Signals from the Frontline #487: Wrath of Magnus Discussion!

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Date: 11-28-16

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  • Wrath of Magnus Discussion.

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December 2016

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43 Responses to “Signals from the Frontline #487: Wrath of Magnus Discussion!”

  1. NovaStar November 28, 2016 11:08 am #

    There better be a real rant session, I missy those salty soliloquies

    • Reecius
      Reecius November 28, 2016 12:09 pm #

      Lol, not this week =)

  2. Ytook November 28, 2016 12:17 pm #

    WH Community site has confirmed that the Traitor Legions book is indeed chapter tactics style rules, artefacts, warlord traits and detachments for all 9 traitor legions ^..^

    https://www.warhammer-community.com/2016/11/28/the-eye-opens-and-the-legions-return/

    • Reecius
      Reecius November 28, 2016 12:26 pm #

      Sweeeeeeet!

    • 1PlusArmour November 28, 2016 1:56 pm #

      My pants are feeling a bit tight right now…

    • Fagerlund November 28, 2016 2:13 pm #

      I also notice they gave us an official name for “Decurion”; Detachment of Formations. Funnily the name I was using too, guess they were as un-creative. 😛
      Still like the Combi-Detachment name though!

      • Reecius
        Reecius November 28, 2016 4:24 pm #

        Hey, better late than never!

      • Troy Graber November 28, 2016 8:02 pm #

        I preferred calling them “Warhost” detachments, but it never seemed to catch on.

        “Detachment of Formations” is a bit unwieldy. I think I’ll call them “DoF”, or “DuF” because that sounds better.

        • abusepuppy November 29, 2016 8:37 am #

          Can’t get enough of that wonderful Duff!(TM)

        • Dakkath November 29, 2016 9:48 pm #

          I was pushing for MFD, for Multi-Formation Detachment.

      • AngryPanda November 28, 2016 8:28 pm #

        It should have been Voltron Formations. Life is a little more sad now.

  3. Heldericht November 28, 2016 2:22 pm #

    Lol, the “Pablo…” at the end.

    I hope we get to vote on maybe having the horrors not come back when the entire unit is eliminated in one phase. It seems way too strong a rule and will quickly become unmanageable for most armies to deal with, especially on the mid tables.

    • Reecius
      Reecius November 28, 2016 2:46 pm #

      Yeah, it is pretty ridiculous.

    • Jasonwolfe November 28, 2016 3:42 pm #

      Even it is somehow balanced in terms of strength, the split spam from a 9 blue horror list will destroy any hope for a 2.5 hour game. There will never be a turn 4 if there are 9 blue horror units on the board period. In a high speed tournament setting this list will be a real unfortunate opponent from a game management perspective. Every split will have some measuring and gamesmanship of trying to sqeeze out that extra pink horror unit for another warp charge. Not to mention the unbelievable number of actual models on the board that will have to be moved.

      • Sanchezsam2 November 28, 2016 4:31 pm #

        Don’t most high model count army lists kill off themselves tournament wise anyway. The fact a horror list won’t be able to finish in 2.5 hours means the list itself is usually self defeating in tournaments.

        Anyway although I think the horror list is strong and spammy I don’t think it’s broken yet. However if it does become a real problem the best fix imho is making the splits instant spawn not the end of phase. This will nueter the only worthwhile part of the horror list objective camping.

        Regardless gw already gave us the perfect counter to this new demon list, Hello sisters of silence!!!

        • Adam
          Adam (RUMBL) November 28, 2016 4:36 pm #

          Ending on turn 3-4 works well enough for Eldar spider spam! 😛

        • tag8833 November 28, 2016 8:10 pm #

          I’ve known players that do quite well by building lists that intentionally try to run out the clock on turn 3 or 4. I don’t much care for that style, but until and unless we punish that tactic, or fix the size and complexity of games it’s going to continue being a problem.

          Renegades in particular with their abundance of psychic powers, high model count, and blast weapons tend to abuse the clock somewhat.

          Gladius generally is also heavily incentivized to slow play because they get weaker as the game goes on.

          • Sanchezsam2 November 28, 2016 9:22 pm
            #

            It seems to me a summoning list such as a horror list doesn’t want a slow game because they do better the further along the game goes as they can out survive most lists by creating more units. The idea of a horror list to me seems very self defeating. You have a ton of cheap shooty psychic units that take forever to play and it will simply drown out the clock with movement, shooting, and psychic phases which isn’t necessarily what a horror list wants to do. To be honest I’d like to see some timed tourney style game first before we start changing nerf. Especially since the only real fix for this unit is changing the spawn mechanic into instant spawn instead of end of phase.

          • Sanchezsam2 November 28, 2016 9:29 pm
            #

            Unlike a summoning list a gladius wants a slow play as they start off with a bunch of free obj secured units and slowly fall to attrition. It’s a completely different play style. Horror list is more swarm style (not spammy like warp spider) but unlike most swarm lists like greentide and gladius horror spam gets stronger with more time. It’s going to be hard to manage the clock in a tournament and I don’t forsee it being fun to play against and probably not that fun to play with in general.

    • Ytook November 29, 2016 4:36 am #

      One thing that’s worth noting is they don’t have daemonology any more, only the Tzeentch lore, so their own psychic ability is relegated to witchfires now basically.

      Of course they’re still warp charge batteries, that can spam out new units on death so not suitable for comp really (but that rule would make for some fun narrative scenarios).

  4. Jon November 28, 2016 10:44 pm #

    Why not just make that when the horrors split that stay in the same unit they originally came from and form a mixed unit, so no extra warp charges or units being made for an army that can summon already but players can still use the new rules to effect, and even though the unit gets bigger instability would keep in effect to keep it from just being the ultimate tar pit and would have a incentive for players to make the squads bigger.

    • Cj November 29, 2016 12:47 am #

      This makes the most sense to me. It could work in a similar way to necrons.

    • Venkarel November 29, 2016 9:14 am #

      They do have Daemonology unless the FAQ addressed this and I missed it. Per BRB pg 28 right hand column at the top in bold, “Unless otherwise stated, all Psykers, other than those belonging to the Tyranids faction (pg 118) can generate powers from the Daemonology discipline (pg 194). The Daemonology discipline has not one, but two different powers….” For example, we know space marines can summon demons and use Sanctic powers but Daemonology is not listed on their datasheets.

      As for Eldar, Craftworld Eldar specifically limits all the Psykers (Eldrad, Farseer, Warlock, Spirtseer) to Daemonology (Sanctic) so they are prohibited from casting Malefic.

  5. Alex R November 28, 2016 11:49 pm #

    i think we will be fine for horrors until the models actually come out, so it will remain on the niche for now

  6. Iago November 29, 2016 1:20 am #

    Good god…where the hell would someone get that amount of models? 😀 I mean pink horrors, blue horrors, brimstones…geez thats a lot of stuff…and money to spend.

  7. pascalnz November 29, 2016 3:48 am #

    to make killing the horrors a bit easier, you can shoot the unit, have them spawn then multi assault the blues and the pinks. with the feebleness of the blues /brimstones, you could easily wipe all the units through instability.

    Assault should wreck them… surely?

  8. Cephalobeard November 29, 2016 7:16 am #

    I’ll voice an unpopular devils advocate opinion, and I’m sure people will chew on me for it.

    I don’t think the knejerk reaction to new things, or wacky rules should always be to Ban them. I feel like a large amount of things (Arguably most for good.) are altered by ITC rulings.

    The splitting doesn’t make you instantly win. Daemons can already play and summon hundreds of points in horrors.

    Allow it. Every unit has to be based, painted by ITC Standards. Use turn counters. Have it start at the beginning of the game, including rolling for their powers etc. If it takes them an hour to set up all their units, obtain all their spells, etc, then too bad. Let the army kill itself.

  9. Toranaga November 29, 2016 8:22 am #

    You are seriously advocating for judging these horrors so harshly before the Fenris book is even released to the public?

    A shaky, emotional, unproven, and knee-jerk position at best.

    If I may elaborate, I think that if Pink Horrors can no longer access the daemonology tree, they don’t get any better than they used to be, rather their role is more restricted to a quirky yet fun rule that you have to admit, is totally unique in the game and completely changes the landscape of the board in a transformatively disruptive way. I like it. It gives tzeentch a more unique play style and challenges opponents to come up with new ways to play around it that doesn’t fall within the instinctual and one dimensional “I shoot you, I chop you, you die” paradigm that 40k is in right now.

    To clarify, loosing the ability to summon, incursion, possess, or use cursed earth is a big deal. Horrors used to be the most flexible troop choice in the game, being able to conjure whatever tool is needed for the job. For example, if you managed to get cursed earth, the aura cast from a large unit spread out is enough to buff your whole army or pinpoint deep strike reinforcements. The ability to morph into a greater daemon, or summon another Tzeentch herald with paradox staff (for more guranteed summoning), or herald of nurgle with doomsday bell (for army-wide -1 LD for the opponent) could be decisive. Now you have to rely on fateweaver and the like to cast these powers, and he should be spending his warp charge on offense. Horrors can only really multiply now. They’re still useless in shooting and combat, and the prospect of more psychic dice is diminishing returns. Seriously, how often do you see daemon players spending warp charge to use horrors for witchfires? They’re just not that effective compared to the big cats like Fateweaver or a daemon prince.

    In short, the split shoehorns horrors into objective campers and warp dice farms. They’re very good at this, but opponents will find ways to deal with it, such as ignoring them completely, or focusing down one unit at a time, multi-assaulting newly created units, and making them die from daemonic instability. Kill point missions are a huge disadvantage to them.

    Besides, who has the models? Who would come to a tournament just to troll with hundreds of horrors? I don’t think this is a big issue at all, far less disruptive than SM battle company, free AM wargear, warp spiders and scatpacks. We all got over those. This is one of the most characterful rules to make a comeback in 40k. Tzeentch changes the destructive force of violence against horrors into a creative one. I think it’s awesome. Yes it changes the meta, yes change is a good thing. Half of the fun of this game is coming up with new combos and learning how to defeat them. Is it too much to ask tournament players for an open mind when it comes to new rules?

    • Cephalobeard November 29, 2016 8:52 am #

      That’s the thing that gets me.

      Taudar? Fine.
      Scatpacks? Fine.
      Battle company, Warconvocation free points? Fine.
      Death Stars? Fine.

      A PINK HORROR CAN SPLIT? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

      Calm down, everyone.

      • xthexclincherx November 29, 2016 1:20 pm #

        Yeah, I think that it will be tough, but think about all the other things that are banned in the base-line ITC based on how people have voted… Space Marines can’t put an upgrade they have to pay for on their superheavies that ignore cover, yet an entire tau army can…. deathstars can be formed a dozen different ways, yet full strength D is not allowed (with no look-outs, etc.)… battle company gets tons of free stuff, yet horrors can’t split…

        I think we are approaching the point in 40k where everything needs to go back to “rules as written”, then apply the official FAQs/Errata, then finally vote on the few odd things… but please people, remember that we have to PLAY with this stuff to really understand what it means to have a ban on something that could be the core “fun factor” in someone’s army…

        We may have to realize that it is really likely every army has “bad matchups”, and if we just allow everything, we may be closer to how the game is meant to be played…

        Just a thought. We’ve taken this approach locally and it has actually made things better.

        • xthexclincherx November 29, 2016 1:23 pm #

          Also, I know the first rule of ITC is “you can change the rules”, etc. but please remember everyone that a LOT of local scenes revolve around a FLGS that just uses the ITC rules “as they are” out of convenience… so for players that don’t have TO’s modifying this stuff, and just have local store owners that hold events, we have to be careful.

    • Adam Vollrath November 29, 2016 9:58 am #

      > You are seriously advocating for judging these horrors so harshly before the Fenris book is even released to the public?

      Yes.

  10. zyekian November 29, 2016 8:51 am #

    I think people not having the models isn’t a strong argument because people will get them.

    I think the issue of playability in tournament formats is a very practical, real one.

  11. Daniil Osudin November 29, 2016 10:04 am #

    Having calmed down from the initial reaction from reading the new horrors rule, i think they are not so broken as it might seem at first. (really good, yes, but there are things that are better)

    For starters, i do think that they lost the access to malefic daemonology and that is key to them being fine as is. That is because while yes, they are exceptionally durable, they will only be able to hold objectives and provide warp charges. True they are going to do that much better than before, but there are ways around it:
    If you are careful at killing them, they will not get many more warp charges than they started with, for example a daemon player starts with a squad of 11 horrors as usual, then you kill all 11, he gets 22 (or 44 with the locus) blue horrors. They still generate 2 WC, so no more. In the worst case you kill almost all pink horrors and he generates 3 WC, only 1 more than started with..
    As for objective camping, only the original unit gets the detachment benefits (corrupting the objective or objective secured), once that unit is gone, the blue horrors won’t be able to do a lot to stop your ob sec units from scoring the objective.

    These are just a couple of examples, I’m sure that in about half a year no one will be that bothered by a split rule. Same thing will happen to it that happened to summoning factory lists that people were freaking out when 7th edition just came out. Cut to now, even the daemon armies summon 1-2 units per turn maximum, as otherwise it is quite impractical and has diminishing returns. I think the same will happen to horrors.
    (not to mention carrying around 100 extra horrors in addition to the units you can summon is not going to be practical at tournaments at all)

    I don’t think that split rule is more game breaking as a lot of people fear it is. Certainly there are things that are more broken in 40k right now. And having a unit that breaks the i have better shooting, i win style of play is a good thing IMO.

  12. Eaux November 29, 2016 1:06 pm #

    We have a sub-300 pt gargantuan creature in the game, Grav with rerollable everything, Free points en masse for Battle Company, Unlimited free upgrades for War Convocation, units of riptides, UNITS of Gargantuan creatures!

    This is what does it, though? A 20 model squad of horrors generates 3 wc. Kill the entire squad, the WC reduces to 1. You’ve still accomplished a goal. Horrors are infantry, not on eldar jetbikes or Bikes that have the speed to move around the board. Why was there no push for increasing the points for Wraithknights from tournament organizers? Why is THIS the line you’re not willing to cross and want to actively fight against?

    • Cephalobeard November 29, 2016 1:34 pm #

      Preach.

    • Brutishcard November 30, 2016 6:10 am #

      I think at MOST we should consider having them spawn instantly, and only then after we’ve actually playtested it. This is a great and fluffy rule.

  13. Hortob November 29, 2016 2:33 pm #

    About the horrors: I think it is too early to be talking about banning the split rule. We need to play with it first. I also think that the loss of daemonology is a very big deal and does make horrors weaker from an offensive point of view IMO.

  14. zero-charisma November 29, 2016 4:29 pm #

    These horrors sound horrible.

  15. winterman November 29, 2016 6:18 pm #

    So is the split rule stated on the pink horrors datasheet or is it a rule for blue and brimstones? I ask because doesn’t that potentially imply you would need blue and brimstones in your army list in order to benefit from the split rule they have?

  16. Travis Kirke November 29, 2016 10:14 pm #

    For one, I don’t think pink horrors lost demonology. It was never printed on their sheet in the first place: from the GW FAQ they still have it.

    As a daemons player, I think this is bonkers. In the worst case scenario for the daemons player, the 11 horrors unit now has 55(77) wounds. But that’s not all.

    * all of these units operate at full effectiveness regardless of how many models there ate. 1 brimstone horror = 1 pink horror = 10 pink horrors 90% of the time, because they’re only there for warp charges.

    * horrors are quite difficult to wipe out in a single phase. If 10 go to ground in ruins, you need to put 50 wounds on them. Even in combat, pink horrors survive against most units due to their saves. I’d estimate that if you’re trying to kill pink horrors, they’ll spawn 3 units of blues before they die.

    * the new units spawn after you can do anything to them, in a position most advantageous to the owner. If you try to shoot then assault a unit, you just gave the daemon player a free roadblock!

    * the more you kill, the better the daemon psychic phase becomes, in a snowballing effect

    * it’s just going to eat up a lot of time and effort to wipe them out. Best case scenario it takes 2 units 2 turns to kill them off completely, and that’s only if you can wipe the pinks out in shooting, then wipe the blues out in assault, then wipe the brimstone out the next turn. Add extra turns if you can’t 100% kill them. All the while, the horror squad is operating at full or even increased effectiveness..

    In my mind, so long as your opponent is trying to hurt the horrors,this is a buff that is worth far more than just the points of models it summons, because you can potentially do it multiple times and get a boat load of warp charges and objective holders. And you don’t need to design your army around it: it applies to fairly well every daemons player who runs two minimum units of pinks, or who can swap in 50 points of blues for the 45 pt Nurglings base.

  17. Glocknall November 30, 2016 4:29 am #

    So it’s interesting to note that the actual wording for which disciplines Pink Horrors can generate from has not changed a single letter from the ’14 codex. In my digital Daemonic incursion codex the wording for all other psyker units has been changed to include Malefiic Daemonlogy. So we have a situation where the rulebook FAQ takes precedence and Horrors get Malefic, or the strict RAW is used and in that case we have been playing horrors wrong since at least curse of the Wulfen part one.

  18. Nightman November 30, 2016 6:59 am #

    Van Damme should be the only one doing splits.

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