7th ed is here! Frankie busts out a crazy, super high warp charge Daemons army to see how crazy summoning spam is, and Josh plays his Imperial Mash up army hoping to use Maelstrom mission cards to his advantage to level the playing field. And, before anyone asks, we were NOT playing that Horrors could summon. Check out the Tactics Corner for more video bat reps.
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81 Responses to “Warhammer 40K 7th ed Video Bat Rep Daemons vs Imperials”
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First Bat Rep of yours I’ve actually watched (usually just listen while driving after consuming all the current 40k pod casts out there… I have a two hour-ish round trip commute)
Not sure what to take away… first of all, “you’re saying there’s a chance!” Imperials tied it up! But dang, 4k, that’s a lot of extra stuff coming onto the board. Good ole 7th.
Having seen it go a couple times, if there was to be a limit on Warp Charge a turn what feels right? 10? 12? 15?
Complete side note: love the terrain (and the megamat). Anywhere I can find a DIY guide for that
10 warp charges per turn means GK’s cant activate their force weapons….yay!
Why was there so much screaming? Did I miss something in the Maelefic powers that say you have to yell throughout the magic phase? Ill keep reading
Thanks for visualizing the effect of summoning all those deamons. I wondered how that would go down.
Can i Just ask please where can you buy those dice? I’m looking for dice like that.
You can buy they from Frontline Gaming of course.
http://www.frontlinegaming.org/product-category/game-aid/dice/
Oh d’oh, sorry… I really shouldn’t ask questions at 7 am (GMT +1) on a sunday. Thanks! Alas, they are sold out… Will have to check back later.
We just got more back in stock, shoot your order to: Orders@FrontlineGaming.org
Thanks, Blackmoor!
that was a lot of dice rolled, with two perils and .. no failed summons turn one… what are the chances?
the demon summoning is quite nuts , gotta say, but, if I was rolling, I could have failed every summons… in fact theres a better chance to fail all those than make em all.
Gotta get some games in but I’m in travel mode till almost the end of june. be interesting to see grey knights vs demons??
massive psychic phase crazy talk:)
It did look like an epic game though, not great for tourney’s[though speed of play could easily speed up]
…just… so much good luck on summons for frankie…cripes:)
Exactly! That first turn was all luck. He beat the odds and in one game didn’t prove anything other than the dice get hot. I don’t think we should ignore the one person that pointed out that if you don’t have the models to represent, then you don’t get to place. I get the point they were trying to make but if someone wants to buy 10 or more boxes of Daemons, paint them up, and summon them; more power to them. BTW, you’re doing exactly what GW wants you to do. Remember the Flamer and Screamer reboot? I think that lasted less than half a year, so expect the same here if not sooner.
I guarantee GW erratas all the powers to limit casting anything that is not either less than or equal to your ML; so no more Pink Horror factories. Another alternative would be to add rules that work similar to the Tervigon; i.e. any successful role that included double 4, 5, or 6 stops any further casting for that Psyker or Unit. Again, that is after all the suckers go out and buy endless amounts of Daemons.
It wasn’t crazy good luck…
With 5 dice it’s exactly 50/50 to pass.
With 6 dice it’s 2/3 pass.
He had better than average luck (he did fail some spells), the rues are just shite for letting you get nearly 40 dice…
Fine, he did exactly what he needed to do. I say again, if you want to be the person that buys 10 boxes of daemon troops to pull this off because you don’t think you can win a tournament without doing so, grats on being that guy.
I honestly scoff at summoning and as long as I can bring Knights, LoWs, or anything else with massive amounts of templates, I will lol every time I remove 3-4 units per turn when someone wants to pull these shenanigans.
I didnt play to the best of my abilities either though. I had spells to summon screamers which would destroy knights quickly as well as bloodthirsters which I could have summoned 3 lol. Its just crazy that you can add more points to your list mid game.
I don’t know how either of those units would have helped.
1) Your odds of even glancing a Knight with with S5/Armourbane is well below 50%
2) Since a Bloodthirster causes you to lose a Herald or a BHoP unit (thus lowering your WC pool) and you can only do 1 Smash attack per round; it wouldn’t survive long enough to kill a Knight as again you would need insanely lucky dice to get the 7+ to cause D3 extra HP’s.
Why don’t you guys do a full Batrep (dice rolls and all) with this silly Daemon Summoning army against someone who can make a better list than what was presented in this video. It was so obvious this guy was just playing what he played in the previous edition. Get someone who can beef up an Army with the new FoC rules, and lets see some real shenanigans. Because, if Daemon Summoning is the newest broken thing, I am sure there are plenty of combinations out there that don’t even need Psykers to counter it.
6 dice is 50/50
I mathed it out this AM.
But think of it logically, 50% on one dice, 6 dice for 3 successes, should be equally likely to get 3 fails when their probability per single die roll is equivalent.
nm! Math is right, I’m wrong…. just realized my mistake.
He rolled better than average. That certainly doesn’t mean that you can’t reliably pass 4 summon checks a turn with 38 dice. And he rolled about the right number of Perils for the number of dice rolled. Trust me, I’ve done the math. It should be pretty obvious how powerful it is without falling into the logical fallacy of “well, that shouldn’t have happened, even though it did”. Rolling on average, Frankie should have “only” gotten, say, an extra 300pts per turn rather than 450pts per turn. Totally balanced.
BTW, how about this for curbing dispel dice: You can’t roll more dice to Deny than the player rolls to cast the power. Or maybe the number of dice plus one per extra mastery levels you have over your opponent’s psyker.
Hmmm, “the math”. In the first turn, he attempted 5 summonings. He periled once, so about right. But he never failed to summon rolling 6,6,6,5,5 dice.
So .6563*.6563*.6563*.5*.5 = ~.07 chance of this happening on any given turn. That is hardy a typical result, not impossible (obviously!) but certainly not normal or expected.
How powerful was it really? He didn’t even win the game. He created a bunch of troops that contested a few objectives. Obviously an army with a single Knight did just fine against them. Imagine how an army with an LoW and/or Aquila Stronghold would have helped? Yup, because those are now legal. The SM player didn’t even have Terminators, Flyers, Land Raiders, TFC, etc.
Basically, with the flood gates open and the “anything goes” approach GW took, I don’t see how this isn’t the most balanced edition yet. I know that sounds absolutely fucking crazy. But, if everyone can bring whatever they want, NO ONE will have the best list, because eventually someone is going to run into something that will just beat them. Luck is going to play a bigger role than ever in the game and whats wrong with that?
In short, this edition feels like the “Texas Hold’em” of WH40k. Grizzled vets can build some broken lists and face a n00b with an equally broken list, and they just have to see how the dice fall.
“…and they just have to see how the dice fall.” < No thank you. The less my 'decisions', such as they are, impact the outcome of the game, the less interested I am. Am I a General or Autarch or Chaos Lord marshaling my forces into battle? No, I'm a flipping actuary doing risk analysis and rolling dice and crossing my fingers that I will draw the 'right' card. Yippee!
I have to respectfully disagree with your assessment, No_Wegian. This is the least balanced edition of the game yet, but with some restrictions, could be a ton of fun.
My thought is a FAQ for the Daemons codex stating who can take daemonology could be the easiest fix. Say if the only models with access to summoning we’re greater daemons or named daemons it would kill the heralds spawning hundreds of troops.
+1, or was it legion 😉
I have to say that I totally agree with you on this one. If people want to spam that hard, same as with examples of hordes of heldrakes, riptides and so on. Like seriously buying all that stuff just to be able to win I pity them..
That it will shake up the meta, no doubt. But it’s been normal in fantasy for years that if you can’t be the best in the magic phase you need to get the tools to stop it. 40k will now have to learn the same and obviously in a hard way as it seems like it’s impossible to please the majority of the vocal internet crowd.
Peace out and remember, it’s still just a game, which you play for fun..and if it ain’t fun go do something else 😉
I think it will be fun if we just limit the amount of warp charge you can use. Easy fix.
Before you seriously consider capping WC, I would suggest you review these posts. They make some stellar points.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/596699.page#6890549
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/596699.page#6894007
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/596699.page#6891055
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/596699.page#6890317
Watching this, I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry.
Everyone will now need to build lists with powers in mind, but to me seems like its ether all or nothing due to the dice difference.
WFB moved away from dice per magic level for this reason, you can just spam lists for dice. The way dice are generated needs to be different not just a cap on dice.
Also the difference for casting and dispelling is massive (if I am not the spell target), if my opponent casts with 3 passes I need to use 18 dice on average to stop…..
I am going to keep an eye on 40k but can see giving this edition a miss as is
Wow, that report was educational alright.
See where I am when the book was released I tried to mention “Guys, you know you can all do this and it’s kinda totally unbalanced to all hell right?”, jeers of “Oh your wrong! It’s balanced!”
It’s as balanced as a lumpy country road in the arse end of yorkshire! (It’s a dark and dangerous place….think Mordor but with more orcs)
I’ve been considering sitting out on 7th ed, and I liked 6th! I thought 6th for the most part was a fun ride. But 7th seems to be “Hey! We’re going to charge you £50 for a rulebook, to tell you that there are no rules!” Marketing screwed the pooch there.
How is it unbalanced? If the rule is “everything goes”, then no one has the best list. Luck is now the deciding factor. After all, it is a game of dice. It may be crazy, but not unbalanced.
If you are allowed to take whatever you want with no restrictions it will not be a fun game. Can you imagine playing a game against a unit of all farseers? or in that case 2 units of all farseers with crazy psychic powers? or how about 6 riptides? or 6 wraithkngihts. It may be balanced because everyones lists are broken but it creates a game that is no longer tactical nor fun.
Yes, I can imagine that game and bringing what I want to try and stop it. I am no longer restricted by poor writing of army rules where my codex units that should supposedly be “balanced” against my opponents units; i.e. Heavy Support vs. Heavy Support, or Elite vs. Elite; now I can bring something closer where maybe my Elite vs. his Heavy is more balanced or vice versa.
Tell me what you guys could possibly do to the current rules that would make Tyranids have the slightest chance against Eldar or Tau? You want to talk about balance start with the friggin’ codexes first. Leave the BRB alone!
Worth pointing out that as summoned units are not bought with your primary detachment, and therefore don’t benefit from the objective secure rule (so they can’t contest troops with the objective secure rule, and can be contested by units without the objective secure rule).
Troof.
I had no idea from earlier bat reps that you would join the terrain together with bridges. I am utterly in awe. Where can I give you my money to be signed up for the next one?
Hit me up at Contact@Frontlinegaming.org and I can give you a quote!
Don’t psychics give a bonus to deny the witch? And a better bonus if their level is higher?
Not against. Blessings and Conjourations!
GW rules for their own events – kinda a good read:
http://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/2014/05/24/new-warhammer-40000-rules-and-our-events-in-2014/
Shure it limits allies, but it this daemon list is till valid.
Or am I missing something
Here’s what I took away from that battle report: Daemons had hot dice the first couple of turns in addition to having the advantage of playing against an army that was unprepared to play against a psyker heavy army. In spite of this, the marine player, who didn’t have a list that was actively trying to break the game like the daemon’s list was, managed to pull out a draw thanks to the new tactical cards, which seemed somewhat designed to balance the exact scenarios that were shown.
Daemons are declared broken (even though they only managed a draw in a situation that would’ve been a complete massacre in 6th), and tactical cards are derided as somewhat unfair and possibly crippling. IMHO, the worst part of this game was the ridiculously long amount of time it took to play. If I were on the other side of the table from the daemons I would’ve been more upset at the fact that his dice apparently came straight from a fire.
+1
I could have cast plenty of things that could have whipped him out a lot faster but I plain forgot because I was on a summoning hype haha. It was a terribly boring game and took far to long. It may be balanced but would people honestly want to play against lists like this? sure you can win but would it be fun for you?
It actually looked like an awesome game, I’d love to play against a full scale demonic incursion, it totally tickles the fluff bunny in me:).
It also looks like it takes too long with inexperienced players, [for their lists;P]
I know guys that could play 200 orcs and get a game done quickly and I’ve played against a 4 riptide list that took 3 hours.
Maybe it would get stale after a few runs, but at the moment, I’m jonesing to play against a demon summon army.
You could have cast those spells but you didn’t because you guys were focused on intentionally breaking the game, and in the end you kind of didn’t. And I’m sorry, but the major outcry from 6th was that it wasn’t balanced, so now you’re getting balance that can potentially allow an army played smartly to win even in a bad draw, and then you want to talk about whether or not it’s fun? It wasn’t fun because you took a game breaking list on purpose, but in the end couldn’t force the victory even with above average rolling, so doesn’t that actually bode well for this edition?
I’m sorry, I really enjoy this website and the battle reports and perspectives and everything, but I would’ve much rather preferred a serious battle report testing out a more likely scenario in 7th instead of one that was intentionally trying to create an exploit.
So much this it’s not even funny! +100 CKuno
Please try and remember, we weren’t trying to break the game, we saw a rule that seemed too powerful and wanted to try it out in reality to see if that is the case, and it was.
That would not be a fun game to play regularly at all, it took almost 6 hours to finish.
We did take this seriously, it wasn’t to prove anything or not. As you noted, the game was a draw. We were just seeing what would happen.
I’m sorry Reecius, but it feels like you were trying to break the game considering that the video opens with daemons player saying “I think we broke 7th edition already,” and then claiming that they were OP at the end of the match even though they didn’t get the runaway victory that a broken list should. Compound that with the text at the end of the video stating that the mechanic that allowed the marine player to stay competitive in the game was unfair, and I don’t really see an objective assessment of the new rules in this video. And I have to stress again that the reason the game was not fun was because of the daemon list that you guys created specifically to try to exploit the new daemonology school.
Again, great respect to the site, FLG and everything you do for the hobby, but as industry leaders (and I’ve already seen numerous references to this video across the internet with people acting like this is proof that 7th edition is broken), I would have preferred the first 7th edition battle rep to have been something more along the lines of what people would actually see in their FLGS.
But, of course, you don’t owe me anything, that’s just my personal preference.
No worries, dude, no offense taken. We’re just trying to see what happens, too. We do come with some pre-conceived notions for sure, but that is unavoidable.
Pink horrors need an FAQ as they were written with 6th ed in mind. They’re ML1 no matter how many models they take but generate extra warp charges. It’s not 100% clear how they interact with the new psychic phase but either way daemons control the psychic phase – that’s fine, really. I second the notion that wysiwyg be enforced for summoning, just as it is for tervigon spawning. That will curb a lot of the douche factor.
Good point, horrors are ML1, regardless of unit size. How are people saying ML1 horrors are casting WC3 powers?
I don’t think you are limited in that way anymore when it comes to selecting and casting powers above your mastery level.
The horrors didn’t summon the daemons, the heralds, princes, and fate weaver did. Even if he didn’t summon a unit of horrors, he still started the game with 35 dice. That’s enough to summon a significant amount of reinforcements turn 1and shift the power balance of the game.
I got a fix,limited the dice pool to say 10.
when its one player with an 1850 list against a player with a 5850 list, it is not balanced, and i imagine not fun
a list with lots of psychic guys who’s only job is to summon more guys… all of which are pretty crappy and don’t have the objective secured ability.
it becomes quality vs quantity which, for me, is pretty fun:)
…except that the Daemon player didn’t even win! I’d hardly call that unbalanced. An experienced Marine player (or Tau!) would do very well against Daemon Factory. Imagine the parties the Fire Warriors throw as T3 models DS into Rapid Fire range every turn! The Warriors don’t even have to leave their cover to kill masses of enemies!
And the Broadsides…http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pXfHLUlZf4
Yeah I think a good house rule with horrors until GW gives an official stance is they get their extra dice only when they themselves cast. And that they can’t go malific. Wont nerf the summon battery completely but make it a bit more manageable.
I just wanna know how it started with 35 dice. Need to see a list.
I counted 22 MLs
6 units of pink horrors which were mastery 2. 4 hearlds all level 3. 2 deamon princes level 3, and Fateweaver level 4.
Comically, all of those daemons melt to dedicated CC or a heldrake. You need to play more games guys.
Sure, summon 80 pink horrors, and have them die to a heldrake or a Necron Chariot lord (which they can’t even hurt).
yup bring in the spawn, juggerlord and heldrakes. we saw how the contemptor ate the daemonettes
And what you wanna say with that now? You can summon a Bloodthirster which will eat the contemptor or you can just spawn some screamers or fiends You dont get alot of attacks out of it but its enough to kill this things theoretically and not to show the most imbalanced list daemons can build now. This is a list that just shows how many stuff you can get on the table and the report shows how stupid the mission cards are. Its a draw where most of the SM is wiped out.
I’ve won games of 5th where I had 3 models left and one against an almost undamaged army.
I won a store tornament against a waac force that abused forgeworld eldar in early 6th with an unoptimised DE force with almost no area or los terrain, going second, got hard alpha struck, rolled poorly, killed 4 guys and was down to 8 models left…and won.
Heck, I’ve won games with ONE model left.
once again as with EVERY EDITION OF THE GAME stick to the objectives and play smart and you can win. No matter how many guys your opponent has. No matter how many guys you have left. No matter how WAAC the list. No matter how hot or cold the dice.
Reece, you mention the terrain used in this battle is available for purchase. What are the details for that?
Hit me up at: Contact@FrontlineGaming.org
last time I checked the deamons codex specifies which powers they can take from. so unless there s a faq than they can t summon. codex rules override brb rules.
Except the BRB specifically says “Unless otherwise specified, ALL psykers can access the Daemonology discipline,” so while codex trumps rulebook, the codex would have to *specifically* say “This psyker can’t take Daemonology powers” in order to overwrite what the rulebook specifically allows (that *everyone* can take them).
that s interpretation. it doesn t have to say “can t take deamonology” it just has to state otherwise. And their codex is very clear on what they can take. emphasis on can take, which is “stating otherwise”…I m playing devil s advocate here. I could care less if you want to summon deamons, kill your psyker, and spend all your money on deamonettes and such. There s a counter to everything.
lol. I actually think no one has access to the new powers since there codexes have charts on which they are allowed to derive their powers. where does it say in the deamons codex that they can manifest from the new powers. lol. raw.
If you buy the Psychic power cards there is a chart listing them all for each army. Daemons can take Malefic.
This was really cool to see. I had emailed you guys in the hope that you’d do a summoning army.
I’d just like to point out that 1. He went into the game with a self imposed handicap. 2. All he pretty much summoned was Daemonettes. 3. I didn’t see any additional Heralds summoned which can in fact be level 2 and summon as well. Also I don’t think he upgraded any of his Daemonettes to having the free character upgrade.
So yeah you may be like ” Oh well this and this will kill that”. Yeah, that was just someone messing around and seeing what they could do. I’m sure if he wanted to he could have summoned some things that would not have been pleasant.
For a game that was showing off how OP the malefic powers are I was a little disappointed! You spent so much effort on getting more models on the board you didn’t have the ability to actually hurt his tough units (ie Knight). Even if you had summoned screamers, they still need an 8 to glance (no longer melta bombs, I heard you back there Reece!). You did have some good rules early in the game and the huge amount of terrain didn’t hurt. I’d love to see you play the daemon spam army against another top tier list on a more typical board layout for terrain! Overall the game actually looked a lot more fun than against some of the 6e uber armies, especially since you still had to win by playing the game, not just vontron-ing out on turn 5 with a deathstar.
We were just figuring out how it worked, really. It was a surprise to us, too.
The cards are not functional for competitive play. They’re not really functional, really. They are too random. The player that draws the better hand on turn 1 has won the game every time in our experience so far. 100% of the time, lol.
And that list wasn’t the end all be all of Daemons, it was our fist crack at a Daemon Factory.
Haven’t read the rules but if you would say put a cap on how many times a power could be cast per turn that would solve a lot.
For instance cast all your powers once before casting the same power again. Casting the summoning once or twice per turn is not to overpowered.
There’s no real reason to take Fateweaver in a Daemonstar over someone like Belakor or just more things to get more summoning points. He gives you a reroll but you don’t really havea unit that’s running around desperately needing it.Just my opinion
So far after a few games this seems like great edition for casual play. It rewards balanced, troop heavy lists. A player who gets his army pounded into the dirt can still when with lucky cards and smart play. The best part about card games is luck decides any individual game but skill determines long term success. Seems like they nudged things in this direction.
Of course all of that is lousy for tournaments. But there are good fixes.
1) Just ban the malefic rule power tree in tournaments. Done. Sure you can still bring 30 dice worth of psychic charge but the benefit to that rapidly diminishes.
2) Tweak the cards. Maybe let players choose to roll on the objective half of the cards and the ‘other’ cards. Or have a strict balance between the two. Auto-reroll cards that could never be achieved, e.g. destroy a building versus a player with none.
3) Mix missions types as the BAO format has done before.
I think the cards provide rich ground for new missions types.
On the demon psychic table any double is perils not just 6’s so he perils a lot more than he claimed.
Daemons ignore that rule.
I have always viewed anything in the game that adds points to an army mid game as Game breaking. Tervigons, Portal Glyphs, Skyblight Gargoyles, etc. all break the core game mechanic of each player playing with the same number of points (which in theory relate to resources)
It is utterly IMPOSSIBLE to have a fair game when one side has more resources that the other. This summoning concept has basically taken this imbalance to a new level of stupid.
Regardless of how this game turned out, the take away has to be that one player can now legally bring more points to the table than their opponent. This means any shed of fairness has been removed from the game. I really hope either an FAQ, or TO ruling fixes this huge flaw in the fundamental structure of a points based game system.
That’s a pretty poor understanding of how Summoning works.
With Daemons, especially, you’re dedicating the points of the Psykers into summoning. So when I pay 180pts for a Horror unit, ALL IT DOES is try to summon another unit. It doesn’t shoot or assault. It sits (hopefully on an objective) and casts one power.
That’s it.