Raw Dogger on the Space Marines

Raw Dogger: Readers be ware!

Raw Dogger: Readers be ware!

Raw Dogger from Kim Chi Games is rude, crude and opinionated! He is also funny as hell and writes for an adult audience. Read at your own peril!

Hello everyone!  I’m back from my wargaming and blogging hiatus (my real world job got INTENSE!!11!) and Jesus tap dancing Christ wouldn’t you know it a fucking codex gets released.   Not just any codex, mind you, but the codex for the army that started it all for our socially awkward hobby, The Space Marines.   I’ve been a Space Marine player since back in the 4th edition and like most other people in this hobby I have been growing sick and tired of my Marines collecting dust on my hobby shelves.  They definitely needed a shot in the arm and I was REALLY excited that they were finally being updated for the 6th edition.  Last Friday I made sure to get out of work early enough to get to my local store, Frontline Gaming, so that I could get my hands on this 400 page monster.  I sped home like a fat guy with a rapidly cooling bucket of KFC chicken and did a 360 into my covered parking spot.  After kicking in the front door I threw the cat out the got’ dang window (I didn’t have time for her shit) and popped open the codex.

After a few hours of reading and re-reading the unit entries and staring at all of the shiny new toys and pictures it occurred to me.  The codex was about as MEH as the last but cost around double the price.  THANKS, OBAMA.  The economy!  The new codex didn’t even remotely fix the issues the Marines are having on the tabletop in the 6th edition.  Mainly the obsolescence of the 3+ armor save and the complete erosion of cover.   Ironically, this new codex has actually made their own units WORSE.  While it’s very cool that they got the Dark Angels points reductions ,they unfortunately followed the Dark Angel’s tactics of getting Hell Draked, Blade Stormed, and Riptided off of the top 10 tournament tables.  As stated above, one of the new shinies that the Space Marines received was the Grav Gun.  A weapon that wounds against the target’s armor save and automatically immobilizes vehicles on a penetration roll of a 6.  Are people still bringing terminators or Land Raiders?  Not now they aren’t!  A lot of people are saying how great the new anti-flyer tanks are.  REALLY?  You basically have a quad gun on an armor 12 tank that does not have Interceptor.  NICE ONE.  Oh they missile launching tank that has one shot and if you miss you have the potential to hit the target at a later time (that is, if they don’t elect to just go off the table).  AWESOME.

The sad fact is that this codex fails to address the current issues with Warhammer 40k 6th edition.  Armor 3 no longer matters.  With so many weapons that are not only AP 2-3 but also ignore cover Space Marines are essentially obsolete.  This codex has no way to effectively deal with the 2 Hell Drake, 2 Riptide, 6+ Wave Serpent tournament lists that you are seeing on the tables.  Not to mention what Demons are capable of.  So while it is cool that the codex gives us an Eternal Warrior storm shield and a flaming sword that is strength 7 AP 2, I believe in the next few months when we see the results of the next large tournaments we will see that the codex (while adding to the variety of the 40k universe) did little to change the current Tau/Eldar/Demon dominance.

 

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51 Responses to “Raw Dogger on the Space Marines”

  1. The voice September 16, 2013 12:32 am #

    Couldnt disagree more. The only issue ive had to date is a deamon list that DIDNT have loads of deamon princes and was more that screamer council + bajillion dogs buid. Prince heavy, guard tau, eldar even the nova winning ovesa star type lists…played them and beat them with marines in the last week.

    • Jason
      Rawdogger September 16, 2013 6:04 am #

      Well, please write to me on my blog the next time you win a major tournament with your Space Marine list. That was what this post was about, Space Marines not being able to win (MAJOR) tournaments. I’m not interested in the circumstantial evidence of people beating their friends on game night with a Space Marines list. This isn’t me being snarky. If you do win a (MAJOR) tournament with a Space Marine list in the 6th edition I would like to know about it and congratulate you appropriately.

      • Billyjoeray September 16, 2013 8:52 am #

        Well, to be fair. the book hasn’t been out long enough for anyone to have played in a “Major” Tournament yet.

      • winterman September 16, 2013 9:07 am #

        I’ll lay down a fiver on Ben Mohlie winning a major event with Space Marines should he end up coming back to playing them in 6ed. Which is really me just saying good players win big events, not codexes.

        • Reecius
          Reecius September 16, 2013 9:23 am #

          Totally agree.

        • The voice September 16, 2013 11:12 am #

          theres a bat rep kick about now with bens new marine list, pedro rhino rush, if anyones insterested

          • Johan September 16, 2013 2:45 pm
            #

            Can you share a link to the Report please, I am failing at the internet 🙁

          • steven morrow September 16, 2013 3:26 pm
            #

            On spiky bits blog

      • The voice September 16, 2013 10:56 am #

        no i just play etc players and tourney winner, again, not being snarky. I just do, im very lucky to live in nottingham and have a very high calibre of opponent.

      • The voice September 16, 2013 10:56 am #

        no i just play etc players and tourney winners, again, not being snarky. I just do, im very lucky to live in nottingham and have a very high calibre of opponent.

      • Capt M September 17, 2013 9:43 am #

        “The new codex didn’t even remotely fix the issues the Marines are having on the tabletop in the 6th edition. Mainly the obsolescence of the 3+ armor save and the complete erosion of cover”

        What did you expect, every marine to get an inv save?

        • Jason
          Raw Dogger September 17, 2013 4:04 pm #

          Yes I was hoping they would get a 2+ invulnerable save but god damn GW screwed me again!

  2. skari September 16, 2013 3:43 am #

    I feel like although Tau/Eldar and Deamons are still up there, this book gives them a hell of a better chance than the last one…

    • Jason
      Rawdogger September 16, 2013 5:59 am #

      I agree with this. I also think this codex will bring more variety of army builds, which is always good for the hobby. Honestly, after more play testing and seeing what other people are doing there is a lot that I DO like about this codex. But I stand by my argument that you will not see Marines at the top of any major tournaments as long as Hell Drake and Riptide Spam exist. Not to mention flying circus.

      • The voice September 16, 2013 11:02 am #

        riptide spam …not so sure, think they can take em. Hell drakes (at least over here) are dying out..mainy cos of Tau, but agreed it wouldnt be fun. Flying circus is 50/50. Prince heavy is a game, if they start taking lots of dogs i think you have a problem. Luckily over here the prince version is way more popular

  3. David September 16, 2013 4:07 am #

    Against riptides: sternguards i drop pods or gravturions in land raiders. Against helldrakes: the hunter (bring two) and stormtalons can bring it down, and some of the chapter tactices (U, IF and S) gives you some chance with regular units. Against waveserpents: skyfire works against skimmers so the stalker is actually good for hunting WS. Also, combi-gravs i droppods can be effective here.

    • Jason
      Rawdogger September 16, 2013 5:48 am #

      It sounds like you would tailor your list to be successful. Unless you regularly take a 260 point unit in a 275 point Land Raider in your tournament list. Not to mention all of your Heavy Support choices (remember those two Hunters you were going to bring?).

      • David September 16, 2013 11:38 am #

        Valid points, I just point out that there are handy tools in the book. You will never be able to match everything, you have to read the meta. As for now I would go for a drop pod grav squad (or allied wolfguards med en runepriest) and one or two stalkers/hunters. In that way you have some answers for wave serpents and MC.

        • Jason
          Raw Dogger September 16, 2013 2:53 pm #

          Interestingly enough, the new Marine codex has made me include Coteaz and a Strike Squad in almost all of my builds just to counter the amount of drop pod armies you will be seeing with this codex.

          • steven morrow September 16, 2013 3:29 pm
            #

            Assuming the riptide doesnt intercept you with a overcharged ion accelerator shot

  4. Baal Viper September 16, 2013 5:22 am #

    I think GW messed up and made the Tau and Eldar Codicies to powerful. This Space Marine Codex seams to be a legitimate codex with a reasonable power level and is there for touted at being “weak.” While I agree that they do not have any of the flashy auto include units that many other books have, what we do have is a balanced codex with lots of tactical options. That is what the game needs not another Tau or Eldar book… I think that a SM player can beat these tournament lists, but will have to outplay their opponent in order to do so… and that in my book is the point, not to take a list that wins simply based on its underpointed sillyness.

    SM will not out perform Tau or Eldar assuming equal player skill. The Tau/ Eldar need an FAQ nerf (like prevent the Serpant Shield from shooting) in order to truly “bring balance to the Force.” Tau and Eldar should also not be battle brothers as the USR cross over is much to abbusive…

    • Fulcrum September 17, 2013 4:39 am #

      Seconded

  5. The Voice September 16, 2013 6:09 am #

    Well if anyone wants to know what ive been wrecking face with for the past week ,here is is. Im suprised not many people have been going on about the flyers yet. Talon are GREAT now, plus being able in escort a talon makes for super cool turn 2 or 3’s just as your bikes are really getting stuck in.

    Khan on bike
    rune priest on bike – chooser (maybe)
    rune priest on bike

    5 x 5 bike with 2 grav guns
    5 gh with flamer

    2 storm talon with lascannons (if i take chooser one gets skyhammer ..still not sure on this tweek yet)

    storm ravem las, mm
    2 x thunderfire.

    Frankly the synergy is heart warming to me, concusive and jaws and outflank and acute sences is just great. Its a list that i really enjoy using even after just a week.

    oh and i played the nova winning list with in and my opponent conceeded turn 3…just saying :P..but i did go first which is big with this list…the trick is when you go second is…is your douchey keep away tactics good enough till your reserves come in..say outflankers and flyers…and then you turn round and go for the throat like a cornered animal.

    • Jason
      Raw Dogger September 16, 2013 10:15 am #

      I like your moves.

  6. Baal Viper September 16, 2013 6:27 am #

    I am glad you have had such success against the Tau, and I hope it keeps up. Though when running that many grav weapons and double Jaws its honestly little wonder you clobbered Tau. Your packing the perfect weapons for the job. Not sure it’s a TAC list though. Wraith Wing for example will give that list huge problems.

    That being said. I am glad you are having success agains the Tau Tide lists out there.

    • The Voice September 16, 2013 6:36 am #

      Do you think wrait wing would? I mean over here its died a death a bit and so you can only beat whats put in front of your, hence the list looking like it does. But even so, 2 jaws vs i2 wraiths? which i can hit and run away from to do again and again? and grav weapons making a mockery of the destroyer lords?…who knows…if yet to play it. All i know is that in england its rips/wrait knights and serpents, and this list can come at them.
      The great thing about the marine i feel is that if and when the meta changes they will have the tools to change with it, rather than being left by the wayside as thier “build” becomes obsolete.

      • Jason Brown September 16, 2013 7:32 am #

        I am rolling with two knights and two squads of wraithguard. Now that these assault bike lists are popping up to deal with the Tau threat, I have moved to both units having scythes rather than just the one. The one thing that that list currently has that gives me problems are the rune priests. The backbone to my list are my spiritseer council and the way the rune staff is currently working, will do alot to shut down my seers. The air is interesting, and I though it might be fun to do an Iron Hands air force one list (three ravens, three talons).

        That being said, you will have a crap ton of problems with a serpent spam list. I have seen some with 8. You dont have any real way to give your thunderfire cannons a reasonable save. I would look to the 4++ of a pad. With all the reserves that you have, what is on ethe table turn 2 and 3 is going to take a beating…hard. As an eldar player I would use my knights and get rid of those thunderfire cannons. and serpent the crap out of your bike dudes. Granted i only have 3, but its still alot of mind bullets. I would very much want to dump those priests with a quickness so I could gimp or buff the hell outa of stuff. Horrify and psychic scream are nuts amongst other things.

        Not that your list isnt strong, but it is most certainly not an “I win button”. It would be ALOT more fun to play against than the tau nut huggers that just roll dice.

        • The voice September 16, 2013 9:12 am #

          Oh i agree its far from auto win. To date i havent had much probs with serpents, but the kicker…the real kicker…it ive gone first each time so far. When going second i may have to get creative with the tactics and hope there is some los blocking terrain

  7. Baal Viper September 16, 2013 6:59 am #

    I concide that the Jaws will hurt Wraiths, I just think that the will still get to you with enought attacks to rend down alot of bikes. May be wrong. How are you doing against Serpants? Also how do you play the Grav Guns vs vehicles, do they get over saves vs Grav.? I think you do but its not super clear.

    I agree that, like the last book, I think the marine codex has the legs to last a long time due to it’s versatility, though in order to get the most our of the book I think you want a DIY chapter so you can use a variaty of chapters, IC’s etc. Which frustrates me since if you have a nicely painted Salamanders army for example, you can never use IF chapter tactics without getting more models… ( definatly planned GW)

  8. fleetofclaw September 16, 2013 8:36 am #

    Am I crazy or do grav-guns on bikes seem like the hard counter for Riptide spam? Granted that isn’t solving the Helldrake problem (cozy lil’ paper / rock / scissor relationship), but it sure seems like the lists that stomped through NOVA are now going to have to figure out how to deal with super fast units tearing their riptides up on 2’s and ignoring their armor.

    • Reecius
      Reecius September 16, 2013 9:24 am #

      I’m not sold on Grav guns at all, honestly. So far for me they have been OK, and often times I think the ol’ Plasma Gun is the better choice.

      • The voice September 16, 2013 9:33 am #

        it may be the meta choice to take i think. the warrington gt over here was the other weekend. the top 10 was 9 taudar armys with 21 rip/knights and a screamer star. plasma wont do enough vs those kind of numbers of 2+/3+ saves and high toughness.

        if your gaming isnt showing that heavy slant then gravs may not be for you. i know vs guard and cron av13 spam they did very little

        • The voice September 16, 2013 9:34 am #

          also though its the concussive rule that (me personally) im taking them for. Hence the combo with jaws. Cant do that with plasma 😛

          • Reecius
            Reecius September 16, 2013 9:48 am
            #

            Very good point! That in an of itself is a good reason to take the combo….while you still can =( I will miss Wolves when they get redone because you can bet your bottom dollar Jaws and the Rune Staff will be going bye-bye.

        • Reecius
          Reecius September 16, 2013 9:47 am #

          Holy shit, are you serious? Top 9 out of 10 was Taudar? That makes me a little sick to my stomach…

          • The voice September 16, 2013 9:59 am
            #

            yep. though i think one army may have been eldar/de and another eldar/sw….but you get the point. mc’s and serpents everywhere!!. the winner was pure illyaden (spelling?) 3 knights, serpents, skyshiled, farseer

          • The voice September 16, 2013 10:04 am
            #

            and yea im already working on a list on the assumption that wolfs get those particular teeth pulled…and it might end up being a farsight contingent :/

          • jy2
            jy2 September 16, 2013 1:05 pm
            #

            This was the top 15 at Warrington, UK:

            1 Eldar
            2 Eldar
            3 Tau
            4 Eldar / DE
            5 Eldar / SW
            6 Eldar
            7 Screamerstar Daemons
            8 Necrons / Tau
            9 Tau / Eldar
            10 Eldar / Tau
            11 Eldar
            12 Eldar
            13 Eldar / Tau
            14 Tau / Eldar
            15 Tau

            Scary, isn’t it? Whereas Tau did the best in US recently (i.e. Nova), in the UK, it seems to be Eldar.

          • Reecius
            Reecius September 16, 2013 1:47 pm
            #

            I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

      • WarlordEXE September 17, 2013 6:36 am #

        This, though based on theoretical rather then practical. I just think grav weapons are the shinny new thing that looks awsome till you’ve actually used it several times and it becomes kinda meh. Sort of like typhus zombie lists. They seemed like such an awsome idea at first, but after lots of games it became apparent that their slowness just doesn’t justify having all those wounds to chew through.

        On a side note, why is everyone hung up on white scars biker armies. Ya they’re cool and all, and probably not bad, but what about iron hand biker armies with a feel no pain (6+)? I believe Goatboy just posted a article on BoLs not too long ago hitting on this same subject.

  9. General Harald (WB) September 16, 2013 9:04 am #

    Alpha strike, Alpha Strike Alpha Strike

  10. dr.insanotron September 16, 2013 11:28 am #

    I think your way off base. Marine have the ability to build one of the best TAC armies out there. IMHO

    • Jason
      Raw Dogger September 16, 2013 3:23 pm #

      We shall see, Dr. I hope you are right and have certainly found some units and combos that I like from the new ‘dex. I’m just very skeptical that it will be enough to counter the current power houses.

      • dr.insanotron September 16, 2013 4:05 pm #

        I think what a lot of people are seeing is that the don’t have that one unit that is broken like the Wave Serpent or Riptide. But everything in the book is worth its points and is useful.

        I think one of the things that Marines are good at is there flexibility.

  11. Phaseadept September 16, 2013 4:08 pm #

    With the increase in bike usage you’ll see a drift to more Eldar Dark Reapers.

    • dr.insanotron September 16, 2013 4:22 pm #

      That’s ok Dark Reapers are pretty easy to take out compared to other Heavy’s

      • Phaseadept September 16, 2013 4:29 pm #

        Easier to take out, sure, but they rip bikes apart, and the focus on the reapers takes attention from other parts of the Eldar force.

  12. Fulcrum September 17, 2013 4:57 am #

    Bike w/grav does well against riptides. Not convinced it will work against WS. The problem is the counter is far too obvious & readily available to every army (except Imperial meq). Meaning you will probably never see this codex get to the top tables because running into 1 daemon, IG, DE, Orks, or nid army is the hard counter to grav. Throw in pulse bombs as well. Now if they had allowed preds, dreds, devs, termis, land speeders, or LR get grav cannons. Or if they allowed sargs to take auspex, or anyone other than cents to take omniscopes & gravamps. Or tacs & asm to get hvy flamers. It might be a different story. You get my point.

    The other thing people aren’t seeing when it comes to how the meta will be effected is this: one of the best counters to MEQ grav spam is MEQ grav spam. Every recently seems to be custom made to easily kill large numbers of MEQ & this 1 is no exception. Tau, Eldar, Daemons, CSM, even DA(with rad + flag & plasma everywhere), and now vanilla flavor too!

    • Fulcrum September 17, 2013 5:01 am #

      Should be “every codex recently”

      /shakes fist at autocorrect gods

  13. Fulcrum September 17, 2013 4:58 am #

    Add CSM with cultists & turkeys to my hard counter list, spawn would be great too.

  14. Capt M September 17, 2013 9:44 am #

    “The new codex didn’t even remotely fix the issues the Marines are having on the tabletop in the 6th edition. Mainly the obsolescence of the 3+ armor save and the complete erosion of cover”

    What did you expect, every marine to get an inv save?

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