Signals from the Frontline #506

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Show Notes

Date: 2-13-17

Intro

  • Follow us on Twitter, Facebook, Twitch, and YouTube!  Join our Forums, too! If you would like to be a guest on the show, email Reece at Contact@FrontlineGaming.org
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News

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  • Feedback forms for the LVO will be going out in the next day or two, please. Also, mark your calendars for the LVO 2018 which will be going down February 10th through the 12th! That is not Super Bowl Weekend for those to whom that is important.
  • We got a big response on the used terrain for TO’s, so please bear with us. It will be  afirst come, first served deal but we will respond to everyone even if just to say we already ran out of terrain.
  • The Horus Heresy Book 7: Inferno will be available this weekend. Get pumped!
  • Be sure to tune in to www.Twitch.TV/Twitch to see Geoff “InControl’s” new show: Fanboys. Reecius will be a guest on the show next Tuesday, the 21st, to geek out and talk nerd!

Upcoming ITC Events

We will be rolling out the ITC updates in the very near future. Please hang tight for a little while longer!

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Rumors: The Rumor Section is gathered from the web and is not in any way information we receive from  any manufacturer nor is it necessarily accurate. This section of the podcast is intended for entertainment purposes only.

  • Some awesome stuff on the way it seems for the gathering storm in relationship to the Eldar. With Ynnead joining the Eldar pantheon and seemingly breathing new hope into the Eldar race, things are certainly heating up.
  • Much like Cadia, Biel-Tan does not survive the coming conflict. From this fracturing of the Craftworld though, comes Yncarne, the Avatar of Ynnead.
  • All kinds of awesome Sub-factions on the way such as the venerated Ulthwe Black Guardians.
  • The new Eldar allow Aeldari to perform out of sequence move, shoot, run and charge actions using the power of recently defeated models.
  • Looks very cool and reminds us a lot of Age of Sigmar.
  • Of course, everyone has seen the images now floating around of Guilliman and Cypher…wow!

Rant Session

Tactics Corner

Rules Lawyer

Completed Commissions

List Review

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About Reecius

The fearless leader of the intrepid group of gamers gone retailers at Frontline Gaming!

67 Responses to “Signals from the Frontline #506”

  1. C-Stock February 13, 2017 11:51 am
    #

    I had fun at the LVO. Wish rounds were longer or points were lower, as I lost a match I should have won , as battle company in a game that only goes 3-4 rounds is completely broken. I was on pace to win easily and even my opponent said he won solely because of the time limit.

    Secondly the RTT day was a total clusterf%ck. Heaps of people didn’t show up, like three teams in my pod. Their opponents all got max points. One guy had a round two bye as well and for max points, then cruised to the $50 gift certificate win while only playing one game.

    Meanwhile a guy went 3-0 and took second place in that pod. Ridiculous.

    I played round one in my pod then the TOs combined pods since there were so many byes. Except they forgot to move me into a new pod and said “just play anyone and we will count it”. So I played a guy, beat him, and then the TO said they couldn’t register the outcome since we shouldn’t have played each other.

    When several people complained about the huge mess, the guy holding the iPad said “well I’m. It getting paid for this” and refused to fix anything.

    A large group of people ended up sitting around complaining that they shouldn’t have had to pay for an event that LVO staff clearly dropped the ball on and had to desire to fix.

    • Reecius
      Reecius February 13, 2017 12:05 pm
      #

      Thanks for the critical feedback. And it’s not that the team didn’t have the desire to fix the RTT issues (most of the heats went fine, it was a few that had issues that you noted), it’s that the TO couldn’t fix the issues as it was a combination of technical and practical.

      People signing up the day of (which we’d been asking folks not to do for weeks leading up to the event) and no-shows made it logistically very complicated, which I was afraid would happen. Instead of using the app–which tied our hands in many ways and limited what the TOs could actually do–was a bad call. We should have kept it simple to make it flexible enough to handle the legions of folks changing plans at the last minute. Next year it will function correctly.

      As for round times, we can’t go longer than 3 hours per round, that is just too crazy. Folks have to accept the fact that we have to go down in points. That is just the reality of where the game is at for organized play. For casual play, do whatever, but tournaments must go down to have completed games.

      • David February 13, 2017 12:33 pm
        #

        Without some sort of penalty for not completing games it will continue regardless of points. Slow play wins games. Draconian measures may be required to force the issue. I would recommend having the game count as a loss for both players if they don’t complete turn 5. If a player does it twice in the same event then it would count as a DQ.

        • Reecius
          Reecius February 13, 2017 1:15 pm
          #

          Sure, but in order to do that you have to determine who is actually slow-playing. We’d need Chess Clocks in order to do that.

          • Lochcrest February 13, 2017 3:28 pm
            #

            @Reecius You should absolutely implement chess clocks for at least the second day of your events. They are a very elegant solution to the slow playing epidemic that plagues top tier 40k right now. You would not have to drop points, 3 hours is more then enough time for a 1850 point tournament game.

            There is a very good post on dakka that lays out the foundation for using chess clocks in competitive 40k tournaments.

            https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/679969.page

            You should not stand by and let people exploit their way to victories at your events.

          • Reecius
            Reecius February 13, 2017 4:23 pm
            #

            So, this is a conversation that has been going for a long time. I will preface this by saying: I agree.

            Frankie and I have played with Chess clocks many times and the straight up work. They aren’t perfect but they really do show who is eating up the clock.

            Here are the problems:

            Who pays for the clock? In warmachine they expect the TO to provide the Chess clocks and that is EXPENSIVE over a big event. Like, it can be well over a thousand dollars. The players will throw a fit if you force them to buy a chess clock. They would get over it eventually, but you would certainly lose attendance, at lease in the short run.

            The other problem is: how do you enforce the penalty? In 40k, both players are active in a turn as you know. If a player loses the game for slow play as they do in Warmachine, then the other player is incentivized to take saves slowly, etc. in the other player’s turn as it can cause them to lose the game, or less severe: make it appear that they are taking a long time in their turns. It becomes very murky. It is not cut and dry as it is in Warmachine where only one player acts in a turn.

          • Lochcrest February 13, 2017 5:45 pm
            #

            Reecius I am glad to hear you are a fan.

            Cost:

            In bulk you can buy the clock I use:

            https://www.amazon.com/DGT1001-Universal-Chess-Clock-Timer/dp/B016CDBMN2/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1487035134&sr=8-1-fkmr1&keywords=chess+clock+dft+1001

            for under $10 dollars if it sells for $20 on amazon. I actually got mine for $15 with no shipping. So I wouldn’t call them expensive by any stretch.

            I would suggest doing the second day only at first or even give them away in your grab bag. Once implemented, very shortly everyone will have them and it wont be an issue again.

            “The other problem is: how do you enforce the penalty?”

            This is explained pretty clearly in the dakka post. You manage your own time and have the right but not the obligation to pass the clock when its not your action.

            When you try it, it actually works very smoothly and you only really pass the clock a few times a player turn at very most. The clock I use counts into negative time also, so the game just keeps on going no problem when one player runs out of time early.

            If a player runs out of time before the game ends naturally, they cannot do any voluntary actions only involuntary ones.

            Not only will clocks help your tournaments decide the true champion, one that cannot exploit time to win, it will also help the tournament run smoother. Games will almost never go over by very much time and all your rounds will start and end on schedule.

            The final thing that clocks are good for is that they expose players that are constantly having issues with rules and arguments or just being very unsporting. This is because their games will not finish exactly on time due to an abnormally high amount of clock pausing to get judges.

          • Keith February 13, 2017 6:05 pm
            #

            Loch rest, you realize that even at the “Bulk” rate, Frontline Gaming would have had to shell out $2000 for the 200 tables they had at the LVO? And what happens at the smaller Majors and GTs? Those TOs would have to shell out a few hundred dollars for their event…

          • Reecius
            Reecius February 14, 2017 10:19 am
            #

            Yeah, it’s a big issue with Warmachine, too. In that game, the players expect the TO to provide a clock and objective markers, too. It’s weird, and puts such a burden on the TO.

          • Lochcrest February 13, 2017 7:26 pm
            #

            @keith First off I don’t believe that FLG or any TO should be expected to provide them. Do you expect your TO’s to provide you with a tape measure, dice, templates, rule books or models when you go to a tournament? Once instituted players will be required to have them like they are required to have all these other items to play in a tournament. A TO could have one or two extra on hand just in case but I don’t really see it being necessary.

            What I was suggesting was that at a very minimum FLG could require them for their final day match ups. The cost of this even if its the top 32 (16 clocks) is insignificant. I don’t think it would be necessary however because all you have to do is say that clocks will be used for the final rounds and I guarantee you that all the top tier players will buy them to practice with. From there it will just spread naturally and the tournament scene will be in a much better place.

            Clocks are so affordable, they cost less then almost everything GW sells, that the cost argument is just not a valid argument.

          • abusepuppy February 13, 2017 11:46 pm
            #

            >Clocks are so affordable, they cost less then almost everything GW sells, that the cost argument is just not a valid argument.

            The difference is, it’s an additional cost that people feel they don’t have to pay and that isn’t required by the rules, hence they are going to be much more resistant.

            I mean, if I told you “Hey, you’re going to need to give me $15 if you want to play in the finals” you’d straight turn me down, yes? Not because $15 is a lot of money, or that you couldn’t afford it, or that it comes anywhere near the total amount you’ve spent on Warhammer anyways, but because you would probably feel that I had no right to that money and that it was just an arbitrary fee I was imposing on you. For many people, chess clocks feel like the same thing to them- an arbitrary fee.

          • Reecius
            Reecius February 14, 2017 10:16 am
            #

            Exactly. People get pissed about spending ANY money that isn’t models, lol. Army bags, accessories, ticket prices, etc. feel egregious to them but they’ll shell out the cash on their toys. It’s a weird psychological trick.

          • lochcrest February 14, 2017 5:50 am
            #

            “The difference is, it’s an additional cost that people feel they don’t have to pay and that isn’t required by the rules, hence they are going to be much more resistant.”

            If they were part of the official tournament rules then they are part of the rules. This argument isn’t valid.

            If you asked me for the $15 dollars (which you wouldn’t need to because I have several clocks) at the LVO finals and you said the reason was because it would make them completely fair in respects to time and guaranteed a true champion and not just the person who exploits the time rules best. Then I would happily give you $30 and buy you dinner after.

            It’s time to solve the slow play problem once and for all.

            Stop making excuses and start accepting solutions.

          • Reecius
            Reecius February 14, 2017 10:09 am
            #

            You’re oversimplifying things, my friend =)

            We can’t even get players to bring their rule-books for crying out loud, lol, let alone a chess clock. So what do you do if they don’t bring a clock? Kick them out? Some people humorously say yes to that, but when someone flew in from Europe to the event, that is not going to happen. Also, only 1 clock is required per two players.

            It’s not so simple in reality as it is on paper. I agree with many of your points but implementing things is not so easy and I assure you would not run smoothly at first as it does in your mind’s eye. In Warmachine the TO’s provide them and the players expect it, but it is a big expense and then you have to store them, etc. It’s a PITA.

            Ideally, we require the use of an app like BCP that tracks all of this on smart phones but that is still a little ways off.

          • lochcrest February 14, 2017 1:58 pm
            #

            @Reecius

            I tried phone base solution but my phone always dies. Through experience and play testing I have found that stand alone clocks work the best. As far as round time recording, what good does that really do? Are you going to go back and award wins? Are you going to extend games by massive amounts if an opponent takes 45 minutes for their first turn and 2 hours total in a 2.5 hour game? Round time recording does not make near as much sense as a game clock. This is because clocks are transparent, equal and can not be exploited.

            What I am suggesting is using clocks for the final day of your events for the first year. This would significantly minimize the issues.

            I am willing to do the following to help:

            1. Personally provide the clocks for the second day (finals) of your major events. This will eliminate the cost argument.

            2. Help you finalize a version of the base rules laid out on Dakka.

            3. Provide input and help on practice games that you play.

            We can take the conversation offline to go over the logistics.

            As for the issues of clocks for the entire field of a major GT. Honestly I think it will work itself out, but if you are worried about it you can make the rule like night fighting. If one player has a clock then you use it and if neither has a clock then they are not used.

            Clocks only help the honest player and ensure that game’s end naturally. If you implemented clocks with this rule, I am willing to bet a large amount of money that the vast majority of the games will be clocked without your involvement.

            Its undeniable that the current system is broken and people are exploiting time to control when the game ends and help them win. Clocks are a very elegant solution to this problem, that only and make the game better in almost every way without sacrificing anything.

      • Shas'Itsa Mari'o February 13, 2017 1:18 pm
        #

        I imagine a big part of the Sunday issues had to do with it being on Super Bowl Sunday. It’s one of the big 3 sporting events you want to be in Vegas for so I imagine a bunch of people jumped ship to watch that.

        Probably a good call bumping it back a week next year, I think you guys are heading off a lot of issues just by doing that.

        Had a blast that weekend though! Great time

        • Reecius
          Reecius February 13, 2017 1:48 pm
          #

          We didn’t have a choice on the weekend, actually. That was literally the only choice for the combination of factors we need. We’re now planning far enough in advance out that we can avoid some of the less desirable weekends.

          • Shas'Itsa Mari'o February 13, 2017 2:14 pm
            #

            Oh yeah, not putting that on y’all at all. I was actually pretty excited it was that weekend because of the Super Bowl. It definitely added an extra level of crazy though, but it is what it is.

            Looking forward to next year, hoping I can make it back!

          • Reecius
            Reecius February 13, 2017 4:19 pm
            #

            Yeah, no worries! We appreciate the feedback. And we hope to see you there next year, too!

      • C-Stock February 13, 2017 2:53 pm
        #

        My post sounded too negative. The overall experience was great and time/finances-permitting I will probably come back. The Main event was a lot of fun.

        And yeah, less points would be fantastic.

        • Reecius
          Reecius February 13, 2017 4:19 pm
          #

          No worries, it honestly helps to get the feedback! I can’t disagree with you, either. Some of the pods in the RTT were pretty messed up =(

    • GeekmasterK February 13, 2017 12:07 pm
      #

      I apologize for being one of the people to withdraw from the RTT. The problem was, I was incredibly burned out by day 3, to the point of not being able to focus. This was my first LVO, so I really didn’t think it through. Next time, I’m considering entering something different for the first two days, and then doing the RTT on Sunday, which will hopefully be better organized. I plan to get more tournament experience under my belt before attempting the championships again, due to how exhausting it was the first time. Six games of 40k over the course of two days is the most I’ve ever done, so I might need to do some endurance building at some point. Also hoping that 8th Edition cleans things up enough to make the games go a bit faster. I would say reduce the points, but with 8th supposed to be dropping this year, I’d say it’s probably best to wait and see if GW fixes the problem first.

      • Reecius
        Reecius February 13, 2017 1:17 pm
        #

        It’s all good, no reason to feel bad about it. I knew this might happen and should have been better prepared.

        But yes, the champs is a marathon. Believe it or not, but we used to play 8 rounds in 2 days back in 5th when the game was MUCH faster to play. Now that was just brutal.

  2. Dakkath February 13, 2017 12:42 pm
    #

    Oh great, Rowboat Girlyman’s coming back to make the ultrasmurfs the stars of the show again.

    • GeekmasterK February 13, 2017 12:48 pm
      #

      I’m mostly looking forward to seeing him chew out his own chapter for treating the Codex Astartes as strict rules. I’m not well-versed in Ultramarines fluff, but one thing I am aware of is that Guilliman intended the codex to be a set of guidelines, but knew that they couldn’t account for every situation. I’m just waiting for the epic facepalm and a “What the hell happened to my chapter?!” from Guilliman.

  3. Loofa4 February 13, 2017 1:47 pm
    #

    Some of this new Eldar stuff looks insanely powerful. Eldar that get to make out of sequence actions in addition to their normal actions seem extremely hard to beat. If these rumors are true, are there any plans to put some balancing up for a vote?

    • C-Stock February 13, 2017 2:52 pm
      #

      And Riptide Wing and Renegade artillery spam and scatbikes and War Con free points and Battle Company.

      • Loofa4 February 13, 2017 5:12 pm
        #

        All of those are powerful, but on the same level. You mention scattbikes; what do you think happens to the meta when scattbikes can deepstrike turn one without scattering? How about when they can shoot twice per turn? What about when warp spiders can pop a rhino and then get a free shooting attack at the unit that was inside?

    • abusepuppy February 13, 2017 5:22 pm
      #

      I’ll have a review up pretty soon of things, but short answer: yeah, it’s intensely strong.

      Is it stronger than the Split rule, Renegades getting 30pt T7 models, and all of the other garbage in the game? I dunno. Two years ago I would’ve said that something needed to be done about it; at this point, I’m not sure that fixing one problem out of a million is going to have any effect on the game as a whole.

    • Ytook February 13, 2017 6:05 pm
      #

      I think it’s worth remembering that while they can potentially shoot/move/charge twice and/or out of sequence it relies on a unit being completely destroyed very nearby (7″), I think people are assuming that everything’s going to be shooting and charging twice a turn when the reality is there’s a fair bit more finesse needed from the Ynari player to pull it off effectively, and counter play available to their opponent, at least from what I can see.

    • zigzagzen February 14, 2017 9:33 am
      #

      I think they lose their normal army specific rules to get the ‘power from death’ stuff (which means no battle focus, FNP, etc), at least that is what I heard

  4. Lochcrest February 13, 2017 3:29 pm
    #

    @Reecius You should absolutely implement chess clocks for at least the second day of your events. They are a very elegant solution to the slow playing epidemic that plagues top tier 40k right now. You would not have to drop points, 3 hours is more then enough time for a 1850 point tournament game.

    There is a very good post on dakka that lays out the foundation for using chess clocks in competitive 40k tournaments.

    https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/679969.page

    You should not stand by and let people exploit their way to victories at your events.

  5. C-Stock February 13, 2017 4:21 pm
    #

    No chess clocks except maybe at top tables. Just lower points.

    • Ryan February 13, 2017 6:16 pm
      #

      So we should just ignore the 2 votes against lowering points than? Timed turns is the only answer. There are a handful of armies that take up the lionshare of time, those people should be on notice to play faster or pick another army.

      • Reecius
        Reecius February 14, 2017 10:18 am
        #

        2 votes? What 2 votes? What vote, haha?

  6. Fxeni February 13, 2017 4:36 pm
    #

    Reece, I get the argument for less points, but why not wait for seeing how 8ed changes the game? It’s only a few months away. 1850 now might mean be a fast game in the new edition, or, if 8ed gets even more complicated, we might want to lower points even more dramatically then we currently think we should.

    I would bring this discussion back in a few months.

    • Dakkath February 13, 2017 8:49 pm
      #

      Mainly because nobody outside of GW knows when or if 8th ed will be coming out or what changes it will make. It’s an unknown variable with an unknown timeframe. Saying “just wait for 8th ed” is about as helpful as requiring players to make a bowl of spaghetti during their game.

      • abusepuppy February 13, 2017 11:48 pm
        #

        Yeah but internet man said that 8th edition would bring me infinite pony rainbows on my birthday, and internets never lie!

  7. Korulski February 13, 2017 6:33 pm
    #

    Reece, now I know why you’re so great. Dune is so freakin’ good. Since I was little child I remember quote from Dune on my mother’s desk. In our family it’s like SF scripture – to the point when we made it an obligatory reading for my brothers wife 🙂

    What could convince Frankie about the shields thing – there is this awesome duel in the first book, when the Fremen accuse Paul of mocking and toying their brother in a duel. (I don’t think it counts as a spoiler) It’s reallt well described, because Paul, fighting for his life desperately tries to overcome instinct of slowing enough to pass the shield at the end of the deathblow, which allows his opponent to dodge – and to the viewers it looks like arrogance and cruelty.

    Soooo goood.

    • Reecius
      Reecius February 14, 2017 10:18 am
      #

      I forgot about that scene! So good.

  8. Tfla803 February 14, 2017 4:25 am
    #

    Personally I prefer 1850, and that works for us in our local meta… with that being said, I definitely think you guys should make the decision to set the points level for the LVO, maybe even have a test run with the BAO.

    I don’t think that it 100% cures slow play, but I think it will help games finish more timely.

    • Reecius
      Reecius February 14, 2017 10:15 am
      #

      Precisely. It won’t solve EVERY instance of slow play, but it will move the average number of games completed dramatically forward.

  9. Ryan bridges February 14, 2017 5:00 am
    #

    Hey, curse fought sanguinius to a draw 😉

    • Reecius
      Reecius February 14, 2017 10:14 am
      #

      When was this? I am unfamiliar with that story, but am intrigued, now!

      • Ryan bridges February 16, 2017 6:58 pm
        #

        The book Pharos

  10. Grizzyzz February 14, 2017 5:19 am
    #

    Reece and Crew, I really hope you guys are patient on the new Ynnari book. TBH I do not think the new characters are as good as the imperium. And more importantly I do not think we have enough information to say the Reborn Warhost will break the game (auto win button).

    I would be extremely disappointed as a passionate Eldar player to see the hammer come down before things are felt out (i.e a vote simply on emotion).

    I know you guys will make the right choice! That said, there are definitely some things that I think will need to be added to your FAQ so that there are no debates. Here is a short list that we have compiled locally, and is our consensus… Hope it might lead to some of the questions in an inevitable but later vote!

    Q: Is soulburst still bound by normal rules restrictions (ex. charging from reserves or after running)?
    A: Yes, soulburst is an out of sequence action, but it states as if it was that phase. if you can not normally do the action that phase, then you may not choose this action as a soulburst, unless specifically stated, as in described in the shooting action.

    Q: Can soulburst be performed on each player turn?
    A: Yes, as per brb a turn is defined as a player turn unless specifically stated otherwise.

    Q: Can Ynnari be taken as a CAD or Allied detachment using the force org from the brb?
    A: No, it specifically states that the formations and Reborn Host specifically form the Ynnari faction.

    Q: If the same unit fires two different weapons forming two wound pools. Is soul burst resolved if they unit started within 7″ or is it resolved when the last wound pool was resolved and those models in the unit were within 7″?
    A: The latter, each wound pool is resolved independently. Don’t shoot yourself out of range! **NOTE: This was our consensus, it may not be the final answer

    Q: Within the formations and reborn warhost, it states the units gain the ynnari faction *in addition to* their own factions. Can an Aeldari faction X unit deploy inside Aeldari faction Y vehicle?
    A: No, the recent FAQ states that all Factions of a unit must be taken into account. Therefore, although they share the Ynnari Faction, the Other Aeldari subfactions still conflict and prevent this from happening. It is important to note that Yvraine and the Visarch are faction Ynnari. This implies that they may ride in any transports of any Aeldari Faction within Ynnari Detachments. Yvraine cannot ride in an Eldar faction transport that is part of another transport because of this same Faction conflict. **NOTE: super hot topic. Our interpretations, and something hopefully GW will FAQ in short time.

    • Reecius
      Reecius February 14, 2017 10:14 am
      #

      I haven’t even had a chance to read the thing yet, still playing catch up after the LVO, so no worries, haha!

  11. Arbite February 14, 2017 5:46 am
    #

    Trying to keep an open mind and listen to the discussion on games running out of time. My question is on lowering points.

    How does lowering points affect the players that are not taking the “Free” stuff armies? Does it make it harder for them to compete as they lose 350 points of stuff needed to combat the battle company, summoning, etc? Or is the same point differential just with less options for both?

    I tend to believe that it lowers the time needed to finish a round, at the cost of swinging the advantage to the “Free” stuff lists even more.

    • Reecius
      Reecius February 14, 2017 10:13 am
      #

      It impacts everyone equally. The free stuff armies still have more crap than everyone else. But that is going off into the weeds a bit, the question remains: how to get more games to finish on time?

  12. Greg February 14, 2017 5:48 am
    #

    When will the ITC relook at the Imperial Knights rulings? When will you bring them fully in line with the GW FAQ? Also as Knights are not overpowered when compared to other armies anymore, do you intend to review the scenario rules? It is almost impossible for Knights to win the maelstrom as designed while giving up a kill point every 3 hull points? Should everything give up a kill point after 3 hull points/wounds? That seems fair.

    Also I am not sold on the open voting on these items online. Folks will not vote against their own self interest. So if the item is good for someone else’s chances but hurts mine, people vote against it. Remember full democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on who is dinner.

    • abusepuppy February 14, 2017 6:19 am
      #

      >Folks will not vote against their own self interest

      This has been proven to not be true multitudes of times already- if it were, votes on Space Marines would always go in SM’s favor, but they demonstrably don’t. Ditto with the other factions- if everyone votes to drag down the other armies (so their own is more powerful), we should see WAY more votes going against the various Xenos races, but we don’t.

      • ryan February 14, 2017 8:48 am
        #

        what votes havnt gone space marines way?

        • ryan February 14, 2017 9:16 am
          #

          for example, we can clearly state that the ban on multiple GMC only effects eldar right? multiple surges are allowed, multiple imperial knights are allowed. Who else does the range D nerf hurt the most, again eldar. Thats 2 votes against a xenos race off the top of my head.

          I can think of one vote that went eldar way to be fair, the scat bike vote. And as we can see with the LVO results, scat bikes are not dominating the tournament scene and would have been a disgrace to ban.

          • Reecius
            Reecius February 14, 2017 10:06 am
            #

            A disgrace to ban Scat Packs, lol? OK, you clearly have strong feelings which is fine, but a disgrace? It is still the most under-costed unit out there, still one of the most reviled units in the game, and still causes a lot of hurt feelings. Pointing at top tables proves only what is hapenning at top tables. Take a look at the majority of tables and you will see legions of Scat packs. Plus, we voted with what information we had at the time, hindsight is 20/20 and all that. You are seeing some of the votes that were intended to impact everyone as picking on your faction–which I understand–but I assure you that is not the case. No one is “out to get” Eldar or whatever. I love Eldar, personally, one of my all time favorite armies.

      • Greg February 14, 2017 5:50 pm
        #

        Assumes facts not in evidence. Your statement would require there to be more space marine players than every other army combined.

    • Reecius
      Reecius February 14, 2017 10:12 am
      #

      People do vote against their faction interests, factually. I have seen how people vote and time and again, folks vote with what they think is fair. Not everyone, not always, but often enough that the idea that everyone votes to screw everyone else is simply false.

      And Knights do not win Maelstrom very well, no. But they already have a lot of rules bent or broken to accommodate them. Without allowing them to bleed KP, they’d almost never lose that mission, which isn’t fair to everyone else. I think where we are at now strikes a good balance.

      • Greg February 14, 2017 6:00 pm
        #

        Ok fair for everyone is important, I guess.

        But how about everyone giving up a kill point after three wounds/ hull points. That seems equal, affects all the armies evenly. The mystical fair achieved?

        I was also talking about the special rulings on stomps and other limitations applied to Knights in the effort to even them up with past meta. Are they still needed?

        Or are all past rulings engraved in stone and unchangable?

  13. Shas'Itsa Mari'o February 14, 2017 6:58 am
    #

    Reece/Frankie, I know y’all mentioned a few new mission formats (NOVA and Renegade), have you looked at the Warzone Atlanta missions? It’s a different base scoring (33 possible points) but it’s all based off progressive differential for primary so there’s a better chance to score points throughout but it’s much harder to max out a score. In my experience, it keeps the game more competitive throughout. I’m sure it wouldn’t take much to modify it down to the new 18 point scoring system.

    Just throwing it out there, it’s started to catch on here in the South over the last year.

    • Reecius
      Reecius February 14, 2017 5:09 pm
      #

      We’re always open to bringing on new and awesome missions! I have not had a chance to play those yet, but am very much willing to do so.

  14. Iago February 14, 2017 7:02 am
    #

    Dammit, missed the live show. Anyway, maybe someone can help me with this. Since Cawl is a thing nowadays people are wondering if his Canticles of the Archmagos are an addition to the Canticles of the Omnissiah or are basically independent from them. What i mean is, can a Cult Mechanicus Force use a Canticle of the Archmagos AND a Canticle of the Omnissiah in the same turn or do they have to choose one of the Canticles? For me its pretty clear that one can use both, but I have been wrong before so…what is the ITC call on that one?

  15. GeekmasterK February 14, 2017 11:41 am
    #

    @Reecius, Is there an ITC vote, or at least an interim ruling in the near future for Fall of Cadia and Fracture of Biel-Tan? I don’t have the latter book in my hands yet, but with my Craftworld Eldar getting yet another buff they didn’t need (though seeing Dark Eldar and Harlequins getting attention makes me happy), I’m wondering how the ITC will handle it. No rush or anything, but I’m considering adjusting my list a bit for what could be a shift in the meta for Eldar. However, I plan to hold off on the adjustment until an ITC vote/ruling, due to the possibility that something might not work 100 percent the way it does in the book.

    Again, no pressure on you guys. I just want to be informed before buying any new models for list adjustments.

    • Reecius
      Reecius February 14, 2017 5:10 pm
      #

      I’m working with the staff now on all of that, trying to get up to speed, myself, actually.

  16. Venkarel February 14, 2017 7:31 pm
    #

    LVO was a blast most of my games were excellent It was my third year and it has been a privilege to watch the event grow and grow. Here are some of my thoughts regarding tourney. Consider all of them constructive criticism. As for the time required to enact some of my points I can help out about 5 hours a week if needed. Just to let you know, I am planning on coming back again next year and think LVO is the premier singles event in the U.S.

    BCP APP
    1. Judge button on app. That way judges can be summoned to a specific table.
    2. Chess clock in app that keeps history of when player pushes the pass priority button. Also should include a total time use tracker (count up or down) as well as time since last priority pass.
    3. Push notifications in app (they are working on this?)
    a. Not just push pairings and tables but tournament announcements as well, it was very hard to understand the P.A. system, the room is just so noisy (form a bazillion people wargaming).
    4. Lists should be uploaded to the app in X,Y,Z formats only. Battlescribe is free. If a list is not in the format, some penalty like lose the two last rounds of bonus points you earned are lost, to be scored after the swiss rounds. This should disproportionately affect the top tables which is where the needs to be enforced the most.

    TOURNAMENT RULES (the rules regarding play at a tournament) AND TOURNAMENT FLOOR RULES (how you should act and behave at a tournament)
    1. Consider different enforcement levels. See MTG, this means the rule set tightens up as the size and competiveness of the tournament increases.
    2. Include simple things like what you are required to bring to each game. Separate your dice failures and confirm with your opponent before proceeding. Roll your dice where both players can see. Codify what the size of an objective is, an escape hatch, a portiglyph, etc. Measure from the edge or center? Does it matter as long as consistent? Etc.
    3. Complex things like who is responsible for what game states. Are we both responsible for must triggers, may triggers, phase actions that are compulsory? When do you back up and correct it? How are multiple triggers resolved? When triggers are officially created (not so simple see Ynnari)? When to resolve affects of actions (when they create subactions or triggers mid action)?
    4. Address modeling for advantage and proxies. Sean Nayden’s models on your top 8 stream were just dumb. I use abundant proxies and conversions but they fit the fluff and are the same size or larger than the original model and all but one are on legal bases (the last is on treads that are roughly the correct size).
    5. Address score corrections, how long do you have? Can you even do it? What if new information comes to light?
    6. Address time and time management. Give a rough outline of what pace games should proceed. Give a quick rundown of the chess clock in the BCP app and the etiquette while using it, announce when you pass, when are you supposed to pass, when do you remind the opponent he is on the clock? Etc. Chess player would have a better grasp than me. The clock will not be required unless both players agree to its use (have a button you press on the app before the game starts). Define what happens when you run out of time, cannot make any voluntary actions but can you still do required actions, do you lose?
    7. As for a solution to slow play a suggestion is to use points awarded for slow play (per round) if you accumulate a certain number of points at the end of swiss a penalty is assessed. For example, 20 total slow play points (SLP) means a player loses 10% of total score after swiss rounds. SLP’s are scored as follows, 3 for not natural conclusion turn 5, 6 for round 4 game, 10 for round 3 game. That way do not penalize a person for 2 four round games or even a three and a four. This system can be adjusted to fit almost any desired outcome. For example, if I played six games, I was tabled (natural conclusion), an opponent conceded (natural conclusion) 1 went to turn 3, 1 went to turn 4, 1 went to turn 5 (not natural), and 1 went to turn 5 (natural conclusion). I would have 10+6+3 or 19 points and not lose any of my total score after swiss. If the natural turn 5 was not a natural conclusion (forced to stop b/c of time) I would have 22 points (10+6+3+3) and lose 10% of my total score.
    8. For LVO or larger tournaments, have a day two cut. After the first day those that can mathematically make a top 8 continue playing the normal round structure. The rest are chopped into brackets. Bracket winners are given laurels and prizes. You can scale the prize to place meaning even the bottom bracket wins something but the top brackets could win more. That way everyone has something to play for.
    9. When are consequence and punishments issued? What happens for multiple infractions? Warnings? Bannings? Suspensions (from X future ITC events)? What happens for multiple warnings? How to deal with threatening behavior?
    10. Change the culture to make calling a judge the correct way to resolve any issue you and your opponent cannot agree upon. Take a max of X (3-5) minutes between the two players to resolve the issue, if not resolved then call a judge!
    11. We need a way to resolve model placement issues. I have seen on multiple occasion at the top tournaments in the country people move models illegally, come up with a reasonable explanation (even as simple as my opponent is wrong I moved them to the present location last turn), have a judge called, stick to their story through all questioning, because the judge was not present at the time of the infraction the only fair in game way of resolving the issue is a roll off. This turns and illegal play into a 50/50 bet without repercussion. I do not know how to handle this exactly but needs to be considered.

    OTHER SUGGESTIONS
    FAQ clarification caused confusion in three of my games. Next time provide a list of what is allowed or disallowed FAQ wise (one or the other, I would go for what is allowed). I had an opponent who thought all Codex FAQs where disallowed, another thought we were not using any of the new FAQ including the official GW BRB FAQ, which was legal. I cannot remember what the last problem was.

    All rules clarifications should be included as another tab in the FAQ. This should include all email and Facebook clarifications.

    ITC accounts for each player. An individual account to track players seems like BCP is doing this.

    Some of us don’t use Facebook.

    Vegas was crazy expensive. Downtown was a bit better but holy sh&%*()

  17. Hiveminded February 14, 2017 7:35 pm
    #

    The 40k championships was lots of fun. I was impressed at how well it was run. And the tables looked great. Kudos to the FLG team for putting on a great show. Nice job guys!

    The Sunday RTT was a giant cluster f***. Let me share my Sunday RTT experience:

    Round 1: Only 4 people showed up to play in our bracket. Me and my opponent play our game, the other two guys decide to not play their game. I win my game by a score of like 9-2.

    Round 2: They add four additonal people to our bracket, none of which played a round one game because they were late. So the TOs give the four new people and the two people who skipped their round 1 game max points for round one. In round two, I get paired against the person who I just played in round one because we had the two lowest scores (everyone else was automatically given max points for the first round). We spend 30 minutes to wait in line to talk to a TO. By the time they figure out what’s going on, all the other games in the bracket had started. We discuss the situation with the TO and he decides to give myelf and my opponent a bye and max points in round two since we had already played each other in round 1. Not a great outcome, but I appreciate that the TO was really trying his best to make things right.

    Round 3: Four of the guys decide not to play their game, so there are only four players left. I’m paired on the “top table” against a player who won his round two game. I win the game and am feeling pretty good that I managed to pull out a tough victory against a good opponent. I won the top table match and finished undefeated so assumed I had won the bracket (yay!).

    I then find out that the TOs gave the people who voluntarily skipped round three max points. Before my round three game was even finished, they had awarded the first place ITC points and bracket prize to a guy who chose not to play in round three and who had only played a total of one game (he won his only game 11-1 and he got max points on the two games he skipped so finished with the max of 33 points).

    Yeah, it’s just a game. Yeah, I know it was chaotic and difficult to manage. But I spent over $1k to fly to Vegas for a tournament. The 40k champs was great, but I also paid money and skipped watching the super bowl to play in a Sunday RTT that, in the end, was run far less efficiently (and had worse prize support) than a local RTT that I could have entered for ten bucks. The Sunday RTT was very dissapointing.

  18. Lochcrest February 15, 2017 11:06 am
    #

    @Reecius Did you see my proposal above?

    I want to make sure you didn’t miss it in such a long thread. Also we can take the conversation offline if you prefer.

  19. Demofool February 16, 2017 1:50 pm
    #

    I attended the 40K championships and thought that is was a well run and well organized tourney. All in all I had six of the best most competitive games I have ever played. All my opponents were amazing and fun to play. If I could give any feedback it would be that it FREAKING ROCKED! I came to Vegas played with your little soldiers and drink WAY TO MUCH. I look forward to traveling the circuit again this year and the LVO being the high point of the year. Thank you to the people at FLG that are able to make this happen!
    JT