GW Grognard: Don’t Taze(nerf) Me(knights), Bro(GW)!

Hey everyone! Adam, from TFG Radio, here for another lesson in life (or something close to it…maybe)

I could use these as Knights, right?

Well, I got back from the Nova Open earlier this week. It was my first time attending and I must say that I had a blast. It was fun, I got to meet a lot of new people, see some old friends, and meet a lot of fans of both the podcast and this article. I appreciate all of you and hope you keep on listening and reading, because reading fundamental.

As many may have noticed, there were a fair number of Imperial Knights in people’s armies. n the 40K Invitational alone, there were about 12 armies, out of 32 with knight. I couldn’t count how many armies had knights in the Open GT, mainly because I was too busy playing my own knight army in the tournament. We even had two knights square off in the finals of the Open, and a knight army won the Invitational. So knights were everywhere. You were literally tripping over knights in the tournament area all weekend. I think Games Workshop hit their goals on the sales of the Imperial Knights. That being said, hopefully GW doesn’t over react to the love players have for their knights and make adjustments to the knights. They are perfectly fine as they are.

They’re so cute!

Now I do admit that there are a couple time where a knight might get lucky with a couple rolls here and there. The Castellan has sniped important characters in my opponent’s army and caused “feel bads”. He has also, singlehandedly, won me a game by killing multiple units with his guns and stomping on the poor bloody infantry in close combat. There may have been a time or two, during a game, where my knight exploded and, as a result, ended up killing about 7 units. Three or four of those units being characters.  It may have happened where I actually ended with almost the same number of command points I started the game with, due to my Astra Militarum contingent. I also can neither confirm or deny that there was more than one instance of a Blood Angel Captain was seen on the tabletop rampaging in my opponent’s backfield, all the while making 3+ invulnerable saves.

All of these cases hardly ever happen* in tournaments. It is the tactical knowledge of the player that is giving the knights their time in the spotlight**. Their stratagem are not overpowered at all and are accurately priced. From the one that lets you target characters, to the stratagem that allows a knight to rise from the dead, all of them are well within a reasonable price. If anything, it is the fault of their allies the Astra Militarum. Their abundance resource farm from the nearby planet, CP1000, is what allows the knights to do their thing. So, if anything, Games Workshop should look in that direction and leave the poor, downtrodden Imperial Knights alone. Oh, and nerf Eldar, just because.

That’s all for this week, I hope you enjoyed the read. Let me know your thoughts, and if you want to tell me why knights shouldn’t be nerfed, in the comments section. Don’t forget to visit our Facebook, Twitch, and Patreon pages to stay up to date on what we’re up to and when episodes drop!

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secondhandhsop

* Happens all the time

** I was almost able to write that whole sentence without laughing

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About Adam

Adam, aka Latin Gandalf, has been gaming since the early eighties and has played 40K since Rogue Trader (among a number of other games). He listens to more podcasts than any healthy person should and is currently the host for TFG Radio. He also is one of the head judges for LVO and other major 40K Grand Tournaments.

42 Responses to “GW Grognard: Don’t Taze(nerf) Me(knights), Bro(GW)!”

  1. Kevin Lantz September 8, 2018 12:19 am #

    CP abuse farm and multiple similar stratagems being used should all be nerfed. I shouldn’t ever play against an army with 8 relics while I’m limited to 3 tops.

    • AJShadowhawk September 8, 2018 1:10 am #

      Which army have you faced that uses 8 relics?

      • Kevin Lantz September 8, 2018 5:09 am #

        CP battery with knights and smash captain.

        • ryan September 8, 2018 6:33 am #

          can u name them please, this seems made up.

        • Ryan Gillies September 8, 2018 6:34 am #

          can u list the 8 relic lists you have fought

          • Kevin Lantz September 8, 2018 9:50 pm
            #

            My second round in the BAO, I can’t remember the players name, but he assured me it was on the up and up, and spending valuable time looking over your opponents list and reference books isn’t the time to do that.

        • AJShadowhawk September 8, 2018 7:38 am #

          Care to share any lists? Because I don’t recall seeing any lists that take more than 3 if that.

          • Wigglefish September 8, 2018 8:41 am
            #

            The most you can have is 7. 1 free one, then buy two for each faction for 9CP. 4 is more typical though. The 4++ on the knight, the jump pack and CP regen on the BA, and the CP regen on the guard Commander.

          • Yakhunter September 8, 2018 1:25 pm
            #

            Actually, there is a version of the Knight/BA/AM list that runs 7.

            Kurov’s, Mask of Ollanius the Pius on the Ogryn Bodyguard,Angel’s Wing and Veritas Vitae on smash captains, Cawl’s Wrath and 2+ armor or Gatling Gun on knights.

          • Yakhunter September 8, 2018 1:29 pm
            #

            And the 4++ for the Knight is a warlord trait. Cawl’s Wrath and Armor of the Sainted Ion are the two popular Knight relics.

  2. Cryptix September 8, 2018 2:54 am #

    All CP generated can only be used by detachments that share a deeper keyword then Imperium, Chaos, or Aeldari. There, I fixed Guard CP farm, while still keeping the Tallyman and other similar abilities working.

  3. CWDub September 8, 2018 5:26 am #

    I don’t think Knights need to be “nerfed” and agree with the premise of the article (CP Batteries are the problem) but I do think the Gallant and Castellan could use a small points hike. This shouldn’t be anywhere near extreme enough to cripple knight primary armies (they’re good for the game) but the Loyal 32 + Castellan + BA Caps is just too good.

    IMO you should be able to take a Dominus/Castellan and 4 other Knights in a list, so the points hike shouldn’t be that extreme. Maybe 20ish pts on the Gallant and 30-40 on the Castellan. And the House Raven “Order of Companions” strat might need to work in a similar fashion as Rotate Ion Shields (costing more CP on a Castellan vs another Knight).

    The problem isn’t Knight primary armies, it’s Knight Allies with extra WL traits and extra relics and regenning CPs. IMO, limit CP regeneration to 1 attempt per player turn and all CP regen mechanics should work like the DG Tallyman — I think it’s curious DG were one of the first codices and their CP regen mechanic explicitly states he can only regen CPs for DG strategems. No idea why that went away.

    I’m also leaning towards relics should only be allowed from your warlord’s faction. Who cares if you’re paying CPs for Relics for your Slam Caps and Castellan when you’re going to end the game with 7-10 CPs anyway due to regen?

  4. NinetyNineNo September 8, 2018 8:29 am #

    I’ll admit, I was ready to come to the comments and argue before I read the article. Fell for the bait.

    • Adam September 11, 2018 7:47 am #

      lol, not all the articles are super cereal. 😉

  5. Wigglefish September 8, 2018 8:56 am #

    I think it’s clear the unlimited CP is the largest offender right now.

    To me, the next largest issue is that rotate ion shields is too good in combination with the 4++ relic, especially when you can just take one knight and reap most of the benefits.

    If that was fixed we’d be able to see a bit better if the knights themselves are actually too good, and be in less danger if just nerfing them into the ground.

    • Kami September 10, 2018 5:14 pm #

      I just think invuln saves are too good across the board. it really tells you whether a unit is worth taking or not. poor leman russ just die. and knights and captains get 3++

      id rather drop points on some things and make invulns capped at 4+

  6. magnisprime September 8, 2018 9:19 am #

    The thing is that guard without the knights and BA, even with a ton of CP aren’t overpowered by any stretch. So nerfing something good of theirs without giving anything back is laaaame-o. So, CP regents only working when used on a stratagem from the same book makes a lot of sense to me.

  7. CallofDo0bie September 8, 2018 10:55 am #

    Fun Fact: A Gallant hits harder than Magnus does, is tougher, more wounds, can have the same invuln, and is almost 100 pts less….

    I’m not angry at you GW, just dissapointed -_-

    • Lysere September 8, 2018 12:23 pm #

      Well it doesn’t have that invuln in close combat unless you take a relic, and even then it caps at 4++ with the strat, he doesn’t have any psychic powers and Magnus can single handedly shut down the invuln and then tear it to pieces with attacks to spare. Also Magnus can make himself harder to hit and buff Death to the false emperor with his powers on top of natural re-rolls, excessively high strength, and fly.

      I know this because I fight Magnus regularly.

      Although I do agree the Gallant is very solid so could probably still use a slight point hike.

  8. Ujayim September 8, 2018 1:11 pm #

    Knights are fine. Infinite CP is busted.

  9. CallofDo0bie September 8, 2018 10:52 pm #

    Those are fair points that ill admit I left out in my lamenting, however I will point out that unless youre trying to make him a mortal wound cannon the bulk of his powers (usually 2/3 casts) are going into making him more durable or heal him. So that’s 2 powers being dedicated to making him ALMOST as durable. T7 with a 3++ and -1 to hit with 18 wounds vs T8 with a 4++, no hit modifiers, and 24 wounds is pretty close to even durability speaking. Magnus is much more vulnerable to bolter fire but the Knight has a better chance of getting chunked by a lascannon or something. Funny enough the Knight is actually more flexible of a combat unit because it can attack models in buildings with a strat, where as Magnus has to just hope he can smite them to death (which granted is still a solid option).

    My original point def still stands though, the Gallant is a little bit too cheap for what it can do.

  10. Rob Butcher September 9, 2018 6:13 am #

    Knight army ? Or knight in the army ? There is a significant difference, especially when the later has the CP farm and slam captains.

    And which army was Gonyo playing in the final ? It looked like one knight vs two Primarchs, not a knight on each side.

    And nowhere iod it say you had fun … that the reason that grown men play with toys.

  11. Brakhal September 9, 2018 7:18 am #

    In my opinion, knights are not fine, even in pure lists. You can wreck them fast with the right tools and some luck in the starting roll, or they can roll over you if you play one of a few unlucky factions. Both ways, to play against knight is not fun.

    I can see why playing knights is fun. They feel powerfull (not unbeatable, but powerful). But to play against them, while it can be refreshing in the first couple games, gives a poor experience fast.

    • Vaettra September 9, 2018 11:13 pm #

      Yeah Knights are not ok. They are un-fun crutches to play against, and deserves to be nerfed Flyrant/Biovore-style.
      They have a few OP stratagems too.

      /salty Tyranid player

      • abusepuppy September 11, 2018 4:12 am #

        You know, Tyranids actually have a really good way to deal with Knights: ignore them. One Knight can’t kill off the ~150 Termagants (or Hormagaunts) that it costs before the game ends, and if you simply swarm the objectives and hold the table they will lose the game pretty handily.

        Winning isn’t always about killing.

        • Brakhal September 11, 2018 5:25 am #

          It depends on the duration of the game. One knight can’t kill 150 gants in 3 turns, but some of them can do it easily in 6 turns.

          And anyway, playing the “survival mode” vs iks can be fun a couple times, but it becomes frustrating the third time, and the powerless feeling gets worse game after game. It’s not just about winning, is about the experience.

          • abusepuppy September 11, 2018 6:56 am
            #

            I mean, I can’t really dictate your experience to you, but if you’re controlling the enemy’s movement phase and victory points so heavily that you’re winning games, I guess I find it odd that you would think that so unsatisfying. But again, not my call to make, I suppose.

            Game duration will typically be irrelevant, at least in ITC missions; you should easily outscore them (hold more, bonus point) most turns and pull ahead rapidly on secondaries as well. Knights bleed points pretty heavily and are generally bad at scoring secondaries themselves due to limited ability to split firepower.

            (Incidentally, a Knight Warden, arguably the best at the job, will kill ~9 Gaunts per shooting phase of its controlling player and another ~14 between the two assault phases each round. That’s a total of 23 per turn, or 138 over the course of a game, assuming that it never “wastes” any due to overkilling partial units. A Knight Castellan with the Raven stratagem up every turn will kill ~20 with shooting on its own turn and ~10 with melee on its own and the enemy turn, getting 180 of them by the end of the game- but again, that’s assuming no overkill ever, and spending 12CP to do so.)

          • Brakhal September 11, 2018 8:57 am
            #

            ¿Controlling the game? It doesn’t feel like that. When you play ‘nids vs 3+ knights is more about avoiding contact with them, hiding your characters, and keeping the objectives through sacrifice, while you focus on the non-LoW part of the list, to score at least some kill every turn.

            First time, interesting.
            Second time, challenging.
            Third time, annoying.

        • Reecius
          Reecius September 11, 2018 6:14 am #

          I totally agree. The only downside I’ve found is that the big bugs are often at the mercy of Knights as they lack adequate defense against them barring simply hiding.

          • Brakhal September 11, 2018 6:47 am
            #

            Big bugs, and a lot in the mid range. Warriors were almost decent, before the arrival of iks. They die at gaunt speed whenever there’s a low in the table.

            It was good to take them out of the shelf for a few months tho. I hope they get some love in this chapter.

          • Reecius
            Reecius September 11, 2018 6:50 am
            #

            I still play my 9 Warrior unit coming from deepstrike but yeah, lol, Cawl’s Wrath is not their favorite thing in the world, haha.

          • Brakhal September 11, 2018 7:45 am
            #

            They would be fine with a minor point decrease, let’s say 3 points per model (from basic 20 to 17). Otherwise, they will need a little damage output, survivability or speed, but I think just the cost change would do it.

    • Kami September 10, 2018 5:17 pm #

      Welcome to playing against magnus/mortarion

  12. ChrisA September 9, 2018 8:28 pm #

    In the update, I hope they nerf them and you have to get new models.

  13. N.I.B. September 9, 2018 11:03 pm #

    Knights are un-fun crutches to play against and they deserve to be nerfed in knee-jerk fashion, similar to Flyrants and Biovores.
    They have some OP stratagems too.

    / salty Tyranid player

    • KingAceNumber1 September 10, 2018 6:51 am #

      Did you comment here under two different names just to say the same thing twice?

      • WestRider September 10, 2018 8:55 am #

        I feel it’s more likely the sporadic bug that happens around here where people sometimes randomly have their comments posted as someone else.

  14. Sean September 10, 2018 1:41 pm #

    I vote go something similar to the AoS route: Only one allied detachment from a second codex and limit it to 500 points, no faction benefits. Makes it a lot easier for GW to balance the books when they don’t have to think about all the crazy interactions and we can go back to actually having nice themed armies.

    • abusepuppy September 11, 2018 6:58 am #

      Or just dump allies entirely. I know they’re thematic and all, but 500pts is enough to slot a 3++ Knight into your Guard army or a full Blood Angels Smash Captain detachment into anything else.

      • Ujayim September 11, 2018 7:24 am #

        While it may be better game design, I don’t see GW ever saying goodbye to the cash flow that im sure allies bring along with them.

      • Adam September 11, 2018 7:49 am #

        They could go the AoS route and limit it to about 400 points for allies, and they can not gain any stratagem boosts during the game

      • Sean September 11, 2018 8:46 am #

        I support no allies but I know some other people wouldn’t. And some factions like Ynnari which require allies would become even more abuseable. That’s why I think limiting it to one ally, so that Guard player can bring either a Knight OR a detachment of Marines would be manageable. And allies have no stratagems, relics, warlord traits or chapter tactics. Every one can still play with their toys, but your not allowed to high grade out of three books and share CP.

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