Forgeworld at Comikaze

Get yo resin on!

Reecius here to discuss how allowing Forgeworld in our first GT (Comikaze) went over and was received.

First of all, what’s Comikaze? It’s a Pop Culture/Comic Convention at the LA convention center. Over 40,000 people each day! If you’ve ever been to Comicon, you know what to expect. The only difference is that we were playing a 40K tournament in that awesomness! It was very cool and we hope to see more folks there next year.

One of the other things that made Comiakze different was that we allowed all Forgeworld units in that were neither Super Heavies or Gargantuan Creatures. Players had to have the most recent version of the rules and any pertinent FAQ’s for the units they were using and show them to their opponent before the game. They also had to have the actual model or a very close conversion.

Forgeworld in tournaments is a big sticking point for some reason for a number of reasons. People feel that it is too expensive, the rules aren’t common enough, or that certain units are imbalanced. On the flip side, the models are beautiful, 90% of them are mild to under-powered and they give a really nice boost to a lot of weaker armies and they bring a LOT of AA options to the table.

Comikaze was by no means the first event to allow Forgeworld in tournaments. There have been MANY GT level events preceding it that have allowed FW and they have had no issues with it. Comikaze went very smoothly and we asked nearly all of the attendees how they felt about having FW in the event and of those that even noticed FW was being used, the vast majority said they thought it was fun, added variety or didn’t really care that much as they didn’t encounter it.

One of the nice things about allowing FW was that we had 4 Tau players and ALL of them were using Forgeworld as it really gives them a nice boost with Tetras, Hazard Suits, Shas’O R’Alai, the Baracuda, etc. Not a single person complained about them and in fact, said that it was great to see so many Tau players in attendance. We also had a Marine Player with a Hyperios Air Defense Battery, and an Imperial Guard/Ork player with 2 Hades Breaching Drills (which I personally think are pretty under-priced, but they are very hit or miss). Again, no one said anything about these. Why? Because they didn’t win!

The very few folks who did say anything against FW in tournaments sited the fact that the winner (Congratz Vince!) had 2 Saber Platform teams of twin las cannons.

For those of you who don’t know, these are immobile artillery pieces with a single crew (but can take 2 more per gun) that has a twin Las Cannon with both Interceptor and Skyfire. They are taken as a 3 gun Heavy Weapon Squad as a sub-squad of an IG Infantry Platoon (in place of say, a triple Auto Cannon squad). If they break and run away, the guns are lost. They come in at 150pts.

They are pretty damn good, probably too cheap for what you get. When you combo this out with an Aegis line they are really hard to kill, and really good against pretty much everything baring hordes. Further, you can combo this with a Commissar Lord to increase their leadership and a CCS for get back in the fight after going to ground (for a 2+ behind the Aegis) and orders to recover from going to ground or to increase their kill power, and you have a nasty unit.

The thing is though, that everyone who actually played against Vince thought they were fine and had no issues. The only people that said anything didn’t actually play against them. Now, I am not trying to throw anyone under the bus here, no one was having a fit by any means, I am just addressing issues that were brought up. My point being that because a unit that is perceived to be over-powered (although these things are easily destroyed in assault or with units that can get around the Aegis) does that mean we should ditch Forgeworld? No, of course not. No one said anything about the player with the Hades Drills as he lost 2 of his games. I think those are far more OP, personally.

Furthermore, the gentleman that won, BARELY won. He played a great tournament (and, it was his FIRST GT and he doesn’t read the internets, so there you go!), got good match-ups and luck was with him. It was his weekend to win! The fact that he used some Forgeworld units doesn’t take that away from him, he earned his victory.

He won an extremely close game against a Blood Angels player due to a lucky scatter, and his game in the finals against a Necron Ariforce came down to the last toss of the dice! What’s not to like about that? He didn’t steamroll anyone, his games were close and his opponents had fun. That is a good thing. Considering these Saber platforms are available to anyone who can take IG allies, that is a huge boon in the battle against crazy flying circus armies that can be so dominating.

On the whole, despite a vocal minority of opponents to Forgeworld (and they said they had a really good time at the event and that Forgeworld wasn’t as bad as they had thought it would be) we saw it as TOs as a success. The tournament had a really good diversity of armies, and our attendees told us they had fun and wanted to come back next year. We also had a LOT of first time GT attendees and they all clearly had gotten the bug and were asking when the next event was. That is a win in our eyes! Diversity is a good thing on the table top and if people are having fun, that’s the goal.

Don’t let fear of the unknown dictate your decisions. Open up your gaming horizons and enjoy the wider world of play with the new and fun units that Forgeworld brings to the table!

What say you all?

About Reecius

The fearless leader of the intrepid group of gamers gone retailers at Frontline Gaming!

24 Responses to “Forgeworld at Comikaze”

  1. Greg September 19, 2012 1:16 am #

    I probably played the fluffiest list at Comikaze this year and have no problems with the Forge World. In fact, some of the spam, whether in Cron air or other applications ( 3 monstrous creatures, really?!?!), was a lot more concerning. That being said, balance really seemed to be favored with a definite tilt toward heave 12-24″ shooting. Good times!

    • Reecius
      Reecius September 19, 2012 12:59 pm #

      I agree. i’d MUCH rather see FW than the Cron Air army at every tournament.

  2. nerdcore7863 September 19, 2012 5:38 am #

    On a side note. Reecius are you guys gonna start up the video battlereports again?

    • Reecius
      Reecius September 19, 2012 12:58 pm #

      Yeah, just been crazy busy. We were going to film one today.

  3. SaltyJohn
    Overwatch September 19, 2012 11:25 am #

    Hey Reece, I enjoyed the read. You know we disagree quite a bit about the use of Forge World at tournaments. I did write a very long response to this on capture and control, please check it out I would enjoy hearing your thoughts on what I had to say.

    http://www.captureandcontrol.com/2012/09/the-case-against-allowing-forgeworld-in.html

    • Alex Yuen September 19, 2012 12:43 pm #

      Money should not be part of the reason why FW should or shouldn’t be part of a tournie. simple reason is that even within 40k. the cost of the army varies greatly. if $500 is too much to spent then we should ban people who spent 1k for their army? or an allowance on how much each player can spent on their army?

      IG army at 2k can cost thousands while GK can cost as little as 200 dollars. so even he include the $500 from FW, he did not pay as much as the IG guy.

      Like any sport or hobby, it cost money. no one banning golf stuff because they cost too much or like no Jordon on basketball court because ur buddy can’t buy them.

      • Reecius
        Reecius September 19, 2012 1:06 pm #

        I agree. I never felt the argument for money being a reason to not use FW was not a good one.

        • kalhoun September 19, 2012 4:50 pm #

          I don’t have a problem with TOs including Forge World, as long as like here the players know about it far enough in advance. If a player is not comfortable with it, they can just not go. Just like point limits and other house rules, FAQs and game tweaks.

          That being said, I’d much rather hear “if you don’t like it, have fun doing something else” over “you already don’t have 300 things memorized, so what’s another 150?” So I agree with Overwatch on that. Only because I dislike ye olde slippery slopes, so the ignorance/money justifications don’t stick with me. 😉

          That’s really a marketing/semantics thing.

          If I have the time/inclination I’ll be adding a Lifta Droppa wagon to my scrapyard Orks.

          • Reecius
            Reecius September 19, 2012 5:15 pm
            #

            Fair point. I just think it is a fallacy of “serious” tournament gamers to assume that everyone buys every codex and memorizes them. The vast majority of gamers don’t know what wargear in armies they don’t play do, let alone FW. But, your point about saying like or leave it would be my natural inclination, haha, but that isn’t the best way to have a rational discussion. At least not one that doesn’t end in hurt feelings.

            And yes! Bring the Lifta Droppa to the BAO!

  4. kalhoun September 19, 2012 11:46 am #

    So Artillery.
    Just because I was reading this the other day and want to understand it better.
    You go to ground, you can only snap fire with the crew’s sidearms, not the guns themselves.
    Get Back in the Fight gets you around that?
    if so, good combo.

    I’m reading page 46 as a single shadow weaver (tetra, whatever) would be a unit with essentially four wounds at toughness 7, 2 of which have a 3+ save (gun) and 2 of which are the individual 5+ of the guardians.
    If a warlock is in the unit, he’s also T7 (as long as there’s still one gun alive).
    first sentence in the Shooting at Artillery section.
    So a full unit (and you can put an IC in there as well, they seem to gain the T7 benefit but cannot fire the gun *cough*Eldrad*cough*)
    So a full squad of 3 guns/crew/warlock would be 13 T7 wounds?
    I’m just trying to get the math right.

    On these, where you have one crew member “integrated” into the weapon, riding it, I’d probably take wounds from the front on the gun, and wounds from the back arc on the gunner? re: closest allocation.

    Only bringing this up here because I saw the guy in question, and you’d mentioned it on the podcast.

    -jerO

    • kalhoun September 19, 2012 11:57 am #

      by “tetra” i meant “tarantula” which in turn obviously meant “Saber Platform”

    • Reecius
      Reecius September 19, 2012 1:08 pm #

      You’ve got it. But remember, in HtH, you use the crew’s toughness, so they get owned fast. Assault demolishes these things.

  5. Alex Yuen September 19, 2012 12:28 pm #

    I don’t agree with Reecius. GW deliberately kept FW as separate product line. GW also define FW as an extended part of the 40k game play and not 40k. GW commented on extended game play might not be fair or balance.

    The logical to keep FW out of main 40k is pretty simple one. game designer said that this is an extended part of the game then said this might not be balance. Are FW actually balance that up for debate. GW’s balance and the actual balance might be different but if you going to play their game; well, should follow their rules.

    • Reecius
      Reecius September 19, 2012 1:06 pm #

      GW didn’t choose to keep FW separate, it is a separate company! And GW has said numerous times that if anyone wants to include FW in their games, they can. I know because we have asked them directly. And no tournament out there that I know of plays 40K right out of the book, EVERY tournament changes the rules. You have to, 40K is not a tournament game out of the box. There are literally no rules on how to run a 40K tournament, we have to make them up.

      • Alex Yuen September 19, 2012 2:04 pm #

        no not really. They did a share purchase and not an asset purchase of FW so if they want to marge the company they can. They started out as separate companies but don’t have to stay that way. Al-tho merging does have a cost to it.

        As far as GS using FW in their game like i said before is extended part of 40k but at the same time they also said if u do include FW be mindful about the balance. GW said it might not be balance. An unbalance game can still play and have fun just depend on the gamers that play the game.

        You are right every tournament does changes their rules. why people hate FW in tournie? In their view the tournie became unbalance since GW said so. actually balance or not is different thing. In truth, every tournie format or rules changes the game of 40k just to what degree. If players think they are too balance i will not go. Just that FW is stamp by GW most think is grossly unbalance.

        my example of this is always the wargamercon. is a fun event and i enjoy myself but i knew they change the balance of the game. they unbalance the game by changing missions. The book missions or 5th ed are about balancing between grabbing objectives and KP. Where you can win without killing a single model or just have a single model alive. wargamercon changes every missions to basically a 4th ed tabling mission. since u have 3 goals and they all worth 10pts. And always 1+ goals are about killing something in order for you to get 10+pts. I can win every game by objectives and endup with about 140 pts. i will end up in the middle of the pack and don’t even make it into the 2nd day but i won all my games.

        my reason is simple. i play 40k that made by gw. i don’t want to play a game that include other companies or rules that not made by gw. if gw want to keep them as 2 separate company then is a good reason to only play product from one company.

        • Reecius
          Reecius September 19, 2012 2:43 pm #

          Fair points you make there.

          My counter argument is that 40K isn’t balanced anyway, haha, so including FW really doesn’t change much.

          We are very mindful of the balance and if it appears to us that FW does indeed make things unfun, we will change our stance. However this year, we had a 90% positive reaction to including FW in tournaments. That was the green light to us to include FW in tournament play as supported by the community.

          • Alex Yuen September 19, 2012 2:58 pm
            #

            40k isn’t balanced!!! well, i have to agree to that. FW actually did not unbalance the game just the view on most people thinks 40k is balance and FW is not. is a fantasy land.

          • Reecius
            Reecius September 19, 2012 3:19 pm
            #

            We actually had 9 out of 10 people we polled say that they would like to have FW in tournaments. That is a huge increase from last year where only 50% of the people we asked said they wanted FW. It’s a big shift.

            But yeah, 40K isn’t balanced anyway! haha

          • Alex Yuen September 19, 2012 3:26 pm
            #

            only thing i will said about the 90% is that whoever hate it will not come back. So those who are there already know FW is there and wanted to play games with FW in it. And ofc ause u can’t simple someone was going to come but did not because of FW.

          • Reecius
            Reecius September 19, 2012 5:12 pm
            #

            No, we polled people who have gone to ANY of our events. We asked ALL of our previous attendees and of those who responded, 90% were for it.

          • Alex yuen September 19, 2012 7:27 pm
            #

            So how u poll a guy that nvr go to ur event because of fw? Is like polling on republician who going to vote for mitt base on convension attendant pass and present.

          • Reecius
            Reecius September 19, 2012 7:51 pm
            #

            Haha, well of course not, we polled those who did go to our events, which is a lot of accumulated people.

            If someone won’t go because of FW, that is their decision to make.

          • Alex Yuen September 19, 2012 11:13 pm
            #

            stat is basice on random sampling. since u can never have a random sample of population of 40k tournie players then 90% does not reflex on the pop of tournie players but rather the pop of comikazcon tournie players. Because u simple a popluation that in your event therefore they are more likely accepted FW already. If can simple the whole pop of 40k tournie players u will find that number goes down a lot.

            On Bols, if i simple those comment i think that number is closer to the pop that accept FW or not.

      • Alex Yuen September 19, 2012 2:10 pm #

        I will still go to tournie with FW included tho but that my choice. I am just saying is a good reason to keep FW out because they are from a different company and GW said is unbalance.

        As far as tournament format and rules from GW. They do have one and know as TOS aka POS.

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