40K State of the Game: Chaos

chaos symbol

 

I was talking to a friend the other day and he asked me if we had broken the Chaos codex, to which I replied: nope! And not much desire to, either! When I asked him if his group had managed to crack it yet, he said nope, not much desire on their end to do so, either!

I thought that was pretty interesting as it tells the tale well, and a lot of the folks I have discussed this with are in the same place. I still stand behind my statement that the Chaos codex is a good book. It is a fun read, great art, the codex has a great deal of internal balance, you can build a lot of themed and competitive lists, and you can take it to a tournament and expect to do well.

Mr. Grabby Pants has a new home!

Mr. Grabby Pants has a new home!

My issue with it, and this has been echoed by a lot of folks, is that I just don’t have any desire to play the army. I have already sold my World Eaters and I have someone interested in buying my Night Lords, too. I would rather see someone who really wants to play the armies have them than for them to gather dust on my shelf.

I thought that that was interesting, though. Why is it that I, and a lot of other folks, just aren’t that motivated to play Chaos right now? Normally when a new book comes out, we dive into it with enthusiasm and look for cool themed lists, the most powerful combos and lists we can come up with, etc. With Chaos, we really have not had that drive to do so.

So why is that? Why is it that a book that is well crafted, with a cool back-story that really grabs your imagination, not all that fun to play for some of us?

The issue for me is that I can never make a list that I feel is done. I want to include a lot of different units as I love the Chaos models, but I just can not seem to make it all work in a way that I like. For example, I want to use Raptors for my Night Lords as I think they can be great when used right, and they fit the background. However, if you want to invest any points into the unit to make them hard hitting, you really, really quickly see that you need to give them a Lord to make them Fearless or that large points investment becomes a huge liability as one bad leadership check can see them running away or run down in combat. When you add in that Lord, you start feeding more points into the unit and it isn’t long before you may as well build it into a full on Deathstar….then you realize Chaos units don’t make good Deathstars compared to similar units! Doh! As with the Raptors I used as an example above, they get pricey, and can pack a punch, but then they run into a unit of Harlequins or similar and they get mulched just like a unit of normal Marines at a much higher price point. You end up with a very expensive unit that needs to be dominating but isn’t.

My Havocs are an easy, cool conversion using Heavy Bolters and the barrel of an IG Auto-Cannon. They end up looking a lot like the FW conversion packs at a fraction of the cost.

My Havocs are an easy, cool conversion using Heavy Bolters and the barrel of an IG Auto-Cannon. They end up looking a lot like the FW conversion packs at a fraction of the cost.

That need to babysit units to make them reliable really irks me. Chaos units get super expensive, super fast. As a competitively minded player, I am always thinking about risk vs. reward when building units. The more points I drop into a unit, the more reliable they need to be to justify the investment. Otherwise, you end up with one bad toss of the dice away from losing a close game.

The issue is further exacerbated by the fact that you have a lot of these types of units that require babysitting: Terminators, Raptors, Bikers, Regular CSMs, etc. if you want them to be geared up for kicking ass. Otherwise you have to run them cheap to minimize the risk they pose. MSU Chaos works, without a doubt, but it still falls short of loyalist MSU lists, and I just flat out don’t particularly enjoy playing MSU lists as each unit becomes very one dimensional in most cases, and I am drawn to multi-functional units for their increased durability and flexibility.

With only two slots for HQ, that sucks up your options, fast. I do not feel that the Icon of Vengeance is a  safe investment as sniping is such a commonly used tactic. Every Character has precision strike to take out that Icon in shooting or HtH, and barrage snipping is commonplace, and also very, very reliable. When you mix in psychic powers like presence  you can pretty much count on losing that Icon quickly, and there goes a large points investment. A good player will make it a priority to attack the unit’s weakness and cripple them. This may be a good case for the humble Rhino if there ever was one. I still feel that the Rhino is not worth the points and risk of giving up First Blood, but hey, we’re trying to polish a turd, here. Gotta work with what you have!

night lords oblits

My Oblits are 2 Marines on a single base, one with Heavy Weapon and the other with special weapon and power fist.

What this means is that we are seeing lots of lists that are really similar to one another which is a shame as Chaos should be a dex with a ton of variety. Double Dragon is almost a given, and then a unit or two of Havocs, Oblits, and then troops, which most commonly are Plaguemarines, Zombies and Noise Marines. With the cost of Chaos units, this can end up being your entire army and you find yourself woefully outgunned against most other armies. You often have to min/max certain units (troops, frequently) to free up enough space to pack in the punch you need to hang with the other books.

I do love the HQ slots, though. Every choice is good. I mean that too, I have seen each unit played effectively, from the special characters to the generic ones. Lords are extremely flexible, the Sorcerers are great fun, the Daemon Princes can be made into brutal combatants (if a bit pricey) and the Special Characters all have a lot of utility. Even the Warpsmith and Dark Apostle can be really powerful, cost effective choices. Having any of these HQ choices turn into a Spawn and being forced to challenge is certainly annoying, but I can live with that for the punch these guys often pack.

This version of Chaos packs more variety than we had with last edition by a long shot, but I keep coming to the same issue: I can not make a list that feels complete. Not that they are bad, just not complete. I always feel like the list has a major lacking in one of the categories I always think about when building a list. I also like playing armies that are as unique as I can get them, but with the Chaos book it is really hard to do without building massive weaknesses into a list.

So what are my thoughts on the book, now that we have had some time to digest it and run it through its paces? I think it is a good book, great for modeling and painting, sufficient for competitive play but just lacking in a certain excitement that I get when building lists out of other books. What are your thoughts, now that we have been able to play it for a while?

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About Reecius

The fearless leader of the intrepid group of gamers gone retailers at Frontline Gaming!

39 Responses to “40K State of the Game: Chaos”

  1. Rich with GSI December 12, 2012 8:50 am #

    My problem with the book is nothing stands out. It’s so balanced that there is no WOW-factor. Had they allowed 3 HQ slots, made it make sense to take standard CSMs instead of cultists, and/or given us some slightly unbalanced new toys, I think CSM would not have such a feeling attached to them.

    I love my CSM army but I don’t really love playing it so much. It’s just so, “Meh” on the table compared to other armies. You almost HAVE to bring allies to make it interesting.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 12, 2012 1:50 pm #

      I totally agree, 3 HQ slots would have solved so many issues!

  2. mercutioh December 12, 2012 9:04 am #

    For once Reece I have to disagree. Chaos will not be competitive in any meaningful way because there is no single unit in the book that I would not rather have the loyalist counterpart to. Chaos has all these great abilities but honestly. Even Abbadon goes down to a loyalist captain with a termi armor and a stormshield. Throw in the need to baby sit everything, due to the vast superiprity of ATSKNF, and the massive draw back of self sniping challenges. We’re stuck with another for fun only book. Be thankful you are in the position you are in where you can swap out armies those of us stuck with one or two armies are just left wondering what they did to Mat Ward to make him hate us so.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 12, 2012 1:51 pm #

      Yeah, that is one of my biggest problems, too. The loyalist versions of anything in there is typically better and cheaper. I just find playing my TAC MArines for example, to be more fun.

  3. D-ManA December 12, 2012 9:36 am #

    I’m having good success with the new Chaos codex. Out of approximatley 12 games I have lost only one. I have only used the same lists for maybe three games at the most. Most of our games are at the 2k level and I have been mached up against marines (Vulcan and others), space wolves, grey knights, eldar, necrons, guard and nids. I like how you can switch up your list from a previous one and still be successful just means you play a little different.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 12, 2012 1:52 pm #

      Good for you! I am happy to hear you are dong well with it.

      The guys and lists I play against a lot here just trounce most Chaos builds. The only thing we’ve found that works consistently is Nurgle.

  4. SCP Yeeman December 12, 2012 9:59 am #

    I have to agree with most things said. The book i think fails at the troops section. They are are pretty much awful. Cultists are good chaff and cheap enough to spam for some easy troop choices, but they dont do anything. Regular CSM are decent but get expensive fast.

    The big thing the book has going for it is themed and fluffy lists. I think this can easily be done and it works. It works that most of the options make sense, even though almost all of them under perform on the tabletop.

    Right now, I am building back up my CSM. I am running double Warpsmiths, double Hellbrutes, double Maulerfiends, some 20 man Cultists, 2 large CSM squads, a Dragon, and a couple Biker squads.

    That list is fast and hits hard Turn 2. A lot of in your face targets. It has had mixed results, but it is fun to play.

    I do not forsee them ever being top tier. I think they are for fun, for fluff, and for allies.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 12, 2012 1:54 pm #

      If you are enjoying the list then really, that is what matters. I just have too many armies to focus on one that doesn’t grab me.

      I was thinking about a list like yours, too. I think that would be a lot of fun if, like you said, maybe not the most competitive.

  5. sumo55 December 12, 2012 10:15 am #

    I’ve felt very underwhelmed by the codex. The thing that irks me the most is that there seems to be little to no synergy between units. For instance, I love the idea of Warp Talons. However, there is nothing you can do (okay, one artifact *maybe*) that can help you safely deep strike your Warp Talons close enough to take advantage of their blind ability. Also, CSMs have no additional synergy with Chaos Daemons? I was hoping GW would do something neat and groundbreaking (and fluffy) with the new ally mechanic, yet they let the opportunity slip past.

    Space Marines also have the ability to represent different chapters by taking different special characters. CSM can have cult marines as troop choices, but otherwise Night Lords are identical to Word Bearers or Alpha Legion etc. I feel that there is something wrong when the variety of Chaos is less than the variety of the Emperor’s Faithful.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 12, 2012 1:56 pm #

      I agree with you on every point. I wish they would have had SC’s that unlocked legion abilities! ANd yeah, Warp Talons are just so bad, why no grenades? Yikes.

  6. Joel December 12, 2012 12:08 pm #

    Unlockable troop selections would be fluffy and sells more models. What sold assault marines before BA? Nothing. If you could simply unlock any infantry selection with the appropriate Lord that would be amazing.

    Also why is the sorcerer only WS 5, BS 4. Phil Kelly you F-ing know he is going to have to make witchfire attacks. Why make him WORSE than a SM Librarian at shooting? Why? Makes no sense!

    Warpsmith should make ‘Fiends Elites and HS. Also should come sta=ock with an Inv Save. Why doesnt he have an an INV save? He is an HQ!!

    Kharn cant beat Draigo. Fail.

    Abaddon cant make Terminators Troops. You have entire Loyalist builds based on this tactic.

    Fabius Bile should unlock Possessed as Troops. Its fluffy if yo uthink of them as failed experiments.

    These arent balance issues. These are limitations.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 12, 2012 1:57 pm #

      I agree. I want to see more options, more chaos! This book shoe horns you too much.

  7. Big Jim December 12, 2012 12:11 pm #

    I generally agree, it’s an ok book. I feel that while the codex is ok, it is a huge missed opportunity by PK and GW. The only unit that really stands out in the codex are the Bike squads.

    The biggest problem IMHO is the following:

    There is no free imbalanced army wide rule like ATSKNF. Hell Veterans of the Long War could and should have been free, and then it would at least have appeared that GW was throwing Chaos Marine players a bone. Now I am not complaining that CSM don’t have ATSKNF, I don’t think they should, but think about it, most of them live in warp anomalies and see hellish nightmares every day. So they should not easily brake from losing combat, they certainly should not be swept away by losing an assault. They could have easily made a rule that just stopped CSM units from being swept when falling back from an assault.

    The proceeding was from a post I made on my own blog. Feel free to check it out: http://galaxyinflames.blogspot.com/2012/10/thoughts-on-codex-chaos-space-marines.html

    I am in a lucky position as I spend most of my gaming time playing narrative games with my friends and get to use the Fan-dex I created for my CSM’s. In my Fan-dex all CSM are stubborn which helps tons.

    Cheers,
    Jim

    • Vidar December 12, 2012 1:23 pm #

      What is all this crazy mention on your Blog about a fortification supplement and more CSM releases next year. I havent heard anything about this. Tell me more.

      • Big Jim December 12, 2012 1:47 pm #

        That was not me, it was a comment made by someone else. I know nothing of more releases or a new supplement coming from GW.

        Sorry I cannot shed any light on the comment.

  8. Moros December 12, 2012 12:48 pm #

    Agreed, they really dropped the ball. It doesn’t feel complete for a 6th edition codex. It really just feels like what the previous codex SHOULD have been during 5th edition.

    For God’s sake they didn’t even use many of the USRs that are in 6th edition that are CLEARLY made for Chaos.

    Rampage – why in God’s name would helbrutes and maulerfiends and to a lesser extent mutilators NOT have this rule? its made for them!

    Brotherhood of Sorcerers is in the f’ing rulebook but didn’t make it into the CSM codex? What? Who elses army would that rule possibly be for?

    Conjuration and Maelstrom psyker powers??? Why? why not allow us to take advantage of this new 6th edition rule? oh I know, cause some other army makes more sense for CONJURING up allies than CSMs and daemons… really… Maelstrom, a psy power that kills friends and foes a like… who other than Chaos would really use something like this? Oh i know… probably dark angels who will be summoning daemons and nuking the board…..

    There are other that I don’t feel like going into, but you get the point… it’s not a 6th edition codex, not by a long shot… its a 5th edition… that is how they dropped the ball. I am very angry that I have to wait 8+ years to get a 6th edition codex that will be dated for the then 7th edition of the game……

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 12, 2012 1:58 pm #

      I agree that they could have done so much more with this. After all the build up form the awesome BL books and such, it just feels like it fell flat.

    • Chris December 16, 2012 6:25 am #

      “Agreed, they really dropped the ball. It doesn’t feel complete for a 6th edition codex. It really just feels like what the previous codex SHOULD have been during 5th edition.”

      That’s the crux of it right there. I can’t remember where I saw it, but someone had cornered Kelly before the new ‘dex came out and his response was that this was the ‘dex Gav wanted to write but wasn’t allowed to. So in effect, your statement is completely true and since the release of the ‘dex I can certainly see Gav ‘Dex Ver. 2 all over it. Is it better? Mostly. I’m playing Chaos again so it worked somewhat, for how long? That remains to be seen.

  9. mercutioh December 12, 2012 3:14 pm #

    What gets me is its not that most unots are even bad. Its that other armies just have something that does everything better. Chaos should have been given a niche. Even a 1 trick pony like nds is better than a no trick pony. Theres not a single aspect of the game where chaos is in the top 3.
    Assault? Grey knights space wolves and daemons do it better
    Shooting? Space wolves Tau and grey knights do it better
    Flyers? Blood angels necrons and marines
    Mobility? DE eldar and blood angels(or orks)
    Troops? GK orks and marines
    The list goes on and on. There is mot a single phase of the game that chaos is even top 3 let alone the best

  10. Defeatmyarmy December 12, 2012 8:18 pm #

    I’m 70% convinced csm can win in the big leagues alone. I’m 100% convinced nurgle can win tournaments combined with daemons. Stick epidemics in a nurgling blob, take 2 squads murgle auto cannon havocs one squad obits of nurgle. Stick a fearless leader with burgle raptors mob, and finish it up with a min squad of plaguebearers. All leftover points go to min melta plague marines with basic rhinos and a min squad of nurgle manning an aegis….noxious touch raptors would be my favorite part of the army.

    *drool*

    • Murphus December 12, 2012 8:39 pm #

      I like the Epi Combo, but the rule for the tally states that daemons gain noxious touch.

      • Defeatmyarmy December 13, 2012 8:04 am #

        The tally of pestilence is for all followers of nurgle, not just nurgle daemons.

      • Reecius
        Reecius December 13, 2012 1:22 pm #

        That combo is savage, but it won’t be around for long. When the new Daemon book comes out, we will see the end of that.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 13, 2012 1:12 pm #

      Chaos can and will win, no doubt, it just won’t be me doing it! Haha, I am not into the way the army plays much.

      • mercutioh December 13, 2012 11:08 pm #

        Thats just it for me. I don’t see a stylistic way for the army to play. Theres no defining them to Chaos other than. We cost too much, and do bad things to ourselves raaaaargh! I just dont see how this is the”great enemy”

        • Reecius
          Reecius December 17, 2012 12:48 pm #

          I think a lot of folks are still going to be using the Space Pup codex to make their army concepts work!

  11. winterman December 12, 2012 8:48 pm #

    Reecius I swear BoLS must pay you by the comments you generate 🙂 Your mention of failing to break the CSM codex in the first sentence just gets the anti-tournament crowd in a tizzy. How quickly they forget you championing much maligned and TAC style armies in 5ed.

    Anyways, I think the problems with CSM has more to do with the horrible morale rules then the codex itself. Play a game like Dust where morale goes stepwise from normal to suppressed to broken in a much more reasonable manner and you see rather starkly how bad 40k morale is. This codex just makes it that much more clear an issue. If they instituted a middle ground between fine and broken/swept the game would be better for it and elite units wouldn’t require fearless or ATSKNF to function.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 13, 2012 1:14 pm #

      I would be lying if I said I didn’t bait them a bit! Hahaha, but they take it every time =) I still play TAC armies, they are more fun, but yeah, memories are short on the interwebs.

      I agree with you 100% about morale. It is so crippling in 40K. For armies with units that are cheap and numerous, it isn’t a big deal, but for CSM whose units are super expensive, it is just too big of a risk to take.

  12. Gargh December 12, 2012 9:20 pm #

    Hey Reece, sorry to put something completely off-topic here but I can’t seem to comment on BoLS… in the comments there you mentioned footdar being ‘borderline cheese’ in 6th. Would you mind saying how? Is it just the Fortuned Harlies + Deldar HQ combination, or is there something else I’m missing? It’d be cool to have a good Space Elf army, but I’ve never been a Deldar fan…

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 13, 2012 1:17 pm #

      Yeah for sure.

      Eldar now don’t need Deldar to pull out combos that boderline break the game. You can use Fortune to get a reroll 2+ just out of the Eldar book, which makes them incredibly hard to kill but more importantly, incredibly unfun to play against.

      Also, with the hard hitting, high firepower output, top-notch assault, premiere psyker defense, and crazy force multiplying psychic powers, they are very, very good.

      I may have overstated when I say borderline cheese, but they are super good now. Add in DE and they become even better. Venoms, Warriors, Razorwings, etc. fill gaps that the Eldr list alone has. It is a very potent combo.

      • Gargh December 13, 2012 9:04 pm #

        Cool, thanks. I’ll have to look into using Phoenix Lords etc. I can definitely see the evil appeal in adding in a Shadow Field to make that 2+ invulnerable, of course…

        • Reecius
          Reecius December 17, 2012 12:48 pm #

          No problem, happy to help!

  13. Christoph December 12, 2012 11:27 pm #

    I completely agree, while i do enjoy making lists with the book & playing them, it is much more bland then what Chaos should be. I do think they hit the nail on the dot again with Nurgle (sigh), Typhus’ zombie shenanigans are awesome, if only they had new special characters for all the legions along with equally awesome rules for cultists as Tyhpus’ zombie shenanigans .. blood crazed cultists for Khorne, better guns or armour for Iron Warriors, contingent of rapists for Slaanesh, Spireguard for Tzeentch… if only 🙁
    It’s the goddamn 5th edition codex all over again with a few new units. Inb4codexcreep.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 13, 2012 1:19 pm #

      Dude, you said it. I agree 100%. Nurgle is still the best cult, and the rest of it is a slight overhaul from 5th. I just felt like they could have done so much more with it, like Legion rules (as you wre pointing out). At least SC’s to unlock the book as with Space Marines.

  14. Benji December 13, 2012 6:11 am #

    IMO their mistake was they stuck with nurgle/tzeentch/khorne/slaanesh. That’s what Chaos Demons codex should be for. Instead they should have tried to put more of a focus on the legions, especially the original heresy era ones. In fact I feel they should have gone with special characters like Lucius and Kharne changing how veterans of the old war works. Sort of like how Shriek and Vulcan mess with chapter tactics the make at least themed lists work better.

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 13, 2012 1:57 pm #

      Totally agree. They should have made the book more malleable, more chaotic!

  15. Red Corsair December 15, 2012 10:23 am #

    For me I want there to be more variety in the chaos book, but then I have to be realistic and take a step back. I mean after a while it all sounds ;like we want them to play like every other army, which is understandable when they lump 9 original legions plus any fallowing into one book. That book will always fall short unless its 600 pages long ha ha. (maybe only 200 but you get me right?)

    My solution is shop around for other books. Sure they won’t fit 100% but if you place limits on your self then you can make legion specific armies from other codexes. For example, love khorne but hate over paying for shitty chain axes? Pick up your Space Wolf codex, you gain ATSKNF which is better then fearless anyway, have access to those 4 chaos lords you have all been drooling for. Oh and notice how T-wolf cav are literally the same as juggers now for the most part (oops my bad they are better lol) well now you can have 4 screaming lords and 3 units of charging World eaters on juggers. Remember when Khorne was all about martial pride and not insane idiotic combat solely? Oh look now I have long fangs who split fire which requires massive training and discipline. Basically it comes down to the player to say, hmmm Rune priest? Nah that breaks my theme.

    Like 1000 sons? Grey knights fill that void swimmingly… The list goes on for days really, heck shrike makes a decent enough night haunter and fits those terror tactic boys and Khans outflank suits Alpha legion.

    I guess what I am trying to say is that there is really only so much they can pack into one codex before that book renders all other MEQ books obsolete.

    This is all my humble opinion but I have been playing for 17 years now and there is nothing wrong with using the book that makes the most sense. Heck it’s much less stressful and you will be happier longer if you make the game work for you rather then waiting for GW!

    • Reecius
      Reecius December 17, 2012 12:40 pm #

      That is a really good point, and one that a lot a lot of folks will probably still use. It really upsets some folks when you do a counts as army, but hey, if it allows you to get the rules and aesthetic you are shooting for, then it doesn’t bother me at all.

  16. Ithani January 9, 2013 5:48 am #

    I read something a while ago and i cant quote it or even remember where it was from but someone working around the chaos dex made a comment about making csm a list/army that was unlike codex space marines- aka not just spikey looking c:sm.

    Like you guys ive had a little while now tinkering and playing with the book and what i really wanted was for the army to feel as different to C:SM as the ork book or the IG books is. And thats just not teh case.

    I keep catching myself thinking gosh id LOVE to combat squad here or why dont my warp talons have some similar equivalent of descent of angles. Looking at the dex i think this is a big trap i fall into all the time-that is seeing the sm equivalent and thinking theirs is a little better. And io think its a trap that i think caught the designers when they were making the dex.

    An example of good chaos codex!
    Even without the tallyman, Nurgle zombie lists, i would say, are probably the biggest success of the dex- as a competitive, fun and themed list. AND it feels complete- all the units are filling different roles that have good synergy together, there is no single overpowered unit (imo :P) and that makes for good fun wargaming. But most of all for me, it doesnt FEEL like space marines at all. This is codex writing WIN! (and perhaps strats a little 1 trick pony and 1 directional but… the turd and the polish)

    An example of bad chaos codex codex:
    Space marines have know no fear, give cult troops fearless… Um.. yeh… How about instead (go with me here) of that u do something DIFFERENT what if… all individual cult troops.. were sort of independent? Some cowards would fall back and some would stay heroically (of crazily)? Isnt that more chaosie? And it would kind of have really interesting outcomes- semi detaching and making a new unit? What if instead of giving the big expensive models the possibility to get boons you made the boons more interesting and… gave them to models who stayed in the combat? Blessing the brave/crazy/weird/awesome? sounds chaosie to me. Ok im def not a game designer- imagine the cool s#!* these guys came up with that got scrapped coz it was to hard to balance…

    The biggest issue for me personally is the maneuverability in the codex. Its such a fundamental part of an army. You move to respond, you move to threaten. If your whole plan is set in stone in your deployment your gonna play for 2 hours without making a decision and youll just want it to end after t3 (o man i hope u dont get to t7).

    In 6e csm we have huge footslogging lists and …?

    Deepstriking! its so unreliable. I hate that im constantly forced to do it, i scatter, mishap and lose 225 points, I land perfectly get 1 round of shooting off and get blown off the table, i distracted some big force for 1 or 2 turns, i land and wipe out backfield and claim an objective and same the game! so many things can happen- so many strategical possibilities. and… Its actually awesome (and more forgiving mishaps in 6e)?!! Gives maneuverability, gives the ability to respond, the ability to keep the game complex and to develop through out the 7 turns. But wait csm dex really the only units that can do it are- raptors, talons (sigh), termies and oblits. Without a lord i think you really are only distracting and wont expect to get anything done- you just dont have the wounds to last. So at best 2 dsing strong units (with lords) and maybe 2 weaker ones (without?)? if you do that your so weak (prolly) elsewhere. If this is your option for maneuverability you REALLY have to commit to it. So this brings me to agree with alot of you about a 3rd or even 4th HQ slot… or even just… how about having more champs in each squad like the 5e chaos termies? thatd b pretty chaosie… How about being able to mix up a squad of oblits, raptors and talons (like yeh.. in the same squad! EVEN WITH DIFFERENT GOD MARKS?!! LIKE REAL UNDIVIDED!! THAT WOULD BE SUPERCAPS!)?

    Sorry guys its getting a little late and more than a little ranty.

    Rhinos (and even LRs) are not doing well in this edition- their fragile and liable to give up first blood. I still dont mind giving up the VP and having 4 or 5 rhinos to get really good map position but it doesnt compare to the drop pod or the open topped truck. Let me be clear- i dont want drop pods, i dont want storm ravens, i dont want a razorback or to be honest a rhino (even with last eds rules. I want the WarpSmith to smith me a warp and let me have 6″radius deployment zone anywhere on the table 18″ away from opponents models, I want a possible army wide infiltrate that come in with some weird debuff like gone to ground for the 1st turn. I want some funky deployment of maneuverable option (like they tried to do for demons)

    I want my dark apostle to have a chance to convert the good guys or make my cultists to explode causing d3 s5 ap5 hits. I want my 1k sons shots to silence psykers for a turn! Most of all i want. Wingie guy aint i. What i really want is for the army to unlock other modes of maneuvering not just the footslog without simply borrowing from c:sm.

    I applaud th Oblit, the maulerfiend, the defiler, the helturky, Chaos boons, champion of chaos rule, chaos lords (the badasses they are)- and all the better if you can throw in rules that are appropriate and make them not just a fancy new firing platform. There are some models that are NEW to csm but they feel like tacked on as ideas- extras to c:sm- theres not so much synergy between them:

    You want a chaos lord on a jugger with the axe GO FOR IT! (but if you want plague marines youd better take a lord of nurgle in your other slot because you cant take a dp or a sorc anymore…) Mono god is over for a time.

    Might this have something to do with why chaos armies feel “unfinished” there almost EXACTLY like the c:sm counterpart with some awkward thangs thrown in. Where the book does try to make interesting combinations it gets caught up in itself and you end up having drop your demon prince to open a cult troop (for example). This reads a little like a fan dex but none of these ideas are serious at all there just examples of how i think the playstyle of chaos could have been more dynamic.

    Sorry for ranting, typos and general notmakingsence-ishness.

    Ith

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