We’re Not Prepared to Repel Firepower of that Magnitude!

trap

 

Reecius here to rap out about Escalation a bit in 40K.

So, I’ve got 2 games of Escalation under my belt so far.

You can see one here: https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2013/12/06/welcome-to-the-new-6th-edition/

You can see the other game here: https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2013/12/08/warhammer-40k-escalation-video-bat-rep-stompa-vs-baneblade/

That first game was a quick and dirty run through of the new rules with what and who we had on hand. We also wanted to try the Revenant as it jumped out at us as the most powerful unit in the book…and I am pretty sure we were right!

Why were we laughing so hard in that video? Because D weapons are so absurd, so OP, that all you can do is laugh. The Revenant moves 36″ in the movement phase with 4, 60″ large blast D shots, which can be fired at two different targets. Essentially if a D Weapon touches you, odds are you are removed from the table with no saves of any kind, including Invul saves, even Eternal Warrior, or anything similar, does nothing to stop it. It is brutal but it is also not fun. Watching entire units getting taken off the table with no recourse of any kind, no save, feels alien in 40K and for me, just sucks the fun right out of the game. You’re just watching something happen with nothing at all you can do about it.

When that is happening every turn (in both shooting phases in the game above!), forget it. The Revenant killed almost every unit on the table, friend or foe! (Due to Puppet Master).

It killed:

Fateweaver

Lord of Change

Be’Lakor

Riptide

Broadsides x 2

10 Horrors

Cultists

Hellions

All in one hit each….

That is not tactically challenging and there is no defense against it other than hiding, which is hard to do with a 36″ move on a model that tall.

That isn’t to say you can’t destroy the beast, although it is one of the only things that can defend against D weapons with its Holo Field which means it has incredibly potent offense and great defense. But, it is only AV12 with 9HP. You can kill it with some lucky Auto-cannon shots, for example. The issue though, is that with it’s speed and range, only poor deployment or some clever maneuvering is going to ever allow that to happen. A good player with the Titan will always be blasting you at maximum range if he can help it, and typically buffing it with psychic powers and bubble wrapping it from assault.

Considering it will also almost always be Guided/Prescienced, you’re going to be losing 2 units a turn on average to it’s firepower. As it will almost certainly be going for your best units first, the question is can you get to it before it destroys your ability to fight back? And more importantly, does that even sound like fun? Perhaps for some people, but for a lot of folks the game will feel like a futile waste of time.

While the Revenant isn’t the only Lord of War with these abilities, it is the most potent which means it is also the one you will see the most if this were to be used in a competitive setting. Do you really want even more Eldar with even more devastating shooting?

Even with it’s speed and solid defense, the Reveant is actually quite manageable, like taking down 3 Chimeras in the front arc that had a 4+ save (sort of). If it weren’t erasing two units a turn, I would be stoked to use mine more often. As it is if the Revenant deploys well and–particularly if it goes first–the game becomes somewhat ridiculous. You are not a skilled player to twin link and then shoot the most powerful weapons in the game at the other guy and watch him pick up his best units with no recourse. That takes no skill and is in fact, a bit of a waste of time for both players. Now, in a themed, scenario style game? Bring it! That could be a blast. In any type of competitive setting? No way.

We can't repel flavor of that magnitude!

We can’t repel flavor of that magnitude!

But, today we tried out another game with IG+Baneblade vs. Orks+Stompa (the second Video Bat Rep)….and it was fun!

The Super Heavies were throwing around all kinds of crazy weapons, blasts, and blowing crap up left and right! What was the difference? You still had to roll to hit, wound and the other guy got saves. It was super powerful but it wasn’t the game killing stupidity of D-Weaponry. The only lame part of the game was when the Stompa got it’s D-Slapper (our name for his assault weapon) on anything as the victim would just instantly explode. Lame.

The Stompa and Baneblade rolled around smashing stuff and slowly dying, and they did die, eventually (or did they?! You’ll have to watch the bat rep to see!). They were tough, but not insanely over the top, powerful. They fit fairly well into the game, honestly.

It’s the same reason people hate the 2+ reroll: it reduces probability to the point of certainty. I know if I hit you with a D-Weapon you will almost certainly be taken off of the table. I know if I shoot at a 2+ reroll unit, I will almost certainly do nothing to you. It is a foregone conclusion and it takes the element of chance out of the game that makes 40K more fun than Chess (to us). It becomes unexciting.

So it’s not the Super Heavies that are so incredibly imbalancing so much as the D-Weapons themselves (Even to other Super Heavies). For example, if you have a Super Heavy with no D-Weapon against someone with, they are almost 100% assured to destroy you in a shot or two, where you are almost 100% certain to not be able to do the same. It is pretty much the definition of unfair.

Are we open to Super Heavies in tournaments? I would say tentatively yes in time, but not so soon after their release. I still think if one player has a Super Heavy and the other doesn’t (even without D-Weapons) it may be a crummy game, but we don’t know yet.

And that’s the issue. We need to make a call on LVO and soon so that people can prepare. We’re rushing to get up to speed, and share that info, but unless we see a really strong show of support for these supplements, we will probably have to pass at this point in time. We’re prepared for any results in the polls, and will react accordingly.

In the meantime, 80 votes in so far on the LVO poll, I am very curious to see what all of you have to say about it!

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About Reecius

The fearless leader of the intrepid group of gamers gone retailers at Frontline Gaming!

74 Responses to “We’re Not Prepared to Repel Firepower of that Magnitude!”

  1. Nova star December 8, 2013 12:25 am #

    It’s A TRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  2. Nova star December 8, 2013 12:34 am #

    I’d like to point out in fairness the other money grab err I mean game codex, stronghold assault has new options for fortifications, ie one is a void field generator that also protects in a bubble and even if it gets slapped by the D..k weapon the shield just goes down and no damage to the unit it was protecting and then at the end of the turn you roll to see if the shield powers back on

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 8, 2013 11:48 am #

      Yeah, but all you have to do to take it down is glance or pen it and it is only AV12. That to me, is really no defense. Shoot it with an Auto Cannon, drop it, then bring the D.

      • VonCrown December 8, 2013 1:13 pm #

        Except that each void shield generator can take three void shields, and you can take a combined fortification with three shield generators… All of which can be placed to overlap if you want.

        I could be wrong, but also, I’m pretty sure you need a separate unit to take down each void shield- Would have to re-check the wording now that I think of that, tbh.

        But yeah. Void shields on the ground, anti-tank weapons in the sky. That’ll be the way to deal with the new threats.

        In a more general point, I roughly agree that most of the superheavies in the supplement are fine for normal 40k.
        The Revenant is just completly balls-out motherfucking broke.
        It’s 12 points more than a naked lord of skulls for crying out loud, and it’s
        -About 50% more survivable than other superheavies
        -Moves wherever the fuck it wants
        -Has the most ranged str-D shooting of any of the super heavies

        If it weren’t for that thing, escalation would have been fine.

        • Reecius
          Reecius December 8, 2013 9:16 pm #

          Yeah, I am sure there are ways around it, and in time, it may all work out for sure. But for now, this shit is going to blindside people and they’re going to not want to come back to a tournament.

          That is my take on it, personally. However, we’re going to wait until we get the poll results to be sure.

          • Michael Hurwitz December 9, 2013 12:12 am
            #

            I agree. I think these rules will be fine in competitive play in the future, but people need to become aware of them, and that takes time.

            No sense in spooking the casual attendees with titans and Baneblades; keep the LVO free of them, and see what happens in the future.

        • Gordy December 9, 2013 1:52 pm #

          So now every army must have either a superheavy, or a bunch of fortifications, or both, in order to be competitive? I guess that is better than just every army must have a superheavy to be competitive. Slightly.

  3. Paul December 8, 2013 1:00 am #

    Agreed – if your going to include one rule set you need to include the other. That way you have some sort of defense.

    Otherwise you roll dice and remove units – not fun!

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 8, 2013 9:16 pm #

      Yeah, true, we’ll try that next. I just question if anything can stop the almighty D on that Revenant!

  4. The Voice December 8, 2013 1:17 am #

    You can also have a bunker with 7 vortex missiles on it

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 8, 2013 9:17 pm #

      ……hahahaha! Oh my goodness, that is bananas if that plays like the Vortex bombs. I will read that bit tonight.

  5. James Carmona
    kontraktkiller December 8, 2013 1:23 am #

    Its all Bullshit. Fuck cock ass balls Monkey nuts Shit birds taint Gunt cheddar skunk titty twat Lord. Seriously, fuck gw for being so goddamn negligent with their releases. I feel like painting GWs headquarters with my shit after a week of eating nothing but spicy curry and hard boiled eggs.

    • Bjørn O December 8, 2013 8:15 am #

      Shine on! And when you do, pics please.

    • Pascal Roggen December 8, 2013 11:31 am #

      c’mon Kontract, tell us how you really feel. 🙂

      • James Carmona
        kontraktkiller December 8, 2013 11:42 am #

        =) I won’t lie…. I do have a penchant for drama. But come on… Wouldn’t it be great fun!?!? We could all take a trip to Nottingham and go full retard, shitting into our hands and throwing it at the buildings….ok maybe need help :/

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 8, 2013 9:17 pm #

      Take no prisoners!

  6. Adam December 8, 2013 4:20 am #

    That sounds reasonable. It makes sense to fully playtest the thing before allowing it in events.

  7. Fulcrum December 8, 2013 5:12 am #

    He with the most $ wins!

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 8, 2013 9:18 pm #

      For once, that may actually be true! hahaha

      Skill still trumps list…usually…right?!

      • Adam
        Adam December 9, 2013 9:03 am #

        Takes just as much skill to buy a screamer/seer/tide
        -star!

        • Reecius
          Reecius December 9, 2013 11:26 am #

          Two wrongs don’t make a right, Adam =P

          • steven morrow December 9, 2013 12:09 pm
            #

            seer star and a revenant lol

          • Reecius
            Reecius December 9, 2013 3:25 pm
            #

            The Sum of all fearS!

          • steven morrow December 9, 2013 12:15 pm
            #

            and a void shield generator with 3 voids to counter alpha strike so you will get your powers up.

          • Reecius
            Reecius December 9, 2013 3:26 pm
            #

            Exactly, people forget the Void Shield goes both ways!

          • Adam
            Adam December 9, 2013 12:50 pm
            #

            Haha, well in the world of rock-paper-scissor hammer, if there’s no Rock to counter X-star’s Scissor, it’s just no fun!

            What’s funny is that I can’t think if many other ways to get 888 points for $160! If GW did this to make the game more expensive they’ve certainly failed!

          • Reecius
            Reecius December 9, 2013 3:25 pm
            #

            That is a good point on the price thing!

        • Gordy December 9, 2013 1:55 pm #

          Are you seriously still claiming it’s better to have two massively broken things instead of trying to remove one massively broken thing without introducing another? I thought we were trying to avoid tossing the baby out with the bathwater, not pouring rat poison into the tub and seeing if the baby floats.

          • Reecius
            Reecius December 10, 2013 7:59 am
            #

            Yeah, I agree. D weapons just straight up do not belong in the game. Adam makes a good case but in the end I don’t want the D!

  8. cavalier December 8, 2013 5:56 am #

    Good for you guys for giving it a go. I’d still like to see what a game with void shield generators, and a shadowsword vs Eldar with a revenant would look like. I think the real test will be what two armies both with d-weapons and a smattering of fortifications (and v-shields) will look like.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 8, 2013 9:30 pm #

      We can give that a go, actually. It would just be lame if every list had to take the D or void shields just to be able to put their stuff on the table, you know?

      • cavalier December 9, 2013 6:36 am #

        Its sucks but I guess you are right. Its probably not suited for tournament play… The deeper we get into 6th edition the more it seems that the game is designed for organized play…. but at home with friends. A stripped down version is probably required for tournament play… but its a slippery slope and I hope it just doesn’t go too far because as I’ve said before where the tournament scene goes, the pickup scene follows and all of a sudden 3/4 of the community is playing a very different game than what was intended and people who want to use legal 40k units are going to have to plead with people to let them use units that they paid good money for.

        • Reecius
          Reecius December 9, 2013 7:15 am #

          You make an excellent point about not going too far with the rules. You have to be very, very careful about what you do or it can make the game become not what it was.

  9. ACBrown December 8, 2013 6:44 am #

    So yeah, I recently said that I was for allowing all GW stuff. But clearly D-weapons are too much. It needs to be strength 10 AP1.

    It’s too bad GW misses this fact to blatantly. Do they actually play their own games?

    The only thing I can think is that they say to themselves, “This represents fictional reality. Sometimes you’re going to come up against something that totally overpowers you. Yes, of course, this isn’t meant to be perfectly balanced.”

    Assuming that is basically correct, it does mean that they aren’t concerned with competitive play. Therefore, TOs, don’t over think the situation. Make sensible restrictions and let’s play!

  10. Hotsauceman1 December 8, 2013 9:08 am #

    I really really hope you dont allow this for the LVO or the next BAO. Maybe after that, getting people to prepare for them and buy and paint them. But not one for a tournament that is nearly 2 months away.

  11. Donzo December 8, 2013 9:59 am #

    Reece, not to pile on the pressure 🙂 but when will you guys be ready to make some rulings or open up your tournament pack for the LVO? Im actually on the fence about attending, but cant pull the trigger without knowing some of the silliness will be addressed… I know you guys are working on it, and first and foremost want to say thank you for being an ambassador for the game! I will also be donating to your kickstarter for the simple fact your team does a lot for the community.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 8, 2013 9:31 pm #

      Thanks for hooking up the KS, much appreciated!

      And thanks for the kind words, that means a lot to us as while we dick off and joke around a lot, this stuff is important to us.

      All questions and policy for LVO will be revealed by week’s end! I am waiting for all the poll results to come in, first.

  12. jy2
    jy2 December 8, 2013 10:05 am #

    Ok, I’ve got my phantom titan and I’m ready to go to war. Now the only challenge remaining is to try to fit my 2500-pt model into a 1750 tournament and still fit the rest of my army in.

    • masos December 8, 2013 1:37 pm #

      Haha. Thats what i am talking about. Jy2 knows the real spirt of the game. Who has more cash. You win 😉

  13. Chuck December 8, 2013 11:23 am #

    While I feel like even superheavies with D-Weapons will be adapted to, I can definitely see not allowing them in a tournament so close to the release. Unlike most of the other rapid-fire releases that GW has been putting out, I think Escalation is going to cause a massive upset to the overall meta (assuming it doesn’t just end up being banned by every TO), and that’s not something that you can / should put on players only 2 months out from a tournament.

    Overall, I feel like the biggest problem with the Revenant isn’t actually the D weapons (obviously those are crazy powerful), but the 36″ move. If it was restricted to the usual Super-Heavy Walker move of 12″, you could hide from it a lot more effectively and it would be much more reasonable. But being able to move at flyer speed without the LoS / Movement Arc restrictions is just too fast.

  14. James Carmona
    kontraktkiller December 8, 2013 11:30 am #

    Another thing that makes me really hate this super heavy and d weapon nonsense is the fact that it further detracts from flavor that 40k used to have in previous additions. The rules for most of 6th edition have set the stage for spam list like never before. Only but very seldom do you see any of the models that personify 40k in the classic sense. No more genestealers, no more khorne berzerkers, no more carnifexes, rhinos are almost non existent, Wraithlords got fucking benched by their big brothers. In general CC got neutered. Parking lot guard becomes a liability as soon as you set it down on the table….. Dude, some of the coolest aspects of 40k are just fucking gone now. I understand that the game has evolved but goddammit there is so much needing to be fixed before we need bother ourselves with more game breaking options. This will be the straw that breaks the camels back. With people willing to spend 900+ points on a single model and cherry pick the same units from the same codexes/supplements just to stay competitive,the game will become bland and boring. There will literally be no distinction between between standard units and elite units. 250pt land Raiders will be relegated to the same effectiveness as a 35pt rhino. I can’t see how anyone would be in favor of these changes unless maybe they’ve been beaten into insanity by the 2++ meta.

    • jy2
      jy2 December 8, 2013 12:51 pm #

      Agreed. Super-heavies will stagnate the variety that is 40K, especially in competitive play.

  15. DCannon4Life December 8, 2013 12:11 pm #

    Went to a small (8-man) tournament this weekend. Escalation, 2+ Rerollables & etc. were often the topic of conversation. My contribution to it is this: A reasonable evolution in tournaments is to run multiple categories (same entrance fee, if you have a SH <– Super Heavy, not $hit Head, you go into a pool with the other SH lists, etc.). A tournament might have 3 different first-through-third place trophies, etc. One for each category. Another possibility, at a local rather than national level, is to run tournaments as invitationals; if you've got a group of hardcore deep-pocketed SH rockers, invite them. That way, everyone knows what they're in for. If you want fluffy stuff, invite the players in your community that favor that style and play on.

  16. frank December 8, 2013 12:11 pm #

    The thing about the Titan is it can not take down flyers, plus drop pod marines might just spoil its day very fast, is it powerful ? yes but it is 900pts the harridan puts out 12 s10 shots a turn if I
    have lots of little bugs on the table & on different floor in buildings the chances are you’re not going to kill them all with the titan before this thing comes on.

    So on it own with nothing on a table that can hurt it the titan will flaten every thing just like a lot of other units in 40k before it did, all this is irock, paper on a bigger scale.

    • Adam
      Adam December 9, 2013 9:11 am #

      Exactly! It actually has counters that are already in the game and people already run those lists! Daemon flying circus, necron air force, green tide orcs, IG Vendettas… All those things really have little to fear from destroyer weapons. Add in a Pedro or Vulcan Pod army with a gratuitous amounts of deep striking melta, plus if my math serves me, Eldar Serpent Spam lists, and you actually have a fair number of lists that can put the pressure on it.

      Another big factor is that in a tournament, if it goes up against another Revenant, it’s basically a 50/50 chance to win. Most tournament players I know who go to win, do not like those kinds of odds.

      People are having their crazy knee-jerk reactions because yes, the Revenant just shits on some lists… But so do all the current top lists. What the Revenant does really well for the meta is bring a hard counter to the Screamer/Seer/Tide-star lists, which is welcome in my book.

      • Doc_S December 9, 2013 1:29 pm #

        I agree with your assessment Adam, there are plenty of counters. A lot of this reaction is because its a CHANGE, and people hate change more than most things. Sure, the first time I see a SH being dropped I will probably cry a bit on the inside. My lists are usually tailored to deal with a variety of things and dropping in twin linked meltas is one of my favorite combos because people with heavy hitters hate two things in the game, meltas and plasma. The heaviest hitters hate only one thing, and its meltas. Drop 4 meltas around a SH and twin link them so you are pretty much getting 4 hits and you will pop a super heavy pretty quickly. Sure you will most likely lose a few squads because of D weapons, but what is worth more? 2 squads that total 200 points (maybe) or a SH that is worth what 600+ points?

        • Reecius
          Reecius December 9, 2013 3:27 pm #

          I agree that we as a community tend to overreact to stuff, but this is pretty dang extreme. D weapons are just OTT. Try it out, I think you will change your tune after getting the D.

          It’s not even that they’re unbeatable (they’re not), they’re just not fun.

          • Adam
            Adam December 9, 2013 3:46 pm
            #

            Lots of things in 40k lately are not fun to go against, you complain about them all the time in your podcast! The real issue is if they’re so imbalanced that they should be banned from competitive play, which I am fully against.

            If it’s not fun, then when your buddy brings one, tell him to stuff it. 🙂

          • Reecius
            Reecius December 9, 2013 3:57 pm
            #

            I do complain about the crap a lot! Haha, that is part of my job here, it’s in the description =P

    • steven morrow December 9, 2013 12:20 pm #

      The harridan is nasty because it can swoop or glide. a t8 w8 baddie moving 12 inches a turn and kicking out all those s 10 shots then switching over to swoop to start s10 vector striking and cannon shots with 360 line of sight is nasty

      • Reecius
        Reecius December 9, 2013 3:26 pm #

        Yeah, beast mode! Wish we had one to try.

  17. Schadenfreude December 8, 2013 12:45 pm #

    I think a baneblade with prescience, a 4++ save from a PFG librarian hiding out of LOS behind the tank, and 1D6 scatter on it’s guns from servo skulls may present a severe problem for opponents without a super heavy.

    On the other hand I think a stompa or baneblade without buffs is manageable for armies without a super heavy.

  18. Mark December 8, 2013 12:50 pm #

    Much like Magic the Gathering, the competitive scene will (might, don’t want to assume) have a ban list.

    Then you could ban things like, “any model or fortification with a ‘D’ weapon”. Or “The Tau Fortification” (Both the Space Marine and Eldar ones are terrible).

    then change 2++ re-rollable to 2++ -> 4++ and you’re good to go (1/12 much more manageable than 1/36).

    Now jokes….

    ===

    I hit your D-Weapon Platform with a Vibro Cannon… it’s now a Vibrating D.

    You hit me with the D and I took it like a B

    I see you whipped out your D, that stinks

    You brought the D? Kay, why? (<– subtle)

    We were friends until he brought the D.

    — 1/5 of the above jokes were rated as actually funny —

    • Mark December 8, 2013 12:51 pm #

      Reece, the dating site ads on your site are starting to feature men. We may have been talking about the D too much.

      • James Carmona
        kontraktkiller December 8, 2013 3:23 pm #

        There is just too much D….. said no one ever

        • Jason Brown December 8, 2013 9:43 pm #

          Someone needs to model the pulsars as big giant dildos.

  19. Bigpig December 8, 2013 12:51 pm #

    D weapons have to be a non starter. They are for games with thousands of points on each side. Glad to see you guys play testing to determine balance. If only GW would do the same. ;). I encourage you to test games where one side has a LoW and the other simply has a TAC list. Not everyone will want or be able to field one based on army, etc.

  20. jy2
    jy2 December 8, 2013 1:02 pm #

    The D is a change that is going to penetrate deep into the annals of 40K history. What are you going to do when the D is beating up on your army hard? The only defense you can erect against the D is to submit to its will and come to the realization that if you can’t beat it, then you might as well go with the flow.

    Haha….I just had to forge a narrative for this one. 😉

    • Mark December 8, 2013 2:23 pm #

      And the joke winner is…. Jy! I took the D with grace buddy. With Grace. Like a champ.

      • jy2
        jy2 December 8, 2013 6:35 pm #

        Whoa….I won? Well, I can honestly say that I am D-lighted. 😉
        This is D best day of my week. LOL!!!

  21. C.J. Young December 8, 2013 2:01 pm #

    Good thoughts in this article! I have been a long time player in Apoc and am in full support super heavies coming into normal 40K. However, I agree that D-Weapons in a normal games is to much. I was frankly shocked that GW put D-Weapons in normal 40K without modifying them. Especially on the Revenant Titan who dominates even most Apoc games I have played in.

    Myself and our gaming group from Laramie Wyoming are planning to come to LVO and are supper excited for it. I do hope that you will consider not an outright ban on Escalation but maybe on D-Weapons. I think what you do will be critical to the future of these new books and much of the community will follow suit with your decision. I also, hope that you allow Stronghold Assault with the exception of the Macro Cannon (again a D-Weapon). There does not seem to be to much that is over the top in that book and an outright ban on it would only prevent people from playing things like the Wall of Martyrs which is another neat thing added to the game. However, I do understand you need to make a balanced event which is fun for everyone. I am just glad you are allowing Forgeworld!!!

  22. Edward December 8, 2013 2:17 pm #

    What if you just had an errata that made all D slap weapons str 10 ap 1 with pinning or something or make it that you can’t Reroll a save against them? Is that going to far? you still get saves which is what seems to be the problem. Or just allow invulnerable saves maybe?

    • Tarrasq December 8, 2013 11:04 pm #

      Maybe S10 AP1 reroll successful saves, but allow cover and invunerables. Or perhaps S10 AP X and it reduces saves by -2 or something like that.

  23. masos December 8, 2013 2:20 pm #

    I have to say. Being a constant player of your guys opens and other NOVA events.

    I can safely say this book is to much. After reading it I was just pissed that anyone with a 3 raveners, a revener titan ( actually lets see Frankie pick something like that up) and what the fuck else he wanted he could give me a run for my money due to I don’t cheat and I like to help my opponents as much as possible, so I can see what should of happen if they knew all their rules etc.

    I consider myself a very Competitive player. I’m only really happy when both players, make the best army list as possible and plays as hard to win as they can. In 5th I played a leaf blower in 6th I’ve been experimenting with FMC Circus w/ hearldbomb and farsight bomb. I hate mistakes and feeling like I didn’t win because i didn’t make the best list possible.

    But with escalation I feel like making the best list is now mute. I think that pure luck, who is going first and how much LOS blocking terrain there is decides the game more and more.

    I cant wait till you FAQ this in tournament play. Here in our local community I run small tournaments at my local game store. And I use BAO style Missions and all your guys BAO FAQ due to its the fairest simplest way to answer peoples sometimes difficult questions. I hope you guys release something soon.

  24. Mike December 8, 2013 7:13 pm #

    “Do you really want even more Eldar with even more devastating shooting?”

    Good point.

  25. Fulcrum December 8, 2013 8:17 pm #

    Just ban escalation, it’s just an expansion like planet strike, cities of death etc., if you want to make a super heavy legal event separate from the open that’s fine. I personally won’t be attending any tournament that allows super heavy. I think the non-book fortifications should be banned too, definitely until we see what kind of game breaking combos people can make. Not to mention, based on what has been released recently, these rules are likely full of errors, misprints, contradicting rules. Who knows how long it would take to work through what would need to be independently faq’d for the lvo. Maybe next year, but I suspect the competitive community will have to more & more take steps to keep the integrity of the game we love somewhat intact as GW plunges down this path. We all know they don’t like or support the tournament scene & the randonimity being introduced into the game more & more is just 1 more sign of this. I believe that they don’t playtest because GW corporate sees it as a waste of time & $. They know people will still buy models & book regardless of the stability of the rule set.

  26. Charlie December 9, 2013 5:13 am #

    Locally, two guys were already breaking out Escalation to give it a try and folks were actually excited. I really don’t find it overly one sided on one condition:

    Both players have the same expectation. This can become quite unfun when one player is on the receiving end of an ass whooping b/c he had no idea what his opponent was bringing to the table. Expectation management is key, whether for casual play or tourney play. This, in my opinion, why TO’s try to communicate so much to their players to ensure everyone is on the same page as to what to expect for their event.

    Sadly, there is a lot of knee jerk reaction going on and mis-information all over the place. If people actually tried to problem solve their way through an issue, they may be surprised about the outcome. My typical Eldar army at 1850-2000 points will stop a Revenant on turn 2. I’d love to run the Revenant, but I’m worried about things like Drop Pod Sternguard, massed fliers, IG, green tide Orks, Eldar (non-Jetseers) just off the top of my head. If I lose a 900 point model on turns 1 or 2, I’m in a LOT of trouble. Basically, it is a deathstar unit and losing it early may likely cost you the game. It is killable and that is where things start getting tricky.

    But, saying that this stuff is like Cities of Death is a complete misconception. Sure, a player may say he won’t play against a Revenant titan, but that same player can also state he won’t play against an Eldar army (this actually happens to me locally). As usual, there is a social contract between both players and they will agree to how they want to play the game. However, this book is just as legal as a 40K codex.

    At the end of the day, I think if folks communicate and there is a clear understanding as to what they want out of the game, it is fine. Just as someone can decline to play against my Revenant titan, I can also decline to play against the 200+ model count unpainted Ork army.

    • Fulcrum December 9, 2013 8:39 pm #

      We’re talking about in reference to a tournament generally & the lvo specifically. Not your local game scene. So I would say in that context that no it’s not just as legal as the standard rule books.

  27. Vidar December 9, 2013 11:44 pm #

    This just seems like GWs attempt to torpedo competitive play once and for all.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 10, 2013 7:55 am #

      I don’t think they’re actively attacking tournament play, I just think they don’t give a fuck how their rules impact tournament play. I think they assume we will sort out what aspects of the game we want to use for ourselves. Even if the rules writers don’t like tournament play, the company must see that giant organized events promoting their product is good for the health of what they do.

      • Fulcrum December 10, 2013 9:54 pm #

        I agree & I think the onus is on us to keep the game competitive & fun for players of all codexes. It probably sounds dumb, but I really feel that an ork player has just as much right to go into a tournament thinking he has a chance to win as any other player, & I don’t thinking asking a player to change codexes & build a new army is a valid thing to say.

  28. james December 11, 2013 12:00 pm #

    Wow…so you’re shocked that something that is called a “Titan Killer” is able to kill a super heavy without sD easy? Seriously?! That’s like me saying I’m surprised that a SM Stormraven with TL Multi, TL Lascannon, and 4 concussive s8 ap2 missiles is able to kill a GK Raven that is equipped with heavy bolters and hurricane bolters…

    C’mon, you guys know that some things are DESIGNED to kill other things and don’t complain about those(Wraithknight vs Daemon Prince anyone?), yet with something is called a “Titan Killer” and is described in the books as being amongst the most powerful weaponry in the galaxy you’re shocked that it kills a Soul Grinder…

    It never ceases to amaze me how people are surprised at what sD does…it’s a Titan Killer…If it can kill a Titan it can kill anything…

    Keep calm people gheez

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 11, 2013 12:34 pm #

      OK, you are right that it is as powerful as advertised. Fair point, but the point we’re making is: do you wan to play regular games with this? Will you still be having fun because you understand the fluff of something when it destroys your entire army?

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