Welcome to the new 6th Edition! Escalation Battle Report

Video Battle Report

Video Battle Report

In this test game, Jy2 busts out Be’Lakor and an FMC/Soulgrinder Daemon/CSM list against an insane Mash-up list Spam Adam pilots that consists of Eldar/Dark Eldar/Tau and a Revenant Titan! Under current 40K rules, all of this stuff is legal for “standard” games. Would you want to play games like this in a tournament or no? Check out the Tactics Corner for more great videos and articles!


About Reecius

The fearless leader of the intrepid group of gamers gone retailers at Frontline Gaming!

167 Responses to “Welcome to the new 6th Edition! Escalation Battle Report”

  1. Orthon December 6, 2013 10:11 pm #

    This completely breaks the game. GW doesn’t give a damn about balance.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 6, 2013 10:17 pm #


      It’s up to us, now.

      • Orthon December 7, 2013 9:07 am #

        I think GW has lost whatever little legitimacy as a creator of rules they had left. They just copy and pasted rules from apocalypse without any real play testing or concern for the game. This is a short term cash grab that will damage the game long term. I personally do not want to spend money on their ridiculous super heavies or fortifications just to be “competitive” or tailor my list to deal with this trash. I wish you luck in providing the rules for a balanced tournament.

        • Reecius
          Reecius December 7, 2013 4:44 pm #

          D Weapons I can tell you with about 99.99% certainty will not feature in our events.

  2. Adam
    Adam December 6, 2013 10:13 pm #

    I think the results in this game were pretty skewed actually. With super heavies on the board you need long ranged anti-tank. I feel like the Be’lakor list was written totally ignoring the fact that super heavies exist. If the drake had a Hades, or if his allies included havoc a or oblits (ideally in a multi-story ruin) then it would have been much more of a game. Just like when flyers hit the games, the armies that don’t adapt to the changing meta will lose… Hard.

    I don’t want to say D weapons are not powerful, just more that a list that isn’t up to date with the meta is always going to struggle and this is a great example of why.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 6, 2013 10:17 pm #

      The Revenant ignores any hit on a 4+! And you can Fortune it….(sorry that was confusing, you can Fortune it but NOT the 4+ Holo Field, I worded that very badly)

      No man, honestly, this shit is retarded. Seriously.

      • Adam
        Adam December 6, 2013 10:29 pm #

        Re-read the Titan Holofield rules, it’s not a save, fortune does nothing.

        • Reecius
          Reecius December 6, 2013 11:21 pm #

          I wrote my post above badly, we never Fortuned it and actually talked about that in the game. You are right, sorry for the confusion.

    • jy2
      jy2 December 7, 2013 8:38 am #

      I brought a TAC list that has a reasonably good chance against any army out there.

      Problem with Titans is that now you have to kind of tailor your list to fight them.

      Besides, what kind of long range AT do daemons have anyways?

      • Reecius
        Reecius December 7, 2013 9:04 am #

        Yeah, you had a powerful list! haha, it wasn’t weak, that;s for sure.

        • bugsculptor December 7, 2013 11:32 am #

          Sure, but a TAC means “take all comers” and the meta has just been turned over. If you can’t take a titan you can’t TAC.

          Jy2 did not have a list that could handle a metagame full of revenant titans, but I’m not sure that it’s something impossible to design.

          What it will do is make units like podding zoanthropes, long range anti-tank & flying anti-tank much more valuable. Lances and AP1 are something you need to have in high volume.

          Puppet master becomes incredible! Anything that can just shut down or take over one unit becomes much more powerful. Hallucination could do something pretty nasty to the revenant and stop it moving while multiple flying MCs moved in for the kill.

          For the demons, take a couple of blood thirsters along with Belakor and see how they chew up the revenant when they catch it.

          • Reecius
            Reecius December 9, 2013 7:52 am

            Hallucination doesn’t work on vehicles.

            And, like we’ve said, the Titan isn’t unkillable but unfun. You surround it with support units and it becomes the game. Kill the titan or be killed by it.

            Surround it with AA and interceptor and bubble wrap and good luck.

  3. Ricter December 6, 2013 10:16 pm #

    Are titans actually approved for normal play? I got the impression that the Escalation ruleset was only for special scenarios that both players agreed to, like the old Cities of Death.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 6, 2013 11:17 pm #

      Straight up normal play as far as we can tell. New FoC slot.

  4. James Carmona
    kontraktkiller December 6, 2013 10:22 pm #

    Fucking whack. Gw can’t seem to stop stepping on its own dick. Matt ward was/is the anti Christ and this is the apocalypse……oh ya I just went there.

    • Adam
      Adam December 6, 2013 10:54 pm #

      I think this is more of an issue of rules played incorrectly… can’t fortune revenants, didn’t take the whole tau formation and the daemon army did nothing to take into account the meta of super heavies, except for Be’lakor, which doesn’t actually do anything to hurt a revenant.

      Super heavies are going to change the meta, yes, that’s obvious, but is that a bad thing? Heaven forbid that people have to think about long-range anti-tank again!

      • Reecius
        Reecius December 6, 2013 10:59 pm #

        We didn’t Fortune the Reveneant, if that came across it was misspoken, we actually discussed that in the game.

        We mentioned we got the Formation wrong, but it made no difference. They didn’t do anything! haha

        It is a bad thing, Adam. D weapons are too much.

        • Adam
          Adam December 6, 2013 11:06 pm #

          I still say play a few more games before coming to that conclusion, people said flyers were too much. I’m going to be pretty sad if super heavies end up getting banned based on a bad matchup, you didn’t ban flyers because Tyranids had no counters!

          • Reecius
            Reecius December 6, 2013 11:15 pm

            Dude, hahaha, try it for yourself. Yes we got some rules wrong (which will happen in a tournament, too) but it is just insanely powerful. Adam made a ton of mistakes with the Titan, it should have never been assaulted in the first place.

            Just try the D Adam, I think you will find it not to your taste! hahaha, I couldn’t resist =P

          • Adam
            Adam December 6, 2013 11:18 pm

            Haha, i’ve played quite a bit of Apoc and while D weapons are good, they rarely pay off over how fragile superheavies are. You totally have to admit that had the Daemon player actually taken any long-range weaponry it would have been a different game.

            You can’t make a list that totally ignores the need for long-range anti-tank, then get spanked by a long-range shooting vehicle and blame it entirely on that vehicle being OP. If I don’t take weapons to deal with hordes of infantry and I get wrecked by a green tide, that’s not the fault of the ork.

      • Adam
        Adam December 6, 2013 11:00 pm #

        PS – I don’t want that to sound like an attack on the guys playing. At this point it’s super easy to get a ton of things wrong, it’s going to happen when a book has only been in-hand for a few minutes before playing. I bet that if these guys played again and got things right, this would have been a MUCH more interesting game.

        Really the things to take away are that the meta is going to change and that we really shouldn’t jump to conclusions based on our initial shot at the rules, especially when huge mistakes are made.

        • Reecius
          Reecius December 6, 2013 11:22 pm #

          Fair play, and yes you can adjust to it no doubt. But, the fact that it erases two units a turn is too much, IMO.

          • Adam
            Adam December 6, 2013 11:33 pm

            It can erase 2 *vehicles* a turn otherwise we’re just talking large blasts that ignore cover, wound on 2+ and are AP2… sound familiar? Tau have been doing that for a few months!

            We are also talking about the Revenant titan, which I believe is the single most expensive super heavy, weighing in at 900 points. You’d better believe that thing is going to kill some shit!

            It does hurt my recent idea of loading up on land raiders to counter the S7 meta, but crap, lets just think about this some more… Auto-exploding vehicles turns your rhino into a 35-point shot absorber. Multi-story ruins become even more powerful as they harshly limit the number of models you’ll get under a template and pods + meltas are going to actually have a place in the meta again!

            Giving the enemy +1 to seize means the super heavy will only have turn 1 40% of the time. If you actually have some long-range anti-tank you can pour a few shots into it right away, especially because there isn’t much else worth shooting at!

            I think instead of a battle report with some knee-jerk reactions it would do much more for the community to show what a game might be like between players who are taking into account the new meta of the game, instead of one ill-prepared list vs it’s total nightmare of an opponent.

          • Reecius
            Reecius December 7, 2013 12:17 am

            No, it was actually erasing entire units at a go, vehicle, MC, IC, Infantry, etc. 10 Horrors one shot, a Riptide one shot, Broadsides in two shots, unit of Jetbikes in another, etc.

            And an AP2 weapons doesn’t ignore invul saves and do multiple wounds! hahaha.

            And we took the Baron to get the +1 to go first, so the odds are actually in favor of the Titan. You could take it, Coteaz and Vect to almost ensure first turn! hahaha, that kind of abuse is what we fear.

          • Adam
            Adam December 7, 2013 12:53 am

            Okay, you and I both know that 10 horrors in one shot doesn’t happen when you spread out your units… If you know your enemy is dishing out D pie plates why are you not at maximum coherency?

            Not ignoring the invul saves is why Destroyers are important! All the AP2 in the world was doing jack to screamers!

          • Reecius
            Reecius December 7, 2013 12:55 am

            He was spread out =(

            Got hit by all 4 templates (nothing else to shoot at as it was all dead!) and did 10 wounds, rolling no 1’s.

            I agree that the invul save is good in the context of the abusive units, but this is shooting a mosquito with an Elephant Gun, IMO.

        • jy2
          jy2 December 7, 2013 8:43 am #

          Problem is, certain armies like tyranids, daemons and orks don’t have reliable long ranged AT. They may be able to take out a rhino occasionally from a distance, but here you are talking about a 9HP super-heavy with a 4+ chance to ignore any hits out there.

          Moreover, why should armies like daemons, nids and orks have to shore up on something they are weak with instead of playing something that is to their strength? It’s like forcing Tau to play assaulty instead of the natural shooters that they are.

          • bugsculptor December 7, 2013 11:51 am

            Tyranids can pod down zopes for 9 AP2 lance shots in on a 2+ reserve roll. I’ve rolled that a couple of times and it has a chance of outright killing a titan, though you’ve got to roll a lot of dice to do it. It’s still cheaper than the titan and has pretty good flexibility against a lot of units in the game.

            Orks have lootaz, at least. In multi level ruins they could get a few chances to ding the hull points off a revenant.

            Demons have powerful psykers capable of casting puppet master, hallucination etc, and also flying monstrous creatures like blood thirsters that will tear a revenant apart if they catch it.

  5. James Carmona
    kontraktkiller December 6, 2013 10:33 pm #

    From a business stand point this makes total sense. Think about it, we’ve all known for a long time now that gw isn’t a game company, it’s a model making company. And if the most expensive models that they make aren’t allowed in standard games people aren’t likely to buy them. So the logical thing to do is to simply release rules to make them not only legal for standard games, but to make them a no brainer. They just made their most expensive kits their best sellers. Aaaaand boom goes the dynamite.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 6, 2013 11:23 pm #

      Yup. But, is it the game we want to play? That’s the real question.

    • jy2
      jy2 December 7, 2013 8:45 am #

      Basically, GW said, “fuck balance and fuck tournaments. We need to sell more Apoc models because we need to make money or fold.” (Pardon my French.)

      • James Carmona
        kontraktkiller December 7, 2013 4:11 pm #

        Does your French have an accent too?

  6. LordDdrakon December 6, 2013 10:40 pm #

    you guys wow. Bad report so many things done wrong, tau formation wasn’t legal…..holo fields aren’t a save, attacker rolls on 4+ your hit(if you moved) 3+ if you havent. so no fortune….. wow

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 6, 2013 10:58 pm #

      We didn’t fortune the Revenant.

      And we said we got the Tau formation wrong. And, the formation says in one spot it must be three but in the unit entry it says it is 1 with the option to buy 2 more. It is extremely poorly written.

      But please good sir, make a better report for us to watch =)

      • Lorddrakon December 7, 2013 7:24 am #

        Today I’m going to run a macro-cannon at 1.5k too see how “broken” d-weapons are. Will be posting it over at http://www.3plusplus.net/ forums for all too see!

        • Reecius
          Reecius December 7, 2013 8:00 am #

          Thanks for sharing, I look forward to the report.

  7. Snotling Swarm December 6, 2013 10:46 pm #

    On the upside though, Belakor seems pretty cool.

  8. krisbot4000 December 6, 2013 10:54 pm #

    please tell me you arent letting this crap into the LVO… I was sooo looking forward to going..

    • Adam
      Adam December 6, 2013 10:55 pm #

      You haven’t even played it and just watched a battle report with a lot of things played incorrectly… why are you so quick to judge?

      • krisbot4000 December 6, 2013 11:01 pm #

        i dont need to be tabled in 2 turns by one model to know its retarded.

        • Adam
          Adam December 6, 2013 11:09 pm #

          Then you shouldn’t show up in tournaments. If you have a list that has a hard counter and you face it, guess what? You’re screwed. That daemon list did nothing to take into account the idea that destroyer weapons even exist. He even could have taken a hades on that drake and laughed all day long because the revenant can do literally nothing to it.

          Imagine taking an army with literally 0 anti-air, then you go against an army that uses a ton of flyers… you’re going to get wrecked.

          • Reecius
            Reecius December 6, 2013 11:41 pm

            Brobot, you are my friend and a reasonable guy, but I think you are letting your emotions get the better of you on this one, you know? No reason to pounce on other posters because they disagree.


            Would you want to write an editorial about why you think Super Heavies are good for 40k? I would love to post that on FLG.

          • Adam
            Adam December 6, 2013 11:45 pm

            You know me, i’m already on it! 😛

          • Reecius
            Reecius December 7, 2013 12:18 am

            I look forward to it!

          • Gordy December 7, 2013 12:51 am

            Dude, other people are allowed to have opinions, too.

          • Adam
            Adam December 7, 2013 12:57 am

            I love that people have smart, educated and well reasoned opinions! I think there is nothing better in the world than people expressing those opinions! I don’t think you’ll find anyone else on the web more respectful of intelligently, thoughtfully and rationally formed opinions.

            What I think is horrible are people who form opinions quickly without backing them up with rationale. Just because you have the capability to type doesn’t mean you need to open your trap and say the first thing that comes out.

        • jy2
          jy2 December 7, 2013 8:49 am #


          But seriously, I am a very competitive player and a GT-winner. I have a high tolerance for shenanigans. Most things people consider broken – re-rollable 2+’s, Tau shooting and ability to break the rules, Necron MSS and troops in flyers – I say bring it on.

          But even I have a line that I don’t cross. Titans with D-weapons in normal play is one of them (unless both parties agree in advance to both bring them).

          • Japatoes December 7, 2013 11:27 am

            @jy2 You played one game against them with an unoptimized list for facing superheavies. I understand that was part of the video, but don’t you think you should try it again before you discount it? A Flying Slaanesh prince with a lash would do work against a d weapon super heavy. If you rolled iron arm you’d have a hay day with it.

            I agree that the reavent seems OP, but maybe some of the other super heavies aren’t.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 6, 2013 11:07 pm #

      99% likely to be no. The poll is going out tonight so be sure to vote if you already bought your ticket.

      Honestly, I highly, highly doubt based off of everything I have gathered so far that it is going to go through.

      • Adam
        Adam December 6, 2013 11:10 pm #

        That’s really disappointing… banning something based off of one bad experience before the book has been out long enough for anyone to even give it a shot. That’s very unlike you Reece!

        • Reecius
          Reecius December 6, 2013 11:24 pm #

          It’s not really me banning anything, i am just guessing based off of the Dakka poll I started which had less than a 2% pro Super Heavy vote! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/566740.page

        • Gordy December 7, 2013 12:57 am #

          This isn’t a new experience. When Reece and were down in SLO, we played a bunch of apoc, each game getting bigger and crazier. Eventually, we completely gave up on it, becaused it just stopped being fun. The crazy over the top superheavy abuse just ruined the game. And now seeing it start to leak into 40k? It’s more than just an educated guess that this won’t turn out well, because we’ve already seen some stuff like this before.

          Maybe the game has changed enough that it will somehow work this time. I doubt it, but maybe. Just don’t jump to the conclusion that this is just another uneducated kneejerk reaction on everyone’s part.

          • Reecius
            Reecius December 7, 2013 9:06 am

            Yeah, we eventually banned D weapons in Apoc! That is how dumb it was.

        • bugsculptor December 7, 2013 12:03 pm #

          Hey, in fairness – if a hundred people have already signed up for a tourney, they should have a say if they’re getting to play 40k or apocalypse. Just cause GW doesn’t think we have a choice, it’s great if Reece gives us one.

  9. Hotsauceman1 December 6, 2013 10:59 pm #

    Fuck this stupid ass shit. Reece I know you love the free for all 40k with the seerstar and s forth, but just get rid of this stuff. Lock the Stuff in a case and throw away the key.

    • Adam
      Adam December 6, 2013 11:13 pm #

      again, a player takes no long-range anti tank and gets wrecked by an army with a powerful long-range presence… you’re surprised by the results?

      • Reecius
        Reecius December 6, 2013 11:25 pm #

        But, if the Super Heavy goes first, he smokes the long range shooting.

        And, I wish we did have more time to figure it out, but we don’t for the LVO! haha

        • Hotsauceman1 December 7, 2013 7:33 am #

          I think what people are doing is ignoring context TBH. This was made not to counnter screamer star or stuff like that, but was made for more casual games. You dont need your superheavy in apoc anymore, If you want to hang with your buddie for a bit of time in your garage and go balls to the wall that is what escalation is for

      • Bigpig December 7, 2013 11:03 am #

        My army has no long range anti tank available. How do propose I respond to a reversal of long standing rules which unbalances the game system?

        • Reecius
          Reecius December 7, 2013 11:27 am #

          You get the D, Bigpig. The Dirty D. =(

          • steven morrow December 7, 2013 1:43 pm

            done D cheap!!

  10. Noah December 6, 2013 11:02 pm #

    Wow….this is for sure not making the tourney scene.

    • Adam
      Adam December 6, 2013 11:14 pm #

      YEAH! We should just let seer/tide/screamerstars win, why change what isn’t broken!

      • Reecius
        Reecius December 6, 2013 11:16 pm #

        Woah, guys, chill. We’re just batting around ideas.

        • Adam
          Adam December 6, 2013 11:20 pm #

          I was super excited to see a hard counter to make those lame lists think twice before auto-winning another big event, only to have it shattered by someone bringing an awful matchup. 😛

          I almost feel like what’s the point in showing up to the LVO with my CSM, I should just bring a Seer/screamer/tidestar.

          • Reecius
            Reecius December 6, 2013 11:26 pm

            But do you think a Super Heavy with D Weapons is the right tool? Or does it make every other list even weaker?

          • Adam
            Adam December 6, 2013 11:44 pm

            Honestly, I don’t think D-weapons are as big of a deal to more balanced lists…

            Really they’re the only hard counter to death stars currently and have no absolutely no way to handle enemy flyers. Add in the bonus VP’s, warlord traits and seize bonus and there is no way you’ll see these guys make the top bracket.

            If you were to do anything, allow super heavies but maybe house-rule D-weapons against vehicles (1=glance, 2-5=pen, 6=explode) or something. I really think that adding more variety of units that can actually get around those 2++ re-rolling save armies is worth every penny!

          • Reecius
            Reecius December 7, 2013 12:18 am

            Yeah perhaps a modification to Str10, AP1, Ignores cover, or something. But we just don’t have time to test it, and effectively communicate it, that is the issue.

          • Adam
            Adam December 7, 2013 1:08 am

            I totally agree, so instead of changing their rules, play a few more games with lists that you would write knowing that super heavies are a thing now.

            My biggest problem with the battle report is that you took probably the super heavy with the most damage output and put it against an army that was in no way prepared.

            If after you play some games where the players are using super heavies and have actually well thought through lists regarding the current meta of the game, you still find that super heavies are sooo much more OP than screamer/seer/tide stars, then I’ll genuinely be shocked.

          • jy2
            jy2 December 7, 2013 8:54 am

            You are trying to fix a problem with an even bigger problem. D-weapons in regular play will over-shadow any othe shenanigans in regular 40K. Eldar are still strong because they have the strongest titans with 9HP or less, but titans will basically relegate most armies to a pittance. I especially feel sorry for Tau, who don’t really have a good titan and who likes to play close together. Other armies without access to D-titans are in even worse positions.

  11. Jason Brown December 6, 2013 11:30 pm #

    Ok this is for adam, grinders have range. At what dose it matter anyhow, I just drag my dude 36 inches across the Megamat and blast you from the other side of the table just to show you who big my e-pen is. Anything that can pretty much auto erase two soul grinders is too much.

    • Adam
      Adam December 7, 2013 1:21 am #

      FOC allowing, 900 points of anti-tank firepower can often kill 2 soul grinders in a turn, coming from 1 model or not.

      Fortunately he had CSM allies, which could have gotten him oblits (which hiding on different levels wont take much damage from destroyer shots), or he could have given his drake a Hades, which would have been totally immune to the Revenant. Flying MC’s also cannot be hit, so a flying circus would actually be a problem for the Revenant… As with any game, if your list doesn’t take into account the units that your opponent can field, you’re going to have a bad time.

  12. Jason Brown December 6, 2013 11:30 pm #

    Prepare for some deep D cannon yo!

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 6, 2013 11:41 pm #

      We found an Eldar Weapon called the D-Impaler! hahaha, no shit, it’s a real weapon in 40K!

  13. jadedknight December 6, 2013 11:32 pm #

    Well this doesn’t really impact my group of friends, we will figure out how to make this work. However, I think tourney’s will be messed up. We play 1000K on a 4×4 at my FLGS. Basically my last summer was spent figuring out how to beat triple riptides at this point level. Blech.

    This makes me want to hibernate through the winter. I’ll sit on it a few weeks though and see what evolves.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 7, 2013 12:15 am #

      It’s rough, but all you have to do is say, hey, we don’t really want to use this unless everyone is on the same page, and it’s a non-issue.

  14. ak_sasquatch December 6, 2013 11:47 pm #

    So I def have no interest in playing a game with super heavies. That’s what they made Apoc for. But for those of you that are interested in playing Escalation don’t spend your hard earned money. This is a post from a few years back i found. This has plans on how to make a titan out of paper. Takes a little work and effort but at least you ain’t paying GW/FW $300-500 for theirs.


    • Reecius
      Reecius December 7, 2013 9:07 am #

      Yeah, Super Heavies are OK I think honestly, it is the D weapons that are insane.

  15. Schadenfreude December 6, 2013 11:58 pm #

    No, but exceptions can be made on a case by case basis by the TO in a published list of acceptable units. If it’s not on the list the answer is no. There are a lot of balanced units that can make the game more fun along with others that are total BS and will ruin the game. Bottom line is I trust Reecius to sepseparate the wheat from the chaff.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 7, 2013 12:19 am #

      Thank you for the vote of confidence =) We will make a good event, no doubt.

  16. Schadenfreude December 7, 2013 12:00 am #

    God damn auto correct on my phone keeps throwing in extra letters into the middle of a word making me sound more illiterate than Frankie.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 7, 2013 12:19 am #

      Hahaha, that is hard to do!

  17. tiber55 December 7, 2013 12:32 am #

    I voted no on the poll as to escalation at LVO

    I don’t think having super heavies at the LVO would be a good thing, but would it be the end of the tournament scene if they were allowed, probably not.

    In a 1750 list the absolute worst that would happen under the current rules is this.

    Revenant pulse cannons

    Storm Wing formation with 2 Talons with skyhammer and a strom raven with bolters


    5x 3 man jetbike units.

    I admit that would be a brutal army, you have a titan 3 flyers and 5 scoring units, but is it unbeatable if you design a list that has tools to handle it, no.

    Also if you look into the rules used in competitive apoc they do this to hamstring the titans so they don’t go turn 1 rampaging armies, so if the tournament scene allowed everything to go but used the T.O.s best weapons to discourage certain army builds i.e. mission tailoring than we would be just fine.

    Look at the gladiator missions for adepticon they have things like putting the most expensive unit in the middle of board in stasis and it has to be woken up. Missions could be made that would discourage the rely on the superheavy to get it done game.

    Also just as an aside the revenant titan may be a legal choice but it really is absolutely the most abusive super heavy, if you banned titans and just let the super heavy tanks play I think it would be pretty much a decent add to the tournament scene as it would give a lot of armies a way to bypass 2++ re-rollable without having to nerf it.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 7, 2013 12:57 am #

      It is the best Super Heavy and as such, the one you will most assuredly see the most =)

      Thanks for voting and sharing your opinion!

  18. Schadenfreude December 7, 2013 12:44 am #

    Going to make a case for the case by case basis.

    Would stomp a or baneblade be all that bad if it could no be effected by friendly powers such as kff, PFG, or prescience? A house rule/FAQ of no allied if a super heavy is taken would also tone them down. Also the beauty of defending a case by case basis is I don’t have to defend broken units like a reverent titan because they would not make the cut on a base by case basis.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 7, 2013 12:58 am #

      We have Stompas and Baneblades, we can try that, too.

      • Adam
        Adam December 7, 2013 1:25 am #

        Maybe I’ll have to come by with my Lord of Awesome!

        • Reecius
          Reecius December 7, 2013 9:08 am #

          Do it!

        • steven morrow December 7, 2013 12:53 pm #

          I want to see one in action .Mostly because I want to use one lol

  19. Schadenfreude December 7, 2013 12:51 am #

    F U in the eye autocorrect. The icing on the typo cake is I have it turned off in phone settings, and can’t use numbers without it going totally berserk.

  20. edwin December 7, 2013 12:52 am #

    That demon list was complete crap for the idea of super heavys. Str D weapons that ignore saves and you take giant point costs creatures? How would that super heavy have faired vs a none mechanized guard list with appropriate AT. How would that have faired against anyone with a transport. That is a huge point cost titan, but if you can alpha strike it after it blows up a few chimera/rhino, you can kill it. Imagine that list vs orks horde. I think there is a better list to try against a titan then the cheese list of doom which would get bent over the table by anything with a D weapon.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 7, 2013 12:56 am #

      We weren’t trying to show a tailored list vs. Titan. We just grabbed the two players available at the time that wanted to give it a go and let them have at it. Jim’s list is a good tournament list, but who at this early stage is ready for Titans? hahah, that wasn’t the point.

      • Adam
        Adam December 7, 2013 1:24 am #

        Yeah, I’d really like to see some battle reports from players with lists that are built knowing about super heavies in the meta! Lets see some of those ASAP before people throw out the baby with the bathwater.

    • Gordy December 7, 2013 1:02 am #

      So low model count armies that rely on being durable lose to superheavies? No more Grey knight or SM players in tournaments ever again, I guess.

      • Adam
        Adam December 7, 2013 1:22 am #

        Don’t confuse the Revenant with all Super Heavies, besides, marines have the best tool in the game for dealing with them.

    • jy2
      jy2 December 7, 2013 9:01 am #

      BTW, I came into the store just expecting to play a normal game and so I brought my normal TAC army. I wasn’t expecting to play a Titan and Escalation game.

      But nonetheless, for people talking crap about my list, you don’t know jack. I honestly felt I had a reasonably chance of winning with my TAC list under the right circumstances (i.e. if I went 1st).

      FMC’s and necron flyers are probably the list that will have the most success against Titans, and Be’Lakor is THE SINGLE best bet for Chaos players against Titans. So call my list crap and I will call you an ignorant troll.

      • Reecius
        Reecius December 7, 2013 9:09 am #

        Woah brotha, let’s tone it done a bit. You’re a top notch player and your list is legit, we know that so no worries.

        • jy2
          jy2 December 7, 2013 9:31 am #

          Sorry about that, but sometimes, you have to speak in stronger tones to get the message across.

          At least that’s one of the perks of being just a normal poster as opposed to a moderator. We can be a little more opinionated. 😉

          • steven morrow December 7, 2013 9:54 am

            I thought your army was fine. The big problem was going second. going first you could have your MFCs up and punishing the enemy army and puppet mastering his titan.

          • steven morrow December 7, 2013 10:02 am

            if your fmcs were on board at the beginning they would have been smoked first turn. so tactically you played well and against any other escalation heavy you would have been in a pretty good spot.

          • Reecius
            Reecius December 7, 2013 11:22 am

            Very true 😉

  21. Schadenfreude December 7, 2013 1:11 am #

    While I think a bane blade is OK on it’s own a pfg prescience librarian or prescience inquisitor with servo skulls would take it over the top for most armies. The same goes for big mek KFF giving cover to a stoma.

    Case by case also requires hurting a lot of feelings and ultimately telling players no, your Necron pylons didn’t make the cut because I said so. I highly recommend having hurt feelings reports available.

  22. steven morrow December 7, 2013 5:00 am #

    Man a platform that can jump 36 ignores enemy hit on 4+ usually and has 4 D weapon shots is retarded. One D weapon is bad enough or is it one is good enough. I dont want to see superheavies banned out right because it gives me something survivable. Without them I might as well not bother playing anyone but my buddies. I dont want to play as tau, taudar, deldar, eldar or daemons. So take the hard move and just flat ban the revenant. lol

    • steven morrow December 7, 2013 7:14 am #

      I have to admit that seeing that titan in action was freaking hilarious. Especially puppet mastered

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 7, 2013 8:01 am #

      Don’t forget it also ignores other weapons (including D!) on a 4+!

      • Jon December 7, 2013 9:04 am #

        Read those rules again, it says the the attacker will hit it on a 4+ not that it’s ignored on a 4+ , plus the revenant is 900 Pts of useless against flyers lol

        • Reecius
          Reecius December 7, 2013 9:10 am #

          Reread it again, my friend =) Before you roll on the Pen or D weapon chart, on a 4+ it is ignored. It is a sort of pseudo save. And we played against 4 flyers in this one and they done got died!

          • Japatoes December 7, 2013 11:55 am

            They died to the intercepting tau who weren’t actually legal, so I think that points kind of mute.

  23. Charlie December 7, 2013 5:31 am #


    Where’s the Skyshield Landing Pad?

    • steven morrow December 7, 2013 7:11 am #

      Are invul saves are useless!!! lol

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 7, 2013 8:01 am #

      D weapons ignore cover and invul saves!

  24. Pascal Roggen December 7, 2013 6:09 am #

    Puppet master the titan.. teehee. the revenant is by far the most problematic. every other lord has 1 shot d’s and it gets 4.. and it’s hyper manoeuvrable, and has great defense.

    All the other supers are fine and are cute ways to deal with the 2+ re rolls. Please play some games with the other D supers and make some lists to try and challenge them.

    3 crimson hunters would wreck a rev titans day:P Necron flyer spam or haywire spam with teleports would also do a number on it.

    If you really want to change up d, make it strength 10 ap1 that makes you reroll saves and have that ability trump all others, like fortune etc.

    • jy2
      jy2 December 7, 2013 9:04 am #

      Don’t forget Warhound titans. They have 4 D-blasts as well and they’re much, much cheaper than the Revenant (but not as good).

      • Japatoes December 7, 2013 11:57 am #

        But they’re not in escalation, so you don’t need to worry about them.

  25. FuriousFurball December 7, 2013 6:41 am #

    I for one welcome our new apocalyptic Overlords, i feel reassured and safe knowing the outcome of the battle is determined after the seize the initiative roll, no longer do we need to worry 3 or 4 turns to see who gets the upper hand.


    • Reecius
      Reecius December 7, 2013 9:11 am #

      It is all very quick and tidy, now!

  26. Jon December 7, 2013 6:51 am #

    I say let it all roll, let’s also not forget the stronghold assult book, just take a void sheiks generator. I was actually not going but if these to books are allowed I will defianatly go as now I have hope that all the games I play will not be screamerstar, wave serpent spam, seerstar, at feast of blades in 7 games I played 6 games facing those lists, If that’s not the epitome of boring not fun games which is what u guys seem to be worried about it’s not gonna change by banning these books. Ur going to have 300 people at this tourny with about 200 of them being taudar. At least with these books u can add some spice and people should not be blindsided being 2 months out, if ur an avid gamer this 2 books should be no surprise and if u have spent a hundreds of dollars to make the army ur taking to LVO buying one more big kit for a superheavy or fortification with a D weapon with 2 months to paint should not be thing. I for one as well as our group will not be attending if these books r banned if all we should expect is seerstar/screamerstar/taudar. Feast of blades was boring just due to that, lol even the awards ceremony was boring as they announced the winners for each bracket was taudar and top table was tau vs eldar, BORING….

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 7, 2013 9:12 am #

      Void Shields don’t really help, honestly. Read the rules for them again and you’ll see what I am saying.

      • steven morrow December 7, 2013 12:50 pm #

        Well since every generator has can have up to 3 shields and with a void relay network you can have from 1-3 generators thats a lot of shields. plus with the promethium relay pipes you can have as well for direct cover saves as well. This can shut down a whole lot of alpha strike. And each individual shield will regenerate on 5+. so you have to get into the shield to get any work done.

  27. 6thstreetAlan December 7, 2013 7:58 am #

    Warmachine could get ready for a drastic increase in sales.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 7, 2013 9:13 am #

      I don’t think it’s all that bad. We just need to choose to restrict some stuff.

    • steven morrow December 7, 2013 9:48 am #

      Maybe 40k should go 2 list format with character restrictions too. LOL

  28. Conflagration December 7, 2013 8:19 am #

    The Apocalypse Has Come: All supplements, codices, formations, escalation, fortifications, everything. All of it. The power level is absurd, but that appeals to some people.

    A Tactical Affair: Codices, Supplements, Allies matrix. Done. No detachments outside Primary and Allied, plus 1 fortification slot. Fairly better balanced and more reasonable.

    Loyal To The End: Codices, no allies, no supplements, one fortification slot. More tight reigned, removing a lot of broken combos cross faction.

    The Elite Few: Codices, no allies, supplements allowed, one fortification slot, no more than 1 of any unit. So 1 warpspider unit, 1 wave serpent, etc. Super strict, but might appeal to a few.

    This is a copy and paste from dakka. I would love to see something like this in tournaments. There is to much crap conning out and in truth it making it not fun anymore. I for one already hated apoc so I never played it now its being forced down my throut. Players are saying oh more anti tank :/. I seen games anti tank is shot at a 2 hull point armor 10 skimmer and it won’t die.

    • Hotsauceman1 December 7, 2013 8:26 am #

      So I cannot have my biker spam army? I mean whenyou limit one unit your are effectively saying that alot of my collection is defunct.

    • Jon December 7, 2013 8:43 am #

      Then shoot that skimmer with a D weapon!!

  29. jy2
    jy2 December 7, 2013 9:10 am #

    Here’s the problem. You may say that my list wasn’t suited to fighting Titans or whatever. The thing is, probably about 90% of the gamers out there – the “masses” – aren’t competitive players, don’t keep up with what’s recent, don’t have ipads or tablets to download the newest crazes or just plain don’t have the resources to “modernize” their armies to be able to deal with titans. And what happens when these players get blind-sided by them in a tournament? They leave with a sour taste in their mouth.

    I’ll tell you this much, you are just going to hurt the gaming community and local tounament scene by allowing them this early. It is too much too soon. People need time to adjust. No, I’m not talking about the Internet geeks who keep up with this crap. I’m talking about the masses who don’t but still go to tournaments.

    • bogalubov December 7, 2013 11:25 am #

      I think you’re contradicting yourself a bit here. You say that the “masses” don’t adjust to the latest and greatest and they will be blind sided by the D-weapons. Then you say that time is necessary for people to adjust. If the “masses” don’t adjust either way, then giving them more time is irrelevant.

      I’ll give you my perspective as part of the “masses”. I go to tournaments because that’s the quickest way for me to play a bunch of games of 40k. I normally don’t have time to play multiple games during the week. Frequently, I don’t even play 1 game. So finding a weekend where I can play 5 games is a great way to keep playing. Plus I get to meet people in the hobby and have a few beers.

      I assume that either rd 1 or rd 2 I will get pummeled by the latest and greatest. Then after I lose I will slide down to play people who brought lists of similar power. I don’t care what list is going to crush me in those early games. Council, wave serpent spam, screamers, titans. It’s all the same to me. I will not run out and buy a titan, nor will I buy a bunch of seers or screamers.

      I imagine that most other people who are part of the “masses” have a similar view. Otherwise we would have quit a long time ago.

      • jy2
        jy2 December 7, 2013 12:07 pm #

        There really isn’t any contradiction. Given time, some people may change. Some people may update. Some people will even start to enjoy Escalation. After all, people are dynamic, not static. Give them enough time and they will eventually either adjust or leave the game.

        However, it is just too fast too soon. I can guarantee you that many will get blindsided by Titans and how powerful they are the first time they play against them, and people won’t like it. No one likes to put models on the table only to have to remove them before they get a chance to do anything at all. And nobody likes to play against an army where they have no chance of survival at all, not even a save. These types of units have to be broken into the masses slowly and not given carte blanche, especially at a major tournament that is only 2 months away.

        While not every casual player will be discouraged after playing against a Titan, IMO there are also many who will. Give them time. To force them to have to play at an event where they’re most likely spending $500-$1000+ (depeding how far they have to travel) and have a bad time is just not good business.

        • steven morrow December 7, 2013 1:13 pm #

          I do think people will need to get the time to get a hold on them. 2 months is not a lot of time. These new rules throws all previous lists as they are run right now out the window. I feel that a few months to get used to the new rules is a good compromise to allow people to not only get used to fighting them but also so people learn the rules right so rules mistakes dont become a huge issue mid tournament. Everyone should be patient. I myself love the options a lord of battle gives my Chaos marine army for something that can give and take a beating and take some pressure off my other daemon engines on the field.

  30. jy2
    jy2 December 7, 2013 9:13 am #

    I personally wouldn’t allow super-heavies at this point in time. It’s still too early.

    But if I did, it would be in a separate tournament that is advertised as such. Much like the Adepticon Championships (normal 40K) and Gladiator (1 super-heavy allowed) events. This way, people know what they are getting into.

  31. jy2
    jy2 December 7, 2013 9:25 am #

    Here’s some very good insight from William (aka ImotekhTheStormlord on dakka):

    The problem, in my opinion, with D-Weapons in normal games is that it renders so much of the armies bland and meaningless. Tanks, whether rhinos or landraiders will get popped just as quickly, as will infantry, whether paladins or grots.

    The only things that are relevant are the titan, the few things that can kill the titan, and minimum cost scoring units. Draigowing is dead, screamerstar is dead, Seer Council is dead, anything that remotely resembles a small, elite army is dead.

    So much flavor of the game vanishes under a pummeling from the D.

    Any sane TO should ban these things.

    • Japatoes December 7, 2013 12:06 pm #

      Just throwing out huge blanket statements.

      I run a BA/SM army with 36 models in it. My list on the forum here if you want to look. I’d consider it a small elite army, and I think it stands a good chance at taking down a super heavy.

      I don’t think all small elite armies are dead, but those super abusive ones are : )

      • jy2
        jy2 December 7, 2013 12:13 pm #

        Maybe…but remember, you are playing not just against a Super-heavy, but against an actual army. The super-heavy isn’t the only thing you have to worry about and it certainly isn’t the only thing that can kill your army.

        Small Elitist armies aren’t dead. They just have a mountain to climb in order to pull off a win against an Escalation army with D-weapons.

  32. Conflagration December 7, 2013 9:33 am #

    I am not for or against seer star, screamer star, or the current meta but super heavys are not the answer for those current power list. Be’Lakor was a great addition to 40k it adds depth to 40k but doesn’t break it.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 7, 2013 11:23 am #

      A lot of folks feel the same way as you do.

  33. joedrache December 7, 2013 9:38 am #

    well the LVO is also hosting an apoc game- bring your titans there, i’ve got some D for em.

    if you dont want to play titans- play in the tourney, (but then yes, you will be back to the annoying death stars)

    i think even 2 months is not enough time for the community to adjust to this. plus escalation only allows a handful of the available titans and many armies have no access to D per the escalation rules.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 7, 2013 11:23 am #

      That is my feelings almost exactly.

  34. jy2
    jy2 December 7, 2013 10:04 am #

    I shudder at the thought of facing your Imperator Titan with anything but an all-flyer army. Well, at least in Apoc, reserves come in starting on Turn 1. 😉

  35. Bjørn O December 7, 2013 10:27 am #

    I need to know if this is “official” as in “no need to ask your opponent’s permission” or if it’s an optional expansion. Anyone?

    • jy2
      jy2 December 7, 2013 11:03 am #

      It is “official” so if a tournament doesn’t do anything about it, then you can bring it. Make sure to check with the tournament that you are planning to attend first.

      I don’t recommend bringing one in a normal game without letting your opponent know in advance. Blind-side him with it and trust me, he isn’t going to like it.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 7, 2013 11:24 am #

      It is official, no need to ask. I didn’t see anything in the book that indicated that you needed to ask.

  36. Amberclad87 December 7, 2013 11:03 am #

    It seems like the big problem is D-weapons and not super-heavies? I would love to see some bat reps with baneblades and stompas. Maybe just a flat ban on D-weapons is the answer? I do feel like more play testing is needed and not making judgements on knee-jerk reactions.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 7, 2013 11:27 am #

      D weapons are OTT, no doubt. We’re trying “normal” super heavies today.

  37. jack sparrow December 7, 2013 11:57 am #

    How is escalation different from cities of death or planet strike. Its not like ppl show up and play those rules without asking first.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 7, 2013 4:46 pm #

      Nothing in it mentions anything about permissions, etc. It is presented as stock standard 40K.

  38. Callofdoobie December 7, 2013 1:25 pm #

    For the people supporting this in tourney, play are you effffinnnngggg serious right now? Just because screamerstar and seer councils exist we should add a $500 win button to the game? Mind you screamerstar and seer councils can be beaten with strategy and tactics, what strategy do you have against 4 pie plates that only need to touch a unit and kill it? The guys trying to spin this like it only hurts cheesy lists are hilarious. Yea bro, your fluffy, balanced lists that are paragons of purity in all ways (not like those evil tournament lists!) will get D’d just as bad if not worse as these so called “broken” lists you love to cry about on your soap box. Str D in regular 40k is gamebreaking as it was NEVER designed to work in standard 40k (no matter how many fancy warlord traits and bonuses to seizing you add).

    The other argument i’m hearing “well you should be prepared for it!”, for realz? I HAVE to tailor my lists now otherwise I should be fully expecting to get D’d all over the table? Or as someone noted above, what if my army’s strength is to rush in? Daemons and Nids’ dont have much long range shooting, most of what they do isn’t THAT great. So now I have to play my Daemons like Tau, which they suck at, if I want to beat a Titan? You do realize even if Jy2 had spamed as much shooting as possible he still wouldn’t of come close to having enough firepower to compete with that? Don’t smack talk a players abilities or game plan when you don’t seem to understand the codex they were using.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 9, 2013 7:55 am #

      I agree with you, it is too much too soon for tournaments at this point in time. I think that may change as we learn more, but not for now.

  39. Siphen December 7, 2013 1:47 pm #

    Looking forward to seeing a Stompa or Baneblade battle report. I’d also like to see some Gargantuan Creatures tested out, maybe even the Transcendent C’Tan with his Strength D shenanigans (Transliminal Stride and Wave of Withering).
    I suspect that ANY Strength D weapons will have a massive impact, but maybe if they’re not on the Revenant, they’ll be much more manageable.

    • steven morrow December 7, 2013 1:55 pm #

      4 D shots and 36 inch jump move is just ugly.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 7, 2013 4:47 pm #

      Just filmed it! Will be ready by tomorrow. WAAAAY more enjoyable.

  40. Inquisitor Dunn December 7, 2013 5:21 pm #

    This Battle report was sad. Points are the new limiting factor to what you can put in an army, and this report ignored that by playing the tau formation wrong. Next sad panda feature was a daemon army my SoB coul beat in their sleep. No long range shooting and no flying monsters….

    This battle report looks staged to promote an anti Escalation view point. I really think Stronghold Assault has some tools to balance out Escalation.

    It would be nice to see a game where both armies are built to face each other.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 9, 2013 8:02 am #

      Our battle report was staged? Hahahaha, ok, if you say so.

      And armies built to face one another…because we all have so much experience with the supplement that was a day old!

      And there were FMCs, three of them, and that Daemon list has won tournaments dude, but hey, you can beat it in your sleep.

      Anyway, not to be overly sarcastic, but you are seeing things in this report that aren’t there.

  41. Charlie December 8, 2013 4:04 am #

    Definitely not an autowin. I already fear a well designed Space Marine army against my Revenant.

    However, what I do think a problem will be is trying to develope the kind of list that can handle a Revenant Titan, Screamer Star, various Tau/Eldar builds and everything in between. But, I’m willing to bet those folks who consistently place highly will figure it out and still win their games.

    But, on a more positive note, I think armies using things like Revanants will speed up the game. When you have less than 30 models, I think folks can finish a 1750-2000 point game in less than 2 1/2 hours 😉

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 9, 2013 7:58 am #

      The game was done in like 40 minutes! haha

  42. Bjørn O December 8, 2013 6:10 am #

    Right-o, so GW went off the deep end. I won’t be playing this shit.

  43. Bjørn O December 8, 2013 8:04 am #

    Do D-weapons actually require tactics? Because it seems like they’re written kind of like kindergarten rules, where you just point and something and go “you dead”and just ignore the other player’s involvement in the game.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 8, 2013 10:57 pm #

      Essentially that is correct.

  44. jy2
    jy2 December 8, 2013 10:11 am #

    Wow, this thread is appearing BOLS-ish in terms of the amount of its comments.

    • Orthon December 8, 2013 1:52 pm #

      Frontlinegaming is better than BOLS in my opinion.

      * Frontline gaming: Best video battle reports in my opinion because of the hilarity. More milk drinking contests, InControl, and Frankie! Serious games are great too and are really competitive.
      * Faeit 212: Best rumors
      * 3plusplus: Best tactica articles
      * Dakkadakka: Best forum. jy2 has the best picture based battle reports.
      * Belloflostsouls: Best front page aggregator, but a lot of the content is not very good or old/rehashes of other sites.
      * 11thcompany: Best podcast

      Really it is not GW that makes this game great.

      • Reecius
        Reecius December 8, 2013 10:58 pm #

        I am glad we are in the pantheon of greatness! =)

  45. ligolski December 8, 2013 4:29 pm #

    Hey Reecius, I’ve been watching your stuff from BoLS when it appears and I like it a lot. I agree D-weapons are pretty ridiculous, however what I haven’t seen is taking this into account with the new fortifications. There are ways to counter D cannon shots using void shields and what not. While not the greatest way to balance them there is at least other options besides purely what an army brings. If I spend some pts on void shields to protect some heavy duty AT I could rip into a super heavy pretty good…revanant is a different level of course and I have no idea how that works necessarily, but I think it’s something to think about. The game must be looked at in its entire context and thus the new fortification rules as well!

    ligs (from The Dark City)

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 8, 2013 11:00 pm #

      Thanks for the support, Ligs!

      And yeah, we will try with fortifications, too. See if that helps in some way, I would just be sad to see the fortifications become a necessity to play the dang game.

  46. FR December 9, 2013 1:30 am #

    New to the game so not an opinion with weight to it.

    The game seems to have a good chance of being fun/competitive after several turns even with a screamerstar or deercouncil etc in it although I would prefer not to face them.

    Even if you could beat a D weapon equipped super heavy however, it seems to turn the game into a glorified version of Tic-Tac-Toe.

    So its less about winning to me than losing a lot of the back and forth that made the game interesting (from watching people play and videos/blogs since I’m new) as opposed to knowing who wins after a turn or two.

    Then in a tourney I could see how things could get tricky for a TO when you begin to have to include/exclude certain units/models/weapons from this new introduction as it will cause questions/arguments about not allowing other broken elements of the game to be included since tourneys would be more focused on fairness then only fun.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 9, 2013 8:00 am #

      For a new player you sure hit the nail on the head. These new units complicate things quite a bit. And again, it’s not the Super Heavies so much as the D Weapons themselves that really bug me. Can you beat them? Sure. Do you really want to play with them? Not me.

  47. flomofo(FR) December 9, 2013 2:04 pm #

    TO’s already do things differently tourney to tourney so if super heavies workout, then you guys could work out rules for each super heavy including Revenants to allow them into tournaments.

    Although as has already been said, it would take some time to test and a majority of players to approve it.

    So how many restrictions would certain super heavies be looking at? No D weapons, movement changes, no Stomp attacks if they basically are D weapons when combined with large movement…

    If the tourneys get big enough it could create a different “weight class” for people to compete in like they do in racing. So you can show up to a tourney and compete in more than one event to make your travel time worth it.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 9, 2013 3:29 pm #

      We were thinking about that, too. We could have different style of events to allow different types of lists. That would be fun but it also creates a lot more logistical issues for organizers.

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