Last Night’s Eldar Challenge Battle Replay: Dual Centstar vs. Seer Council Eldar

grudge match


The challenges just keep rolling in! This time it was multiple GT winner, Doug Johnson and his Dual CentStar list he piloted to the Semi-Finals at Adepticon where he only lost against 3 time champ, Nick Nanavati vs. Reecius with a Seer Council Eldar list, and Reecius has never played a Seer Council before….ever. See what hapenned!

Watch the game, here!


Eldar CAD


Scat Bikes x 4

Scat Bikes x 5

Wraithguard: D-Scythes x 5

Warp Spiders x 10: Exarch


Seer Council

Farseer: Bike, Shard

Farseer: Bike, Gem

Warlock: Bike x 5

Dark Eldar Allied Detachment

Succubus: Glaive, Armor of Misery, WWP

Warriors x 5: Shredder

Venom: Splinter Cannon x 2


Grey Knight Strike Force



Strike Squad

Dreadknight: Flamer, Teleporter


Space Marine CAD


Scouts x 5

Scouts x 5

Cents x 3: Grav, Omni

Cents x 3: Grav, Omni

Blood Angels Allied Detachment


Scouts x 5


About Reecius

The fearless leader of the intrepid group of gamers gone retailers at Frontline Gaming!

46 Responses to “Last Night’s Eldar Challenge Battle Replay: Dual Centstar vs. Seer Council Eldar”

  1. Scotyknows May 1, 2015 9:46 am #

    So like, do we just stop playing cause eldar have ruined the game? Noob eldar(never used this list or seer council) vs very experienced SM/GK shenanigans and the SM get rolled. This eldar challenge is crushing my will to paint/play. Even if ITC fixes things, most small tourneys and clubs dont use ITC rules….

  2. fluger May 1, 2015 9:48 am #

    I asked it in the other thread, what do you recommend to fix Eldar, Reece?

  3. tcmd May 1, 2015 9:59 am #

    Twitch just seems to be getting worse. All it will do with this link is give me 2 seconds of audio before the screen goes to an error message. I really wish you guys would go back to YouTube until twitch gets their act together.

    • Hush May 1, 2015 10:23 am #

      I get same issues 🙁

    • Deuce11 May 1, 2015 12:47 pm #


      I have yet to see one of these Eldar challenges!

      • Painjunky May 1, 2015 5:02 pm #


        Please go back to youtube!

  4. Adam ( May 1, 2015 10:13 am #

    Is that Eldar missing something?

  5. Chubs May 1, 2015 10:16 am #

    What’s the going Jager Charge required to summon pajama pants?

  6. CKuno May 1, 2015 10:16 am #

    Yeah, Eldar are definitely starting to look more and more ridonkulous when placed in the hands of people who know how to play the game. I’ve seen more than a few battle reports from people down at their local FLGS where they don’t look so invincible, but every report where they’re in the hands of someone who is a serious tournament player they’re just bonkers.

    I think limiting bike Heavies to 1 in 3, limiting Wraithknight to just one per army, and then making it that Wraithguard always roll to scatter when deep striking would help, but even then a good player who knows what they’re doing should have a strong advantage.

    Has anyone played or seen a match against the new Skitarii though? I feel like they might have a few answers to Eldar. Onagers with Nuetron lasers firing 48″ Str 10 AP 1 blasts might be a decent if somewhat expensive counter while Icarus arrays should be able to put the hurt on any skimmer tanks. the big problem though is that super accurate Wraithguard will have a decent chance of removing a poorly placed squad in one go if it can get past the invuls. Wonder if the new AdMech book that’s coming will have some good toys to take against Eldar too…

  7. Rolling Thunder May 1, 2015 10:21 am #

    Sorry you were getting so much flak about casting fortune twice on turn 1, Reece, slip ups in the rules happen… in fact, your opponent also played the rules for buildings wrong: each time you penetrate against a building, you also roll on the building damage table (that has lots of bad effects on units inside like making them shoot snap shots or take additional d6 S6 hits).

    Also, you guys have been playing the farseer stones totally wrong, but I think someone else mentioned that… you can choose to reroll ANY (not all) of the dice you feel like rerolling!

    So, in conclusion, we have multiple eldar builds of various levels of competitveness destroying the hardest touney lists (deamons with natural 2++ rerollable and dual centstar with 3 detachments), so sad for the game overall… Someone will probably eventually beat you and take your money, but the point has been made

    • fluger May 1, 2015 10:49 am #

      He’s stated it before that the ITC ruling on re-rolls for psychic dice is an all or nothing thing. They recognize that as an errata, not a ruling.

      As to your last paragraph, I think it’s even more stark when you consider that Reece isn’t even really TRYING to make the most broken Eldar list possible and has only been behind the wheels for a week or so. Think about how long it took for Daemons to assert themselves from 6th edition! I wonder what other combinations we haven’t even really seen yet.

      • Rolling Thunder May 1, 2015 12:43 pm #

        So they kept the ITC errata that you re-roll all the psychic dice (a nerf to the eldar), but omitted the ITC changes to the 2++ re-rolls and 3 detachments (also a disadvantage to the eldar), but yet still the eldar won… nice

        • fluger May 1, 2015 1:41 pm #

          Correct. It’s just that crazy.

        • jy2 May 1, 2015 3:18 pm #

          2++ re-rolls actually help Eldar in this case/game.

  8. John May 1, 2015 11:09 am #

    I have a bit of a shocker suggestion…for ITC how about just ignore and ban craftworld eldar book and go back to the last one? People will finally stop whining about wave serpents….trying to fix this newest book is just pointless IMO. No matter what you think you are “fixing” someone is going to lose their mind that you are changing it. On the whole the old book looks infinitely more balanced now…so I suggest keeping it. Also how many people bought wraith knights and now they are never going to get to play with lone tear for the eldar players sure, but if you are going to take the OP things out of this book cut them out of every book..dump cent star, screamer council, grimnoire…just ban it all untill its nothing but tactical marines in rhinos against tactical marines in rhinos…I think you will have far less upet players if you just ditch this book in total and leave the old dex in place.

    • CKuno May 1, 2015 11:17 am #

      If you think people would complain to have some stuff in the new codex restricted, imagine how apoplectic they would be to have the whole dex ret-conned like that. Not only that, but it would bar newer players from playing Eldar since the old books are going to start becoming rarer. You’d essentially be locking in everyone who currently plays Eldar or asking people to search out 6th ed codexes on Ebay and pay what will most likely be a high mark up.

      Not trying to say your idea doesn’t have merit, but there are logistical issues there.

      • John May 1, 2015 12:14 pm #

        The other thing I was thinking…it seems like a bit of a punishment to make players buy the new eldar codex and then hardly anything that is in it is left standing because of ITC nerfs and edits…

  9. John May 1, 2015 11:34 am #

    Really GW just needs to be cut out entirely from the ITC process…I think that is where it ultimately needs to go. There is literally no reason why Dark Angels or CSM are totally sad clown face and literally any option picked out of the eldar book would be the best thing available if transported to the DA or CSM books…I agreed with the 11th co. assessment on the last podcast…this book reminds me of when the tau codex dropped…that was literally about the end of my playing 40k….

    • tag May 1, 2015 12:49 pm #

      This Eldar codex is definitely a feel bad moment for Eldar and non-Eldar players alike. I wouldn’t be surprised if we see a group of players leave 40K for other games designed by game companies who playtest their games, and don’t screw up this epically when assigning point costs..

      Thankfully the 40K community is in a relatively good place right now, and I believe in our ability to find a way to move forward even with this steaming pile of crap GW just left in our game stores.

      I’ve been brainstorming more creative approaches to Comp than a detachment limit with a Ban list, and this new Eldar codex invalidates many approaches because of how undercosted basically every unit is in relation to its abilities. About the only approach to Army Comp that fixes this is an alternate cost scheme like Swedish (or Australian) Comp where a council of respected gamers can add an alternate costing system to unit that is more balanced for people who play the game.

      Since alternate costing schemes are difficult to implement if there are vocal opponents (which there are), I expect a more direct approach to this book with nerfs to Eldar units and rules that they exploit, and until we arrive at a community endorsed approach to this the Comp discussion is stalled.

  10. Adam ( May 1, 2015 12:34 pm #

    Im struggling to see how different this is than the previous incarnation. WK mess up monsters and vehicles like before, they still put out a punishing amount of mid strength shots, just now from bikes instead of serpents. Wraithguard still mess up whatever they shoot at (WG in a WWP killed Knights before, it’ll kill them now, no big surprise there), and still need Dark Eldar WWPs or Raiders to deliver them effectively… The book really seems like business as usual for Eldar.

    Sure, a WK on a 6 to-hit is a bitch, but that’s on a 6, and it’s only BS4, so there’s only about a 44% chance that both shots will hit anyhow. It really just seems like when it gets lucky it’ll be obnoxious, but generally will still be a tough to kill monster who is fairly efficient at shooting heavily armoured targets and rubbish against anything else.

    • Deuce11 May 1, 2015 12:56 pm #

      the WK is still a bitch on 2-5.

      Even if this IS business-as-usual, that doesn’t mean it is acceptable. Eldar were bad for the game in 6th and now they are devastating for the game in 7th.

    • IndigoJack May 1, 2015 2:37 pm #

      Scatterbikes and serpents aren’t a good comparison. At most, a serpent put out 7 S7 and 4 S6 shots twin linked, while a 5 bikes put out 20 S6 shots. For serpents that’s about 3 dead marines, and for bikes that’s 4 dead marines. The biggest difference though is in price, where bikes are 135pts while serpents with DA we’re around 200 apiece. That makes bikes far more efficient. Not to mention that bikes can JSJ, are easier to hide, and can forgo shooting to move 4′ to grab an objective.

  11. Rolling Thunder May 1, 2015 12:48 pm #

    I actually think that WK are a bit of a liability in the new rules, giving up an extra 2 points on secondary to any army with a bit of grav, as long as that attrition through victory rule stays in the ITC ruleset, I am ok with them, especially if you are only allowed 1 (as a LOW)

    There still needs to be a change to ranged D though… probably just changing a roll of a 6 to the same as 2-5 should be enough, or give them an extra -1 (so the 6s never happen). Its still pretty good to be causing a penetrating hit to a land raider on a 3…

  12. Mike May 1, 2015 12:54 pm #

    I think my solution still stands: disallow 7e eldar for the rest of the current ITC season, have them use the 6e book. Check on it again before next season to see what other craziness has come out to see if this super-dex has gained any playmates that can at least stand up to it.

    • Deuce11 May 1, 2015 12:57 pm #

      decent wait and see approach

      • Bill May 1, 2015 1:23 pm #

        +1 why use this wretched abortion of a dex….

        • Jason Brown May 1, 2015 2:28 pm #

          Give me 58 bucks and ok.

          • Bill May 2, 2015 10:18 am

            If you are worried about $$$$ ur in the wrong hobby…40k is a rich man’s sport

          • Jason Brown May 3, 2015 10:55 am

            Bill, you don’t want me to use something I just bought in tourney play, you got to pay me bro. At this point I am in over 150 bucks in books alone. The Brooklyn part of me laughs at your tears and just wants to put a seven man d scythe unit with WWP in every lost out of pure spite. Why seven you ask? Template placement shenanigans.

  13. Simon May 1, 2015 1:35 pm #

    I think that Its getting to the point where we need two sets of codices. 1 for GW casual play, the ones that they (GW) release and one for each army- written by tournement organisers. Shit like this is just dumb and bad for the games future. Alot of people love competetive play and This new book is sabotaging it for all.

  14. Jason Brown May 1, 2015 2:39 pm #

    In all honesty, all of these lists represent a different META for killing Deathstars and MCs. Eldar tend to be fast so an elite army just doesn’t have the weight to take them on and do not have the tools to deal with them. Where are the wyverns? With Eldar the way they are now you need something like that.

    Yes some changes need to be made:
    Distort weapons go to the 6e prophile
    Windriders 1 in three for the guns (22 points a model isn’t a bad idea either)
    All or nothing my on rerolls for Runes.
    Knight is 400 points.

    Pretty easy and you have a book with incredible diversity that is still too tier but not stupid.

  15. jy2 May 1, 2015 3:20 pm #

    Good to see Doug coming out of retirement.

    BTW, I don’t see douche-scythe wraithguards in your list above, Reece.

    Also, what the heck is the BA allied priest for? Does FNP apply to a non-BA faction?

    • Raw Dogger May 2, 2015 7:39 am #

      No the priest has a Narthecium which gives the Centurions Feel No Pain. What they don’t get is the +1 WS on the charge.

  16. Brian May 1, 2015 3:37 pm #

    I completely agree with the thought of Tournament Organizer written codices, half of the armies out there are very obviously handicapped or limited to a single build to make it viable. Out of my playgroup we all basically stopped going to tournaments, because of the armies we play.

  17. Khezden May 1, 2015 4:13 pm #

    The real meat of these lists (aside from the DE Succubus, of course) has been the deep striking Wraithguard. My jaw dropped when Reece rolled below average and basically still took a massive bite out of that first star. The ability to make other theoretically tough units like the Corpsethief Claw disappear like 5 wyches is over the top. An AP2 flamer that ignores FnP and (as I under stand it) reanimation protocol? Boo!

    From what we’ve seen: Council? As good as expected. WK? Kind of meh offensively (unless he’s shrugging off bolter fire and stomping poor Tac Marines that don’t have enough las support). Bikes? Lots of very good dice but we haven’t seen a real focus or beta strike on them yet.

    But the D-scythes? Just No.

  18. Tarrasq May 1, 2015 7:07 pm #

    Yeah someone, or a group of someones, really just needs to through all the codices and just figure out new point costs. Just make a list of broken, overpowered, underpowered, and worthless units/wargear and adjust the points +50%, +25%, -25%, -50% respectively.

    Just put a one month moratorium on any new releases for competitive play for play testing, and point adjusting.

    Should probably throw detachments out too and make competition force organization charts.

  19. Rudd May 1, 2015 8:20 pm #

    I think 3 small fixes for Eldar and everything would be solid:

    1 – Eldar Jetbikes all give a 5+ armor save, unless the rider already has a better save. Thus, Windriders, Farseers on Bikes, and Warlocks on Bikes would all have a 5+ save, while Autarchs and Shining Spears would keep their 3+ save (since they have Heavy Aspect Armor as part of their Wargear). This would make Jetbikes MUCH more balanced, since there are so many weapons that could hurt them, or at least for Jinking, which suppresses their otherwise incredible firepower.

    2 – Wraithguard/Wraithblades can only be joined by Spirit Seers and can only make Snap Shots on the turn they disembark from transports. This prevents the much maligned DE Webway Portal shenanigans that make D-Scythes so ridiculous and also gives opponents much more viable ways to deal with these squads before they unleash their crazy D weapons at close range (i.e. they can kill their transports and/or shoot them or run away from them on the turn they disembark)…. this would either force more of a Footdar approach with Wraith units or cause players to use them more as an “anvil” unit vice a “destroyer of all mankind” unit.

    3 – Wraithknights are increased to 360 points base (i.e. the price of 3 Wraithlords). This would make them much more aligned with similarly powerful units (i.e. Imperial Knights, tricked out Riptides, etc.) and would also help prevent spamming them as much by tournament players.

    If these three changes were implemented, I think the Craftworld codex would be a brilliant book, very competitive, but not auto-win and with great internal balance to incentivize players to vary their unit choices.

    • defl0 May 1, 2015 11:16 pm #

      1. The bikes are fine. They are ld 8. It’s 50 pts to make them ld 9 or 100 pts to make ld 10. They are glass cannons. They are actually fairly similar to venoms if you think about it.
      2. The DE portal is pretty crazy, but again it’s 100 points ish to make that happen. So you are talking a unit that is a minimum of 300+ points. It can kill it’s points if you are running a death star or something, but against something msu they are useless. I mean this unit is a couple T6 wounds for 300+ points!
      3. So this guys is under costed but largely because stomp as a rule is stupid.

      I personally hate TOs changing rules, but the most simple change would just be to change Str D and Stomp and anything else that does multiple hull points or remove models to S10 AP 1.

      On the flip side it’s kinda nice the Str D hard counters a lot of death stars and super heavies…

  20. defl0 May 1, 2015 10:43 pm #

    Reece is also a top tier Eldar player… and yeah those might not be the hardest thing you could run but all those units in those lists are top 10% best units in the dex.

    And to be completely honest, I think the lists he took in these games would have beaten the armies he played against with the last codex too, so I don’t really think these videos have proved anything. Just added fuel on the fire.

    Personally, I want to see you play a top tier Tau guy with any of those lists. Eldar have always had Space Marine’s number, and the daemon list should have won, but he made some movement mistakes at the end of the game…

    Don’t get me wrong, it’s a dead hard codex but just in the top tier.

  21. defl0 May 2, 2015 12:54 am #

    Btw – Nice win Reece. Dual Cent Star is hardcore. It definately shows exactly the sort of list that the eldar codex invalidates.

    Mega death star lists are in trouble for sure.

  22. Richard May 2, 2015 2:27 am #

    What is needed to fix the Eldar Codex;

    1) -1 to all blast/template/line weapons against non-superheavies and non gargantuan creatures. This stacks with the initial -1 to D-Scythes. Doesn’t apply to Stomp, CC or ranged single-shot weapons.

    2) Read Above

    3) Read above.

    Scat bikes are great but will be handled by a meta shift. Same with the fliers and psychic powers. The WK is amazing and very cheap but.. again, not absurd and thus fine as is.

    • SeekingOne May 4, 2015 9:45 am #

      So good to see a reasonable comment ever once in a while. Thank you sir.

  23. Kenny May 2, 2015 8:31 pm #

    I’m curious what would happen to the meta if we just eliminate allies and just go back to using a single CAD with no super heavies or fortifications.

    Oh, right. We would end up with broken codexes and over-powered units… wait. O.o

  24. Anomander Rake May 3, 2015 7:30 am #

    Nice battlereport!

    I think you have a Feel no Pain vs the Scythes. D-Weapon dont have Instand Death rule, they just count as S 10 but the Rules of the Scythe says that there strength is only 4.

    • Eldarain May 3, 2015 2:31 pm #

      Feel No Pain itself says you can’t take the save against Destroyer wounds.

  25. SeekingOne May 4, 2015 12:26 am #

    Ok, guys, since you film long unabridged reports anyway, it would be really good if you included rolling for psychic powers as well. Because the situation in this report looks totally odd.

    Correct me if I’m wrong – but it looks like the SM player rolled on Telepathy for ONE of his librarians, got NO Invis – and despite that proceeded to roll for the rest on Divination??? If this is true, it looks like a mistake of a guy who plays the cent-star roster for the first time. Basically, cent-star with no Invis is a dead meat – just as the Seer Council is 100% dead meat if it doesn’t roll at least one Invis or Fortune. So normally you keep rolling on Telepathy until you get at least one. But somehow Eldar got 2 Fortunes and Invis, while SM got nil.

    I could basically stop watching as soon as I saw that SM got no Invis…

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