New FAQs for Eldar, Ynnari and Index units!

Xenos 1 FAQ

Codex Craftworlds FAQ

Index Units with Codexes

What do you all think?


About Reecius

The fearless leader of the intrepid group of gamers gone retailers at Frontline Gaming!

141 Responses to “New GW FAQ!”

  1. Venkarel November 16, 2017 10:14 am #

    Well that changes things. Ynnari are going to be a smaller part of Eldar armies. It looks like they are treating “as if” actions as “exactly as” meaning things that you can only do in a specific phase are allowed. And I can take my Autarch on a bike with a lance, reaper launcher and banshee mask.

  2. Mortetvie November 16, 2017 10:17 am #

    Wow, did Ynnari need to be nerfed that much? Ouch!

    • Venkarel November 16, 2017 10:19 am #

      Yeah now sorta Sisters of Space Elves or SoS.

  3. C-Stock November 16, 2017 10:22 am #

    Holy shit. Way, way, way overboard on Ynnari.

  4. N17 November 16, 2017 10:26 am #

    Heavy handed nerf to SfD.

    As an Eldar and (sometimes) Ynnari player I’m perfectly fine with the limit to only one type of action. I think this one is appropriate. However, the loss of being able to soulburst in your opponent’s turn is too much.

    I guess people got their reason to stay CWE at the moment?

  5. Nick Wenker November 16, 2017 10:29 am #

    Would’ve been fine with either no soulbursting in opponent’s turn, or limiting it to one of each SB type in each player turn, but not complaining about this. Might encourage a mix of different types of units and getting closer to trigger SB, rather than just Dark Reaper and IC parking lots in the back (which are still great with Craftworlds). Will be interesting to see if / when there is a Ynarri codex.

    • Venkarel November 16, 2017 10:36 am #

      You will still see double shooting units of 9-10 dark reapers (with Yvraine) in Ynnari. They can Fire and Fade back into to cover, which is very good (probably better than any of the CW warlord traits which is what you will be giving up). What you are not going to see is any troops, elites, vehicles, or most fast attack besides shining spears.

  6. Lockinfinity November 16, 2017 10:46 am #

    this isnt a nerf its consistency. Ynnari still have insane abilities.

  7. Reecius November 16, 2017 10:49 am #

    Ynnari with the Codex points was extraordinarily powerful, so something had to be done in order to bring in balance. GW chose to limit Soul Bursting to what they felt was a more reasonable limititation while still allowing it to function and to allow Ynnari players to use the Craftworld Points. I think when you weigh it all out, Yannri are still great and, Craftworlds is actually very appealing now, as it should be. It’s a choice now, instead of auto-default to Ynnari.

    • Mortetvie November 16, 2017 11:00 am #

      The double nerf is a bit much IMO. If anything it should have been one or the other.

      • Reecius November 16, 2017 11:04 am #

        Well, getting things taken away is always crappy, I get it. But the interrupt actions were super not fun, and they are a hangover concept from the previous edition, too. How everyone views them is up to the individual–I’m not telling you what to think or feel about it of course–but I think this is very positive for the game as a whole. But, for Ynnari players, it is a a shock for sure.

        • Wulfey November 16, 2017 11:14 am #

          The big problem was the timing of all the interrupts was comically unclear and subject to all kinds of power gaming. If the soulburst is instant, can it occur while the other player is rolling dice? What if they are half way through a fast dice of a unit’s shooting? 8th edition as written only plays smoothly in an I-go-you-go format.

          With the various ‘intercept’ strategems that do break igoyougo, they include clear timing on when the interrupt occurs (usually ‘at the end of the movement phase’).

          • Venkarel November 16, 2017 11:16 am

            They clarified this in a prior FAQ.

        • Nick November 16, 2017 11:35 am #

          Not to mention that getting so many free rounds of moving and shooting (usually with some rerolls) did a lot to slow down games.

          • abusepuppy November 16, 2017 12:05 pm

            Ynnari tend to field very, very elite armies (30-50 models total), so they don’t really take up a disproportionate amount of game time- especially because many of their actions (movement, flamer weapons, etc) get to skip one or more of the rolling steps.

        • mortetvie November 16, 2017 12:08 pm #

          Interrupt actions may not have been “super fun” but neither there are SO many other things that are not super fun to face that have yet to be addressed.

          I’ve been playing Ynnari since they came out and I am apparently the top ranked Ynnari player in the ITC rankings and from my experience-playing in competitive events-the ONLY thing keeping the army competitive in light of what other armies can bring is the ability to get multiple actions out of your units, especially during an opponent’s turn. Otherwise, most other armies can simply out fight/shoot you. Soulburst was the edge Ynnari needed to be relevant in a competitive setting.

          Also, a lot of people are arguing that the reduced points for CWE make Ynnari too strong but what about units that did not receive a points reduction like Wraithguard? I think the pendulum has swung too hard in the wrong direction without adequate justification.

          Overall I am looking forward to seeing what a Reborn Warhost will get and how these limitations will be mitigated in a Ynnari codex but until then, and with so many other rampant issues like smite spam, this nerf just seems unjustified.

          • Reecius November 16, 2017 12:31 pm

            I understand what you’re saying buddy, but with CWE you get a so much I think you will find it makes up for the losses. You can still take a Ynnari detachment, too and get some of that utility.

            And remember, CA is on the way so some of the other big ticket issues in the game may get addressed sooner than later.

    • Venkarel November 16, 2017 11:10 am #

      I agree. I think the driving force behind this is that soulburst is “unfun” and affects play experience in the mid tables. There is no data supporting this degree of nerfs at the top tables. As of yet, Ynnari has not been overwhelming the top 20%, nor have they actual won a major tourney in a couple of months. The top dogs are CSM and or demons then IG and or imperial soup. This weekend will be a good test as there are 2-3 GTs.

      • Reecius November 16, 2017 11:46 am #

        Sure, but remember, the objective of a lot of FAQs and rules are not aimed at strictly the best players in the game, you know? They’re there to make the game more fun and balanced for as many people as possible.

        • Venkarel November 16, 2017 11:54 am #

          Agreed on the part about FAQs are for all types of players and that GW is well within their right to adjust the game if it is unfun. Do not know about the balanced part. But I think “balance” is a fantasy that those who like to play chess try to impose on a variance based game.

          • Reecius November 16, 2017 12:01 pm

            Sure, perfect balance is impossible but you can rope in the outliers. Otherwise we’re back to 7th ed and madness, lol. It turned people away from the game, pushing towards balance is better for the aggregate.

        • abusepuppy November 16, 2017 12:04 pm #

          Do you actually think that Ynnari were what was causing people to lose enjoyment from the game in the current edition? I can think of quite a few more likely culprits than them that seem like they might need to some work first, even if we’re presuming that this change was aimed more at mid/bottom-tier players than those at the top. Magnarion, Smite spam, artillery, character abuse, Chaos/Imperial Soup armies, alpha strikes, and many more factors seem like much more relevant things to be looking at if you’re trying to make the middle tables more palatable to players.

          • Venkarel November 16, 2017 12:16 pm

            For me the most frustrating part of the game is the ineffectiveness of close combat. In the sense you either wipe out what you attack, “surround a model” (hard to do when they pull causalities, can do it in consolidation) or they fall back and you die. I think there should at least be a contested roll off or they both get movement plus a d6 to get away or something. The idea my unit just stands there while the opponents guys just saunter off is infuriating.
            Followed closely by the cover and terrain rules. I will spare you the rant.

          • David Alastair Hayden November 16, 2017 1:28 pm

            What Abusepuppy said. I was at Warzone last weekend. And it was a blast. CSM are the majority of what I saw, the way Eldar were in 7th. I know more codexes will help with this. But it’s looking off kilter at the moment.

            I have played Ynarri and I do think they deserved an adjustment. But this appears to be a severe nerf. I took Craftworlds to Warzone instead of Ynarri so I’m not too upset. But I did that because I think Craftworlds is just as good as Ynarri, depending on what units you own.

            And I can’t say that Ynarri were any worse offenders as far as not having fun as other power builds are.

          • Brakhal November 16, 2017 3:08 pm

            I don’t think ynnari were a powerfull army, but for sure it wasn’t funny to play against. When playing against ynnari there was 2 options: killing the reapers and then avoid contact, or going full pve stomp, as they will constantly interrupting in too many ways to bother planning.

            The sfd was a horrible one-sided mechanic, giving a lot of fun to the ynnari player while he’s opponent was continually interrupted. Is like playing a videogame with stun mechanics, but your opponent is the only one with it: it can be balanced, but is not fun.

            I agree with your list of stuff that needs to be adressed, but I do like this change too (at least in the no interrupting restriction). Not because I think ynnari needed a nerf, but because I didn’t like to play against “stunning” mechanics.

      • AngryPanda November 17, 2017 11:44 am #

        Data? GW laughs at your feeble mind that needs data to support decisions! What, do you also check if there is a target audience if you release a whole new product? You do not understand these wise masters. Their decisions are as advanced as five-dimensional chess. As in that is as real as the data they base decisions on.

    • Cavalier November 16, 2017 11:36 am #

      I have a real Ynnari army with the characters etc. all in Ynnari colors and while the nerf is pretty extreme… Ynnari are still excellent IMO. The CW points, rules changes are all excellent and the interaction between the Warlock powers and Yvraine casting the Soulburst spell is still insane. You can have 3x move Shining Spears, Banshees with quicken + soulburst spell. You can assign the double shooting to your shooting units and double fighting to your combat units. Huge nerf but still excellent.

      • Reecius November 16, 2017 11:47 am #

        I agree, the change feels crazy in the short term, but ultimately with what they gained (points reductions, etc.) I think Ynnari is still totally viable.

    • Tautastic November 16, 2017 11:42 am #

      I do believe Ynnari is basically dead in the competitive environment. Only people saying that is still viable is WoTP on a full dark reapers squads. But people forget you need Yvraine for that. She cost almost 5 dark reapers. Also, all those dark reapers lose the benefits to gain SfD (Battle Focus, Craftworld traits, CWE WL traits, and CWE Relic).

      I would rather have 5 extra dark reapers with -1 to hit from Alaitoc and gain a way better selection of WL traits plus a free relic.

      I see almost no reason to ever go Ynnari now? You just lose too much for going Ynnari…

      • Reecius November 16, 2017 11:47 am #

        Why not try it and find out for real? Theory only takes us so far.

        • abusepuppy November 16, 2017 12:01 pm #

          Some theories work just fine without having to be tested, though. I don’t need to stab myself with a knife to know it’s gonna hurt when I do so.

          • Reecius November 16, 2017 12:01 pm

            And logical fallacies are logical fallacies, lol.

          • abusepuppy November 16, 2017 1:05 pm

            I hadn’t realized that the ability to observe past events and make predictions about future ones is a logical fallacy. I’ll have to keep that one in my back pocket for the next argument I want to win.

          • Japatoes November 17, 2017 12:21 am

            A player at my FLGS accused FLG of doing some “light shilling”. When he first said this, I thought it was pretty far of base, but after reading some of the responses here I can see why he said that.

          • Reecius November 17, 2017 8:46 am

            Some light shilling?

          • Shas’O November 17, 2017 3:14 am

            That word… I don’t think it mean what you think it means…
            “A hypothesis is either a suggested explanation for an observable phenomenon, or a reasoned prediction of a possible causal correlation among multiple phenomena. In science, a theory is a tested, well-substantiated, unifying explanation for a set of verified, proven factors.”

        • Tautastic November 16, 2017 12:01 pm #

          Fair point. I will probably stick with pure CWE for now (nice little change – Got to remember I have battle focus!!!)

          Once the smokes settles and a few tournaments results are up I will revisit the Ynnari faction again.

          I just hope they at least get their own Codex or at least an expanded psychic powers, WL traits, and relics.

          • Reecius November 16, 2017 12:02 pm

            Yeah, good call. I mean, the choices to us are to either stop using them or try to use them within the new rules, right? Is what it is. May as well be positive about it and try to adapt.

    • Brakhal November 16, 2017 4:35 pm #

      You honestly think that they are still “great” even after soul burst, their defining feature, has been completely neutered? How many grey knight paladins out of 5?

      • Brakhal November 16, 2017 4:56 pm #

        Can’t remember when I wrote that. I guess I got drunk…

  8. Davis A Centis November 16, 2017 11:04 am #

    Wow, this is about as heavy as the Ban Hammer can get. Not only does it stop ALL Soulbursting on your opponent’s turns, but it also seriously limits how much Soul Bursting is done on your turn. Are Ynnari good? Sure, but at this point I can’t see any reason to play them over actual, factual, Eldar, aside from a small group using the Psychic Power to shoot twice each turn (which is still good, and will be good, but will not be a whole-army thing).

    If they’re willing to reduce things by this much, any chance of Imperial Guard orders being limited to each order only being used once each turn?

    • Reecius November 16, 2017 11:07 am #

      The AM FAQ already came and went, they made the changes they felt were needed. I don’t think they will introduce any more limitations outside of what they said was coming in CA: points adjustments.

      Ynnari still have a strong benefit and lower points. But, they’re not what they were, obviously. It will take time to adjust but I don’t think Ynnari will disappear, they just won’t be the only flavor of Eldar you see at matched play events anymore.

      • Venkarel November 16, 2017 11:11 am #

        Reece this is just not true. Since Codex drop CWs have been represented on the tables at least as much as Ynnari. To be honest most players are playing both that I read about or encounter.

        • Reecius November 16, 2017 11:51 am #

          In the couple of weeks it has been out? lol, I mean, I am not saying you’re wrong but that is hardly enough time to tell. A lot of folks are going to try Craftworlds purely out of curiosity.

          Again, you are free to see things as you choose, but obviously GW found Ynnari with the new Codex to be too disruptive and made a change. How you view it is up to you though, of course.

          • Venkarel November 16, 2017 11:58 am

            This applies in the reverse as well. If the result are not indicative because of lack of data due to a short time span, then there has not been enough time to make any of the FAQ changes based on perceived power level, as they all come out two weeks after the codex.

          • CWDub November 16, 2017 11:59 am

            It was dumb to be able to do a Soulburst action “for free” over and over again. I relish the Ynnari tears for they are delicious.

            Now, if they want to bring back old school out-of-turn Soul Burst for 2 CPs a pop when the codex comes back as a strategum, that’s a different story.

          • abusepuppy November 16, 2017 11:59 am

            Reece, you have to admit- GW’s assessments of how powerful units and abilities are very often are not even close to correct. Just because GW thought that Ynnari should be weaker doesn’t make that decision correct, and even giving them some benefit of doubt due to playtesting I am skeptical of the whole thing- I’ve been testing out Ynnari and Craftworlds armies since the book was first leaked and no Ynnari army I’ve come up with comes anywhere close to a pure codex one.

          • Reecius November 16, 2017 12:05 pm

            @AP Whether you believe it or not is irrelevant, buddy. And GW does have an entire team of folks dedicated to testing things out and providing insights. You may disagree, but the choices are not uninformed or random.

            @Venkrakel Sure, assuming they only went off of community reactions and feedback. But, again, they have a team dedicated to running these things through the paces over time and in advance. The choice was not made suddenly or without thought. You may disagree with the choice, but it was not an uninformed one.

      • Chandler November 16, 2017 11:16 am #

        I think when you look at it they made Ynnari more in line with other armies out there. A lot of armies can make double moves, shoot or fight twice in the fight phase, etc. Ynnari can too WITHOUT having to spend command points to do so. That makes them still very very good.

        The question now is, do the benefits of Strength from Death outweigh those of using Craftworlds traits like -1 to hit, 6+ FNP across the board, etc? I think the answer to that is unclear. It would take some practice games to see how it all shakes out.

        Players will knee jerk that this is the death to Ynnari and will just put them on the shelf or go to Craftworlds, but I think they still have a place in the competitive meta.

        • abusepuppy November 16, 2017 11:57 am #

          It’s true, Ynnari get for free what other armies do with a psychic power.

          However, the distinction was that it was conditional and was replacing other abilities on the datasheet- which were a bit trivial in some cases, but a lot less so in others. If Soulburst had no limit on its range (or at least a longer range than “practically standing inside the unit”) you could make an argument that it was still useful, but it’s so immensely restricted now that I have trouble envisioning it being at all useful.

          Some people will still play Ynnari, obviously, because some people will always play a faction no matter how bad it is- but no one who is interested in making a truly strong competitive army will do so. I think it’s unlikely that most players will even both bringing Ynnari alongside other types of Eldar, since you’re giving up a number of things to get that.

          • Venkarel November 16, 2017 12:06 pm

            I do not think this can be said definitively yet, but have to agree that CW seems to be the better army. Still need testing to confirm this and to confirm the degree of difference.

  9. Ahkris November 16, 2017 11:15 am #

    At least toning down the Ynnari opens up Eldar and things such as standard harlequins or drukhari to be attractive options once again rather than “straight up worse”

    • abusepuppy November 16, 2017 11:19 am #

      Craftworld Eldar arguably were already better than Ynnari at this point.

      • David Alastair Hayden November 16, 2017 1:34 pm #

        I took Craftworlds to Warzone because I felt they were stronger based on the models I have. Alaitoc’s -1 is critical when you don’t go first. Plus the stratagems.

  10. abusepuppy November 16, 2017 11:18 am #

    Welp, there go all Ynnari armies. Being able to perform the same Soulburst more than once in a turn would have been painful enough, but _also_ being unable to Soulburst on the enemy turn essentially destroys Ynnari as an army entirely. In terms of competitive play, they are a complete non-entity.

    I’m glad they finally clarified the whole Spirit Stones/Forceshield thing, though, since it had been a problem for quite a while now.

    Allowing people to continue using Index units is a bit confusing, but since it really only applies to a small handful of things I don’t see it being a real issue. The Autarch is gonna be a prime candidate for it- you give up your potential bonus CP, but in return you get much, much stronger upgrade options.

    • zyekian November 16, 2017 11:20 am #

      ^ Hopefully Reece reads and respects this.

      I strongly agree, they should have proceeded slower with one of these nerfs and them let it ride for a few months.

      The two nerfs together really hurts them severely, makes them much less interesting and strategic to play, less interactive, and less fun.

      • Reecius November 16, 2017 11:53 am #

        You guys know I don’t make these rules, right?

        And you guys also know that they test these things a lot and over a long period of time, right? This wasn’t decided in a day or something.

        • Venkarel November 16, 2017 12:04 pm #

          Come on Reece. If this was true they would have corrected the Ynnari in the index not four FAQ’s (3 index Xenos and one Codex CW), designers comments (orginal and revised) and a codex later.

          • Reecius November 16, 2017 12:07 pm

            Why’s that?

            Do you know the timeline everything was made and tested over? If not, you cannot know the answer to that question, you know? It is entirely possible and in fact, what has hapenned.

          • Venkarel November 16, 2017 12:25 pm

            Reece I agree this is a possibility they could have been testing far enough ahead to get thorough data but not so far ahead that they could have corrected in one or ..errr five goes. I doubt it though and doubt that they were not swayed by tournament data (now obsolete post codex CW release). Either way I hope they read comments or hear them from you, but obviously ultimately it is what it is.

          • AngryPanda November 17, 2017 11:46 am

            No, we don’t know the timelines. ’cause as usual, GW expects us just to trust their process. Based on their fantastic track record.

    • Venkarel November 16, 2017 11:27 am #

      I think I will continue to use Ynnari for now. It will just be Yvraine, 3 Kabalite Warriors units, a 9 man squad of Dark Reapers (to double shoot or move) and two 4-5 man units of Shining Spears (to double shoot, move, charge, or fight). Maybe a Farseer or spiritseer (psychic soulburst i.e. smite). That way I can maximize the number of soulburst actions I get in my turn. It might not be better than a free relic and CW warlord traits though.

      • Reecius November 16, 2017 11:54 am #

        Exactly, they still have a LOT to offer. It’s just different now. Ynnari aren’t dead, but the natural reaction is hyperbole, just as with Conscripts.

        • C-Stock November 16, 2017 12:09 pm #

          They can use the power that made them fun and interesting much less often. They’re flatly much weaker.

          Hopefully Chapter Approved nerfs IG and demons. Because these nerfs screw up balance in the meta.

          • Ytook November 16, 2017 12:19 pm

            And the Craftworld units got better and cheaper, by a fair amount in some cases

        • KingAceNumber1 November 17, 2017 6:29 am #

          Not sure what you’re talking about re conscripts, guard is totally 100% dead in the competitive scene since they took that nerf /s

          • Reecius November 17, 2017 9:01 am

            Ah, what? You’re being sarcastic, right? They just won another 100+ person tournament last weekend. AM do not need conscripts to win, my friend. Their entire codex is stacked with awesome stuff.

      • Tautastic November 16, 2017 12:52 pm #

        Well just think about this:

        -9 dark reapers double shooting (need Yvraine and pass the test) vs 14 dark reapers with a – 1 to hit, much better WL traits and a free relic (Yvraine costs about 5 dark reapers)

        -Same can be said with the shinning spears.

        Is Ynnari dead? No, but is most likely dead in the competitive format. They basically flipped the scenario:

        “Why take X unit as CWE instead of Ynnari?”

        “Why take X unit as Ynnari instead of pure CWE and keep battle focus, craftworld traits, better WL traits, free relics, and an extra 132pts because of Yvraine”.

        • David Alastair Hayden November 16, 2017 1:36 pm #

          I’d rather have the -1 on my Dark Reapers. Cause you don’t always get to go first. And you can’t count on LoS blocking terrain in your deployment zone.

    • Nephilm14 November 16, 2017 8:45 pm #

      You don’t lose the potential bonus CP. It says to use the codex version alongside the appropriate wargear in the index. The codex autarch gets his rules, and has the added benefit of just taking the old wargear options.

    • AngryPanda November 17, 2017 11:48 am #

      Isn’t this how they always did this? The old system of nerfing a unit AND hiking it’s price basically. They never figured out the concept of incremental changes. If I compare this to the tiny steps Infinity took to make TAGs more valid season by season, always nudging just a bit to see the results it just seriously shows they try to do surgery with a sledgehammer.

  11. Ahkris November 16, 2017 11:18 am #

    Also i am extremely pleased GW decided to reiterate the index units with codex thing. In my local scene i have seen a worrying amount of tournaments who straight up banned using index entries as soon as a codex came out. Very uncool for all the older white scar players and guys with cool converted characters and vehicles etc. I know GW had said this before but its good to have it in a clear place where people can find it and offered in a clear way.

  12. zyekian November 16, 2017 11:18 am #

    Yeah, ferocious nerf that likely went too far. I agree Ynnari were simply a 6th craftworld that’s better than the other five, but Ynnari were the primary way Eldar players could be effective against IG parking lot + rerolling lots of stuff + smiters.

    I think these nerfs to Ynnari will just elevate IG even more, and further incentivize their overpowered, non-interactive stand-and-blow everything up turn one play style.

    • abusepuppy November 16, 2017 11:22 am #

      Alaitoc is actually a pretty huge disincentive to IG shooting lists, since it reduces a lot of their firepower to near-uselessness.

      • Menosj November 16, 2017 6:25 pm #

        I respectfully disagree, with all the rerolls, large number of shots, and other ways in the codex to get +1, I don’t see it as much of an issue, I play dark Eldar and almost everything I take has a -1 to hit, and it doesn’t stop the guard from turning me into Swiss cheese.

        • Schmuvness November 17, 2017 5:01 am #

          IG tank spam/artillery spam annihilates my alatioc. The rerolls and other shenanigans overcome the -1 and I just die. They even kill me behind BLOS.

          • Reecius November 17, 2017 8:59 am

            Eldar are weak to no LoS shooting. IME, that is their one real weakness.

  13. C-Stock November 16, 2017 11:32 am #

    So the Ynnari ability will be able to be used less than half as often as before. One third maybe.

  14. Raupaw November 16, 2017 11:42 am #

    Designers note FAQ

    Q: Can Characters only perform a
    Heroic Intervention against enemy units
    that charged this turn, or can they do so
    against any enemy unit?
    A: They can do so against any enemy unit.
    Note that they can only do so if they end up closer
    to the nearest enemy model, whether it charged
    this turn or not

    So, Geoff did a legal move yesterday. This doesn’t mean that maybe this will be change in the chapter aproved. Since the beggining this is the way is played.

  15. rivercity_gaming November 16, 2017 11:46 am #

    Reece! Does this FAQ regarding Heroic Intervention clear up the discussion at the end of the game last night?

    Seems timely since just last night we were all making note of how that hadn’t been addressed.

    • Reecius November 16, 2017 11:57 am #

      It sure does, doesn’t it? GW went RAW with it so them there is the rules. And yeah, the timing is pretty funny, lol. Geoff and I were laughing about it this morning.

      • crispy86 November 16, 2017 3:29 pm #

        I bet on the inside you wept salty tears for that Dire Avenger Exarch

  16. Wayniac November 16, 2017 11:54 am #

    I think allowing the new codex datasheet with index options is opening Pandora’s box as far as competitive things go (worse than it currently is IMHO as a not competitive but considering it person), but then again I did want an Autarch with Reaper Launcher…

  17. C-Stock November 16, 2017 11:59 am #

    Yeah I’ve only been able to use the Ynnari rules twice, and it was to run my Harlequins with Craftworld. I *had* planned from a fluff point of view to run all 3 on the table together, but why would I ever do it now?

    Good job GW, I bought your Gathering Storms book and your triumvirate. Too bad I’ll be using neither…

  18. rvd1ofakind November 16, 2017 11:59 am #

    Geoff was right, Reece was left! Or something…

    • Reecius November 16, 2017 12:10 pm #

      I think you mean wrong, lol.

      • rvd1ofakind November 16, 2017 7:44 pm #

        It’s a dumb meme :p

  19. Revenant02 November 16, 2017 12:06 pm #

    Just my take, but as a beginning player with an interest in getting some CW Eldar I love this change. Before I was staying away because not running Ynarrii seemed to be shooting myself in the foot but I felt the turn disruptions of soul burst really damaged the flow and pace of 8th ed and subverted their entire design. This is a really smart move by the GW rules team. Looking forward to chapter approved.

    • Reecius November 16, 2017 12:09 pm #

      Yeah, I agree. The entire Ynnari rule set was convoluted and generally unenjoyable. I know others disagree, that is just my opinion, and I am also glad for a change. I am not glad it upset folks, that sucks, but I think it was better for the game as a whole.

      • David Alastair Hayden November 16, 2017 2:45 pm #

        Unenjoyable like watching Ultramarines re-roll everything and get their command points back a third of the time?

        The problem is the Ynarri rules as envisioned should never have been translated to 8th. So when you take that away, people will be unhappy. Imagine needing anyone’s army rules.

        I’m sure nerfing Girlyman or Magnus would make people unhappy too. I know they didn’t do it lightly. But it does seem that they overdid it.

        I would’ve preferred it to work as now and trigger only on a roll of 3+ or 4+. Something along those lines.

  20. Ytook November 16, 2017 12:14 pm #

    Interested to see what a Ynnari codex would bring, feel like they could do with their own points values.

  21. C-Stock November 16, 2017 12:16 pm #

    Yeah I agree, playing Ynnari is a pain. Their rules need a reboot. Hopefully they will get a codex before long with fun, effective rules that are less awkward.

  22. C-Stock November 16, 2017 12:18 pm #

    Harlequins are bad now though, they needed the Ynnari ability intact. Those poor dudes really need a codex now.

    (And poor jesters…)

    • David Alastair Hayden November 16, 2017 2:46 pm #

      Harlequins are pretty darn good on their own if you build the list carefully.

      • zyekian November 16, 2017 3:39 pm #

        They look okay on paper but as a fanatic Harlequin player, I can tell you they suffer mightily in the meta.

        Harlequins are exceptional at killing elite armies. The problem is, elite armies are poor in 8th edition (see: Grey Knights). Instead the meta centers around hordes and vehicle parking lots, both of which harlies are not built to counter.

        Basically everything that’s good in the meta, Harlies are bad at fighting.

        • David Alastair Hayden November 16, 2017 5:11 pm #

          That’s probably true. I’ve only gotten to play with a few small troupes allied in. Haven’t had a chance to build and paint all my models yet.

        • Schmuvness November 17, 2017 5:05 am #

          Man, I hope Reece and others see what zykian just wrote about harlies. This is so freaking true. Every match I play in tournaments is against either hordes or tons of vehicles, leaving me with too few attacks to kill little dudes and stupid 3-inch melta pistols and middling CC attacks to slog through too many hulls.

          Harlequins are just plain bad.

          Now that they don’t get nearly as many bonus attacks to help them keep up, they’re officially dead in competitive or semi-competitive play. Real real dead.

          • Reecius November 17, 2017 9:00 am

            In our experience, so long as you have solid LoS blocking terrain, Harlies are actually very good. We play them a lot, and at tournaments/etc. and have not found them to suffer unless they cannot hide.

          • EmbraceYourInnerGeek November 17, 2017 11:14 am

            I played a guard vehicle gun line with Harlies 3 times at a 74 man tournament a couple of weekends ago. Won 2 and lost 1, which I might have won if I hadn’t made a silly mistake. And there was no (not a single piece) of los blocking terrain in any of the games, and I went 2nd in 2 out of three games. It’s doable.

  23. mortetvie November 16, 2017 12:39 pm #

    I just wanted to say, that in my experience with Ynnari in multiple editions and major competitive events; it *was* fun as a player to position your army to be able to capitalize on the SFD rules and put your opponent in a difficult position in terms of what parts of your army to engage. I can see how it may not be fun to play against but that is true of *anything* that is really strong in the game-it is a challenge but it was not game-breakingly good IMO.

    The old SFD rules were also essential for certain units to be relevant and competitive options in whatever meta I was playing in. Specifically, Wraith units (e.g., Wraithguard and Wraithblades) never benefited from Battle Focus so the only way to boost their effectiveness was through Ynnari->SFD. Wraith units also did not go down in points so the nerf is a double whammy…

    Overall, the old SFD rules encouraged MSU play to capitalize on the SFD mechanic much like how the current rules encourage players to make soupy/smite spammy armies as represented in the top tables at most major events. If they address SFD they hopefully will address the soupy/smity issues in other armies.

    With that said, the new SFD rules encourage taking single large units (as opposed to MSU) to get a single, more impactful benefit out of the SFD rules on your turn so where you might take 3×5 smaller units you are now encouraged to simply take 1×10 or so.

    Ultimately I really don’t like the nerf as the game currently sits. However, if/when soupy/smite armies are toned down and the Ynnari codex comes out, it might not be so bad. I suspect Ynnari codex will provide some benefits such as getting 2 soulburst actions for one (like the reborn warhost used to allow) and possibly a CP to use a soulburst action in opponent’s turn, it might not end up being so bad but GW really should have addressed the more problematic areas of the game first.

    • AngryPanda November 17, 2017 11:50 am #

      I agree that it is fun to be able to react to your opponent. Imagine how fun it would have been if they had just built that into the whole game by allowing unit activations instead of whole player turns while revamping the game.

  24. Cavalier November 16, 2017 12:41 pm #

    Just a couple quick questions…. can a Ynnari detachment use CW stratagems? What about an army with 2 detachments one CW the other Ynnari… can they share CP’s? If someone can give me a shake down on this I’d really appreciate it. I was hoping for clarification on this via the FAQ

    • Venkarel November 16, 2017 12:47 pm #

      A army with a Ynnari detachment can get CW stratagems if they have a CW detachment, they do not get CW warlord traits, a free relic, the Rites of War, or the CW attribute. And CPs have always been a shared pool.

      • Cavalier November 16, 2017 12:53 pm #

        You are a champion! Just to make sure I totally understand… I can webway in Ynnari Guardians, Wraithguard etc?

        • Venkarel November 16, 2017 1:01 pm #

          Yep, as long as you have a CW detachment in your army with your Ynnari detachment. Remember you can get a relic through the strat. and the “Objective Secured” rule can provide a Ynnari detachment with ob sec troops if constructed correctly.

          • Cavalier November 16, 2017 1:04 pm

            Fascinating. Thanks my man

          • Venkarel November 16, 2017 6:20 pm

            No worries.

  25. Nightman November 16, 2017 2:24 pm #

    The internal balance seems much better now. Ynnari are still very strong considering the point drops, strategems etc. Expecting them to still place high after this change. GW is really growing a pair when it comes to making changes.

  26. Ujayim November 16, 2017 3:13 pm #

    We shouldn’t ever argue the point of the strength of an army based on how “not fun” it feels, because that’s entirely subjective.

    Ynnari taking half a turn during your turn is the point people can use to justify things, but saying “it’s not fun” is a bad excuse for balance, because you don’t get to define fun.

  27. Venkarel November 16, 2017 3:29 pm #

    Wow there are going to be some shinanigans with that codex / index flowchart

    • Venkarel November 16, 2017 5:02 pm #

      Ahh the User Name bug is still going strong I see.

  28. zyekian November 16, 2017 3:45 pm #

    I get what Reece was saying I think, that Ynnari + CW codex point cuts = too strong. It makes sense to revamp Ynnari and I guess their codex must be pretty far out.

    I think twin nerfs was just too much though. Simply the nerf to allow one of each “type” of soul burst per turn would have been plenty to curtail excesses.

    Instead what we got makes SfD much more difficult to use and use effectively. It feels like a more minor power now, on par with craftworld “tactics”, but strictly worse than Alatioc.

    And that’s a shame. Because Ynnari had a fun, interactive play style. When I played them in the past my opponents always commented on how interesting it was to think of the consequences of killing a unit and how it changed the flow of the game. Now that’s gone for the most part. And I think 40k is worse off for it.

    Now I’m sort of scratching my head as to why Ynnari weren’t included in the Eldar book as a “sixth craftworld”. Hopefully they get a codex before too long with some unique and interesting stuff to differentiate them from their kin.

  29. zyekian November 16, 2017 3:48 pm #

    Probably goes without saying but until they get their codices with major improvements, Dark Eldar and Harlequins are likely completely extinct on a competitive level.

  30. zyekian November 16, 2017 4:12 pm #

    @Reece – The Yncarne’s points don’t make sense anymore. And the Visarch went from bad to the trash heap, and to a lesser extent Yvraine is diminished.

    Hopefully this is remedied in an FAQ or in Chapter Approved, ASAP. None of the Ynnari characters were buffed by the Craftworld codex but they suffered mightily for its publication.

  31. Schmuvness November 16, 2017 4:33 pm #

    Here in Germany and Europe Ymbari are and were a very popular choice for tournaments. Good players could not have been stopped when fielding Ymbari because the soulburst mechanics were so incredibly strong when utilized to their full extent. Playing vs. 6×3 Shining Spears + 6 Autarchs with Banshee Masks + Yncarne is just no fun.
    Therefore I very much welcome these changes to Ymbari.
    Although is still think and still hope for further changes, namely that Ymbari Units cannot utilize Asuryani Stratagems anymore as long as i include an Alaitoc detachment and that eldar vehicles dont get craftworld bonuses….Hemlocks and Serpents with -2 to hit is just absurd.

    Just my 2 cents

  32. CheeseyB November 16, 2017 4:35 pm #

    When Ynarri first arrived there was no reason to take Craftworld Eldar or Dark Eldar when you could have both and soul burst. Now there is a shiny new codex that is well crafted and competitive, it makes it more of a choice to play with traditional Eldar. I like reeling in a goofy mechanic that was an auto decision to take. Now we might see three different types of Eldar on the table instead of just Ynarri, especially when Chapter Approved drops.

  33. Brakhal November 16, 2017 5:02 pm #

    Now, to make things fair, AM orders should be chaged to be one of each per turn.

  34. Madwilly November 16, 2017 6:00 pm #

    I feel GW could have done better. This is two nerfs, not one. They should have picked one or the other, I think that would have been perfectly good.

    With what they did now Ynnari are dead in competitive play. That’s dumb.

    Maybe chapter approved has this coming but if Reece & company want to balance the game then you all out to take a nice long look at Astra Militarium and consider bringing them down to the level of the other codexes. Right now they’re above the rest with the exception of a few OP builds here and there (magnus, morty, celestine & Guilly).

    Kicking the crap out of Ynnari just makes the meta more monolithic toward just a few imperial builds.

    • Ryan November 17, 2017 1:02 pm #

      Lets see some results with the conscript/commisar nerfs in place before we destroy a facrion that prior to 8thedition was garbage for years.

  35. The Traitor November 16, 2017 11:26 pm #

    Oh yes I love this so much! The problem with ynnari was that soulburst was SO much better than CW abilities, now the choice is much tougher.

  36. Anggul November 17, 2017 3:35 am #

    Yaaaay, they fixed Autarchs!

    They can again have a variety of gear and still use the updated Path of Command etc.

  37. LordShart November 17, 2017 3:43 am #

    Wahhh! I want my Ynarri to stay OP!

  38. Blightstar November 17, 2017 4:32 am #

    Demo charges are back fuck yes! Eat 3d6 shots ha haa!

  39. Schmuvness November 17, 2017 5:06 am #

    Craftworld ELdar were already probably better than Ynnari.

    Now that Ynnari are beat down with two big nerfs, where does that leave them in the meta and relative to CWE?

    • Schmuvness November 19, 2017 6:15 am #

      Stop posting in my name!

  40. Ashen-Shygar November 17, 2017 7:28 am #

    Ordered the Triumvirate of Ynnead 3 days ago and now i understand i just wasted 60 euros.
    The figures are beautiful, but i needed them to make decent army to play us my friends and not to get stomped.
    I probably won`t waist the time to assemble and paint them.

    • Blight November 17, 2017 11:40 am #

      Who are these friends you play with that you need the most competitive tournament lists to play against?
      Why don’t they just tone it down to your level so you can have actually fun games?

      • Ashen-Shygar November 20, 2017 7:43 am #

        Maybe because i`m not happy that i spend 60 euro and 2 days after they changed the main reason i did that ?

  41. Shas’O November 17, 2017 8:56 am #

    @Reece: Dude, I do NOT envy you being the guy everyone freaks out to. You should start selling chicken little masks on the FLG store haha.

    @The rest of you: I’m going to do something crazy and try these changes out before I start yelling and screaming about them. Who knows, maybe Reece – as one of the few people who is actually had the chance to play test these things – could possibly be right?

    • Ryan November 17, 2017 1:06 pm #

      Reece is a great guy for the hobby with his upbeat personality but he can be too positive sometimes which can be in someways almost as bad as a toxic forum commentator.

      It is in his best interest as a business owner and huge tournament organizer to be always pro GW.

      • Reecius November 17, 2017 3:26 pm #

        Being positive can be as toxic as a crappy forum personality? That’s a bold statement.

        And I try to be positive because things are what they are, how we react to it is up to us. And, I know have the privilege of understanding the why of things in many cases, which makes me not as upset as I would have gotten when I was seeing things from the outside looking in and could only guess at GW’s motivations.

        But, thanks for saying I am great guy for the hobby, appreciate that.

        • C-Stock November 17, 2017 3:36 pm #

          You stopped being critical of GW when they deserve criticism. Now you guys seem 90% like a wing of GW…. walking on eggshells around issues in the game where GW deserves to hear that things are not okay.

          Of course I’m not privy to your internal conversations covered by some kind of NDA, so you’re probably raising red flags in private.

          • MidnightSun November 17, 2017 3:52 pm

            I think C-Stock has hit the nail on the head with this one. I greatly enjoy AbusePuppy’s reviews, always have done, because he’s willing to say that a garbage unit is garbage (or memorably, “worth less than the pixels used to display this sentence”) and is happy to call out GW for any poor decisions. GW is great, and it’s done a real 180 on position in the last two years and has gotten even more great, but there are still lots of things you can make valid criticisms of. Since 8th edition dropped, I don’t feel like I’ve seen half as much by way of quality review on FLG; lots of “This unit has these stats, costs this much and is an obvious choice for this stratagem; GW have hit it out of the park with this great unit, and here’s a link to our shop”. Not to say that FLG, as a whole, does great work (nobody would argue that the ITC isn’t a great achievement, and the video production quality is absolutely top-tier), but the written articles do feel like they’re being written under duress from GW.

          • AngryPanda November 17, 2017 6:42 pm

            The pressure from the power difference in this is probably deep-sea levels of choking and I absolutely think they entered it with the best intentions to help make a better game for everyone.
            With GW being as ham-fisted as they are the result still has a certain “Nintendo magazine, look all these games are great!” or “All hail the hypnotoad!” vibe.
            The difference to the old, very straight-forward and in-your-face style of this place is pretty jarring for me.

          • Jural November 17, 2017 6:44 pm

            The counterpoint may be that Reecius and AP are using different definitions of bad. AP is pretty consistent in defining bad as “points inefficient” or “not good for competitive play.” I think Reece tends to be more along the line of bad equals unplayable, as in including such a model in your army puts you at a competitive disadvantage in friendly games.

            And frankly, there are a ton fewer unfieldable units out there now, GW cleaned that up quite a bit.

            As someone who has a huge collection of Tyranids and would like to use my Tervigon, Toxicrene, Malcepter, Dimacheron, etc… I appreciate the focus Reece gives them, even while I’m prolly wouldn’t break them out at a multiple day event.

            Not every review should be parsed as- How to win LVO with this Dex.

  42. Laurence November 17, 2017 1:34 pm #

    As a long time Eldar/Ynnari player, I’m not that unhappy about this. Something needed to happen because sfd did always make my opponents salty.

    But there are PLENTY of equivalents on the chaos/imperium side that sap the fun out of games…where was the nerf bat for those factions?

    What is interesting is there is a big GT taking place this weekend in the UK, and half of the field is taking alaitoc/ynnari combos, and the TO has ruled that this FAQ will take effect. Will be interesting to see how they do. My prediction is that Ynnari is well and truly dead in the water, but as Reece said we need the data first

  43. Drake November 18, 2017 1:20 am #

    What I still don’t understand with this nerf, is why nerf an army that is not winning tournaments?

    Surely it makes more sense to send the nerf hammer at the army or two that are consistently winning tournaments and warping the meta.

    Ynarri was not winning anything and barely getting better than 50% win rates where they were being played.

    If we want a fun, balanced, competitive game then look at what is on top before you nerf those that are trying to climb up there.

    • Laurence November 18, 2017 1:36 am #

      As Reece said, gw don’t care about which armies are winning touraments, they care about what is fun.

      This was a fair nerf, just a spectacularly inconsistent one. Where is the nerf bat for the fun-killing imperium and chaos armies?

      • NeonKatt November 19, 2017 4:16 am #

        Might want to ask fireworks

  44. kontraktkiller November 18, 2017 6:54 am #

    ynnari still works. The vitriolic fits indicate which of us started playing eldar during 7th edition. You don’t get everything on a silver platter anymore. And whats more, ELDAR IS INCREDIBLY FUCKING POWERFUL. Belly aching over a nerf to a rule that in no way makes or breaks the faction isn’t doing anyone any favors. Go make a list that incorporates the strengths of ynnari AND the new cwe rules. Cheese and rice fellas….. Are we really going to sit here and act like Eldar don’t have what it takes to win tournaments??? for shame!!! lol.

  45. aurelius November 18, 2017 6:58 am #

    Shame. Shame. Shame. Shame.

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