The Greatest 40K Player in the Universe on the Crimson Slaughter


Hello everyone Frankie, the Greatest 40K player in the universe, here to talk to you about the future of Chaos Space Marines. As always, check out the Tactics Corner for more reviews!

As you all know chaos space marines have been a blemish on the competitive scene since they were released, with no real tournament winning builds coming out of the book. Yes you could ally with Deamons and do fairly well but the Deamon Codex is so much stronger as a primary army that it makes no sense to even take Chaos except for a Helldrake and Be’Lakor.

Then we got the Black Legion Codex which helped a bit, giving us one more HQ, Heavy, and Fast Attack choice. With the Black Legion as an allied detachment you could put up a really good fight against most armies but would still struggle against the top armies such as Tau, Eldar and Space Marines. Black Legion was great but everyone that could take Veterans of the Long War had to take it: weeeee…. Oh, but let’s not forget Chaos Chosen as troops! Extra points for a marine with one more attack, access to special weapons, And ATSKNF (Oh wait they are Chaos, they are scared of everything). Unfortunately they do not have that rule. So you’re paying extra points for a unit that breaks and gets run down or breaks and then snap fires when it re-groups, LAME!

Now we have the Crimson Slaughter Codex. Something finally done right! Haha no down sides from the first look, just bonuses. Warlord traits from this codex are quite good, just a couple stinkers. Special wargear options that are freaking awesome! Reasonably priced if not under-priced, and divination capabilities from one of the items. Thank you Chaos Gods for finally smiling on your followers! Unfortunately you cannot ally this Codex with Black Legion, but that is okay. We can look past that. What do you guys think about allies with Crimson Slaughter? Some debate on this point. -ed Divination alone makes Chaos a force to recon with. Scriers Gaze makes Chaos a tournament winning army, alone. You get your Helldrakes when you want them and keep your troops off the table till later turns. Keeping your troops off the table is what really saves Chaos since their troops are so WEAK! Also let’s not forget Misfortune, Prescience, and Forewarning, excellent powers that really change Chaos. Giving units re-rolls to hit really helps and makes Chaos lords extremely scary.

With the new Codex I believe Chaos can but up a fight against the top armies by possibly giving super fast assault units a 4+ inv save, bringing Heldrakes on all at the same time to bring the thunder down on your opponent’s army, and by keeping your troops off the table until they are needed to hop onto objectives. Not to mention Misfortune on those dreaded 2+ re-roll armies. Chaos still needs a little luck but I believe that you will start to see Chaos armies on the top tables.

Well thanks for reading ladies and gentleman! Now do as I do, and go crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentations of their women!


About Reecius

The fearless leader of the intrepid group of gamers gone retailers at Frontline Gaming!

85 Responses to “The Greatest 40K Player in the Universe on the Crimson Slaughter”

  1. Avatar
    masos March 17, 2014 11:21 am #

    Awesome article Frankie.

    Crimson Slaughter army are going to look awesome on the table.

    Divination will change the meta when it comes to chaos. IMO the crimson slaughter will be the best ally for daemons or CSM.

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      Tirelion March 17, 2014 4:12 pm #

      Unfortunately Crimson Slaughter can ally to or with daemons. Since the only option for allies that they are given are to CSM as battle bros. Which really sucks actually I would have loved to ally them to tzeentch daemons.

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        Tirelion March 17, 2014 4:12 pm #


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          Droozy March 18, 2014 5:36 am #

          There’s no way that is the intention. All it says under allies is that they are battle bros. with CSM, I don’t see that as meaning every other army is come the apocalypse, only that they follow the allies matrix for CSM and can be Battle Bros. with them. Think of it like this, to determine available allies for a Crimson Slaughter detachment you would refer to the Allies Matrix in the BRB and replace CSM with Crimson Slaughter on the Matrix. Now there’s no CSM on the Matrix but they just told you they are battle bros. so now you have a complete matrix. I just don’t see how being as likeable as Tyranids could possibly be the intention and I would be shocked, shocked I tell you, if tournaments in the future would disallow Crimson Slaughter w/ daemon allies(or IG w/ Clan Raukaan etc. since that is precisely the same case). I see where you’re coming from but I fear you’re on the wrong side of history with this.

          • Avatar
            Tirelion March 18, 2014 7:13 am

            I would also be shocked if TO’s didn’t allow them to ally, but that would be going for intention not RAW. What you stated was literally making up rules that don’t exist. You determine available allies based on rules that give you permission to use allies. Based on that, there is no rules language anywhere in the RAW that allows you to use allies other than CSM for CS. Now so we are clear. I really want to be proven wrong here, because I have a case full of Daemons that are clambering to ally to CS! But I really need some sort of concrete rules language that allows that. Keep in mind that the ally rules for Crimson Slaughter out of the supplement are different from EVERY OTHER supplement. They aren’t even worded the same way as the Black Legion supplement. So unless a TO or gaming group is willing to change the RAW to allow it, I don’t see it being legal.

            Keep in mind, and I can’t say this enough, the ally matrix is NOT PART of ANY codex’s army list. This is a HUGE distinction to make. The only codicies that have reference to allies (to my knowledge) are Codex: Space Marines, and Codex: Inquisition. We have got to stop using the SM supplements as some sort of “precedent” setters for this as they core SM codex actually has ally rules for allying detachments with different tactics to each other. Because of that, they are a different animal entirely.

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      White925 March 18, 2014 12:47 pm #

      Thank you and I sure hope it does change things

  2. Avatar
    EvilLairChandler March 17, 2014 11:32 am #

    My initial thought upon hearing about this was, oh a random chaos warband supplement. Meh…but I decided to check on the rumors to see what all was going to be in there. All of it looked great, but then that one thing caught my eye….so much so I had to do a double take. Divination?! Really?! No way they are giving Chaos this! But yes, it’s true.

    The book overall is very good. Now we can finally give chaos lords a 2+ save without hoping for a boon roll. A lot of the combos are nice. Possessed as troops is kind of meh, but then you look at the mutation chart they get and…wow…nasty. But divination is so absolutely critical that one artifact alone makes it worth it. In fact, I think from now on you’d be hard pressed to find any Chaos player not running at least an allied detachment just to get it. It is THAT big of a deal.

    This supplement was what Chaos needed. Now the worshippers of the corpse god will kneel before us!

    • Avatar
      White925 March 18, 2014 12:51 pm #

      Haha I totally agree. I was hesitant at first but am now jumping up and down. The artifacts are amazing and I cannot wait to play this codex at a tournament.

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    Smurfalypse March 17, 2014 11:37 am #

    Just used Crimson Slaughter + Daemons in a local RTT and ended up taking first out of 24 folks. Works pretty well, the Chaos Lord is an absolute monster with the new Relics from that Codex, he shitstomped just about ever thing he touched.

    Cultists with fear actually won two combats because of failed fear check 😛
    Prescience was money when I used it on my Horrors to put a few hull points on some flyers.

    Good Codex, definitely the way to go when you want to do competitive CSMs.

    • Reecius
      Reecius March 17, 2014 1:51 pm #

      Fear causing Cultsists, that is awesome! lol!

      But yes, the old book may as well not exist, Crimson Slaughter all day.

    • Avatar
      Tirelion March 17, 2014 4:13 pm #

      unfortunately you were cheating… Crimson Slaughter and Daemons as allies. The supplement does not give that as an option. Just CSM.

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        elphilo March 18, 2014 4:35 am #

        The codex says the rules in the supplement is used in addition to those found in CSM. So they can ally with daemons. If that were true then all the SM supplements couldn’t ally with anyone else because it doesn’t specifically name them as SM as well. The allies section is in there to say its cool to ally with the base CSM book.

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          Tirelion March 18, 2014 4:42 am #

          I really wish I could agree with that as I would love to see daemons and CS allied together. There is absolutely no basis or rule to support your claim however. There is NO permissive statement to that fact anywhere in the rules and the ally matrix is NOT part of ANY codex. I don’t know how the SM supplements read because I don’t have any of them. What I do know is that the specific ally wording and wording of use for the supplement (see my other comments below) do not in any way allow you to use the normal ally matrix (which is BTW part of the Core Rules, again, not part of a codex).

        • Avatar
          Tirelion March 18, 2014 4:50 am #

          Just looked it up, it would seem that the reason that SM supplements may ally to their parent book because the SM Codex itself (unique to that codex) states it’s ally rules, in being able to “self ally” with other detachments using different chapter tactics. Which also gives the SM supplements the ability to ally to each other. You should find however that YOU DO NOT have permission to use the supplements for SM and be able to ally them to any of the normal SM allies. So you really shouldn’t be doing Sentinels of Terra with Tau for example. That is the RAW. Whether or not that is what was intended is different entirely and I would love to see TOs put it to bed and just allow them to use the parent codex’s ally matrix.

          • Avatar
            elphilo March 18, 2014 7:16 am

            You treat a Crimson Slaughter army exactly like a CSM army, except they get some additional rules. Meaning if you want to find who you ally with you look at the ally matrix with them being CSM. The allies statement in the supplement just allows them to additionally ally with CSM as battle brothers. It doesn’t matter where the ally index is located. They’re treated like a CSM army.

            I know this is hearsay, but GW Digital stated that supplements “count as a detachment from their parent codex for allies purposes.”

            That’s probably the closest thing to an FAQ you’re ever going to get.

          • Avatar
            Tirelion March 18, 2014 7:45 am

            Except that to say you treat a CS army exactly like a CSM army is absolutely NOT how the supplement Is worded, and is, frankly, making up rules language. The supplement states that you use the “army list and special rules provided in CSM”. Army list, that is a list of units, and the special rules associated. That does not, in any way, refer to the ally matrix cited in the big rule book.

          • Avatar
            elphilo March 18, 2014 7:53 am

            It says in addition does it not? The supplement is an addition to the codex. Not a stand alone codex. The allies portion of the rules is additional rules.

          • Avatar
            elphilo March 18, 2014 7:54 am

            Additional rules as in the same as CSM but this also happens as well.

      • Avatar
        Smurfalypse March 18, 2014 7:22 am #

        This is a bit offensive to straight up call me a cheater. . .

        Did you know I asked the TO if it was okay if I played them so soon after the Codex was released?

        Did you also know that I verified with him that Daemons can be used as Battle Brother allies?

        Did you also know that you are grossly wrong? The rules in the Crimson Slaughter Codex says “The rules below are used IN ADDITION to the the CSM Codex”, their ally rules are just below this. . . it is just clarifiying that you can take CSM as a Battle Brother as well. In addition is very specific wording, so it works.

        • Avatar
          Tirelion March 18, 2014 8:11 am #

          Obviously if your TO said it was ok, then that’s cool, I am just saying that the RAW doesn’t support it. I apologize for the offence. ;(

      • Avatar
        Smurfalypse March 18, 2014 7:23 am #

        Also, your mom cheated on your dad. . . That’s why you look like a plumber!


  4. Avatar
    Novastar87 March 17, 2014 11:50 am #

    To bad this wasn’t a word bearers suppliment, possessed as troops ” gal’vorbok” check, better dark apostle stuff check, more in tune with magic… I mean the warp check, just missing deamon allies and it would be perfect, oh well still a great suppliment

    • Avatar
      Slaede March 17, 2014 11:57 am #

      Crimson Slaughter can ally with Daemons. It is a supplement to the main CSM book, not its own codex. Raukaan and Sentinels of Terra don’t specifically state they are allowed to ally with anyone.

      • Avatar
        Tirelion March 17, 2014 4:15 pm #

        nope the supplement says specifically who they can ally with, and the only option you get is CSM. No where does it say that they use the same allies matrix as CSM.

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    Paolo March 17, 2014 12:00 pm #

    Actually they do have the same CSM allies matrix, the part about allying with CSM is just an addition to the standard rules for codex CSM (that they follow unless specified otherwise, like in the relics section)

  6. Avatar
    Fred March 17, 2014 12:02 pm #

    I am not sure where you get that they cannot ally with black legion, nowhere did I read that…This is a codex supplement which basically means that it is an addition to any rules the CSM already have……

    Unless i see a phrase that says that i cannot ally with BL, I am pretty sure i can…For example, RELICS OF THE CRIMSON SLAUGHTER specifically forbids taking relics from the main codex, but ALLIES does not forbid any form of alliance allowed to CSM….

    If you read that , could you please let me know where, I wuold really like to see it….

    I would find that incredibly stupid since they talk about it the the Fluff..Abbadon makes them an important part of his black crusade….

    I agree with all of you that this supplement is amamzing, a great addition to CSM….that being said, i would really like to know where it says that i cannot ally with BL.

    Great articles by the way..

    • Avatar
      Tirelion March 17, 2014 4:17 pm #

      Remember that 40k is a “permissive” rule set. Unless you are specifically given permission to ally with someone then you can’t. The rules don’t have to say you can’t, they just have to say whether or not you CAN.

  7. Avatar
    Novastar87 March 17, 2014 12:05 pm #

    I mite be misreading some text, so before will answer more, I’ll check when I get off work, but if they allow with Deamons then I’m taking a sharpy and crossing of crimson slaughter and putting word bearers lol

    • Avatar
      White925 March 18, 2014 12:56 pm #

      People are arguing that they can only ally with CSM as that is all it says in the entry. I would have to disagree as we all know that is meant to be the same as SM and you can clearly read the ally portion both ways. I believe they can ally with all the same armies just like CSM so I misspoke when I said they couldn’t ally with BL.

  8. Avatar
    EvilLairChandler March 17, 2014 12:13 pm #

    It states in the supplement that Crimson Slaughter may be taken as an ally with Codex: Chaos Space Marines as battle brothers. That said, they cannot ally with Daemons or Black Legion as I understand it.

    • Avatar
      bigpig March 17, 2014 12:21 pm #

      Isn’t there some GW comment on supplements that they follow all the ally rules for their parent codex?

      • Adam
        Adam March 17, 2014 1:37 pm #

        Correct, the allies chart in general doesn’t mention the expansions, so saying that CS couldn’t ally with BL would pretty much be saying that nobody could ally with a supplement unless that combination is explicitly mentioned in their rules.

        • Avatar
          Tirelion March 17, 2014 4:14 pm #

          the combinations ARE explicitly mention in the rules.

          • Avatar
            Indulgence March 21, 2014 9:17 am

            Just because I like dicking with RAW-lovers. Here’s one really fun way of how to read it so that you can ally with the CSM matrix:

            Crimson Slaughter book, white touted as a “Codex”, is not in fact a codex, but a Codex SUPPLEMENT (It’s stated there on the cover, specifically a “Codex: Chaos Space Marine Supplement). Therefore the Ally Matrix does not care about it, because, as stated in the Ally Matrix, you determine allies via the Codex from where your Primary Detachment comes from (which, in this case, cannot be Crimson Slaughter because it’s not a codex).

            Crimson Slaughter Codex’s rules say that these are “In addition” to the rules in the army list presented in Codex Chaos Space Marines, we’ve established that.

            Finally, the wording in the Ally Matrix state that the Allies is chosen based on the CODEX of the Primary Detachment. Backtrack to the part where you select your Primary Detachment in the Core rulebook. It first describes the force organization chart used for a primary detachment, then it says:

            “One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list in the relevant codex.”

            It specifically references an Army List from a Relevant Codex. There is no Army List Present in Crimson Slaughter, nor is the book a Codex proper. The Crimson Slaughter book instructs you to choose your army with the army list presented in Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

            Therefore, as a point of reference, the Ally Matrix would look to Codex:Chaos Space Marines, as it would try to find a “codex” for Crimson Slaughter, but as it is not one, and the book specifically references to Codex: Chaos Space Marines as the origin of it’s army list (and by extension, the Primary Detachment) then it would consider Codex Chaos Space Marine as the Primary Detachment’s “Codex”.

            Now, why does this not apply for Legion of the Damned, Imperial Knights or Inquisitor? They flat out say they’re Codexes on their covers, which frees them from any one codex as a parent, and the Ally Matrix would look have to look in those specific books for ally matrixes, as they do not exist at all on the primary matrix.

            Why did they have to state that they can ally with CSM? Because they are CSM. There’s no box where CSM intersects with CSM, meaning that normally there’d be no interaction for allies. It grants Crimson Slaughter CSM detachments the ability to ally with itself. It could be restating the rules, but this might simply mean that OTHER armies can’t ally with themselves.

            Indeed 40k is a game of permission, and nowhere is it stated that gives you permission to count Crimson Slaughter as a Codex for the purposes of Allies.

          • Reecius
            Reecius March 21, 2014 10:53 am

            I like your argument, and agree with it, myself.

          • Avatar
            Tirelion March 21, 2014 1:03 pm

            You aren’t necessarily “dicking” with me. You gave me exactly what I was hoping someone would show me. A good argument using existing rules language to prove something. Which you have done admirably. You didn’t need to make up rules language. I certainly missed that part of the rules wording and I am happy that you have stated it without just saying the equivalent of “cuz that how it’s sposed to be be!” I think a case could still be made going the other way, but you have given me enough to work with so that I can feel ok running Daemons with my Crimson slaughter. Something I really want to do! I just want to be able to do it without feeling like I am cheating my friends! I appreciate the thought that you put into this justification. Thank you!

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      dirgepiper March 17, 2014 12:25 pm #

      But…. NOOOOOOO!!!!
      there goes my Wordbearer army!!!

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      elphilo March 17, 2014 12:48 pm #

      They follow the CSM book in addition to the rules presented in the supplement. The allies section just lets you ally with the base CSM book. Otherwise they follow the CSM ally matrix.

      This really is a game changer for chaos. I’m super excited to see this come out. That sword is awesome, especially because the restrictions on the artifacts is one per army, not character. So you can have a nurgle lord with the sword, the horns and the Daemonheart on a bike just kicking butts and taking names!

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      RyanL March 17, 2014 12:55 pm #

      Black Legion says: “In addition to following the Allies Matrix for Codex: Chaos Space Marines, Black Legion detachments and Codex: Chaos Space Marines detachments may ally together, treating each other as Battle Brothers.”

      So, since Chaos Space Marines can take Crimson Slaughter allies (I think it’s reasonable to say that they have essentially been added to the allies matrix), you could take a Black Legion army with Crimson Slaughter allies.

      I assume the opposite is also true but don’t have the Crimson Slaughter supplement to check.

      • Avatar
        Tirelion March 17, 2014 4:20 pm #

        Unfortunately it’s not the same. The exact wording on allies from the Crimson Slaughter supplement is this:

        “A Crimson Slaughter detachment can ally with a Codex: Chaos Space Marines detachment as Battle Brothers (and vice versa).”

        That is ALL of the exact wording. No mention of using the general allies matrix for CSM. The only permission you are given is to ally to or with CSM as battle bros.

        • Adam
          Adam March 17, 2014 5:17 pm #

          It also says that the rules in the supplement are in addition to the normal CSM rules. Nothing about that rule contradicts the ally relationships the army has with other codices.

          • Avatar
            Tirelion March 17, 2014 5:35 pm

            It does though, because what CS can ally with is specifically stated. I would also put out there that the ally matrix is part of the BRB not part of an individual codex and is separate from the codex rules themselves.

            “A Crimson Slaughter army is chosen using the army list presented in Codex: Chaos Space Marines. It also has a series of supplemental rules (presented below) that can be used in addition to those found in Codex: Chaos Space Marines.”

            It is stated there that you use the “army list”. The ally matrix is not part of the “army list” nor is it specifically part of a Codex’s rules. It’s part of the main rule book.

            “A Crimson Slaughter detachment can ally with a Codex: Chaos Space Marines detachment as Battle Brothers (and vice versa)”

            That specifically gives you what the ally options for Crimson Slaughter are and only give permission for them to ally to CSM. For them to ally to anyone else (and I really really hope that that I am wrong here) there needs to be a permissive statement somewhere in the rules that allows it. As of right now, I don’t see that.

          • Reecius
            Reecius March 17, 2014 5:38 pm

            I think that is the correct way to read it, too, but it is confusing.

          • Adam
            Adam March 18, 2014 8:06 am

            Yeah, Reece. Since no other book in all of the game is restricted to a single army for allies, and since supplements are additional rules for a codex, until FAQ’d otherwise, I think it’s safest to assume that the rules presented are purely in addition to the normal CSM rules. 🙂

          • Reecius
            Reecius March 18, 2014 9:27 am

            I can accept that, although by RAW it is pretty clear that that isn’t the case…but then, RAW counts for less and less these days, lol!

  9. Avatar
    Chaos Reigns March 17, 2014 12:47 pm #

    While I generally have only a positive view on the new supplement, and I like the idea of Divination for chaos, I’m not so sure it’ll make Chaos a whole lot better. With no guarantees past Prescience, I have an issue with building lists around powers you may not get. While there are definitely more options that can only make the book stronger, I don’t know if it’ll bring them up to proper tournament tier.

  10. Avatar
    Corbeau March 17, 2014 1:09 pm #

    ”see them driven before you and hear the lamentations of their women!”
    Nice Conan quote Franky!

    • Avatar
      White925 March 18, 2014 1:02 pm #

      Haha thank you!

  11. Avatar
    Manxol March 17, 2014 1:28 pm #

    I’m pretty exited from this suplement… I’m gona run this, unless I plan to ally with my deamons… and I can easy see a list with Be’lakor, the divinitation biker sorcerer, 2-3 units of nurgle spawns and 3 maulerfiends… and maybe an hades helldrake. Yes, hades… if this guy can reroll to hit he will just kill 2 enemy flyers each turn.

    I think this codex is superior to the original one. Yes… possesed as troops is just meh… but in elites they are double-meh! Fear is pretty useles sinse half of enemies got ATSKNF… and when they haven’t got it is just somethin casual. But it is something better to have with you than haven’t got anything.

    And the relics… they look to me pretty balanced, there aren’t cheap ones like the axe or overpriced ones, like the murderer sword.

  12. Avatar
    BBF March 17, 2014 1:35 pm #

    I have to disagree with what you said. I have been running CSM as my primary with allied daemons. At a recent GT I beat ScreamerStar the first round (opponent won the award for best Daemon player) and also beat Jetseer Council.

    CS gives us more options if you play double FOC .

    • Avatar
      winterman March 17, 2014 1:54 pm #

      CS doesn’t really do anything for double FOC that it doen’t do for single FOC. Double FOC requires you to use the same codex for the secondary and primary ally slot. So if Crimson Slaughter is an ally it has to be in both parts of the double FOC.

      • Avatar
        Black Blow Fly March 17, 2014 5:37 pm #

        Take CSM as two primary detachments… Crimson Slaughter as one allied slot and Chaos daemons as the other. Totally legal.

        • Avatar
          Tirelion March 17, 2014 6:09 pm #

          Raining on parades all over the place tonight…..nope. “…taking an extra primary detachment allows you to take an additional allied detachment (which must be from the same codex as your other allied detachment)….” pg. 110 BRB, first column, second paragraph. =(

          • Avatar
            Smurfalypse March 18, 2014 7:35 am

            Cept you are wrong on the first count with not allying with Daemons, also you are intensly dense and stubborn.

            The ally section you keep quoting is in the section that says “these are in addtion to CSM Codex”. . . But you refuse to read that apparently so 😛

            You are however right on this count, so you are batting 500!

          • Avatar
            Tirelion March 18, 2014 7:53 am

            I agree that I am stubborn, but only because people keep trying to argue their point by making up rules language. Again, I have posted this already but the exact wording (which yes I have read) is:

            “A Crimson Slaughter army is chosen using the army list presented in Codex: Chaos Space Marines. It also has a series of supplemental rules (presented below) that can be used in addition to those found in Codex: Chaos Space Marines.”


            “A Crimson Slaughter detachment can ally with a Codex: Chaos Space Marines detachment as Battle Brothers (and vice versa)”

            It says specifically “…than can be used in addition to those found in CODEX: CHAOS SPACE MARINES…” I would challenge you sir to reference the page in the Chaos Space Marine codex that says ANYTHING about allies. You will not, you will find it in the big rule book, which, last I checked, was NOT the CSM codex. If I am wrong, then I am wrong and will apologize to everyone. But if someone is actually going to prove me wrong on this they need to reference actual rules. Not made up inference using language that does not exist.

          • Avatar
            Smurfalypse March 18, 2014 8:04 am

            In addtion is in addition, rules below are the rules below. Anything below that line is in addtion to whatever CSM do. Period.

            You can run your CS without Daemons but the rest of the world will 😛

          • Adam
            Adam March 18, 2014 8:07 am

            Yeah, being stubborn doesn’t make you right, it just makes you louder when you’re wrong. 🙂

          • Avatar
            Tirelion March 18, 2014 8:16 am

            For the love of god, if someone lets me run Daemon allies then I will.

            That said.

            The supplement just isn’t worded that way. I won’t continue to argue it though since we just keep going around in circles. I just don’t know how “…in addition to those found in Codex: Chaos Space Marines…” turns into “use the ally matrix found in the main Warhammer 40k rule book”. What I am looking for is for someone to reference some rules text somewhere, anywhere, that gives permission to make that transition.

    • Avatar
      White925 March 18, 2014 1:04 pm #

      Yeah but that requires Double FOC not very many tournaments allow that. I would love Double FOC tournaments but you cannot count on them for making a tournament season list.

      • Avatar
        Mercutioh March 18, 2014 3:39 pm #

        Double FOC? Frankies Taking 8 Heldrakes and the world shall Tremble!!!!

        • Reecius
          Reecius March 18, 2014 5:00 pm #

          He’ll still lose, lol!

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    michael March 17, 2014 4:48 pm #

    Now I can make a nightlords army…..cause the whole army causes fear BOO YAH!

    • Reecius
      Reecius March 17, 2014 4:55 pm #

      Yeah, and access to Divination helps so much, too!

      • Avatar
        Black Blow Fly March 17, 2014 5:41 pm #

        It really does !

      • Avatar
        winterman March 17, 2014 11:22 pm #

        The divination is fluffy too isn’t it? Like didn’t Nighhaunter have precog about his own death?

        • Reecius
          Reecius March 19, 2014 3:35 pm #

          Yup! And Ahirman too, TOTALLY should have Divination.

      • Avatar
        michael March 19, 2014 3:11 pm #

        Talos was a precog as well. I mean he had crazy slaughter induced visions…but same difference!

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    vonvilkee March 17, 2014 7:22 pm #

    Possessed as troops! Really, like really, really? I know they suck but as troops I could take two smallish squads, that third hq I always want with chaos and have some fun!

  15. Avatar
    EvilLairChandler March 18, 2014 5:20 am #

    I read a post on the GW Digital Editions Facebook today. The question was actually asked prior to Crimson Slaughter’s release. The GW rep said that the detachment from these supplements (Crimson Slaughter, Sentinels of Terra, Iron Hands clan, etc) use the same ally matrix as their parent codex.

    Again, this was prior to the release of the Crimson Slaughter supplement, which seems to have very specific wording on who they are allowed to ally with unlike Black Legion which specified they followed the same ally format as their parent codex and could also ally with Codex: CSM.

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      Tirelion March 18, 2014 6:25 am #

      yeah, the wording seems to be very different for Crimson Slaughter when compared to other supplements. I wonder which intern they had writing it this time. :/

      • Adam
        Adam March 18, 2014 8:09 am #

        Looks like they had less room on the page, word count is important in physical publishing.

        My guess is that they were expecting people to extrapolate that when they say these rules are in addition to the CSM rules, that they don’t totally replace them, except where stated otherwise.

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          Tirelion March 18, 2014 8:35 am #

          yes…in addition to the rules found in Codex Chaos Space marines…I have looked in that codex…front, back, sideways….I don’t see any ally rules at all in that codex. That’s where my hangup is. But I submit, i’ll be playing CS with daemon allies until someone tells me I’m cheating.

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            Crisp Mini March 19, 2014 2:30 pm

            It is a supplement so follows the parent codex. They’ve added:

            “A Crimson Slaughter detachment can ally with a Codex: Chaos Space Marines detachment as Battle Brothers (and vice versa)”

            So that CS may ally w/ CSM, otherwise you are not able to ally w/ yourself as both lists would be CSM. It is not explicit as it says “can ally,” not, “may only ally.” “Can” just grants allowance, but does not in any way limit the rules from the parent Codex, which it follows.

            Sorry if I’m beating a dead horse, I did see you will run your CS w/ Daemons, but you don’t seemed convinced.

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            Tirelion March 20, 2014 7:33 am

            Let the beating of the skeletal horse continue!

            The part that everyone seems to be missing is that the rules for allies are not in Codex: Chaos Space Marines, have nothing to do with Codex: Chaos Space Marines, are not found ANYWHERE in Codex: Space Marines. So using the rules for Codex: Chaos Space Marines in the supplement is correct…..but the ally rules are in the CORE Rulebook and have nothing to do with the codex.

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    Charles Tracy March 18, 2014 11:38 am #

    Ya sounds a bit Dakka-ish in here. If I use this book rule for the purpose of changing how my csm codex will play I’m going to use the csm allies matrix printed in the brb. PERIOD.

    All this bullshit about raw, rai, permissive, falls on my deaf ear. Anyone with a 7th grade reading level can see what’s going on and do it that way. If not ROLL for it.

    Rant off.

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    Lord Krungharr March 20, 2014 4:50 pm #

    I see Tirelion’s point, and that is a strong argument for not RAW permitting CS to ally with Daemons, but a very extreme conservative one. He is saying that because there is a sentence regarding Allies in the CS supplement, that is the ONLY permissible use of Allies for CS. However, I and many many others would say that’s a clarification in case someone was wondering if they had to pick and choose between using CSM or CS in an army, and not both.

    If the CS uses all rules for a CSM army and just has some extra rules in addition to that, that’s the permission given. Then if the Allies Matrix is part of the rules for a given army, then by some sort of mathematical or logic term I’m forgetting the CS uses the Allies Matrix that CSM uses, and therefore can be Battle Bros. with Daemons.

    The Allies Matrix must be part of the rules for a given army, as it’s not in most of the Codices now, and yet they can still have Allies of various sorts.

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      Tirelion March 20, 2014 6:34 pm #

      Yes! And I would point out that I am only arguing for RAW, not for intent. I am fully with my local group and events to allow the use of the CSM ally matrix for Crimson Slaughter. I am really not sure it is a clarification though it read’s pretty clear. What I am saying is that there is a false assumption that the ally matrix is part of the rules for a given army. The ally matrix is part of the Core rules for 40k. The supplement is very clear in that it gives permission to use the supplement in addition to the “Army List” found in Codex: Chaos Space Marines. For the army list in a codex to somehow magically include the allies matrix from the core rulebook is a bad assumption. If this were a court of law and you tried to make that kind of connection through false inference, you’d lose the case. There is just no connecting language between the two. Like I’ve said, the space marine codex and supplements circumvent this partly because the SM codex allows for allies (so they can ally with themselves) within the codex itself and is a bit unique in that way. As for intent, the fluff for CS does not show them working with any other factions, including daemons, other than OTHER chaos space marines. So fluff wise I’m not sure they were meant to. Seriously though I am done now. 😉 #thehorseisdeadsixfeetunder #thehorseisnowdust

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    vonvilkee March 20, 2014 6:59 pm #

    I’m also in the CS only get to ally with chaos, and I’m planning on playing CS. There are no downsides that I can see so until I see GW clarification, I’m going to be safe and assume the lack of allies are their downside the con if you will to the many pros of this book.

    As far as I can tell you could take any of the existing named characters and now they cause fear too! Hooray!

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    Mr E March 20, 2014 11:05 pm #

    Dude get a room for your codex, and don’t come out until every single page is stuck together, I want to be unable to interpret RAW or RAI, this is the ultra troll Tirelion, let me just tell you that you are cheating, ok man guess what, taking GW rules as Harvard LAW is like taking NASCAR as a professional sport, sure there is a lot of $$$ in it and there are fancy trophy wives, but at the end of the day they drive in F@*k$#@ 500 circles burn rubber, run through tires, occasionally crash(why about 80% of the people watching are there), and generally just burn through though sands of gallons of super high octane fuel, at the end of the day they pop open the champagne and get wasted,

    If you want to sit there and lawyer on things like ” this doesn’t say that is what you can do” without looking and going “gee for all intents and purposes this is CSM supplement and follows the allied matrix with no exceptions to the CSM matrix” bc otherwise we are not playing a game but spending endless time online arguing pointlessly that in fact at the next tourney we will all 100% of attendants be arriving at the conclusion that we will indeed be taking crimsom slaughter with deamons allies to infest each others hearts with sinful chaos.

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    Mr E March 20, 2014 11:12 pm #

    ya and all those FAQ’s that GW has always released on time with problems to fix this plane imbalance or melta plasma vets in chimera for 100 points or 9 Valkyries in 1850 or god aweful seer council stupid D star of 1200 points. People getting all panties in a bunch over lords of war, guess what I say bring the super heavies switch up the meta yet again, this ed has been insane might as well get a little crazier so we can all balance out the game for ourselves, also i am a firm believer in needing proper terrain for tables in competitive scenes and that even bigger and more numerous LOS blocking terrain pieces are what will herald the changes and bring the game full circle as small units outflanking and infiltrating together take out a knight titan, solid infantry positions are fortified on objectives, and brave champions are being forged in the crucible of battle,


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    Mr E March 21, 2014 8:31 am #

    Her i think this sums it up nicely for our troll read this over look over the diagrams look at page 2 of the link not just the 1st page and it will all be clear, codex supplements are literally the original codex with some SUPPLEMENTAL RULES for their mane codex’s.

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    Lex March 21, 2014 8:32 am #

    Here are the rules in basic rule book that allow you to ally with whoever CSM allies with in the Allies Matrix:

    “Find the row for the codex of your primary detachment on the left side of the matrix. Then find the column for the codex of your potential allies at the top of the matrix.”

    The codex that Crimson Slaughter detachment is chosen from is Codex: Chaos Space Marine, not Codex: Crimson Slaughter.

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      Tirelion March 21, 2014 11:03 am #

      Perfect, this is exactly the language I was looking for. I appreciate you putting this up (and not just calling me a troll over and over. ;p )

      Definitely the best show of proof up to this point. Thank you.

      • Avatar
        Mr E March 21, 2014 11:05 am #


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    Mr E March 21, 2014 8:37 am #

    ya the problem with games workshop is the have naughty lawn gnomes editing their content and they have no clue how to lay out paragraph’s in an order that trolls like this can make sense of a rule-set, it was baffling how many times I had to flip back and forth through sections of this rule book to figure out how things are supposed to interact in this ed, poorly written and lacking proper references, you literally have to use the glossary at the back till you memorize page #’s.

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