Signals from the Frontline #577: Chaos Daemons Chat

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Show Notes

Date: 1-10-17

Intro

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News

  • GW announced some of the new Codexes and Battletomes coming out for 40k!

  • You can mark your calendar for the SoCal Open, which will be October 27th-28th, 2018! We’re very excited to see how much this event grows in 2018 as 2017 went great and was loads of fun.
  • The Las Vegas Open is nearly upon us! Wow, only two weeks and change away. The 40k Friendly sold out again, and after we processed refunds at the deadline last month, we’ve got a few tickets left for the Champs to get back up to that 512 limit. So, if you were looking for a ticket, you can still grab one! Shadespire has been blowing up here coming down the home stretch and AoS is in to triple digits so that is very exciting to see how the AoS ITC season will wrap up!
    • If you can’t make it, you can watch the event either on Warhammer TV or on FrontlineGaming_TV.
    • Make sure to bring chap-stick to the event, it gets really dry there. Possibly lotion, too.
    • Bring some spending cash as there are tons of awesome vendors with great deals to be had.
    • Bring your party pants because this is going to be a lot of fun!

Upcoming ITC Events

40k ITC Rankings

Rank First Name Last Name Points Events
1 Tony Grippando 714.27 5 of 5
2 Andrew Gonyo 683.32 5 of 5
3 Nick Nanavati 680.73 5 of 5
4 Brandon Grant 677.44 5 of 5
5 Aaron Aleong 664.7 5 of 5
6 Matt Root 644.93 5 of 5
7 Tyler DeVries 627.8 5 of 5
8 Sam Henley 625.73 5 of 5
9 David Johansen 617.69 5 of 5
10 Trent Northington 615.46 5 of 5

AoS ITC Rankings

Rank First Name Last Name Points Events
1 James Thomas 463.43 4 of 5
2 Joe Krier 456.4 4 of 5
3 Vlad Nica 443.7 4 of 5
4 Samuel Valdez 442.32 4 of 5
5 Zach Lopez 422.06 4 of 5
6 Jarrett Zazuetta 411.91 4 of 5
7 Alexander Gonzalez 393.45 4 of 5
8 Michael Burch 384.01 4 of 5
9 James Sutton 383.88 4 of 5
10 DAVID ROGERS 378.08 4 of 5

Upcoming 40k ITC Events

Upcoming AoS ITC Events

Tactics Corner

  • Chaos Daemons talk.
    • The gang discusses the new Daemon Codex and what it means for matched play!

Completed Commissions

  • Check out this beautiful Knight commission we recently completed. Consider the FLG Paint Studio for your next commission.

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About Reecius

The fearless leader of the intrepid group of gamers gone retailers at Frontline Gaming!

33 Responses to “Signals from the Frontline #577: Chaos Daemons Chat”

  1. rvd1ofakind January 10, 2018 10:51 am #

    So is it just me or are the comments borked. Now every time I post something, I see it quite a bit later. Moderating all (or only my lol) comments? Or is it just a bug

    • RauPow January 10, 2018 3:33 pm #

      Bug. Sometimes I notice a delay as well.

  2. Icoop January 10, 2018 11:02 am #

    There’s definitely still foam on the wire, if no the contacts.

    • Reecius
      Reecius January 10, 2018 12:09 pm #

      Probably is, we were just being stupid, haha

  3. iNcontroL January 10, 2018 11:34 am #

    beautiful knight!

    • Ujayim January 10, 2018 11:41 am #

      Seconding that. You guys really have an impressive paint studio.

  4. rvd1ofakind January 10, 2018 10:50 pm #

    Silly things in the episode:

    “Flamers are great now”
    Yeah, but Pink Horrors are better and a TON more durable.

    “2CP Nurgle heal stratagem is great”
    NOOOOOOOOPE. I’ll never use it. 2 CP to heal D3 or restore 1 model with 1 wound if they are all healthy? Ugh… The Nurgle Psypower does the same thing for free. And with how CP starved daemons are already…

    “Bloodcrushers can deepstrike, so they’re fine”
    Ok, tell me why should I use them instead of bloodletters when bloodletters do DOUBLE the damage per point to tiny dudes and QUADRUPLE the damage on big dudes. Ouch.
    AND bloodletters are more survivable against any weapon AND 4-6 times more survivable against anti-tank.
    So what do Bloodcrushers have? They make better paperweights

    “Slaanesh are really fast”
    What does that matter if you’re either:
    standing in the deployment zone(shooting units or brimstones)
    deepstriking(bloodletters, pinks)
    running arround for objectives – nurglings, plaguebearers(just as fast as daemonettes with certain buffs) who are way more durable than daemonettes. If you wanna go faster just take hounds or screamers as they are more points efficient than slaanesh alternatives
    Slaanesh are just outclassed by: Khorne for damage, Nurgle for footslog. They might have something with the “turn off bobby with the artifact” or “character duels” or “-1 attack”, however those are way too situational to use. If they meet a shooting army like IG – they’re screwed.

    • Laurence January 11, 2018 6:46 am #

      Lol…so angry…so so angry…

      • rvd1ofakind January 11, 2018 8:06 am #

        Not really. I’m just calling out stuff when I see it

        • Dbiesto January 11, 2018 1:06 pm #

          Im a bit disappointed in Slaanesh as well. This time rvd is stating a valid point. You have to blob up and deepstrike in slaanesh units, but Nurgle has resilience and khorne has an almost guranteed charge. They have ok armor penetration with a ton of attacks and the fiends of slaanesh are the only thing besides skarbrand to stop units from falling back.

          Hellblades dealing 2 damage per 6+ to wound combined with mask of slaanesh +1 to hit against a unit within 1” of it means 1+ to hit while the squad is in a unit of 20+. Daemoettes are made to clear hordes, nurgle is meant to sit on and take over objectives, bloodleters are close combat anti armor tank hunters.

          Everyone has a valid opinion, and everyone has the right to disagree. Chaos Daemons will be more of a finnesse army as each move and fight phase will matter. They are starting to look look a top army again, especially with chaos soups.

    • WrentheFaceless January 11, 2018 8:17 am #

      Dude, you need to take a step away from 40k, you’re angry at everything in every article FLG posts

      • rvd1ofakind January 11, 2018 8:44 am #

        Trust me, I ain’t mad. I’m just disappointed. :p

        Plus I kinda like complaining.

      • Ujayim January 12, 2018 9:32 am #

        He doesn’t understand. It’s how he posts everywhere.

    • Dan January 11, 2018 9:49 am #

      All valid points. Some counter points:

      The nurgle stratagem could be useful to regenerate a big model like a fly thingy, well it would be if that unit was ever worth using over more plaguebearers. For 1CP I would consider it, for 2 its too much.

      Flamers are good for summoning small units if you need some chaff clearing. So I think they have place, just not in the starting army. A big squad of horrors is more cost effective, but I can see cases where I’d take flamers. The burning chariot though is almost unusable compared to a herald on chariot or exalted flamer…

      I have nothing on the daemonettes and bloodcrushers though… well maybe morale is the only thing going for crushers… but no, I still think they’re pretty bad…

      • rvd1ofakind January 11, 2018 10:14 am #

        Well it regenerates the “fly thing” only on 1 wound. So that’s hardly worth it over D3 wounds.

        I think the current “fly things” are worth it. Nothing gamebreaking ofc but they’re good enough to warrant a spot, unlike bloodcrushers who are just irredeemable.

        Pink clears chaff better. Maybe flamers can be used to fight fliers as they autohit… But their gun is more antihorde.
        I have no idea where you’d take herald on chariot. Same spells, bad damage, higher price. Durability doesn’t matter as he’s a character.

    • Icoop January 11, 2018 1:40 pm #

      CSM have the Nurgle Heal Stratagem and it is actually decent. I’ve used it on Abbadon a few times when it mattered. I’m not sure how starved Daemons are, Frankie’s list from last week had 12 CP, which is about the most one can get unless they’re intentionally min/maxing for CP. I’d say in general about 80% of stratagems are situational this is no exception. Of the Cult powers, Endless Cocophony is the only one I use every game, and I almost expect a CP increase for it in the future.

    • abusepuppy January 12, 2018 11:23 pm #

      Flamers ignore hit penalties. Pink Horrors don’t. You’ll feel like a big boy with your block of Horrors throwing down 60 shots, until you realize you’re hitting on 6s against those Eldar and suddenly it’s not looking so good anymore.

      The Nurgle stratagem is expensive and won’t be used a lot, but it is good to have around. As others have pointed out, using it to restore a big model (Beast, Drone, Toad) to a unit can be huge. The psychic power doesn’t make it redundant because you can use both of them back-to-back in order to get double effect; stacking effects are more powerful on a multiplicative curve, not a linear one.

      Bloodcrushers are bad. No argument there.

      Daemonettes are fine and good (S4 with a Herald means they actually have a higher damage output than Bloodletters do against most targets), but the problem is Slaanesh doesn’t have many models beyond that. KoS is shit, Seekers are too fragile, Chariots are the wrong kind of target to hang with other things. Their psychic powers and artifacts are pretty good, though.

      • rvd1ofakind January 13, 2018 2:00 am #

        Close range to hit penalties are rare, therefor you should go pinks most of the time

        Nurgle stg: People mention that, but it restores a big model with 1 wound only. I’d rather restore D3 to a wounded model tbh.

        And I don’t know what you’re looking at but unless my calculations are off, when comparing Bloodletters to Daemonettes, daemonettes are up to two times worse against every target(least worse against chaff…

        • abusepuppy January 13, 2018 7:01 am #

          Close range to-hit penalties are pretty easy to get at -1. And you won’t always get to land where you want to, because people get to deploy units down to push out that 9″ bubble.

          If you use the stratagem to bring a big model back to 1 wound, you can then heal it with other effects (of which there are several.)

          Daemonettes are superior to Bloodletters anytime they aren’t charging, because 1 base attack isn’t exciting and getting to swing first is pretty good. They are roughly equivalent against Orks and other targets with 5+ or worse saves when charging, but worse against MEQs (albeit not by as much as people tend to think.) They have better support abilities (such as “fight twice”) and are faster on the ground (which matters quite a bit because enemies aren’t just gonna stand next to you and accepts being assaulted.)

          • rvd1ofakind January 13, 2018 9:21 am
            #

            Well flamers only have 12” range so they won’t reach those 12”+ -1 to hits anyway.

            I really doubt anyone will use the Nurgle one. It’s way too expensive compared to how CP hungry daemons are

            And when are bloodletters not charging/being charged/heroic interventioned really… At most it’s the oppoonents turn and then they either kill or be killed. And with how handidly they beat deamonettes with charge… Charge + not charge > 2x daemonettes. The fight first thing is very negligable in my experience.

  5. Don Tomaso January 11, 2018 10:53 am #

    Hehe, I know all about being disappointed at the flawed parts of 8th 😛

    Slightly OT but I would like Reeces take on the following idea:

    8th favor first turners to strongly, armies like nids and other charger heavy lists are slightly op unless you well..you basically HAVE to include a fodder bubble in your army in order to stay on par. This sucks for armies with no cheap fodder.

    My suggestion in the form of a simple rule change that I want feedback on is as following:

    What if any unit that wishes to charge the same turn they deepstruck must do so at an automatic -1 inch (or possibly -2) but only for the turn they DS?

    Treating deepstrikers as if they deepstrike opponents like if they were in a crater would ease the first turn advantage and also free up lots of the mandatory fodder bubbles in many lists.

    Feedback? What is bad, what is good? Will this ruin balance more then it helps?

    • rvd1ofakind January 11, 2018 11:09 am #

      Are close combat armies dominating the meta? Last I checked it was shooting armies…
      Astra Militarum
      Space Marines
      Chaos Space Marines (the least shooty of the 3 but still a lot more shooty than melee)
      These top 3 armies(results wise) are all shooty armies. Why do you want to nerf melee when it finally does something (tyranids, chaos daemons).

      The “screen” problem is there both for melee and shooting. With shooting you can’t even screen, you have to have scouts, so that’s even a bigger problem.

    • Reecius
      Reecius January 11, 2018 2:54 pm #

      The player going second wins more often in the ITC Champion’s Missions, FWIW.

      Maybe try them out if you find first turn to be too strong.

      • Don Tomaso January 11, 2018 7:11 pm #

        Will do. Sounds fun.

        We are only playing rulebook missions here, maelstrom mostly.

  6. Don Tomaso January 11, 2018 10:18 pm #

    “The player going first wins: 44% of the time.
    The Player going second wins: 56% of the time.”

    Is this because of the core rules/missions or specifically because ITC missions?

    • rvd1ofakind January 11, 2018 10:48 pm #

      ITC missions.

      As the game favors first player, the ITC missions balance it out by favoring the second player to balance it out.

      • Reecius
        Reecius January 12, 2018 9:54 am #

        Yeah. The player going second sees exactly what the player going first did in terms of how many kills they got, how many objectives they hold, and get the opportunity to counter.

        What we’ve found is that it is almost always best to go second in our missions unless you absolutely have to do something on the first turn.

        I am actually quite pleased with the ratio right now, it is close enough to make it seem so far that there is a balance between going first and second whereas in book missions the ratio is heavily skewed to first turn.

        • Dbiesto January 12, 2018 1:02 pm #

          Ya, that one mission with whoever has the relic wins is a horrible tournament match so glad you got rid of that. Especially now that any daemon unit can deepstrike in. 30 plaguebearers would be a nightmare to kill as they run away with all the buffs.

          • Reecius
            Reecius January 15, 2018 11:43 am
            #

            Exactly, lol. Or Celestine just flying away with it on turn 1….

  7. Benji January 12, 2018 4:29 pm #

    I think the emperor was probably aware of the deal Magnus made with tzeentch trading his eye to save his legion. If Magnus was shown the emperors plans to use the webway cutting off humanities reliance on psykers then tzeentch would have seen it too and found away to spoil his plan anyway.

    • Reecius
      Reecius January 15, 2018 11:43 am #

      Interesting theory…

  8. Nick Wenker January 15, 2018 12:40 pm #

    There are a lot of improvements in this book, which make the places where the codex stumbled all the more obvious.

    Broadly the codex mostly failed to fix issues with morale negation and CP regeneration, and it’s unfortunate that there aren’t more stratagems when some of the ones that were included again focused on the rarely-used summoning (really getting sick of these in all the Chaos codex, haha).

    More particularly, I think a lot of people are very disappointed by the many units that surprisingly didn’t get buffed more or even got nerfed (Bloodcrushers, Soulgrinders, Lords of Change, Furies, Beasts, Kairos, Be’lakor, etc.) and that the Tzeentch psychic powers are still so lackluster. I think a lot of people (me included) were also really disapointed to gear that the stratagems would likely be FAQ’d to prevent smart stratagem use on Chaos Space Marine units (keeping that ability would’ve further encouraged smart like with infiltrators and screens and discouraged alpha-strike shooting armies that just take a 400-500+ big unit off the table each shooting phase).

    Overall Daemons seems like a good codex that falls somewhere between middle-of-the-road codexes like Death Guard and AdMech and the slam-dunk, everything-is-great codexes like Eldar and Tyranids and Astra Militarum.

    If the first 2018 Chapter Approved improved / cut costs on a few more of the lackluster Daemon units to give them an additional kick in the pants, then I think this would become a fantastic codex despite the morale and CP issues.

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