’t really know what to do with sneaky – Its stupid they made it so Jump Packs can’t scout up…
.. I think they wanted to avoid the Terminator abuse of last codex, but still..
Wow, the ideas are churning through my head. Love this model!
Two questions. First, these rules are updated for seventh now? The forgeworld link says 6th edition… just want to avoid a potential dispute if I try using some of these characters. Second, do most events allow these chapters/characters, or do they fall under the blanket of all forgeworld things, meaning up to the TO.
Thanks for the article! there are a ton of cool things in there and the forgeworld models for Red Scorpions make me want to dump money into them but wanted to clear up those two aforementioned points first.
Hey Tooze, those are good questions.
Tournaments are allowing them, yes. We have for years and Adepticon is now, too. It is increasing all over the place, they’re just good fun!
And yes, lots of “6th ed stuff is still used in 7th, even 5th ed stuff (Necrons, for example). These rules still work fine in 7th ed.
And yeah, Red Scorpions are pretty cool! FnP on all your Tacticals is awesome and Carab Culln is a stud.
So does Culln still use the old smash rule even though it’s changed in the main rulebook?
Reece might have a judgment call – but I think the wording is that Culln has smash, which makes him AP 2..
Red Scorpions are my go to chapter lately, with how the game is really about mitigating losses the RS survivability is super good..
Maybe something like this?
Lias Issodon: 175
9 Honour Guard: 275
6 Power Mauls, 2 Power Axes, Thunder Hammer,
Chapter Banner
10 Scouts: 125
Bolters
Sarge: Combi-melta, Meltabombs
10 Scouts: 125
Bolters
Sarge: Combi-melta, Meltabombs
10 Scouts: 125
Bolters
Sarge: Combi-melta, Meltabombs
10 Scouts: 125
Bolters
Sarge: Combi-melta, Meltabombs
10 Scouts: 125
Bolters
Sarge: Combi-melta, Meltabombs
10 Scouts: 125
Bolters
Sarge: Combi-melta, Meltabombs
Stormtalon: 125
Skyhammer ML
Stormtalon: 125
Skyhammer ML
Stormtalon: 125
Skyhammer ML
10 Devastators: 180
4 Multimeltas
10 Devastators: 180
4 Multimeltas
Whirlwind: 65
2000 pts
Whirlwind is just there because I had 65 pts left. I couldn’t think of anything more productive for the points (which is saying a lot, because whirlwinds are poo).
I like that I would null deploy and then put down 90 models as infiltrators and then scout move them. Lots of rending bolter shots can work wonders on a variety of targets. Should be one rend each from the 6 scout squads. So, I could drop a wraithknight with scout shooting!?!?!? LOL.
The Honor Guard is a beatstick unit that will mess up most things in melee, but thanks to rending on their bolters and shrouding, they can just sit and put a few pot shots into things and not fret too much!
The Devastators being up close and personal is hilarious as well, since the bolters rend, they can actually DO something lots of targets so the shots aren’t even wasted! 😀
How about a shooty deathstar instead – like 3-4 grav Centurions. In fact, I think you could swap the Honour Guard and Whirlwind for a 4-man Centurions squad without affecting total pts cost.
As a Raptor player I like the list, but I think Tactical Marines would beneficit more from the Chapter tactics and Lias Warlord Trait in that case.
Just my two cents!
I know cents are all the rage, I just don’t like ’em. My whole rationale for wanting to play Ravenguard is their style and ethos, Cents just don’t fit that IMO. I like to have competitive lists that fit the fluff, which is pretty stupid I know, but it is who I am.
To think CSM gets Fabius Bile as it’s support star (arguably Ahrimann or Huron as well…)
Why can’t FW just do a couple Chaos chapters???
I know what will i have as allies for my flesh tearers…. 30 death company infiltrating
Nice!
Glad you like the idea reecius, while certainly not the smartest thing to do vs some armies (*cough*IK*cough*) imagine having to deal with 30 blood crazed psychopaths in one turn of shooting? Even if only 10 survive that is around 40ish CCW attacks with rerolls to hit and wound plus some THs and powerfists. Basically my idea is to have him and 5 raptor tacticals and as primary detachment reclusiarch (i am a flesh tearer so i don’t use mephy, and T6 won’t mean a tbing vs gravs if i don’t have the bodies to hide him in
Perhaps make a battlereport with something similar?
I think that would be quite good, actually, and if you have sufficient fists/hammers/melta bombs you will take a Knight down…then you just needs to survive the ensuing explosion!
And I would be happy to do that in a bat rep but I have no Death Company models.
I am playing tommorow with that list, probably vs whitescars led by khan, or raptors bolterspam, will post a brief result of how ot went
Major defeat, but only because i didn’t brought enough “sane” flesh tearers (NO SUCH MARINES EXIST, ONLY non DC flesh tearers). But if i managed to pull off the charge with DC dreadnought, that would really save me lots of trouble (and no, i didn’t forgot fleet, even with fleet i failed charge)
good sides. Opponent poured UNHOLY amounts of firepower in DC and even when few (3) assaulted dDevastator centurions(4 of them) they were BRUTALIZED
Ouch!
I’m in a 3 out of 3 winning strike with Lias Issodon. I’m planning to take him in an incoming tournament here in Spain. The list I’m bringing is sometning like this:
Lias Issodon
Librarian lvl 2, bike, force axe, melta bombs
10 Tactical marines with melta, combi-melta, melta bombs in Drop pod
10 Tactical marines with melta, combi-melta, melta bombs in Rhino w/dozerblade
5 Tactical marines with melta, combi-melta, melta bombs in Rhino w/dozerblade
5 Tactical marines with melta, combi-melta, melta bombs in Rhino w/dozerblade
5 Scouts with shotguns, sgt with melta bomb in LS storm
5 Scouts with shotguns, sgt with melta bomb in LS storm
5 Assault squad, 2 flamers in Drop Pod
5 Assault squad, 2 flamers in Drop Pod
4 Devastator Centurions with gravs and missile launchers
Like I said, I won 3 out of 3 games. Not very sharp lists though, but still.
The infiltrate isolate and destroy rule has been awesome. Forced people to reserve stuff, and then used the -1 on them, or made a Land Raider start with only 2HP!
Awesome sauce! Thanx Reece! I’ll keep you guys in touch
Nice, that looks like a fun list! Glad to hear you did so well, I will have to steal some of your ideas!
I’d love to see a batrep of the Raptors. Btw, how did you model Lias Issodon? Been searching through the net and saw lots of nice conversions.
I have been using a proxy for him, haven’t decided how to model him just yet.
I placed 2nd in the tournament! It was awesome! Lias is top. Btw, I made a pretty nice conversion of him. Chech it out here!
http://www.gordoxenos.blogspot.com
Nice conversion! Your army looks awesome, and well done at the event.
Ah I forgot my 3 Scout bikers with combi-grav and melta bombs.
That makes 1800p
Hey Reece. Just wondering how did you model Lias Issodon?
Hi there,
Bit of thread-o-mancy here, but we’ll see how we go.
Great article, but I just wondered where you got the part about using Lias in the talon strike force. I agree that their abilities combo very nicely (Lias wants an infiltrate-heavy army, and the TSF benefit of rerolling for first turn mitigates some of the weaknesses of infiltrators relying on going first). But the TSF is specified as “Raven guard only”, and Lias is a raptor.
FW has apparently okayed using other FW characters in place of their equivalents in the codex battle company, but as far as I can tell Lias couldn’t go into a TSF because he’s a raptor, not a Raven guard. Of course, you can just ally Lias into a CAD, but given that he has to be a warlord that defeats the point of the TSF.
I would love to be proven wrong on this though, as (like you say) I think they have great synergy.
I WISH you could use Lias in the TSF, that would be absolutely incredible. But, GW doesn’t even let you take Pedro Kantor in the Imperial Fists detachment and he’s essentially the same chapter =(
Darn it! That’s the answer I was expecting, but not the one I was hoping for. Cheers for the clarification.
PS, maybe if we vote for pedro, all our wildest dreams will come true? 😉