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 Post subject: Precision Shots
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:41 am 
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To keep the argument off of the home page an in a section it belongs in, I thought I'd bring it up here. The question is if the "Take Aim!" order requires a 6 to hit to activate the Precision Shot.

First up, the exact wording of the order:
Quote:
“The ordered unit must make a shooting attack. When resolving this shooting attack, all models in the ordered unit have the Precision Shot special rule.”


The ePub of the AM codex gives us the following definition of Precision Shots (Which is exactly the same as the BRB rules, except it excludes the first line which allows any characters to declare Precision Shots after getting a 6 to hit):

Quote:
“PRECISION SHOTS
Wounds from Precision Shots are allocated against a model (or models) of your choice in the target unit, as long as it is in range and line of sight of the firing model, rather than following the normal rules for Wound allocation. This means that Precision Shots can be allocated against enemies with specialist weaponry, or even characters!

A character that has a Precision Shot Wound allocated to it can still make a Look Out, Sir roll.

Note that Snap Shots and shots from weapons that scatter, or do not roll To Hit, can never be Precision Shots.”


Nothing in that requires a 6 to hit.

Some further argument that it doesn't require 6's to hit:
  • In the same codex, there is a Relic gun called the Emperor's Benediction, which has the Precision Shots rule, exactly like the order, which would be completely redundant if it required a 6 to to hit.
  • The Sniper rule in the 40k Rulebook specifically does require a 6 to hit.
  • The Advanced Targeting System in the Tau Codex specifically requires a 6 to hit.
  • Illic Nightspear's rule Sharpshot mentions that shots fired by this model are always Precision Shots (which would be silly because it would still require a 6 to-hit if the Precision Shots rule itself required the 6 to-hit).
  • The Precision Shots rule itself only states, "If any of your character's shots roll 6 To Hit, these are Precision Shots." then goes on to define what a Precision Shot does. It does not say that Precision Shots can only happen on a 6.

I really can't find a solid argument that is in favor of requiring the Take Aim! order to require a 6 to-hit, but I know that this order is going to cause some frowny faces on deathstar players.

Looking into the argument of the contrary, saying that the 6 To Hit allowance for characters, then reading the rule, "If any of your character's shots roll 6 To Hit, these are Precision Shots." would mean that only character models could benefit from the order... which would be redundant because they're already precision on a 6 to hit. Similarly, sniper rifles and advanced targeting systems would fail to work unless they are carried by a character, in which case they wouldn't require a 6.


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 Post subject: Re: Precision Shots
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:18 am 

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There is no arguement because everyone knows the rule and will follow the rule. You can play whoever you want in whatever format you want but when you pull this they will tell you "that's not how it works". This can be at a tournament and I can call the judge over who will promptly rule in my favor saying that the model gains precision shot. This can be in a causaul game with a friend who will tell you "well, I guess we are done then" and pack his shit up. This can be against a random stranger who will just decide not to play you again and then talk bad about you on the internet :P

We all know the rule, we all know how the rule is applied, we all know that this is 99.999% likely just a typo that is missing one line :P

Notice I say 99.999% cause you never fucking know with GW sometimes =x


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 Post subject: Re: Precision Shots
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:21 am 

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Also, I will check my AM Codex at home later this evening. Wonder if it is written differently there than the E-Book.


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 Post subject: Re: Precision Shots
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:32 am 
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Smurfalypse wrote:
Also, I will check my AM Codex at home later this evening. Wonder if it is written differently there than the E-Book.


That'll be interesting to know for sure, I still haven't picked up my print copy.

I thought GW would FAQ Grimoire + Precog and IC's joining Riptides, but we all know how that's been going! Until there is an FAQ, I think it works pretty plainly, despite what I actually want.


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 Post subject: Re: Precision Shots
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:24 am 

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Well, they created an IC Riptide who can join units so in a way they are saying "this is okay". I do not use the Grimoire even though I ally with Daemons just about every game I play, but I do play against it a ton and have found the Grimoire is a bit overrated in a way. I usually just focus the Prince that has it and drop him quick like.


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 Post subject: Re: Precision Shots
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:36 am 
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Smurfalypse wrote:
Well, they created an IC Riptide who can join units so in a way they are saying "this is okay". I do not use the Grimoire even though I ally with Daemons just about every game I play, but I do play against it a ton and have found the Grimoire is a bit overrated in a way. I usually just focus the Prince that has it and drop him quick like.


Yeah, honestly the only part of me that really hopes that it doesn't get changed to 6's is the part of me that wants to see IG make the 2++ stars less reliable. Other than that, my chaos lord and sorcerers are scared shitless. It'll be interesting for guard to have to make sure to not over/under allocate wounds on models when they do this though, since allocated wounds are wasted when the model dies, and I don't think you can allocate on "normal squad members" but have to allocate to specific models intead. As usual, I stumble upon rules when I find out that they hurt me more than help me, like when I shot down my own plans for double flamer overwatching crisis suits, which then spread to my friends dakka flyrants.

Pretty much how I feel for expressing an unpopular concept...
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 Post subject: Re: Precision Shots
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:52 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:50 am
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lol true enough homie, true enough :OP


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 Post subject: Re: Precision Shots
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:55 pm 

Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:34 pm
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That quote from precision shot is only in the e book. It's not in the I book version or print copy. The problem with waiting for an FAQ is it may never come. It's a damn shame about the digital editions facebook going down because this is something that would have been answers promptly. I understand your argument Dice, but I just don't think RAI was for a guard unit to match pathfinders, Illic, Tellion, etc in there marksmanship.


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 Post subject: Re: Precision Shots
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:59 pm 
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japatoes wrote:
That quote from precision shot is only in the e book. It's not in the I book version or print copy. The problem with waiting for an FAQ is it may never come. It's a damn shame about the digital editions facebook going down because this is something that would have been answers promptly. I understand your argument Dice, but I just don't think RAI was for a guard unit to match pathfinders, Illic, Tellion, etc in there marksmanship.


I agree that there is totally room to consider that they may have meant that they need 6's to hit, but the problem is that in every other codex and in the rulebook too, when they have Precision Shots go off on a certain dice roll they say it, and when it doesn't, the model just gets "precision shots." So to say it's RAI one way or the other is just an assumption.

The biggest problem with RAI is where do you stop? I sincerely doubt that they intended the presence of drones to allow buffmanders to join riptides (even read the riptide entry, they TAKE drones, the same wording they use for wargear, in every codex when you can add to the unit, they say that the unit may INCLUDE the additional models). I also doubt it was the intention of the game designers to allow precognition to stack with Grimoire, nor did they intend for the Baron to make a cameo every time any Eldar craftworld goes to war with some warlocks on jetbikes... I'd absolutely love for GW to fix these, and even Reece with his latest round of comp-hammer been afraid to really fix it (but he's intent on nerfing Helbrutes, plus banning it might make people not sign up for his tournaments, which costs him money). 2++ re-rolling to 4+ helps a little, but in actuality does very little to stop these lists from dominating (they still beat everyones ass at the LVO).

Since it's impossible to assume the intentions of the designer, it's always the safest route to play exactly as the rules are written, which unfortunately means that guard are the best snipers in the galaxy until FAQ'd otherwise.


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 Post subject: Re: Precision Shots
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:52 pm 

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This is what the AM Codex says. "Take Aim! The ordered unit must make a shooting attack. When resolving this shooting attack, all models in the ordered unit have the Precision Shot special rule."

So you would follow the precision shot rule from the BRB. Really not an issue, thank god lol


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 Post subject: Re: Precision Shots
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:16 pm 
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First off I want to start this post by saying that I see both arguments. I have always been vocal in the idea that RAW is generally the best course when deciding these things, as it is the least subjective and most "fact based".
 
That being said, I believe there are always times when common sense must be reached by the members of the community being affected. By this I mean every group. Two players playing in their basement will come up with rules interpretations and decide how questions like this one should be answered. The same goes for a group of casual gamers, or a group or league starting up in a FLGS. A tourney circuit, since they are not "official" GW tournaments, all use their own versions of what could be called a "home brew FAQ."
 
It is impossible to go 100% by the rules in this game we play, we all know that. They simply are not comprehensive enough, especially given the poor quality and slowness to print new "official" FAQs, to cover every single instance and be worded so properly as to leave no question to the intent.
 
I fully agree that, according to strict RAW, every guardsman would be able to allocate their wounds when given this order.
 
Also according to strict RAW, Techmarine Gunners that come with the Thunderfire Cannon would not receive a bonus to their Blessing rolls when using Iron Hands Chapter Tactics, as the entry for Machine Empathy only says the bonus applies to Techmarines and MOTF, not Techmarine Gunners, which is what the model is named in it's entry under the Thunderfire Cannon.
 
And, unless it has been updated in the iVersion of the BRB, in my Dark Vengeance rulebook under the special rules for Monstrous Creatures, it lists their special rules. One of these rules is "Relentless Smash" (quite obviously just missing the comma between 'Relentless' and 'Smash'). The problem is, by saying that it's just a missing comma, you are going into RAI territory. If going strictly RAW, Monstrous Creatures would have neither the Relentless or Smash USR, but would have a rule called "Relentless Smash" which has no entry under USRs. I'm sure all the 2+ save models fighting Daemon Princes would be happy to hear that they don't have to fear AP2 due to Smash.
 
Simply put: everybody playing 40k in ANY setting uses some form of FAQ/errata. If we are entering a social contract to play this game with other people, whether it be in a basement with beers or at a GT, as long as the FAQ/errata is known and agreed upon beforehand by all involved, then it is the responsibility of the players to decide how to play this game.
 
 
TL;DR - Neither RAI or RAW can always be right


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 Post subject: Re: Precision Shots
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:35 pm 
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DankRobber wrote:
TL;DR - Neither RAI or RAW can always be right


Totally true, so why do we agree that we'll play RAW which allows Grimoire + Precog stack, or allow IC's to join Riptides, but don't agree to play RAW for this?


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 Post subject: Re: Precision Shots
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:36 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:50 am
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DankRobber wrote:
First off I want to start this post by saying that I see both arguments. I have always been vocal in the idea that RAW is generally the best course when deciding these things, as it is the least subjective and most "fact based".
 
That being said, I believe there are always times when common sense must be reached by the members of the community being affected. By this I mean every group. Two players playing in their basement will come up with rules interpretations and decide how questions like this one should be answered. The same goes for a group of casual gamers, or a group or league starting up in a FLGS. A tourney circuit, since they are not "official" GW tournaments, all use their own versions of what could be called a "home brew FAQ."
 
It is impossible to go 100% by the rules in this game we play, we all know that. They simply are not comprehensive enough, especially given the poor quality and slowness to print new "official" FAQs, to cover every single instance and be worded so properly as to leave no question to the intent.
 
I fully agree that, according to strict RAW, every guardsman would be able to allocate their wounds when given this order.
 
Also according to strict RAW, Techmarine Gunners that come with the Thunderfire Cannon would not receive a bonus to their Blessing rolls when using Iron Hands Chapter Tactics, as the entry for Machine Empathy only says the bonus applies to Techmarines and MOTF, not Techmarine Gunners, which is what the model is named in it's entry under the Thunderfire Cannon.
 
And, unless it has been updated in the iVersion of the BRB, in my Dark Vengeance rulebook under the special rules for Monstrous Creatures, it lists their special rules. One of these rules is "Relentless Smash" (quite obviously just missing the comma between 'Relentless' and 'Smash'). The problem is, by saying that it's just a missing comma, you are going into RAI territory. If going strictly RAW, Monstrous Creatures would have neither the Relentless or Smash USR, but would have a rule called "Relentless Smash" which has no entry under USRs. I'm sure all the 2+ save models fighting Daemon Princes would be happy to hear that they don't have to fear AP2 due to Smash.
 
Simply put: everybody playing 40k in ANY setting uses some form of FAQ/errata. If we are entering a social contract to play this game with other people, whether it be in a basement with beers or at a GT, as long as the FAQ/errata is known and agreed upon beforehand by all involved, then it is the responsibility of the players to decide how to play this game.
 
 
TL;DR - Neither RAI or RAW can always be right


The Ebook version and the actual physical Codex read differently and the hard copy makes it pretty clear how it works.


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 Post subject: Re: Precision Shots
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:44 pm 
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I'm not making an arguement for or against. I am simply stating that neither way of deciding can always be right. It needs to be decided by each group, friendly or competitive.


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 Post subject: Re: Precision Shots
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:03 pm 
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I understand the RAW argument but this is an absurd ruling.

You're not an asshole either, Adam, but this is really reaching on the intent of the rule, IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: Precision Shots
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:17 pm 
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Reecius wrote:
I understand the RAW argument but this is an absurd ruling.

You're not an asshole either, Adam, but this is really reaching on the intent of the rule, IMO.


Aww thanks dude!

My biggest hurdle on deciphering RAI on this one is that they use the same rule twice in the book. One once an order which would seem to be extremely powerful, and once again on a weapon. If you use the 6's to hit ruling on the weapon then it makes the rule it has redundant, but if you go by RAW the order becomes extremely powerful. In the end it seems even more wrong to use two different definitions of the same rule in the same book, that really doesn't feel "intended" to me. :(


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 Post subject: Re: Precision Shots
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:28 am 

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Remember the counter to this is the fact that the hard copy of the Codex reads very differently then the ebook version. It sorta makes it clear how it works in the hard copy as well and most people would probably lean toward that understanding of the rule.


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 Post subject: Re: Precision Shots
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:51 am 
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First of all let me preface the statement I'm about to make with this: I'm not calling you a rules lawyer. I don't know you really. Maybe you are. Maybe you're not. So don't take this as a personal insult.

Now, onto my point. It's quite funny to me that essentially rules lawyers always want to quote RAW and what not, when in truth, they often bypass RAW in the process. Let's take the case of actual practice of criminal or civil law. Oftentimes there are cases where the law as written is vague and in these instances, judges, and lawyers will look at past cases to see a "precedent" that has been set.

The same rings true here. In just about every other available form of RAW where we see precision shots used, it is always a result of rolling a 6 to hit. Be it characters or snipers. In places where it requires better than a 6, this is written (check Belial for Dark Angels). So, if we look at precedent here, which is straight up RAW, the rule allows the unit to make a type of shot they wouldn't normally otherwise be able to make, which is a precision shot, which looking at every other instance of the rules use, requires a 6 to hit. By looking at the precedent set, we can see how to interpret this rule.


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 Post subject: Re: Precision Shots
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:39 pm 

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We all know we can trust all of GW digital products... especially when I get this profile for Rough Riders...

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I mean seriously... I want 7 to 8 attacks on my rough riders... just need to work on that initiative...


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 Post subject: Re: Precision Shots
PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:00 pm 
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Lol, those are Rough RIders I can get into! :lol:

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