Signals from the Frontline #577: Chaos Daemons Chat

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Show Notes

Date: 1-10-17


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Rank First Name Last Name Points Events
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Tactics Corner

  • Chaos Daemons talk.
    • The gang discusses the new Daemon Codex and what it means for matched play!

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About Reecius

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33 Responses to “Signals from the Frontline #577: Chaos Daemons Chat”

  1. Avatar
    rvd1ofakind January 10, 2018 10:51 am #

    So is it just me or are the comments borked. Now every time I post something, I see it quite a bit later. Moderating all (or only my lol) comments? Or is it just a bug

    • Avatar
      RauPow January 10, 2018 3:33 pm #

      Bug. Sometimes I notice a delay as well.

  2. Avatar
    Icoop January 10, 2018 11:02 am #

    There’s definitely still foam on the wire, if no the contacts.

    • Reecius
      Reecius January 10, 2018 12:09 pm #

      Probably is, we were just being stupid, haha

  3. Avatar
    iNcontroL January 10, 2018 11:34 am #

    beautiful knight!

    • Avatar
      Ujayim January 10, 2018 11:41 am #

      Seconding that. You guys really have an impressive paint studio.

  4. Avatar
    rvd1ofakind January 10, 2018 10:50 pm #

    Silly things in the episode:

    “Flamers are great now”
    Yeah, but Pink Horrors are better and a TON more durable.

    “2CP Nurgle heal stratagem is great”
    NOOOOOOOOPE. I’ll never use it. 2 CP to heal D3 or restore 1 model with 1 wound if they are all healthy? Ugh… The Nurgle Psypower does the same thing for free. And with how CP starved daemons are already…

    “Bloodcrushers can deepstrike, so they’re fine”
    Ok, tell me why should I use them instead of bloodletters when bloodletters do DOUBLE the damage per point to tiny dudes and QUADRUPLE the damage on big dudes. Ouch.
    AND bloodletters are more survivable against any weapon AND 4-6 times more survivable against anti-tank.
    So what do Bloodcrushers have? They make better paperweights

    “Slaanesh are really fast”
    What does that matter if you’re either:
    standing in the deployment zone(shooting units or brimstones)
    deepstriking(bloodletters, pinks)
    running arround for objectives – nurglings, plaguebearers(just as fast as daemonettes with certain buffs) who are way more durable than daemonettes. If you wanna go faster just take hounds or screamers as they are more points efficient than slaanesh alternatives
    Slaanesh are just outclassed by: Khorne for damage, Nurgle for footslog. They might have something with the “turn off bobby with the artifact” or “character duels” or “-1 attack”, however those are way too situational to use. If they meet a shooting army like IG – they’re screwed.

    • Avatar
      Laurence January 11, 2018 6:46 am #

      Lol…so angry…so so angry…

      • Avatar
        rvd1ofakind January 11, 2018 8:06 am #

        Not really. I’m just calling out stuff when I see it

        • Avatar
          Dbiesto January 11, 2018 1:06 pm #

          Im a bit disappointed in Slaanesh as well. This time rvd is stating a valid point. You have to blob up and deepstrike in slaanesh units, but Nurgle has resilience and khorne has an almost guranteed charge. They have ok armor penetration with a ton of attacks and the fiends of slaanesh are the only thing besides skarbrand to stop units from falling back.

          Hellblades dealing 2 damage per 6+ to wound combined with mask of slaanesh +1 to hit against a unit within 1” of it means 1+ to hit while the squad is in a unit of 20+. Daemoettes are made to clear hordes, nurgle is meant to sit on and take over objectives, bloodleters are close combat anti armor tank hunters.

          Everyone has a valid opinion, and everyone has the right to disagree. Chaos Daemons will be more of a finnesse army as each move and fight phase will matter. They are starting to look look a top army again, especially with chaos soups.

    • Avatar
      WrentheFaceless January 11, 2018 8:17 am #

      Dude, you need to take a step away from 40k, you’re angry at everything in every article FLG posts

      • Avatar
        rvd1ofakind January 11, 2018 8:44 am #

        Trust me, I ain’t mad. I’m just disappointed. :p

        Plus I kinda like complaining.

      • Avatar
        Ujayim January 12, 2018 9:32 am #

        He doesn’t understand. It’s how he posts everywhere.

    • Avatar
      Dan January 11, 2018 9:49 am #

      All valid points. Some counter points:

      The nurgle stratagem could be useful to regenerate a big model like a fly thingy, well it would be if that unit was ever worth using over more plaguebearers. For 1CP I would consider it, for 2 its too much.

      Flamers are good for summoning small units if you need some chaff clearing. So I think they have place, just not in the starting army. A big squad of horrors is more cost effective, but I can see cases where I’d take flamers. The burning chariot though is almost unusable compared to a herald on chariot or exalted flamer…

      I have nothing on the daemonettes and bloodcrushers though… well maybe morale is the only thing going for crushers… but no, I still think they’re pretty bad…

      • Avatar
        rvd1ofakind January 11, 2018 10:14 am #

        Well it regenerates the “fly thing” only on 1 wound. So that’s hardly worth it over D3 wounds.

        I think the current “fly things” are worth it. Nothing gamebreaking ofc but they’re good enough to warrant a spot, unlike bloodcrushers who are just irredeemable.

        Pink clears chaff better. Maybe flamers can be used to fight fliers as they autohit… But their gun is more antihorde.
        I have no idea where you’d take herald on chariot. Same spells, bad damage, higher price. Durability doesn’t matter as he’s a character.

    • Avatar
      Icoop January 11, 2018 1:40 pm #

      CSM have the Nurgle Heal Stratagem and it is actually decent. I’ve used it on Abbadon a few times when it mattered. I’m not sure how starved Daemons are, Frankie’s list from last week had 12 CP, which is about the most one can get unless they’re intentionally min/maxing for CP. I’d say in general about 80% of stratagems are situational this is no exception. Of the Cult powers, Endless Cocophony is the only one I use every game, and I almost expect a CP increase for it in the future.

    • Avatar
      abusepuppy January 12, 2018 11:23 pm #

      Flamers ignore hit penalties. Pink Horrors don’t. You’ll feel like a big boy with your block of Horrors throwing down 60 shots, until you realize you’re hitting on 6s against those Eldar and suddenly it’s not looking so good anymore.

      The Nurgle stratagem is expensive and won’t be used a lot, but it is good to have around. As others have pointed out, using it to restore a big model (Beast, Drone, Toad) to a unit can be huge. The psychic power doesn’t make it redundant because you can use both of them back-to-back in order to get double effect; stacking effects are more powerful on a multiplicative curve, not a linear one.

      Bloodcrushers are bad. No argument there.

      Daemonettes are fine and good (S4 with a Herald means they actually have a higher damage output than Bloodletters do against most targets), but the problem is Slaanesh doesn’t have many models beyond that. KoS is shit, Seekers are too fragile, Chariots are the wrong kind of target to hang with other things. Their psychic powers and artifacts are pretty good, though.

      • Avatar
        rvd1ofakind January 13, 2018 2:00 am #

        Close range to hit penalties are rare, therefor you should go pinks most of the time

        Nurgle stg: People mention that, but it restores a big model with 1 wound only. I’d rather restore D3 to a wounded model tbh.

        And I don’t know what you’re looking at but unless my calculations are off, when comparing Bloodletters to Daemonettes, daemonettes are up to two times worse against every target(least worse against chaff…

        • Avatar
          abusepuppy January 13, 2018 7:01 am #

          Close range to-hit penalties are pretty easy to get at -1. And you won’t always get to land where you want to, because people get to deploy units down to push out that 9″ bubble.

          If you use the stratagem to bring a big model back to 1 wound, you can then heal it with other effects (of which there are several.)

          Daemonettes are superior to Bloodletters anytime they aren’t charging, because 1 base attack isn’t exciting and getting to swing first is pretty good. They are roughly equivalent against Orks and other targets with 5+ or worse saves when charging, but worse against MEQs (albeit not by as much as people tend to think.) They have better support abilities (such as “fight twice”) and are faster on the ground (which matters quite a bit because enemies aren’t just gonna stand next to you and accepts being assaulted.)

          • Avatar
            rvd1ofakind January 13, 2018 9:21 am

            Well flamers only have 12” range so they won’t reach those 12”+ -1 to hits anyway.

            I really doubt anyone will use the Nurgle one. It’s way too expensive compared to how CP hungry daemons are

            And when are bloodletters not charging/being charged/heroic interventioned really… At most it’s the oppoonents turn and then they either kill or be killed. And with how handidly they beat deamonettes with charge… Charge + not charge > 2x daemonettes. The fight first thing is very negligable in my experience.

  5. Avatar
    Don Tomaso January 11, 2018 10:53 am #

    Hehe, I know all about being disappointed at the flawed parts of 8th 😛

    Slightly OT but I would like Reeces take on the following idea:

    8th favor first turners to strongly, armies like nids and other charger heavy lists are slightly op unless you basically HAVE to include a fodder bubble in your army in order to stay on par. This sucks for armies with no cheap fodder.

    My suggestion in the form of a simple rule change that I want feedback on is as following:

    What if any unit that wishes to charge the same turn they deepstruck must do so at an automatic -1 inch (or possibly -2) but only for the turn they DS?

    Treating deepstrikers as if they deepstrike opponents like if they were in a crater would ease the first turn advantage and also free up lots of the mandatory fodder bubbles in many lists.

    Feedback? What is bad, what is good? Will this ruin balance more then it helps?

    • Avatar
      rvd1ofakind January 11, 2018 11:09 am #

      Are close combat armies dominating the meta? Last I checked it was shooting armies…
      Astra Militarum
      Space Marines
      Chaos Space Marines (the least shooty of the 3 but still a lot more shooty than melee)
      These top 3 armies(results wise) are all shooty armies. Why do you want to nerf melee when it finally does something (tyranids, chaos daemons).

      The “screen” problem is there both for melee and shooting. With shooting you can’t even screen, you have to have scouts, so that’s even a bigger problem.

    • Reecius
      Reecius January 11, 2018 2:54 pm #

      The player going second wins more often in the ITC Champion’s Missions, FWIW.

      Maybe try them out if you find first turn to be too strong.

      • Avatar
        Don Tomaso January 11, 2018 7:11 pm #

        Will do. Sounds fun.

        We are only playing rulebook missions here, maelstrom mostly.

  6. Avatar
    Don Tomaso January 11, 2018 10:18 pm #

    “The player going first wins: 44% of the time.
    The Player going second wins: 56% of the time.”

    Is this because of the core rules/missions or specifically because ITC missions?

    • Avatar
      rvd1ofakind January 11, 2018 10:48 pm #

      ITC missions.

      As the game favors first player, the ITC missions balance it out by favoring the second player to balance it out.

      • Reecius
        Reecius January 12, 2018 9:54 am #

        Yeah. The player going second sees exactly what the player going first did in terms of how many kills they got, how many objectives they hold, and get the opportunity to counter.

        What we’ve found is that it is almost always best to go second in our missions unless you absolutely have to do something on the first turn.

        I am actually quite pleased with the ratio right now, it is close enough to make it seem so far that there is a balance between going first and second whereas in book missions the ratio is heavily skewed to first turn.

        • Avatar
          Dbiesto January 12, 2018 1:02 pm #

          Ya, that one mission with whoever has the relic wins is a horrible tournament match so glad you got rid of that. Especially now that any daemon unit can deepstrike in. 30 plaguebearers would be a nightmare to kill as they run away with all the buffs.

          • Reecius
            Reecius January 15, 2018 11:43 am

            Exactly, lol. Or Celestine just flying away with it on turn 1….

  7. Avatar
    Benji January 12, 2018 4:29 pm #

    I think the emperor was probably aware of the deal Magnus made with tzeentch trading his eye to save his legion. If Magnus was shown the emperors plans to use the webway cutting off humanities reliance on psykers then tzeentch would have seen it too and found away to spoil his plan anyway.

    • Reecius
      Reecius January 15, 2018 11:43 am #

      Interesting theory…

  8. Avatar
    Nick Wenker January 15, 2018 12:40 pm #

    There are a lot of improvements in this book, which make the places where the codex stumbled all the more obvious.

    Broadly the codex mostly failed to fix issues with morale negation and CP regeneration, and it’s unfortunate that there aren’t more stratagems when some of the ones that were included again focused on the rarely-used summoning (really getting sick of these in all the Chaos codex, haha).

    More particularly, I think a lot of people are very disappointed by the many units that surprisingly didn’t get buffed more or even got nerfed (Bloodcrushers, Soulgrinders, Lords of Change, Furies, Beasts, Kairos, Be’lakor, etc.) and that the Tzeentch psychic powers are still so lackluster. I think a lot of people (me included) were also really disapointed to gear that the stratagems would likely be FAQ’d to prevent smart stratagem use on Chaos Space Marine units (keeping that ability would’ve further encouraged smart like with infiltrators and screens and discouraged alpha-strike shooting armies that just take a 400-500+ big unit off the table each shooting phase).

    Overall Daemons seems like a good codex that falls somewhere between middle-of-the-road codexes like Death Guard and AdMech and the slam-dunk, everything-is-great codexes like Eldar and Tyranids and Astra Militarum.

    If the first 2018 Chapter Approved improved / cut costs on a few more of the lackluster Daemon units to give them an additional kick in the pants, then I think this would become a fantastic codex despite the morale and CP issues.

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