Signals from the Frontline 139: Table Top Gaming News, Rumors, List Reviews

Signals from the Frontline

Signals from the Frontline

Signals from the Frontline 139: Table Top Gaming News, Rumors, List Reviews

Press play to listen to the podcast!

Tags:

About Reecius

The fearless leader of the intrepid group of gamers gone retailers at Frontline Gaming!

68 Responses to “Signals from the Frontline 139: Table Top Gaming News, Rumors, List Reviews”

  1. 6thstreetAlan April 9, 2013 10:42 am #

    Hey Guys!

    Love you guys keep up the 40k chatter!

    I agree with the idea that every list can get beaten regardless of what you have as long as your opponent has the right tools and the ability to take it out. Now I have always been very much against Forgeworld but after attending the BAO I will be incorporating it into our Chicago AWC events next year.

    That being said I think we will need to have restrictions on Forgeworld because they could really make some crazy armies. I mean IG with 9 Sabre, 3 Thud Guns, Earth shakers, and Vulture mixed in with something that can get in between your IG and opponent there is really not too much you can do. Its a extreme amount of output fire power with the ability to keep your opponent at bay.

    We will be including Forgeworld with a 0-1 on each unit to ensure no spamming of them and maybe even a maximum of 3 FW units per list.

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 9, 2013 11:39 am #

      Limitations on FW aren’t a bad thing, it can definitely help to ease the transition, too. The thing is, I look at this like a new “Leaf Blower” style list. It really is not a new concept, just a new application. If you go second against it, and play into it’s game, you lose. Tactics, as always, is the solution.

  2. Blackmoor April 9, 2013 12:23 pm #

    Yeah sure.

    You will never reach it alive. It has such firepower that what gets to him is chewed up and the the blob squad that he has screening his artillery will beat you in assault.

    You do not see the synergy that his list has. He cast prescience on his medusa battery and his earthshaker cannons so he almost always hits, then he gives them the order to re- roll cover saves. Those kill so much that we do not even have to talk about his infantry shooting, his 20 TL shots from his vulture or his sabers.

    And I did assault him and I got beat in assault.

  3. Blackmoor April 9, 2013 12:34 pm #

    The fact that you say that he only has a grey hunter squad for counter assault shows a willful ignorance of this list. IG blob squads are hard as nails in assault.

    Every thing you can think of to best this list Doug has thought of a counter.

    His artillery can’t move and dies if it runs? He just takes a commissar lord with a company standard so he re-rolls leadership 10.

    He puts his aegis wall in a corner backed up by his blob squad and his artillery in the far back. He fills the area so he can’t be outflanked or deep struck on. And you can’t kill all of those wounds from his artillery. All he has to do is go to ground/get back in the fight against the one army that can hurt it a little (DE) before it gets blown off of the table.

    The only way you can beat it is to do what Alan did against it…stall so your game ends on turn 3.

    • SCP Yeeman April 9, 2013 1:14 pm #

      I beat Doug at BAO this year in my last game. It sounds like he ran a very similar list, barring the 250pt difference at the Broadside Bash. I won because I got into assault with my Beast Squad and killed his blob, and his 2 22 man crews that manned his big artillery guns. I shot his Sabres off the board with my Venoms. I blew his Vulture up with one of my fliers. So I guess there is atleast two ways to beat the list he brought.

      His list is tough, but it is kinda of a one trick pony. He shoots, prays he doesnt scatter, prays you dont make saves, then does the same thing the next turn. I would find his list very boring to play and am glad I never caught the IG bug.

      As far as being “hard as nails” in assault, I dont quite see how that can be. What did you assault him with? You should kill so many Guardsman that his “hard as nails” Sergeants or Commissars with Axes shouldnt be able to get into CC. If this didnt happen, you didnt assault him with enough things, and that wasn’t very smart.

      It just sounds like you didnt have anything in your list to deal with anything that can strike you at distance. Sounds like you didnt take IG artillery into account when making your list.

      With your point about not getting there, dont you play Grey Knights? Can’t you Deep Strike? DSing gets you there rather fast I would assume. Might not be ideal, but it sounds better than walking like you did into a bunch of large blasts.

      • Blackmoor April 9, 2013 2:01 pm #

        I did deep strike. He has an officer of the fleet so I am +1 on the reserve rolls. That is good because I wanted to keep my army off the board as long as possible to try to stay alive. On turn #3 I roll to high and I drop down with 2 10-man squads combated to 4 5-man squads. One of them misshaped and went back in reserve. The rest ate intercepting lascannons, and tried to kill his command squad (and failed). The I ate the 4 large blast templates and his shooting. He did have a bad round of shooting, but his earthshaker cannons pinned one of my squads. So on my turn I had one squad of three guys, and 2 squads of 2 (one of them was pinned). My 3 man squad could have assaulted a platoon command squad or his giant blob. I chose the platoon command hoping he would stay in combat, but he ran. The other 2 man squad charged a 10- man IG squad and he killed one on over watch, and beat the last guy in assault. Then the next turn he finished the off.

    • Hippesthippo April 9, 2013 1:45 pm #

      My question is this: Why do you keep playing in tournaments with forgeworld when all you do is whine when you lose?

      • Blackmoor April 9, 2013 2:08 pm #

        I am done with FW tournaments. I canceled my ticket and flight to Wargames con because of it.

        If forge world is the future then I need to work on my Retribution of Scyrah army.

        • Reecius
          Reecius April 9, 2013 2:19 pm #

          Hahahaha, really? Really? You, who play Darigowing, one of the most hated and chessey lists 5th ed, one which I personally HATED and when you face something that you have trouble beating, you take your toys and go home? Hahaha, come on Alan, that is childish. I seriously detested Draigowing last edition (and Grey Knights in general) but I would never, ever say that someone couldn’t use them or I wouldn’t play at a tournament that allowed them because they were hard for me to beat, or I didn’t like them. That’s silly.

          Practice makes the master. You have to learn to beat a list, it isn’t something that just happens. Plus Doug is one of the best players out there. Take your lumps like a man and learn to play through it instead of quitting. I know you are a smart enough player to figure it out, just don’t expect to play a 5th ed list in a 6th ed environment and not have to evolve.

          • Blackmoor April 9, 2013 2:54 pm
            #

            Well part of the reason why is while I was down at kingdom com I ran into Shep and some of the other sprue posse boys, and some other old competitive 40k players that were friends of mine that are now all playing warmachine so I thought I would give it a try.

            As far as Wargames con goes it is the most expensive tournament with $100+ ticket, $125 a night hotel room and $500 round trip flight. If I am paying a grand for a GT it will not be for one with FW.

            There are just to many broken IG units (mostly because of 6th editions artillery rule) to be horrible for competitive play. Helldrakes are bad, but the FW stuff is a whole new level.

            If a tournament uses forge world there either needs to be a list of banned units or limits to either the amount of units or the points spent on it.

          • Reecius
            Reecius April 9, 2013 3:04 pm
            #

            Well now you are at least speaking reasonably. Proposing limitations and such is fine. It seemed like you were throwing a temper tantrum.

            I honestly don’t the IG stuff is OP. It is super good, but things like Drop Pod Wolves with JotWW obliterate most of their stuff (auto-fail the Initiative test). Venoms, Poison assault units, killing the leadership buffing units first, etc., etc., etc.

            I honestly think Hell Turkey is WAY worse. A lot of armies have no answer to it, particularly without FW.

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 9, 2013 1:59 pm #

      First of all Alan, I am not trying to pick a fight with you. I just want to put that out there right now. You just have a tendency to be very negative on FW, and getting beaten by an army with lots of it would most likely result in you talking about.

      I am not going to go in a tit for tat argument for you as you are probably feeling defensive right now and it wouldn’t sink in anyway. I will just leave it at: his army is beatable.

  4. jy2
    jy2 April 9, 2013 12:41 pm #

    Obviously hasn’t gone up against an Eldar/DE seer council with Fortune and Invisibility. Paper, meet scissors.

    • Blackmoor April 9, 2013 1:13 pm #

      You do not realize the firepower, even with fortune.

      And you forgot his rune priests. He blocks one of the councils powers and they are done. Not only that but you are looking at 2 rolls on the divination table rolls so they have powers like ignore cover, re-roll saves, prescience, counter-attack and over watch on full BS, etc.

      And all people can come up with are odd armies that you never see at tournaments because they get beat- down by other armies.

      • jy2
        jy2 April 10, 2013 12:58 am #

        Oh, believe me. I know the firepower. I also feel that the resiliency of a seer council is frickin insane. Honestly, that is one of the stupidest army/unit to play against. If you get 1st turn, you may have a slight chance. Otherwise you are in trouble, especially if you are a less-than-mobile army like a static gunline.

        Ignoring cover helps but not by much. They’ve still got re-rollable 3+ and 4++ saves.

        You’re bringing rune priests? Then I’ll just trail my jetseers out of range of your RP’s because my bikes can turbo fricking 36″!!! Then watch his RP’s die to Runes of Warding.

        Doug’s army is good, but DE/Eldar seer council is probably the worst possible matchup for him that I can think of.

        • Blackmoor April 10, 2013 12:53 pm #

          Here is the problem, if the seer council goes second he hits you with 4 blasts before they get any defensive powers off. So there is a good chance that you lose the game on the first turn dice roll.

          And even if you hit the castle he has flyers shredding your troops. He does not have everything in there.

          • jy2
            jy2 April 10, 2013 2:41 pm
            #

            Then you deploy right along your board edge at maximum coherency. And if it is night-fight, then his artillery may not even shoot at you at all since most artillery pieces are deployed far in the back and will most likely be more than 36″ away. You may lose a couple of models, but it is hardly an auto-loss.

            I believe he’s got 1, maybe 2 flyers? Turbo-boosting guardian jetbikes can easily manuever into the “blind spots” of flyers or even hide behind LOS-blocking terrain and they will be in reserves anyways.

            There is nothing here that psychic buffs and some tactics won’t solve or at least help to minimize. Seer council Deldar isn’t the most balanced army and they do have some weaknesses. Forgeworld-heavy IG just isn’t one of them IMO.

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 9, 2013 1:59 pm #

      That’s exactly what he said: Poison Weapons are his bane.

  5. Invok93 April 9, 2013 1:05 pm #

    Does anyone have the acctual list? Hard to have an educated opinion without knowing what was in it 😛

  6. Hippesthippo April 9, 2013 1:22 pm #

    Beat by a pedophile… Ouch.

  7. Hippesthippo April 9, 2013 1:53 pm #

    Teleport, cast Nightmare Shroud.. Bye bye board edge artillery.

    Also, dogs are really good.

  8. Blackmoor April 9, 2013 2:12 pm #

    So that is the answer for my Grey Knight army, just teleport and use nightmare shroud and use beasts and poison weapons.

    • SCP Yeeman April 9, 2013 2:38 pm #

      The answer would be to change up your list and adapt it to 6th Ed, not run the same lists that used to do well in 5th Ed.

      You didnt do too hot at BAO, did you just add points to that army and hope to do better? Obvously something isn’t working.

      I guess it is easier to just give up and not play if FW is allowed than to adapt and play.

    • Hippesthippo April 9, 2013 7:49 pm #

      I’m making a point that lots of armies have ways to deal with it.

      Maybe it is time for you to reconsider your army and admit that Draigowing just isn’t that great in 6th ed. For a multitude of reasons.

      It’s not right to blame everyone else for your failings, that’s all.

      I’m not trying to pick fights.

      • Hippesthippo April 9, 2013 7:59 pm #

        When building lists for tournies, particularly those with FW, you know you have to bring something to deal with artillery. Just like you have to deal with flyers, hordes, and AV13.. Cause guess what, that’s what’s good in this edition.

        Maybe you’re just late to the party? I think you yourself mentioned you’d been on a break or something since 6th dropped and are still figuring things out. Cant expect to just drop back in and immediately dominate again.

        • Blackmoor April 10, 2013 7:37 am #

          You know that I went undefeated on day #1 (4 games) at the BAO and worked my way up to table 3 where I lost to Lizz who was using broken flamers and screamers only because of her insanely hot dice.

          If you think that was doing bad, ok.

          In 40k there are 3 pieces of artillery and they are good, but not great. FW artillery is incredibly good. They are nearly impossible to take out. Even if you have a weapon that can do it he can just go- to-ground/get back in the fight for a 2+ cover save.

          Yes Doug lost to DE but I will bet he never played against them before. Once you play them you know how they work and he will know that the beast pack is the priority and needs to die. Heck, if Doug’s IG goes first they rain death down on it before and spells get to be cast and the game is over before it begins.

          • SCP Yeeman April 10, 2013 8:27 am
            #

            You got up to table 3, but lost your last 3 games and finished 68th, if thats good, then ok.

            Well I asked Doug if he had played them before and he said yes. He also deployed in the opposite corner of my Beasts and had 3 turns to fire at them before they did anything. They still survived after he poured firepower into them and still did work.

            It seems that you like to find excuses for shortcomings rather than solutions. You made excuses about BAO and from people I’ve talked to and evidence in this thread your making excuses for Broadside Bash. There seems to be a pattern here…

          • jy2
            jy2 April 10, 2013 9:25 am
            #

            @ SCP Yeeman

            Speaking of beastpacks, I’ve played against them 3 times in an Eldar/DE army and in all 3 games, I’ve wasted them with no problems. Tesla destructors and Precision Shot flyrants have no problems with them.

            What I can’t figure out is how to kill his Seer Council so I 1) tie them up with a lot of gribblies and TMC’s or 2) ignore them and fed them some wraiths to play around with while I went after the rest of his army.

          • Reecius
            Reecius April 10, 2013 9:34 am
            #

            See, Beasts own my face (Swarmy’s all I’ve got in that arena, and if they have Vect, he’s got decent odds to take Swarmy down), but I can take Seer Council’s down no problem through volume of attacks. Every army has its strengths and weaknesses just as every player does.

          • jy2
            jy2 April 10, 2013 9:59 am
            #

            @ Reecius

            Another reason why flyrants are so useful. They will really mess up a beastpack and insta-gib those razorwing flocks with Precision Shot.

            If the Deldar player is playing it right, even Swarmy wouldn’t survive. Assuming they can get Terrify (4 chances), terrify the big fellow and then multi-charge him and a unit of gants. If gants are screening, then clear a few with Destructors targeted at Swarmy behind them first. Then challenge Swarmy with a warlock to limit his destructive capabilities and let combat res against the gants (or whatever gribblies are nearby) do the rest.

            That was how Grant took out my wraithstar and almost took out a tervigon. Yeah, Terrify can be a b*tch!

            Not saying tyranids can’t beat out the seer council or deldar (I am 1-1 against them with my bugs), but having to deal with 2 hammer units – the seer council and a large beastpack – is a royal pain-in-the-arse.

          • Reecius
            Reecius April 10, 2013 10:14 am
            #

            I agree, that is a nasty, nasty army to face. Eldar/DE is BRUTAL for Nids. That is the one and only army I fear with my Bugs.

  9. Sean Ireland April 10, 2013 7:58 am #

    This thread is fantastic.

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 10, 2013 8:14 am #

      Frontline usually stays a really friendly place, but even here we get the occasional bickering. I suppose it is inevitable with the internet.

  10. Chas April 10, 2013 9:23 am #

    Well I think a solution to FW would be as someone suggested is to allow it but limit it. I would not want to she’ll out that kind of money to go knowing that a leaf blower build was back in the game let alone there are people willing to bring such douchery.

    That being said if changes aren’t made to even out the field then I’m thinking a lot will move on to something else which could be bad for everyone. There needs to be an effort to level out the system to try and balance as much as possible. It would be nice if forgeworld had stuff for every army that could be just as cheesy but they don’t. So we are looking at the cant beat um join um mentality which sucks.

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 10, 2013 9:36 am #

      That’s the thing though, FW is not, at all unbeatable. We play with is routinely at Frontline. All of us like, have and use FW. The knowledge gap for us is pretty close to 0, where with plays that don’t know it, it is a big gulf. Familiarity is what gets you over that hump, and that comes from experience. Just like Leaf Blower last edition was a flash in the pan (lists and tactics came out to beat it) so is this new trend. All it will take, honestly, is time and experience to see ways to defeat it.

      However, that said, i am not opposed to a FW unit cap for the first year to get people acclimated to it.

      • Hippesthippo April 10, 2013 12:54 pm #

        Having played in FW tournaments, I’m not opposed to it. It doesn’t scare me or make the game less fun. However, a few things do standout.
        1) It makes IG really good, and really has very little else to offer.
        2) The game, as it stands today, is plenty balanced already. FW only detracts from this. People say FW fixes the flyer problem, however, a) Flyers aren’t a problem if you know what you’re doing. B) Tau “fix,” flyers without having to dip into the realm of rules that UK testers admit aren’t playtested for balance.

        The biggest problem is that nobody else is using it except Guard players and Tetras. That is it. Nobody is busting out their “pretty models,” because the pretty FW models all suck.

        • SCP Yeeman April 10, 2013 1:02 pm #

          plus not all armies have an array of FW models. IG and Space marines have the most. Nids, Tau, Eldar, and now Necrons have good amoutn as well. My Dark have 3 models.

          I could care less about FW, because like you said Hip, you can beat fliers without Sabre Platforms or FW fliers. If you have a nice, balanced list, you can handle anything. This is where tactics come into play. All the Necron Air Forces out there pray and hope they dont run into people with 3 Vendettas and a Quad Gun or don’t play in FW allowed tournaments because they think their army will get smoked. So instead of playing the army you spent $100’s of dollars on, they rage quit and dont play. Instead of adapting your army and realizing it isn’t the end all be all you think it is, you rage quit. It’s funny and I don’t feel sorry for these peopel at all.

          Bottom line: If you run a FW tournament, cool. If you don’t, cool. My list is nice and balanced and could care less about FW or not. My only complaint is I dont have a plethora of models that some armies do.

        • Reecius
          Reecius April 10, 2013 2:47 pm #

          I agree that Imperial Armies benefit the most do to having the most options, but Imperial armies are already good.

          I don’t think FW throws balance off at all, personally. I think it helps. Everyone’s experiences are different of course, and once bad game against something new can sour a person to it.

          Tau definitely help against a flyer heavy list, but if you are playing DA and have no AA and do draw that Hell Turkey list, you’ll be wishing you had some Hyperios, a Conetmptor, etc. to even the odds.

          And, most importantly, they’re fun to use.

          Your analysis about no one using pretty models is off. I see people bringing all kinds of stuff to events, and we’ve run 3 big ones. A lot of FW stuff is not that good, but a lot of stuff in the regular books isn’t either! haha. And a lot of stuff in the regular books is broken, under-priced, etc. No FW unit is more out of whack than a Vendetta, Hell Turkey, etc. Peopel are just used to those and deal with it.

          • Hippesthippo April 10, 2013 6:53 pm
            #

            I’m pretty sure every army that “needs,” allied Sabres also has the ability to take allied Tau.

            Also, is it too much for Chaos to have ONE unit that is worth taking? Let them have their one. A good player should be able to handle ONE good unit without needing a FW crutch.

      • Hippesthippo April 10, 2013 12:58 pm #

        MVBrandt said it best. The only players using FW are the ones trying to break the game. Not the average tourney gamer looking to get a bunch of fun games in with pretty models over a weekend.

        For this reason, I understand Blackmoors reluctance to accept FW. I just think he’s going about it the wrong way.

        • Reecius
          Reecius April 10, 2013 2:40 pm #

          I TOTALLY disagree with the statement that the only players using FW are those trying to break the game. Like, 100%. Having now run 3 big events with FW, I can tell you without hesitation, the majority of the players who have been using FW, have been using it because they have the models. I saw a lot of non-optimized units on the table top in every event. And, so far, we’ve only had one event winner with it, and he only had 6 Sabre, that’s it.

          • Hippesthippo April 10, 2013 6:47 pm
            #

            I was at one of them. Outside of IG/Contemptors/Hyperios, and two armies with Tetra’s, all I saw was a single Eldar army with some FW. I don’t believe it helped him much.

            I was at the bao early both days with plenty of time to go up and down the aisles.

            If anybody else that was there saw something I missed, I’d love to hear about it. Doesn’t bother me either way, FW or not, but lets not try to make it something it isn’t.

          • Reecius
            Reecius April 10, 2013 7:25 pm
            #

            My point was that you can’t make a statement that all of any group is doing something for one reason. Absolute statements are almost always wrong. Semantics, but it is an important distinction.

          • Hippesthippo April 11, 2013 2:02 am
            #

            Ok, all but one.

  11. Chris Michaels April 10, 2013 9:34 am #

    Hey Reecius and crew, thanks again for the tremendous support with our Kickstarter! As an update for everyone who attended BAO, we’re sending out the alpha kits to those who signed up on site, NEXT WEEK! We’re just waiting on one vendor to get everything out the door – but we have the tracking info and will be sending everything out the door shortly!

    For anyone who didn’t sign up for the alpha, or if you want to get a few kits at a deep discount, check out our Kickstarter at: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/79084871/modeling-leaves-the-dark-ages

    Thanks again all!

  12. Brendan April 10, 2013 10:28 am #

    I don’t know. To me FW seems to be a big player divide. The issue I always run into with allowing it is player familiarity and the fact that it pushes a giant advantage to players with more money. What I mean by that is if you are going to a FW tournament from an area that generally does not play with FW you are at a giant disadvantage (which to me if you are spending a bunch of money is a reason not to do so). As for the money advantage what I mean there is that players generally spend money to build lists, with FW not being universal players need to essentially buy another list (say I paid for my Cron Air build, which I didn’t, but as an example.) If I go to a FW tourament I need another build if I want to compete plain and simple, which if I don’t have the money to build….

    Lastly, this whole idea that X list beats the FW guard army is not a good answer for FW inclusion. It is essentially saying the game is Rock, Paper, Scissors, so if you have Scissors, yay, you win, but god forbid you bring Rock. Not saying there are not elements of this in the game, but do we really need more? Also the idea that the answer is to assault this suggests that if I don’t run a build that out assaults this build, I need to run this build.

    The more I view 6th (and FW inclusion) I really wonder if Comp (Banned/restricted list for example) would make the game better on the whole.

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 10, 2013 2:42 pm #

      It’s not as big of a deal as the internet makes it seem. We have the data to back that up, too. Most players are for it, and there was a movement from negative to positive on Forgeworld after the BAO, which shows that exposure to it (as expected) shows folks it isn’t that big of a deal.

      • Brendan April 11, 2013 2:18 am #

        You see I am not sure as to the Validity of any FW data yet. Most players have not gone out and bought the uber broken FW stuff yet because it is not always allowed. So what you get is a tournament with a smattering of FW, and people say “Well that wasn’t too bad” Because they did not need to face it. Throw on top of that that your response rate was 50% (so 72ish people) which is a very small sample and included far more (looking at the graphs about 2/3rds or 48 people) people that wanted FW in the event already (which at a FW event is likely). Of the remaining 1/3 (24 people) about 25% (6 people) did not know or care going in. This group slightly shrunk, with no evidence provided to the public in which direciton, and the amount of change suggests about 1 person changed their mind about it. So the remaining people (appears to be about 18 people) who were against FW going in it appears that only maybe 3 or 4 changed their mind (you quote 40% in your article, which by your graph appears incorrect but I’ll go with it.)

        SO that means 7 people went from not liking it to liking it, You quote 1 as going the other way. But then you say all but 1 negative person stayed negative (very confusing.)

        Simply put the sample is far too small. What if out of the other half of your event people were unhappy with FW and did not respond? What if The people that changed to FW is ok did not play anyone with hardcore FW units, but more fluff units etc…

        The issue with collecting data is that any one event is too small a sample especially when respose rate is so low (and I understand 50% is not horrible, but it is not very high either.)

        What would really need to happen for FW data to be meaningful is wholesale inclusion for a number of events, attended both by people that wanted it and didn’t, and attended by people that tried to “break” the game using it. (How I feel about playing a guy with a Wraith seer in is Eldar army, is far different about how I would feel about playing the guy with Spammed Sabers, Hyperios Etc…)

        • SCP Yeeman April 11, 2013 7:54 am #

          I think Reece and crew are using the BAO and relaying their findings because that’s what they have to go off of right now. They haven’t ran 5 BAO’s with FW units. They haven’t ran a large number of tounrnaments with 100+ people in which FW was allowed. he is simply relaying the info that he has to the public and informing them of what some of the people said.

          I actually think everytime he mentioned it, he says something baout it only be a small sample size and only a fraction of the people who went to BAO responded.

          I think we will have your data you want by the end of the year as I believe 2-3 of the major, huge GTs are allowign FW and the 2-3 others are not. So we can see if Necron Airforce and Chaos Helldrakes reign supreme at non-FW events and if Sabre Platforms and IG artillery dominate the FW tourny scene.

          • Brendan April 11, 2013 9:05 am
            #

            Which is not the data I want. Really if you look at the above post:
            “It’s not as big of a deal as the internet makes it seem. We have the data to back that up, too. Most players are for it, and there was a movement from negative to positive on Forgeworld after the BAO, which shows that exposure to it (as expected) shows folks it isn’t that big of a deal.”

            So he in that post is saying I have data, that says that it is not a big deal.

            Saying Most players are for it. At an event that allows it, it stands to reason more people than not would be for it, if you are vehemently opposed to it, you don’t show up.

            I agree as more big events allow it more people will likely run more broken FW units. All I was saying is the the BAO data (to me) suggests nothing about what the true feeling/outcome of FW inclusion will be because it seemed to me very few people ran the broken units.

            Now it the argument is that, not many people will. I would need to see that over a long time, and proof that those that bring them don’t consistently win. As for Cron/Heldrake spam I have not seen them reign supreme at events without FW yet, so I see no reason that they will definitely do so.

            In reality you would need 100% response rate from every one of those 2-3 gts over the next 2-3 years to have a good sample size (in reality though even that will not be enough, you would need a poll asking people not attending why they chose not to go… to see the real impact of FW.)

            Which in reality won’t happen, so claiming to have data that supports one side or another will always be inconclusive.

            But there is no reason every tournament should use FW, nor is their any reason every tournament should ban it. If you like using it, use it, and those that want to use it will come. If you don’t, don’t and those that don’t like it will come.

    • jy2
      jy2 April 10, 2013 3:02 pm #

      Welcome to 6th Edition. Perhaps we should call it the Rock-Paper-Scissors-40K edition. With allies and now FW, there are literally thousands and thousands of combinations that can hurt you. Likewise, there are also thousands and thousands of counters that can hurt those combinations as well. Sorry, but that is how 40K has turned out. There is a lot more variety in gameplay nowadays. There are also a lot more mismatches as well. Even the most balanced of TAC (Take-All-Comer’s) lists will have certain opponents that they would not want to face. That’s just the way it is now and people need to start getting used to it, especially in competitive tournament play.

      • Brendan April 11, 2013 2:20 am #

        I agree to an extent, my point was why add to the RPS nature of the game with FW. As others have said my largest issue is that it balances the game greatly in imperial favor (which is not true in 6th ed without FW.) A study I would like to see is how many Imperial units FW creates Vs, Xenos units and of those units how many are actually good. Furthermore I think the allies thing is part of the Problem with FW. Now that every imperial army can include IG, you will see more of it than you would otherwise.

        • SCP Yeeman April 11, 2013 7:50 am #

          “Good” is a subjective term. What you think is “good” may not be what I think is “good.” People’s opinions differ all the time. Look at this thread for example. You have some people sayign they don’t care if FW is allowed. Others say you need FW to balance the game. Others say FW creates chaos in 40k.

          Everybody has their own opinion with FW and when it comes down to it, if you know an event is allowing FW you can expect to see some units. (Contemptors, Sabres, Hyperios, IG Artillery) Plan ahead and adjust your list accordingly. Some people go in, knowing about FW, then leave and complain FW was there. That’s just stupid. If your against FW at events, just don’t go. Don’t go to the event and then complain about it being there like the TOs just popped up and said, “Hey guys I’d like to make an announcement. FW will be allowed at the event now.” You know ahead of time, FAR in advance.

          • Brendan April 11, 2013 8:54 am
            #

            Which I don’t have a problem with, and so far have not attended (though more because the East Coast does not run FW moreso than the FW as at an event), and I would not want to have to spend money to change my list to attend an already expensive event, so if I felt Sabers etc, were going to be commonplace, and also that they would bone my list (I don’t think they would) I would choose not to attend. My issue is the claim the FW balances the game (it doesn’t) or that 40k is already RPS so why not add FW, both of these are flawed arguments. Sure good is subjective, but so are all the opinions about how FW is great for the game. I fear that if FW becomes common place than most armies will be Marine Book + IG spam OP units. I am in favor of FW inclusion with limits etc. (Heck I would not be against limiting things like the Heldrake.)

  13. Warboss Dugg April 10, 2013 2:33 pm #

    Hi All,
    I just figured I would chime in here.

    My list is full of FW units and is all about Death Korp, so I’m running Artillery, Units with Meltas & Flamers and some air support w/ SW allies. That said it is not unbeatable, unless your name is Reece or Francis that is. 😉

    For the Broadside Bash they do pretty heavy Comp so I knew ahead of time that I would be placed vs other low comp players in the first 3 rounds and as long as I was doing well in the final 2 rounds as well. I am on the ZeroComp team after all so I made a ZeroComp list for this event. So with that said, I ended up beating on others players that had brutal lists and at no time did I play a noob player. The fact that I was the Bully of the Bullies is just how it turned out. I played vs the following: Sisters/GK, IG Sabre/Flayers, Demons/CSM, Draigo GKs and Bugs. Every list was a tough build with tools to beat my list.

    @Alan – I think you deployed wrong and your tactics were off vs my list. You can’t deepstrike piece meal vs my list and that is what you did. You had jump squads and Paladins so if I was you, I would have rushed me with everything, combat squading all of your squads and spreading them out to minimize my 4 large blast weapons would have been more ideal for you. Instead you turtled your paladins and Dreads in the opposite corner and deepstriked your combat squads right in front of me. This also let me bring on my flyers out of range of your Intercepting / skyfiring Dread that you got with that mission. I think if we played that mission again and you rushed me on a dawn a war deployment, which it was, I would have been very hard pressed.

    @Yeeman – YES! You beat me. DANG IT! A win is a win and I did make a few mistakes on my side but you also made 6 out of 7 flicker saves, Punch Saves, my 1st round of shooting which always helps. But like I have said over and over again, a win is a win and that’s 40k, and you are a very good Player so every little mistake or turn of the dice counts in those kinds of games. UNTIL NEXT TIME YEEMAN! 😉

    Like Reecius said, poison, Jaws and even barrage are my kryptonite so my list is far from unbeatable.

    *Sidenote- In all 5 of my games no one focused on my Command squad, all of which are just Tough3 to get rid of my “Get Back in the Fight” orders which I thought was a bit crazy. And about half of my games my opponents held back, out of the fight, some of their units for some reason. If you know I know which one of your units is the biggest threat(s) to my list I will be shooting at them every turn, why not rush your other units at me as well? I’m not going to waste shots on them while other scarier units are barreling down on me. Tactics play such a HUGE roll in 6th and I don’t think people understand it’s more than just a killer list these days, you need to know how to play vs other lists, and you can’t use the same tactics vs everyone and every codex.

    • SCP Yeeman April 10, 2013 2:47 pm #

      I was excited when I heard you might be coming up to Sacramento last month for our tournament we hold. i was let down though. Hopefully you can make it up here soon, i would love to give you that rematch! i promise I’ll take it easy on you, since I’ll have Homefield advantage afterall! 🙂

      • Warboss Dugg April 10, 2013 3:08 pm #

        I will be up that way in Aug. I will make sure and bring my Army. Are you sure you want to give me that rematch? Our last game was a close one, I would hate to crush your bragging rights. haha

  14. Jeremy April 10, 2013 6:50 pm #

    if I shell out money for a tourney, it will not be a FW tourney, that is for sure……

  15. Blackmoor April 10, 2013 7:13 pm #

    I was wondering how Yeeman beat you. I was thinking that Doug has a bad back, and it was the 7th game so he was tired and was making a lot of mistakes etc. So the secret to beating Doug’s army is to take the perfect counter to it and get incredibly lucky!

    As far as the tactic to beat you…I have the interceptors that can move fast and that is it. You have first turn so you can kill them with barrage weapons when you want to and then I have to walk forward with the rest of my army. I can shoot you after one turn, and I can assault you maybe after 3. In that time I will get chewed up so much that I should only have my paladins left to hold objectives (and that is Draigos squad. Lascannons can take out the other 5 paladins). You have many scoring units running around that I can’t hurt (they were in reserve) and a grey hunter squad that can take a couple of objectives for the win.

    What I wanted to do was deepstrike the paladins in front of you since they are much more durable, but I was worried about being tabled by the time they showed up.

    So my strategy was to hold 2 objectives with my paladins, and just go to ground in area terrain for a couple turns with my grey knights and I would contest and win. I did not realize that you can use the order that makes me re-roll cover saves on your artillery which made it really easy for you to kill them.

    Don’t worry Doug, I am going to come down to San Diego and see how you do without your FW, and see if you can beat me in a strait up fight.

    • Warboss Dugg April 10, 2013 8:24 pm #

      Oh yeah!… and yes the back was hurting something terrible by round 7 but that wasn’t it. Maybe a mistake or two was due to that but I will never use that as an excuse. It’s just part of what I have to deal with is all, and I chalk it up as just one of many distractions players have to deal with during these types of events.

      I will take a couple from Reecius book instead.

      Yeeman only won because the Sun was in my eyes and my shoes were untied. On a dark night with a cool but well lit room and some laceless slippers Yeeman wouldn’t stand a chance.

      • SCP Yeeman April 11, 2013 8:02 am #

        If there’s cookies and milk involved, i definately would be too distracted! That wouldn’t be a fair fight!

        • SCP Yeeman April 11, 2013 9:45 am #

          @ Dugg

          Wasn’t sure how else to contact you because I have no email. But I did amend that post you wrote.

          I did not know you at the time, and how I took what you said was wrong. So I apologize, honestly I am over it and forgot I even wrote the post.

          I apologize and think that the 7 games, exhaustation, and disappointment of the game I had in Round 6 was probably still on my mind. But I do look forward to our next game.

    • SCP Yeeman April 11, 2013 8:08 am #

      And here I thought the tactic was to whine and complain about FW being at an event. Huh…

      I don’t know who’s back or knees weren’t hurting by game 7. I know mine were being 6’6 damn near 300lbs. And if someone has never had a good counter to a list or had some good luck during a game and had it turn the tide for them, then they haven’t played 40k enough.

  16. Warboss Dugg April 10, 2013 8:10 pm #

    @Blackmoor- I tell you what, you come down hear with your ZeroComp, what most would call cheesy or douchey, Draigo 2k list and I will let you play my ZeroComp FW Death Korp “HobbyKiller” list and I’ll play yours. I bet I will win! 😉 I’ll even buy you dinner if I don’t. Same list and same mission.

    I am also happy to play you with a no FW list if you come down, not a problem, but if that’s your request I will request no GKs for you. Bring your Eldar or another Army instead. I was serious about having you down here for a game or 2 some time. It is always fun playing outside of the uber competive tournament scene.

    @ Jy2 – just fyi, My FW DkoK list has played Fankies HarlieStar and curb stomped it. Let me say that again so Francis can hear “CURB STOMPED IT!!!! ” I get free drinks for a YEAR with that win.

    Cheers Francis!!! :p I tease him because I care….. And he cannot read so he will never see this. Hahaha

    • jy2
      jy2 April 10, 2013 11:10 pm #

      I have no doubt that you can beat Frankie’s Harliestar. He’s got 2 major weaknesses that a seer council doesn’t really have. The harliestar is slow as heck and can be sniped by barrage weapons. I think you’ll find the seer council to be quite a different beast, however. What they have is much better resiliency (evey model will have re-rollable 2+ cover or 3+/4++ saves if you remove their cover) and killer mobility….the type of mobility that is a static army’s worst nightmare.

      Your best chance of beating a dual-deathstar seer council/beastpack list is if you go first and he makes a mistake in his deployment. And don’t forget about Eldrad and his stupid redeploy shenanigans. Gosh…I just hate him with a passion. 😉

      BTW, we didn’t play at the BAO, but you’d probably beat my bugs. I can see my tyranids having trouble with your army.

  17. Blackmoor April 10, 2013 8:22 pm #

    Challenge accepted!

    I was about to say the same thing. Looser buys dinner, so I hope you take me to a nice place since you will be picking up the tab.

    • Warboss Dugg April 10, 2013 8:26 pm #

      If I’m taking you to a nice place you better dress up and by dress up I mean wear a nice Dress. Haha

      • Hippesthippo April 11, 2013 2:09 am #

        Does anybody watch Modern Family? “This is how it’s gonna go, I’m gonna take you out for a nice dinner…”

Leave a Reply