Rules Debate! Scouting Vehicles and First Turn Assaults.

rules-2

Looks like we have another 40k rules issue being hotly debated over the internet regarding the Eldar Corsair Venom.

In the newest Imperial Armor, IA11, the Eldar Corsairs have access to a Venom with the Scout special rule.  Players are now trying to determine if this means that the occupants of the Venoms can assault turn 1 since it is the transport’s Scout special rule and not the occupant’s.  As far as I can tell this is the first time we’ve had a vehicle with the Scout special rule also happen to be an open-topped transport that does not specifically say that the occupants cannot assault turn 1 (Ork Blitz Brigade Formation). But as the unit inside is benefiting from the Scout move, do they count as such? A unit with Scouts confers it onto the dedicated transport, should it also work in reverse?

Here’s the facts:

Scout (brb. 171) – A unit that makes a Scout redeployment cannot charge in the first game turn.

Dedicated Transport (brb. 120) – Dedicated transports do not use up a slot in the Force Organization Chart but for all other rules purposes count as having the same Battlefield Role and Faction (if any) as the unit they were bought for.

A unit in a Venom will have a very decent reach on the battlefield (deploy 12″+ 12″ Scout move + 6″ move + 6″ disembark + 2d6 charge).  There are now several units that allow first turn assault moves, so in the grand scheme of things is it too far out there for GW to intend for first turn assaulting by the Corsairs?  I can see this as being pretty situational and all it takes is a roll of a 6 to seize the initiative and the paper thin Raiders are out in the open.

So what do you think? Does the unit inside count as Scouting in addition to the vehicle as they all made a Scout move or does only the vehicle count as Scout moving? Another oversight by GW when writing their rules or an intentional buff for the Corsairs (as if they needed any, lol)? Does an army of first turn charging units seem like too much or is it passe as this point?

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About Jason

Raw Dogger, aka, Phat J Sleaze (formerly of the Booty Boyzzz) is a highly opinionated, questionably skilled 40k enthusiast. When not working at Frontline Gaming, he can be found down on Jabroni Avenue.
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RauPow
RauPow
6 years ago

I believe that it is both RAW (no rule saying Ded Transport confer rules onto unit) and RAI (See Below).

Also, only two units get them, they come as 5 man minimum squad size, its a dedicated transport that carries 5 guys, and is on units that seem, fluff wise, the first strikers in a raid (Reavers – boarders and looters and Balestrike Band – Blast a hole so others can enter).

Seems like a way to give Corsairs a unique, first strike raiding element to gameplay, while limiting to only certain choices.

westrider
6 years ago
Reply to  RauPow

My first instinct was to go with “the Unit was re-deployed”, so no they can’t Charge, but given the limitations on it and the fluff you mention, it seems much more reasonable, and it certainly doesn’t contradict any RAW.

Allornone
Allornone
6 years ago

The Blitz Brigade has a special rule forbidding it, so if it wasn’t possible in the first place the rule would be useless.

Reecius
Admin
6 years ago
Reply to  Allornone

Not necessarily. The rule could be there as a clarification.

Morollan
Morollan
6 years ago

Don’t really see any issue here. The Scout rule prevents the unit that makes the Scout redeployment from charging. That unit is the Venom.

Cavalier
Cavalier
6 years ago

I say they can assault Turn 1 because I play Corsairs. lol Just kidding I think it was intentional… I think FW did their homework writing up their army list. Their are a lot of fine details and caveats like with the Corsair Baron with who he can and cannot join, Void Dreamer psychic powers where they let you know specifically you can’t pull units out of combat and throw them into ongoing reserve scattered throughout the army list that indicate to me, that while they may haven’t missed much when putting this book together. RAW it seems quite clear, and RAI well its an assault vehicle which can scout I think they are trying to give the Corsairs who have only light skirmishers a chance to get across the battlefield and do something before they die. Just my 2 cents.

Charlie
Charlie
6 years ago
Reply to  Cavalier

To be fair, there are a lot of errors throughout the book as well. You can take an Eldar Corsair as an Allied Detachment per the FW book, yet at the same time, the same book states you must take the Corsair Prince and he must be your Warlord.

The Wasp Formation that buffs the unit when they deep strike…..except they don’t have the ability to deep strike.

Warp Hunters have two weapon profiles for the D-Flail.

Eldar Long Rifles, what are they? Maybe, they thought Ranger Rifle?

Haven’t found it yet, so I may be off on this: How does a Corsair Prince get level 3 psychic mastery?

For the Corsair formation, the book utilizes three different names for it.

This is all after a day of reading. I’m sure there are others that may be a bit more hidden. I like the book, but trying to take this (or any 40K product) strictly RAW is really hit or miss with the lack of clearly written material.

Colinsherlow
Colinsherlow
6 years ago
Reply to  Charlie

And the phoenix has two names. The Corsair’s one is the phoenix and the Eldar one is the phoenix bomber.

FishBrainn
FishBrainn
6 years ago

Let’s kill this one quickly: a venom outflanks, even though the unit within doesn’t have the rule. Can the unit charge after disembarking?

Colinsherlow
Colinsherlow
6 years ago
Reply to  FishBrainn

The unit come from reserve so no. Not just the venom.

Reecius
Admin
6 years ago
Reply to  Colinsherlow

So the unit inside counts as coming on from reserves in that instance but the unit inside does not count as scouting in the other? How then, did it move up the field?

Jural
Jural
6 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

the warp

Reecius
Admin
6 years ago
Reply to  Jural

Well then, i stand corrected! lol

eddyqw
eddyqw
6 years ago
Reply to  FishBrainn

The Venom is open topped, granting the assault vehicle rule, which specifically says you may not assault out of it the turn it arrives from reserves. Seems like a pretty clear no?

Orwell
Orwell
6 years ago

I have another question relating to the new Mymeara book.

The new Wraithseer now has the independent character and monstrous creature special rules, does this mean he can joint a unit of wraithguard with an archon and deepstrike down etc.?

eldar
eldar
6 years ago
Reply to  Orwell

Yes, MC IC can join units. They just cannot join other MC.

Dakkath
Dakkath
6 years ago
Reply to  eldar

Or other IC, because then the other IC is considered attached to a unit with an MC.

Vipoid
Vipoid
6 years ago

It’s worth noting that Corsairs also have 2 psychic powers that can allow a turn 1 assault, so the possibly of a first turn assault from their Venoms hardly feels out of place.

Prindlehaven
Prindlehaven
6 years ago

The embarked unit redeploys if it scouts. First you deploy the unit (which is embarked on a vehicle with scout). Then the unit scouts (because the vehicle has scout). Regardless of whether or not the embarked unit has the scout USR, they have now redeployed using the scout USR, and therefore cannot charge on turn 1.

rulez
rulez
6 years ago
Reply to  Prindlehaven

What you just wrote literally made zero sense, ignoring all the rules you butchered and interpreted incorrectly.

Jural
Jural
6 years ago
Reply to  rulez

When the rulez themselves complain, you know you’ve done something wrong

Prindlehaven
Prindlehaven
6 years ago
Reply to  rulez

My, what a well-reasoned argument! Explain to everyone how a unit that has redeployed because of Scout somehow didn’t Scout, I dare you.

Prindlehaven
Prindlehaven
6 years ago
Reply to  rulez

And I quote, “a unit that makes a Scout redeployment cannot charge on the first game turn”.

A unit that has redeployed due to the Scout USR on a transport has still made a Scout redeployment.

vonvilkee
vonvilkee
6 years ago
Reply to  Prindlehaven

Actually I can quite safely argue the unit inside has not redeployed… During deployment I deployed my unit into the venom done. During scout times redeploy the venom. The unit inside wasn’t redeployed it is still where I put it originally…

Ragnulf
Ragnulf
6 years ago

The Land Speeder Storm also is open-topped with Scout.

Reecius
Admin
6 years ago
Reply to  Ragnulf

But Scouts have Infiltrate and so can never make a first turn charge.

eddyqw
eddyqw
6 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

Can’t the scouts choose to deploy normally? “If a unit with Infiltrate deploys inside a Dedicated Transport, they MAY Infiltrate along with their Transport”, emphasis mine.

Reecius
Admin
6 years ago
Reply to  eddyqw

The may could just as easily be read to mean it gives permission for the vehicle to infiltrate, not that they no longer have to infiltrate. As in: if they choose to deploy in the transport, the transport may also infiltrate.

eddyqw
eddyqw
6 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

Yeah, you could definitely read it that way. As usual its not very clear what they intended, although I think you probably have it right.

Marcus M.
Marcus M.
6 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

Actually, the infiltrate special rule itself says that if you have infiltrate, you MUST infiltrate. Even if you place your models in your deployment zone, you do so during the infiltrate placement. This actually stops ICs without the infiltrate special rule from joining troops that have the infiltrate special rule during deployment as well.

Ishagu
Ishagu
6 years ago

If Scouts can charge from a LS storm, then these Corsairs can too.

I don’t think Scouts can…

Ishagu
Ishagu
6 years ago

To be honest, when I look at it the answer is definitely No.
If you allow this, one could argue that Marines coming out of a Pod can assault that turn as it was only the transport that actually arrived via deepstrike from reserves…

rulez
rulez
6 years ago
Reply to  Ishagu

Except you clearly don’t understand the principle this is discussing and you haven’t read the deep strike rules in the context of a drop pod. come back when you have.

Reecius
Admin
6 years ago
Reply to  rulez

Rulez, no need to be abrasive. You can debate a rules issue without taking that tone or stance.

Allornone
Allornone
6 years ago
Reply to  Ishagu

The deep strike rule specifies that units embarked into transports that arrive from deep strike cannot charge.

westrider
6 years ago
Reply to  Allornone

Well, given that Drop Pods don’t actually have the Deep Strike special Rule…

eddyqw
eddyqw
6 years ago
Reply to  westrider

But they are open topped, and therefore assault vehicles, and THAT rule does disallow the charge.

Charlie
Charlie
6 years ago

This is not a new occurrance with the Eldar. When the new Craftworld codex hit, Eldrad’s Warlord trait gives d3 units in the army Scout. You can take FA choice Dark Eldar Raiders and give them Scout (or a Tantalus, which is opened topped and has a transport capacity of 16). Yet, we have not seen Banshees, Scorpions or Wraithblades being utilized in this manner at all. Paying a 55 point tax to get a nearly guaranteed turn 1 assault from one of these units shores up the main issue these units suffer: lack of ability to get into assault quickly. The FW book did not invent this rule combination; it has been available for the past 8 months.

The problem with this is every type of special rule during the Deployment portion of the game dictates whether or not a unit can assault. The Ork Blitz Brigade addressed that the Orks occupying the vehicle could not assault. I assess, this was written as there were no other GW (excluding FW) units that had this particular rule combination and GW clarified how Scout on just a vehicle would interact with the unit inside the vehicle. Scout, Outflank, Deep Strike and other methods of entering the table via Reserve generally do not allow it and only have specific instances which will over ride this.Skyhammer gave a specific permission to allow assault after Deep Striking and there may be a few others that I can’t think of initially. However, the point is that there is explicit permission given to these specific occurances.

The new Doom of Mymeara Book is an interesting book, but sadly, is full of issues. The Venoms with the Scout rule is extremely clear. What is not clear is how the unit inside interacts when the Venom completes its Scout redeployment. As such, there is no clear explanation of whether than can or cannot. Without such an explicit permission, one cannot simply assume it is allowed. And due to the number of errors in this book, I cannot just assume FW intended to allow assaults because there is no language such as the Blitz Brigade.

Is it overly powerful? I don’t think so as a cheap Inquisitor with Servo Skulls completely negates this entire issue. For folks who believe it will completely change the way they build an Eldar army, I would be willing to bet a lot of Inquisitors joining the ranks of many other armies as very effective and points efficient counter.

rulez
rulez
6 years ago
Reply to  Charlie

Except that you DO specifically have permission to assault in the assault phase.

Nothing specifically removes that permission.

Trying to argue this context is nothing new and then blame it on errors in FW rule writing ability seems a poor attempt at a red herring.

Reecius
Admin
6 years ago
Reply to  Charlie

Good point, Charlie. This is the “Pandora’s Box” effect illustrated well. Allowing Seer Councils and Phoenix Lords, or ANY unit that can get into a Raider or Venom a first turn charge is a bit much. Same reason we don’t allow ICs to join Skyhammer Assault Squads. No one wants a first turn charge from Draigo and pals, lol.

Jordan
6 years ago

I’m wondering if the Venom can scout at all if it has a unit in it. There is nothing that I can think of that transfers the Scout rule from the vehicle to the unit inside.

Maybe I’m being pedantic, but those are my thougts.

rulez
rulez
6 years ago
Reply to  Jordan

i recommend you read this – it discusses the fact that the scout rule doesn’t transfer from the vehicle to the unit

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2388&sid=950f283d6de5e3bd6d7caf8c67f33e15

Joe
Joe
6 years ago
Reply to  Jordan

Under the Scout special rule in the BRB: “Note that a Transport with this special rule does not lose it if a unit without this special rule is embarked upon it.”

This is pretty clear. In terms of the assault, I think that the vehicle has used the Scout rule, but the unit has not and therefore the embarked unit may assault.

Charlie
Charlie
6 years ago

Hardly. There is no rule to cover the situation. The only precedence we have is the Ork detachment which forbids it.

The book is full of errors and it takes the ability to use context. In the case of the Venom with Scout, I have no way to determine the intent. RAW is a poor way of handling every single rules issue as it takes things out of context and can create even more issues.

It is a situation with no clear answer the best we have is precedence in which GW indicated no turn 1 assault. If not precedence, then you could easily rule in favor of the least advantageous interpretation.

Not sure why this is a conundrum now as this type of scenario has existed for quite some time.

Kontraktkiller
Kontraktkiller
6 years ago

As if corsair/Eldar players don’t already have enough OP bullshit as it is. Are you all seriously trying to say the units aboard a scouting vehicle don’t count as having scouted themsleves? WOW. I’d let you get away with it. Then I’d slow play the shit out of you and call for a judge on every roll. I’d also knit pick every rule and purposely make the game as unfun possible. Hope you all enjoy. GTFO here.

rulez
rulez
6 years ago
Reply to  Kontraktkiller

Classy guy right here…

For the record this affects Space Marines also. 🙂

Stop crying over Eldar.

kontraktkiller
kontraktkiller
6 years ago
Reply to  rulez

If you’re going to bend the rules to benefit you then you should expect your opponent to do the same. Playing against rules lawyers is massively unfun and one of the things that drive people away from competitive 40k. So, when I play you expect to have the same sort of shitty experience.

Reecius
Admin
6 years ago
Reply to  kontraktkiller

Remember to keep it civil, guys.

Alex yuen
Alex yuen
6 years ago
Reply to  kontraktkiller

Kontraktkiller then dont come and play. I think u are the one bullshitting here

Alex yuen
Alex yuen
6 years ago
Reply to  kontraktkiller

The brb cover this area very well and cover this case also in the transport section. I am not sure what the debate is?

Elzako86
Elzako86
6 years ago

Y’all better fear that 5 man eldar unit assaulting you…? I don’t see how it would matter or is relevant, but an interesting point. My vote would be that they can’t assault as the vehicle scouted.

zyekian
6 years ago
Reply to  Elzako86

Yeah I was just going to point this out. 5-man little Corsair squads aren’t that scary and if they all take haywire, well they’re no longer cheap.

Reecius
Admin
6 years ago
Reply to  Elzako86

It’s not that unit, but other units that can do something similar that are worrisome.

Empyrean Pursuit
Empyrean Pursuit
6 years ago

RAAR – Ruling Against All Reason

Reecius
Admin
6 years ago

Haha, good one! Haven’t heard that, yet.

Colinsherlow
Colinsherlow
6 years ago

One thing to note is that the Corsairs do not have fast attack Venoms so no scouting assault units from other units. Only the unit dedicated to the venom.

One thing I find strange is that to get a falcon you have to have exactly 6 models in the unit. So you can’t get a character joined to the unit. Which kinda sucks. I want my void dreamer in a falcon, but that is not an option

Colinsherlow
Colinsherlow
6 years ago
Reply to  Colinsherlow

In a scouting falcon

Jural
Jural
6 years ago

I guess the two questions are-
1) Has the unit inside the Venom been Scout re-deployed?
2) Can a transport with scout that has a unit inside which doesn’t have scout still use it’s scout move?

Regarding 1) Obviously the unit inside doesn’t have the scout rule, but the scout rule alone doesn’t stop you from assaulting turn 1, only using the scout re-deployment does. But I can see it both ways as to whether the unit inside has been scout re-deployed or not.

Regarding 2), I honestly have no idea without a rulebook in front of me, but the precedent of the orc Blitz formation seems to indicate that a vehicle with scout can still use the USR if a non-scout unit is embarked.

All of that being said… I have no problem with it.

Zyekian
Zyekian
6 years ago

I see no problem with it. In a meta with Skyhammer and absurd turn one Tau firepower five-man corsair units aren’t going to be a problem.

Also Corsairs have two psychic powers that let them assault on turn one anyway so turn one assaulting scout transports seems fluffy to me.

Reecius
Admin
6 years ago
Reply to  Zyekian

The real issue is not the unit in question here, it’s the Pandora’s Box effect. What if a similar situation pops up with the same wording of rules with units that are actually really scary? Then you’ve set precedent that it works that way for everyone else who will expect the same ruling. Not saying that that will happen, per se, just that that is something you have to consider.

Hiveminded
Hiveminded
6 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

Exactly.

As an example, in 6E (before the new SM codex dropped), Khan’s master of the hunt rule made any land raider a dedicated transport for assault terminators and assault centurions.

If you interpreted the scout rule as liberally as some are proposing here, SM players could have been assaulting turn one with TH/SS terminators or siege drill assault centurions (with Calgar or Lysander attached).

bob
bob
6 years ago
Reply to  Hiveminded

Well actually there are still possibilities in CS:M Codex to give a Landraider Scout. So you could put Khan and some Berserks in. Sounds like a good delivery.

Hotsauceman1
Hotsauceman1
6 years ago
Reply to  bob

Well in 6th, if you went second you could assault with scout units because it referred to the first player turn, not game turn.

Colinsherlow
Colinsherlow
6 years ago

I have Corsair’s and think it would be fun for first turn assaults, buuuuut I don’t think the rule should work that way. I do see the argument for both sides though.

Just seems strange to have a vehicle make a scout move and the unit in the vehicle not count as making a scout

Michael Tangney
Michael Tangney
6 years ago

To those who are saying, who cares if 5 man units can assault, couple of things.

With reaper from the outer dark a unit with rage carefully positioned could easily kill a vehicle and charge another target. So could fusion and blast pistol + haywire grenade from a voidstorm unit. Then use reckless abandon and then charge a second vehicle with 5 auto hitting haywire grenades or hit a soft troop unit with 25 i5 ws 5 attacks. Including 5power weapon on venom blade attacks. That is not shabby for 150 points.
You could have them in a hate bringers coterie too to get an extra vp + first blood

Or you could put them in a vault breachers coterie so they all have dissonance charges for free. That’s 5 s2 +3d6 (average a pen on rear armour) attacks that have a high chance if ap 2.

Now all that said I still think the rules as written allow this and the intent of the army is often devastating alpha strikes. I just think the argument of it doesn’t do much damage is a weak one.

Sam
Sam
6 years ago

There already are abilities in game that grant units scout however no one has ever bent rules interpretations before to create turn 1 assaults. Eldrad had a warlord trait that gives d3 units scout if you decided to ally in a bunch of assault transports you will be able to turn 1 assault whatever units you want .

It has never been played that way before l. I don’t see why it will be played that way now. By allowing vehicle scouting to deliver assault troops you allow bad precedent for broken combos later. Outside of flg some games allow terrain scouting are we now allowing every unit on that building to turn 1 assault? I don’t tho k it’s broken I just think it’s not intentional and absurd.

Reecius
Admin
6 years ago
Reply to  Sam

Ah yes, I was waiting for someone to break this. Good points. Lol, Seer Councils, Phoenix Lords, etc. first turn assaulting, haha. No thanks.

Hiveminded
Hiveminded
6 years ago

As a SM player, it’s not like the thought of using scout to pull off a first turn assault hadn’t occured to me before:

– scouts with a land speeder storm
– 6E codex assault terminators/centurions using dedicated transport LR with Khan as warlord

The reason I didn’t try and do it is because I’ve always interpretted the scout rule to imply that a model inside a scouting transport also scouted, hence are forbidden from turn 1 assaults. I’ve always thought the scout rule was very clear….the unit inside the vehicle moved with the vehicle as part of a scout move.

This whole discussion smells of rules lawyering.

Reecius
Admin
6 years ago
Reply to  Hiveminded

Scouts have Infiltrate though, which means they can never charge on the first turn.

Otherwise though, yeah, good points.

Hiveminded
Hiveminded
6 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

Ah, right…..damned infiltrate!

Kartr_Kana
Kartr_Kana
6 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

Infiltrate says “Units with this rule deploy last” but it then it says “If a unit with Infiltrate deploys inside a Dedicated Transport, they MAY Infiltrate along with their transport.” and “A unit that deploys using these rules cannot charge in their first turn.”

The Land Speeder Storm has Scout but not Infiltrate.

So if the Scouts deploy without being in a LSS they either have to remain in reserve or Infiltrate. However if they deploy in a LSS they MAY Infiltrate, meaning they don’t have to.

So a squad of Scouts in a Dedicated Transport LSS can deploy normally, then use the LSS Scout rule to re-deploy. Since the Scouts did not deploy using the Infiltrate special rule (virtue of being inside the LSS) they now face this same Venom conundrum. They didn’t use their Scout rule the transport did, so can the Scouts charge?

Reecius
Admin
6 years ago
Reply to  Kartr_Kana

I think you are reading the meaning of may in that sentence incorrectly. I see where you are coming from but it could also be read to mean that the rule gives the transport permission to infiltrate when normally it could not.

Kartr_Kana
Kartr_Kana
6 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

Exactly, it gives it /permission/ to Infiltrate, it doesn’t /require/ it to Infiltrate.

If the unit was required to Infiltrate with their transport then there would be no need for the “may” in the sentence. It could simply read “If a unit with Infiltrate deploys inside of a Dedicated Transport, they Infiltrate along with their transport.”

Reecius
Admin
6 years ago
Reply to  Kartr_Kana

I see your argument, but grammatically the sentence can be read both ways. And yes, they could have written it the way you wrote it, too, but language is infinitely nuanced and complex. There is rarely one correct way to write something. That is why we argue rules in the first place, haha.

Marcus M.
Marcus M.
6 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

The infiltrate rule itself requires units that have it to use it, per the BRB.

Jural
Jural
6 years ago
Reply to  Reecius

just like scout- it’s USING infiltrate, not HAVING it which triggers the no assault.

That’s best argument against allowing this- the units in the transport have made a scout move, even though they don’t have the USR.

Morollan
Morollan
6 years ago
Reply to  Jural

Does the unit inside also make tanks shocks, flat out moves, rams etc?

Kartr_Kana
Kartr_Kana
6 years ago
Reply to  Morollan

Essentially, yes. You cannot disembark, shoot or anything else with the unit inside if the transport Tank Shocks/Rams or moves Flat Out, etc.

Charlie
Charlie
6 years ago

The rules explain what happens when a unit having Scout,infiltrate or Outflank and the interaction with a dedicated transport. There is no rule explanation for when a vehicle has it and a unit embarked does not. We can’t even say with certainty the vehicle can even Scout, much less assume a turn 1 assault.

Morollan
Morollan
6 years ago

“Essentially, yes. You cannot disembark, shoot or anything else with the unit inside if the transport Tank Shocks/Rams or moves Flat Out, etc.”

Couple of arguments against that. Firstly, what are the rules for resolving a ram made by an infantry model against a vehicle? As far as I am aware, there aren’t any. This is for the simple reason that it’s the vehicle doing the ramming, not the embarked unit. Why does this (allegedly) not apply in the case of Scout moves?

Secondly, the rulebook specifically states the effect that the vehicle’s action has on a transported unit but does not do so in the case of Scout. So why are we trying to add in rules that aren’t there?

Venkarel
Venkarel
6 years ago

My two cents is I think they cannot charge. I think the scout rule is worded the way it is, with the scout redeployment language, specifically to stop this sort of thing. But I will not cry over spilled milk if it goes the other way. If it does go the other way, this will be nuts with the WS Stormbringer formation. Scout 12″ (because the LSS has scout), move 12″, depoly 6″, then charge = profit (that is a 37″ range on average).

doktor_g
doktor_g
6 years ago

Jesus Christ. Please those poor Eldar are getting crushed in the meta. I mean, “they never win big tourneys.” They NEED first turn assault. #PoorPoorEldar.

Alex yuen
Alex yuen
6 years ago

Am i missing something here. Brb cover this case very well.

Kartr_Kana
Kartr_Kana
6 years ago
Reply to  Alex yuen

BRB says a Unit that uses a Scout Re-deploy cannot charge in the first turn. The problem is that the “unit” using the Scout rule to re-deploy is not the unit inside the transport.

So the question becomes “is a unit embarked in a transport considered to be a part of the same unit with the transport.”

And “if a transport Scouts is the unit inside considered to have Scouted.”

Alex yuen
Alex yuen
6 years ago
Reply to  Kartr_Kana

The rule does not say unit with scout rule redeploy cant charge. The rule say id u redeploy during scout phase u cant charge or what it call scout redeployment. Having the actural scout rule is irrelevant to changing. It is only relevant can u redeploy.

Alex yuen
Alex yuen
6 years ago
Reply to  Kartr_Kana

2 more paragraph down BRB even cover where transport have scout and the passengers did not. The problem is what ppl think the rule is saying rather reading it.

Kartr_Kana
Kartr_Kana
6 years ago
Reply to  Alex yuen

All it says is that the transport doesn’t loose Scout it doesn’t say if the unit inside counts as having scouted. Neither does anything in the Transports section.

The whole point is people are arguing that “a unit that has re-deployed cannot charge” does not apply to the unit inside the transport because it was the transport that re-deployed.

Not saying their right/wrong, just pointing out what the argument is and that there is nothing in the BRB which says units inside a transport that scouted count as having scouted. In fact a particular Ork formation explicitly forbids a non-Scout unit from assaulting out of a transport that has scouted. Thus implying that they would normally be allowed to do so.

Reecius
Admin
6 years ago
Reply to  Kartr_Kana

The unit inside did redeploy though, haha. Not trying to pick a fight, but you can hardly say the unit inside the transport did not also redeploy. If a transport moves, the unit inside counts as moving, too.

Dogberry1982
Dogberry1982
6 years ago
Reply to  Kartr_Kana

I think that the key to this issue is when a unit counts as having deployed.

If a unit inside a transport counts as being deployed when the transport is deployed, then they would have to count as having re-deployed when the transport makes the scout re-deployment.

On pg 132 the rulebook says that units may be deployed ‘inside’ transports as long as they are in your deployment zone.

The scout rule says that the scout re-deployment is exempt from that restriction and the re-deployment can be made outside the deployment zone. It also specifically forbids you from embarking or disembarking during the scout deployment.

To me this is very clear. The units in a transport are deployed with the transport, and therefore the scout re-deployment counts as a re-deployment for the unit inside. If this were not the case, then what happens to the unit inside when the transport re-deploys?

Dogberry1982
Dogberry1982
6 years ago
Reply to  Kartr_Kana

To clarify, if the unit in the transport doesn’t re-deploy using the scout rule, then they CANNOT move outside your deployment zone. The only exception to “deploying in your own deployment zone” is IF you make a scout re-deployment.

Marcus M.
Marcus M.
6 years ago
Reply to  Kartr_Kana

I disagree. It’s coming down to whether or not you consider the inside of a transport to be a static location or not. Once they’ve deployed “inside” a transport, THAT is their deployment location until they disembark. It doesn’t matter if the vehicle moves, scouts, enters ongoing reserve or whatever. They’re still in their original deployment location, which is: “Inside their transport.”

Nannermand
Nannermand
6 years ago

So by this logic I could run a grotesquerie on foot, have fast attack raiders and eldrad from a cad and can turn one assault with scout? I feel like this combo or any other would have been used by now. Scout goes from
An embarked unit to the transport. To me your lawyering pretty hard to say because it doesn’t specifically say in works vice Versa that it’s allowed. We know if you scout you can’t assault turn one. I am trying to think of any other rules between vehicles and embarked units were it doesnt effect both units and couldn’t think of an example. I do believe a loophole has been uncovered but will probably be clarified. To me lack of a sentence without coherency to others rules is often a mistake or over site.

Nannermand
Nannermand
6 years ago

Has anyone in Europe called forge world for clarification?

Morollan
Morollan
6 years ago
Reply to  Nannermand

I’ve e-mailed them. Will copy their response here when received.

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