Eldar, the ITC and the Dirty D: Keep Calm and Carry on

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My email inbox has been blowing up in response to the rumors that the new Eldar codex heading our way is riddled with ye old dirty D, and what that means for the ITC format. Read on, and be calm.

For those of you who do not know, the ITC tournament format had a vote to not allow ranged D weapons as players felt it was a bit much for tournament play. Shortly thereafter we started seeing rumors, strongly supported rumors, that the new Eldar Codex will have a great deal of D weapons in it. In fact, if these rumors are true, you can dang near build an army where every single model has a D slanger. My feelings on that intelligence of that game design decision aside, it presents a quandary for the ITC as it would mean a great many units would not be allowed to be played.

The ranged D question as it was presented during the vote really only applied to a handful of units that had very powerful ranged D weapons, primarily the Lynx. That was the context of the meta when we all voted. However, if these rumors are true, that is obviously no longer the case. The last thing we want to do is prohibit entire builds from being played in the ITC format, and in this new environment, we will most likely have to alter things a bit.

So, firstly: remain calm. No reason to freak out yet, we don’t even have the codex in our hands. Secondly: the ITC format is flexible, we designed it that way as this is not the first, nor will it be the last time GW has thrown us a curve ball. We’ve learned to just roll with it.

The game plan is to wait till we have the codex (assuming it is in fact coming out, soon. As always, keep your eye on GW’s site for verification). Obviously. Then, we will take a chance to check it out, verify rules, look at points costs, etc. and then determine what options make the most sense for the community. We’ll revisit the ranged D issue and see what direction to take, assuming that these rumors are even true and that the Eldar will be “Lords of the D!” I can say going off of past information, that a majority of folks will still not want to play with ranged D as it is written. The fact that there may be more of it is certainly not going to make it more appealing. In my opinion, it will if anything turn folks off to it even more when they are getting D slapped all over the table! However, that is just my opinion on the topic and I could very well be wrong. I remain patient, waiting to see what we actually get (again, we have no idea what will actually happen just yet). When the time comes to readdress this topic, we will be open to a large number of potential solutions and go with what the community wants. Also, we are working with polling professionals to make sure the questions are presented in ways that result in clear cut answers.

Another benefit to this situation, is that it gives us a good reason to come back around to one of the topics in the last poll that was left with a bit of ambiguity: how many detachments to play with in the ITC? The way I worded the question, we did have a plurality vote, but the results left the question if the winning answer (2 detachments) was what most players actually wanted. This is a perfect opportunity to present that question again, sooner than we thought we would be able to, to really get a clear-cut answer to that, and remove all doubt.

So, this is a positive situation. It gives us all the opportunity to adjust to changing conditions and to clarify some issues that were left a bit clouded.

Thanks for your attention, back to gaming as usual!

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About Reecius

The fearless leader of the intrepid group of gamers gone retailers at Frontline Gaming!

82 Responses to “Eldar, the ITC and the Dirty D: Keep Calm and Carry on”

  1. Bellerah April 16, 2015 9:58 am
    #

    I am sure having one army with near unlimited access to D-strength all over the place will cause a dramatic shift in all people wanting to play against it.

    The good news is maybe the eldar codex can be banned,then everyone wins!!

    • fluger April 16, 2015 10:05 am
      #

      Like how, initially, most 40kers rejected Escalation, but after the Knight Dex dropped, they quickly became accepted?

      • AbusePuppy April 16, 2015 10:25 am
        #

        No one likes Escalation, even now.

        • fluger April 16, 2015 12:13 pm
          #

          I guess I meant Super Heavies in general. Since Knights dropped, we’ve seen Barbed Hierodules and Knights in plenty of competitive events. Prior to the Knight Dex, the consensus seemed to be “no super heavies”.

          • bugsculptor April 17, 2015 11:20 am
            #

            Yeah, but a big chunk of the super heavies included in escalation itself were pretty much banned outright. Revenants and harridans were a weird choice for that first toe in the water with superheavies.

            I’m hoping the harridan gets allowed into to the ITC now, as it’s the only nid gargantuan that won’t get one-shotted by an eldar support platform.

          • AbusePuppy April 17, 2015 2:07 pm
            #

            And the Harridan isn’t/wasn’t ever that good, so I see virtually no reason to exclude it. I mean, with the current FGC rules it’s pretty dang hard to kill, sure, but it doesn’t really _do_ anything.

        • Adam
          Adam (Thediceabide.com) April 16, 2015 2:34 pm
          #

          I do… Quite a lot.

          • AbusePuppy April 16, 2015 3:09 pm
            #

            Betcha you wouldn’t if you had to play against Warhounds and Revenants and old-style Transcendent C’tan all the time. 😛

  2. Hotsauceman1 April 16, 2015 9:58 am
    #

    ……….I ain’t worried about the d. I’m worried about Bike with hundreds of scatter lasers.
    I still say nerf the d.

    • fluger April 16, 2015 10:05 am
      #

      Me too. I play primarily horde armies so D weapons are cute and all, but scatter laser deathstorm is the dumbest thing I can imagine.

    • Slaede April 16, 2015 3:25 pm
      #

      Heavy 4 Shuriken cannons jump out from behind wall, blast everything, jump back behind wall in assault phase.

      Wraithknights with T8 and stomp. D weapons everywhere!

      Good times had by all.

  3. DCannon4Life April 16, 2015 10:01 am
    #

    All I wanted for my birthday was a Gargantuan Wraith Knight swinging a D-stick at Initiative 5. If his cannons get nerfed back to S10 AP2 ‘Distortion’, so be it. I’m still going to smack me some Imperial Knights.

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 16, 2015 10:05 am
      #

      Lol! Melee D is fine, we have very, very few complaints about it. That is not even on the table. Ranged D though, is a hot topic and will be looked at.

      But do not worry, haha, if the Wraithknight in fact does get a D Slapper in melee, it will stand! Imperial Knights are all puckering in fear, lol!

      • Hotsauceman1 April 16, 2015 10:07 am
        #

        Maybe I will get the lancer.

      • Bellerah April 16, 2015 10:13 am
        #

        Init 5 str D may be a little more intimidating though. The mutual destruction thing sort of goes away.

        • Reecius
          Reecius April 16, 2015 10:16 am
          #

          Totally. Assuming it’s true, Wraithknights become extremely potent in melee. Plus, stomps and FnP, too?! Holy crap. They had better cost a boat load of points, lol!

          • DCannon4Life April 16, 2015 10:40 am
            #

            You know what’s awesome? I already own 3. I never play 3 (actually only run 1 in my 1850), but I do HAVE 3. Muwahahahaha….

        • Jural April 17, 2015 12:39 pm
          #

          Intimidating yes, but when you factor in the 5-10 point increase in cost, and their limitation to 0-6 as a troop slot, this will be the least of your worries!

  4. greggles April 16, 2015 10:04 am
    #

    I think WD purposefully leaves things vague, to drive up internet rage, to get everyone to talk about the product.

    Greggles guesses.

    1 in 3 bikes pew pew lasers.
    Distort = D on a 6, then still have to roll on the D table, not so bad. (possible chance it does nothing!, but average 2 wounds with cover/invuln saves)

    To quote one fellow
    ” Can we wait at least 1 week before declaring that GW broke the game…again? “

    • Hotsauceman1 April 16, 2015 10:08 am
      #

      I’m still wondering, could d mean something different for eldar.

      • greggles April 16, 2015 10:10 am
        #

        Ya I figure nobody has the full photo, and WD has been known to have misprints and errors in both their games and rules. I still remember the killkannon 🙁 WD said it was str 8…it was in the text!
        🙁

    • AbusePuppy April 16, 2015 10:27 am
      #

      We actually do have photos of the Windrider entry, and it explicitly is any number of bikes in the squad.

      I think people would be less likely to assume that GW was gonna fuck up the game with bad rules after every leak if GW didn’t constantly fuck up the game with bad rules.

      • greggles April 16, 2015 10:40 am
        #

        Aye but’s still the WD, and the windrider entry is from the WD, not the codex. Thus there still remains a bastion of hope! 🙂

        • DCannon4Life April 16, 2015 10:41 am
          #

          Greggles, that’s not a bastion, that’s a tarp-and-twine tent in a Perfect Storm of Scatter Lasers and D-Slappers.

          • BeeCee April 16, 2015 11:52 am
            #

            Greggles,

            The fact that on the hobby page they talk about how the windrider kit comes with enough bits to arm each bike with a shuriken catapult, scatter laser, or shuricannon makes me feel like this is not a typo.

          • greggles April 16, 2015 11:56 am
            #

            It’s ok guys, its ok..deff dreads and killa kans POWER HUG TIME!

    • DarkLink April 16, 2015 12:08 pm
      #

      They were not vauge. They were very, very explicit, and specifically showed several unit profile. These are not rumors, unless GW is going out of their way to intentionally lie about it.

  5. TrueKnight April 16, 2015 10:13 am
    #

    All that D is how Eldar got in trouble w Slaanesh to begin with. You’d think they’d learn their lesson!

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 16, 2015 10:16 am
      #

      Hahahaha! Well played, sir!

    • MikeN April 16, 2015 2:29 pm
      #

      LOL! 😀

  6. Andrew April 16, 2015 10:52 am
    #

    If every unit with D weapons has a different option to take weapons that aren’t D I don’t think maintaining the ban on ranged D is a big issue (no models become obsolete, just require a weapons refit). I’m actually more interested in another round of voting on decurian-style detachments and how many detachments they count as.

    I just hope we don’t see Eldar players accusing the community of beating their codex with a nerf bat, when clear and unbiased discussion will be required maintain a fun yet competitive experience.

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 16, 2015 11:53 am
      #

      Yeah, we’ll see how it all pans out. Right now we just don’t have enough information to make an informed decision.

  7. iNcontroL April 16, 2015 11:34 am
    #

    well said!

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 16, 2015 12:18 pm
      #

      Thanks!

  8. winterman April 16, 2015 11:38 am
    #

    No issue…unless you have an event coming up in 3 weeks instead of 3 months. Not complaining, I don’t need ITC to spell out what to do, it is just one reason why adopting the ITC as a format is tough to do for us non-Frontline Gaming TOs.

    However this does speak to something regarding the format. If this is going to work as a ‘standardized’ format, it maybe needs to have a much lighter touch on what is and isn’t allowed. That way a new set of rules doesn’t scuttle the whole thing. This is thinking not only about Eldar changes but everything since pre-7ed with escalation, IKs, formations, etc. Everytime we have a vote or some idea on what should and shouldn’t be allowed, there’s a new release that flips things on its head. No super heavies, then IK comes and makes a codex of super heavies. No formations, then we get codex after codex dependent on formations. Limited multiple detachments, now we have a detachment built on being able to take what ever combo of other detachments.

    I dunno if we should try and keep up anymore.

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 16, 2015 11:57 am
      #

      Fair point, and as the very first rule of the ITC guidelines say: TOs are free to alter them if they choose. They are a starting point.

      As for the second aspect of your post, we will always be a reactionary force. As we do not know what GW is releasing, we cannot take any other stance. And sometimes these things happen, where we react to one thing, and then GW turns it on its head. Yeah, that does occur. However, the alternative of just allowing everything in? I don’t think that is the better option, personally. I think you will see the game suffer as a result, and communities shrink, not grow. The game without restrictions is, IMO, as open to abuse as Apocalypse used to be. Well, lol, it is apoc without restrictions.

      • winterman April 16, 2015 2:11 pm
        #

        Lighter touch on what is and isn’t allowed does not mean allow everything. Sorry if that seemed implied. I am only saying knee jerk reactions by the community are starting to actually hurt the community in a lot of ways. Banning ranged D because people started putting Lynx’s on skyshields was maybe not the solution. Perhaps better to keep the two mutually exclusive so as to address the problem and not hurt a future release or use of a model people spent time and money on.

        Ideas like that is what I mean by a lighter touch.

        • Reecius
          Reecius April 17, 2015 5:16 pm
          #

          Yeah, we stumble form time to time despite our best efforts to the contrary. We learn as we go though, you know? Always room to improve.

  9. Ravenous April 16, 2015 11:57 am
    #

    Goes in line with my theory that GW is actively trying to counter tournament systems until they flat out make restrictions or their own rulings, the war on the tournament gamer continues from Games “we sell collectibles” workshop.

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 16, 2015 11:59 am
      #

      It does feel that way, sometimes, doesn’t it? I don’t think that is the case, personally. I think they just write rules they believe will sell models.

    • AbusePuppy April 16, 2015 1:14 pm
      #

      A marketing policy of “shoot yourself directly in the face” is not a very smart way to go about things.

      I’m not saying you’re necessarily _wrong_, but…

      • Dash2021 April 16, 2015 2:33 pm
        #

        ‘A marketing policy of “shoot yourself directly in the face” is not a very smart way to go about things.’

        Since when does “Smart marketing” and “GW” belong in the same sentence?

  10. pascalnz April 16, 2015 12:42 pm
    #

    I can’t wait to see you guys do a series of bat reps with the new rules vs a variety of kickass lists:)

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 16, 2015 12:50 pm
      #

      We shall try to do so, haha, still haven’t even done a Daemonkin Bat Rep! Hard to keep pace.

  11. Freeman April 16, 2015 1:46 pm
    #

    Make sure that the ITC rules don’t end up too much of a house rules comp.

    At the minute what you guys do, and the results of your events are really interesting. As soon as you stray too far from what everyone else is doing you become irrelevant.

    Really glad you are talking to people who are pros at writing poll questions. A majority vote will always ban something good, in a competitive setting, because the majority don’t use it.

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 17, 2015 1:32 pm
      #

      It is indeed a delicate dance to play 40k but not change too much.

  12. MikeN April 16, 2015 2:35 pm
    #

    This will be solely on the shoulders of the players and tourney organizers to figure out as GW has never cared or been concerned about balanced game play, not even in the slightest. You could show them an entire D weapon force and how hilariously overpowered it is against normal forces and they still wouldn’t care.

    So I applaud the ITC’s efforts to wrangle some sanity into the situation and open up dialogue about all this.

  13. Dash2021 April 16, 2015 2:42 pm
    #

    Just wana say kudos for doing a double take on the # of detachments. That was an incredibly ambiguous result. Hanging your hat on it and calling it a day would have been a giant mistake. It speaks volumes to the professionalism with which FLG is running the ITC that you are being aggressive in your pursuit of correcting that error, likely at your own expense with little in the way of direct returns. I’m not overly concerned one way or the other with the outcome, but it certainly would have left a bad taste in the communities mouth to have such a major issue decided definitively based on such ambiguous results. Hats off.

    Regarding ranged D spam: it don’t matter. #l2scatterlaserspamharder. There does seem to be a trend with GW forcing unpopular rules on the community by incorporating them into core codices though. Remember when everyone had finally decided LOW were just to much for regular 40k……..then an entire codex revolving around them came out? No one can fathom the marketing schemes of the great and powerful GW.

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 17, 2015 1:31 pm
      #

      Thanks for the kind words, Dash, much appreciated. And yeah, who knows what the thought process is? Maybe at the design studio they love the random nature of D weapons?

  14. Archon-Kalafex April 16, 2015 4:26 pm
    #

    I am definitely more scared of the bikes getting a heavy weapon each. It’s just completely retarded. For 270 pts you get 10 obsec, T4, armour 3+, jet bikes with 40 str 6 shots at 36″ that can then hide behind cover when they are done. WTF? I’ll take the old Wave serpent spam over that shit.

    • Bellerah April 16, 2015 7:35 pm
      #

      They had to make the bikes a lot better, else no one would take them with all the other d-strength choices around. So this was the only way…

  15. Will Grant April 16, 2015 5:21 pm
    #

    The hive mind is telling me all the Wraithknights will have Tyranid Scything Talons.

    Does this mean we will re-examine come the apoc too?

  16. defl0 April 16, 2015 10:15 pm
    #

    Why do people care about D so much? There are a tons of units that auto remove units off the board at this point. Stomp. Wolves. Etc.

    Or in a more traditional way, grav centurions, wraith knights, thunder wolf cav…

    You point certain units at pretty much anything and you might as well not roll dice.

    Honestly, It’s nice that there are death star counters or all lists would be pain train busses.

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 17, 2015 1:32 pm
      #

      There’s a difference, though. Vs. other things you CAN get a save. You may not always, but simply rolling a 6 for victory bothers a lot of folks.

  17. Deuce11 April 17, 2015 6:22 am
    #

    turning problems into opportunities. what a leader!

    In all seriousness, great job, FLG. You guys are a tremendous asset to the hobby. Thanks.

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 17, 2015 1:27 pm
      #

      Thank you for the kind words =)

  18. Lord Krungharr April 17, 2015 7:50 am
    #

    I saw somewhere the wraithknight will be “colossal” creature. So I’m wondering if that means maybe it’ll get a special smash attack at str D but at init 1 like the bloodthirster w colossal axe? That makes sense. If it gets ranged Destroyer guns then I hope it is very costly in points as that would really make things very unfun for many tournament players. Burn have confidence TOs will change destroyer rules to compensate. They really need redoing to fit within the same processes as all other attacks. just call them str 10 w shred and armor bane and add +1 to vehicle damage and subtract -1 from applicable saving throws maybe.

  19. DCannon4Life April 17, 2015 10:58 am
    #

    Codex leaks on Warseer. Legitimate: Pic of codex posted.

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 17, 2015 1:29 pm
      #

      Yeah, most of it I actually like quite a bit, but a scatter laser on every bike and D weapons all over the place is a bit much, haha.

  20. Bellerah April 17, 2015 11:20 am
    #

    WK coming in at 295 points.

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 17, 2015 1:30 pm
      #

      Sooooooooooooo under-priced! haha, that is crazy.

      • AbusePuppy April 17, 2015 2:06 pm
        #

        Stomp alone is practically worth that much.

        • Reecius
          Reecius April 17, 2015 5:16 pm
          #

          Yeah, and being able to shoot two targets? And FnP? And no ID? Lol, for only 45 more points? That is comical.

          • AbusePuppy April 17, 2015 9:46 pm
            #

            Not to mention immunity to Sniper/Poison, which was the WK’s worst enemy before.

  21. Hollismason April 17, 2015 11:43 am
    #

    Haha it’s like they preemptively just screwed your poll. There’s 4 units now in the Codex that you’ll have to ban. Wraith Knights , Wraithguard, Hemlock Wraith Fighters, D- Cannon Weapons Platforms. Avatar

    • AbusePuppy April 17, 2015 12:51 pm
      #

      Also the Warp Hunter and Illic Nightspear (presumably.)

      I don’t like the sound of a lot of this stuff, either, but outright-banning significant portions of a codex… does not sit well with me. It’s a real dilemma.

      • Reecius
        Reecius April 17, 2015 1:29 pm
        #

        It is. But, we won’t ban things outright, it doesn’t make sense. But, folks do not want to simply take things off of the table, either.

        • AbusePuppy April 17, 2015 2:05 pm
          #

          Oh, believe me, I fully understand that- I played in an unmodified Escalation tournament during 6E, so I know just how stupid Str D can be.

          • Reecius
            Reecius April 17, 2015 2:26 pm
            #

            Yeah, it’s too much for regular play, especially when you can spam it. Eldar can take care of hordes and objectives with the Jetbikes and anything else with D slappers, and be super fast….lol!

        • Hollismason April 17, 2015 2:18 pm
          #

          This codex which we have as confirmed that weapons are D strength is insane. A 2 Shot 295 point T8 Gargantuan Creature , that auto comes with Eternal Warrior, 6+ Poison.

          Weapon Batteries laying down Large Blast ST D

          5 Troops for a 150 point cost that come with 12″ range ST D Weapons

          Hemlock Fighter w/ 2 D Scythes which are ST D blasts

          It completely overpowers and breaks the game and we haven’t even seen the full codex yet.

          That Decurion like detachment is CRAZY good.

          There’s a normal Psychic Power with a Apocalyptic Blast that’s Fleshbane , Haywire.

          • Reecius
            Reecius April 17, 2015 2:24 pm
            #

            Yeah, it looks a bit OTT at present, lol. We’ll wait till we have the book….but yeah, pretty brutal.

            Wraithknights can shoot two targets, too, hahaha

  22. Hollismason April 17, 2015 2:20 pm
    #

    Oh and the crazy ROF that the Eldar Jetbikes get now.

    • Reecius
      Reecius April 17, 2015 2:25 pm
      #

      I think that is actually the gnarliest thing in there right now.

      • Hollismason April 17, 2015 2:31 pm
        #

        It’s way overpowered for the point cost. I mean even with two squads you’re getting something like 80 ST6 Shots for 540 points.

        6.75 points a ST6 shot.

        Sure it can’t hurt AV 12+ that well but who cares, you’ve still got plenty of points for D – Cannon Batteries which can.

        It’s really really powerful.

        • Reecius
          Reecius April 17, 2015 2:42 pm
          #

          It’s TOO powerful, haha. But, we’ll wait till we have the book. I find it hard to believe every bike gets a scatter laser for a mere 10pts….

          • Bellerah April 17, 2015 2:46 pm
            #

            they are fine, it is not like they haev easy access to twin linking them, or any ability to play the move, shoot and scoot game with them…oh wait….

      • Bellerah April 17, 2015 3:59 pm
        #

        I was thinking 3×10 of these jetbikes, 2 WK, 2 farseerers from some bugging then 300 points or so to spend as you like. 120 str 6 shots with some possible guide and of course the WK with toe in cover.

        • Reecius
          Reecius April 17, 2015 5:17 pm
          #

          Dirty!

        • MikeN April 17, 2015 8:18 pm
          #

          sweet baby jesus that makes me ill just thinking about it. lol 😀

  23. Brian April 17, 2015 5:27 pm
    #

    I seriously think this is going to break up all the unification among gamers that Frontline has been able to achieve. Either they allow this stuff and make their rules even more lax, or try to change/ban things and push away all those who already think the limitations on the most powerful units/combos is too much. How the hell are you supposed to have fun with this game? Even in my local gaming group we rely on the ITC format to make everyone seem fair and balanced from a neutral, third party, and it’s impossible to go to the local game store to play, because the guy who runs the store is the worst offender for bringing multiple c’tans, or several heldrakes or whatever seems the most powerful to him. This will only divide the game more for those plying for fun and those who want a serious chance at winning.

  24. Hollismason April 17, 2015 6:50 pm
    #

    It certainly changes things in terms of what people are allowed to bring. Oh great I can’t field a Decurion but Eldar get to field 30 Jet Bikes and 3 D Cannon Batteries in under 1500 points , awesome.

  25. Jayson Collier April 17, 2015 8:43 pm
    #

    Like