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| A needed talk |
So today, I want to talk about something that seems like a hot topic recently. I want to talk about the inclusion of forge world into the main stream elements of the game. They expand the elements available to everyone while allowing people to make more diversified choices instead of the numbers games that we see happen with the “Internet lists”. It also brings into the play several other lists that we wouldn’t see. On top of all of this, it brings flyers and anti air units to everyone. It updates quite a few of the armies that suffer from their age. The potential of certain aspects of anything Forge World is an interesting prospect that I want to talk about. I also want to talk about the fears and things that scare people from my perspective as well as some friendly opinions from others I know.
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| star trek reference |
I ended up playing against forge world for the first time. (or so I thought) I brought my rock, paper list against regular old space marines. It was a good game, but I was surprised with something. I find out that my opponent was bringing Forge World. He warned me about a Mortis Dreadnaught, but since it eats air craft for breakfast, I was actually curious to see what it would do so I didn’t mind. He also decided to bring a Contemptor Dreadnaught. Having never faced either and I was curious more than anything. I didn’t make any objections. I than let them both live most of the game. My anti tank is enough to ensure that by turn 2, 4-6 vehicles are dead almost without exception so the two dreads could have died before they could really do anything of note. what I came to find was that the dreads didn’t do a thing really that something equal to their points in the core set of the game couldn’t do better short of one rare thing with the Mortis (sky firing and interceptor if it holds still) . The Contempter was a joke. Looked amazing, but truly underperformed. If anything, it felt like they were a fun choice, but they couldn’t deal with general things well. If they didn’t find their niche of targets, you didn’t get a good return from them.If they did find their niche target, pray they don’t die (which seems to be happening faster now) before they reach their target. To make it worse, I find out that the Dreads that he was bringing were really expensive. Neither dread made their points back. The closest one was the Contemptor dread killed a warrior squad. This task wasn’t done by some awesome thing. He had two wrist mounted heavy flamers and got close. It wasn’t anything magical. There was a moment of surprise in the game. when I finally did decide to kill them, the 5+ inv saves that the dreads had (which they pay a lot for) slowed their deaths. The same effect could have happened if you set each dread behind a knee high wall.
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| Fear is the mind killer. |
A bunch of people seem scared of Forge World. A bunch of people view it as a pay to win thing because of the price of several forge world elements. One thing that scares people is issue of balance in forge world. Forge world hasn’t been known for their incredible balance. Somethings costs are no where near they should be. While these are rare, they exist. Every time I hear this argument, I think of something in the core of 40k that is just as bad or if not worse. All I hear about is how cheap Vendetta/Valkyries are compared to everything. It is because of things like this that I think this fear is just something to add onto the fire that is the Forge World debate. It doesn’t offer much to either side, but it is still a valid point. The other side of the balance issue is that some units coffer extreme abilities. A Lucius pattern Drop Pod allows dreadnaughts to assault once you drop in. That is really intimidating for a first time. That kills almost any vehicle. After I got over that, I started thinking more. What does the same job for cheaper? 5 wolf guard in a drop pod with combi melta.No forge world and it yields better results. Once something doesn’t surprise you, you really begin to fear it much less. The availibility of the rules hurts people often. People don’t have ready access to the rules. Few people have all the Codices so this isn’t much of an issue. You need the rules to play the model so that often will be the first time people see the actual rules. As long as you go over it with your opponent before you play, this wont be too bad. After all, you don’t want to win a game because someone just doesn’t know. Another fear people have is flyers in general. There is a quote from a movie that I love to use when something like this comes up. “Everyone can be super! and when everyone is super, no one will be”-syndrome. The point is, while marines and family get most of the loving, everyone gets a flyer of some sort or another and some sort of anti air. It truly is a win win for everyone.
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| Additional opinions required |
I feel that while I have some opinion of all things forge world, I don’t have enough experience to truly express a great opinion of the subject. It is this idea that has caused me to ask some of the more experience players I know about the subject. Here is what my friend the fluff bunny said.
I’ve used the Defenders of Vraks list so many times that I often
forget to use the
IG’s orders when running them as actual IG. And
invariably forget till the last minute that my
lascannon teams in the
Vraks list aren’t troops choices & so can’t hold whatever objective
that they’re invariably sitting on/by. Most people generally can’t tell
the difference between the
Vraks & IG lists, so they don’t often
notice that I’m using a
FW army even if I told them beforehand (which I
always do).
The IG Sabers are another
favorite (and the new artillery rules in 6th will make them even
better). One by itself was just amusing to me. Two and they became
effective infantry killers (easy to think of them as: 12, 36″ ranged,
twin-linked bolter shots & now with skyfire!), and I generally get
groans/complaints/dirty looks/flipped off when I mention I have a 3rd
one one yet to assemble to complete the battery.
Then there’s the IG Cyclops (a.k.a.: ’25 points of amusement’ & the
‘Anti-Joel Device’ after it blew up several of his ork bikers). When
spotted ‘hey. what’s that little tank over there? ‘ is often spoken (an
exact quote from Joel) and it becomes a
very high priority target. Generally I have to try & hide it when
deploying, and keep it hidden till the enemy gets close & them rush
out to blow up amidst the enemy before getting shot to pieces.
The Grot Spee (Grot Mega Tank) just suffers from the me rarely playing Orks
because every other army is Space Wolves, and fearless saves were
fucking stupid (and finally
GW figured that out!). In game terms its fairly mediocre, however from
an aesthetic point of view (amusing when you think of it) it is by far
the best looking model in my entire collection! Just love that model!
So I do use them, however barring the mega tank, none really stand out of
the crowd until you look closely at the individual minis.
The next opinion is from a friend of mine who is a hobby person. He paints and builds things incredibly well and he is the guy who usually helps put my vehicles together (or often puts them together completely). He is the person who likes the fluff, but puts aspects of the hobby over game play aspects. This is just the basic idea of the conversation that we had, but you will get the idea.
Bob from lesserofallevils.blogspot.com: The idea of forge world being surprised on me is something I don’t like. There are a few problems with things from forge world. I have people stick to the “Ask permission” in order to use most forge world stuff. If people are willing to let me know what is coming and I can see the rules, I don’t really have a problem. Even in a tournament setting, as long as I know what I am facing, I am usually fine with it. Hell, I may even buy something forge world of my own to bring. Expand my collection with something I can use more then when I just ask my opponent for OK.
So I want to hear from other people. This is a community topic. I feel that forge world is slowly becoming an accepted and needed part of the game. It expands many elements that are often found lacking in many of the armies. While some things are ridiculous, there will be more benefit to allowing forge world than not. You can have fluffier lists, more hobby designed lists. It is an expansion for our already magnificent hobby. Sure people will abuse it, but with the inclusion of forge world, I think we will see that while you can abuse it, the answers for it are often available in forge world itself.
Great article! I’m finding that most of the time people just have not played with anything forgeworld and thus can not make an informed decision one way or the other. There seems to be a lot of speculation going around and not enough play testing to truly see if something is overpowered/underpowered. This notion has finally donned on my LGS and we have since been playing with lots of FW stuff and subsequently loving it! I’ve even ordered a couple Tau things myself.
Awesome! I agree 100%. Most of the detractors base their opinions on speculation, not facts. Once people start playing with it, it’s no big deal.
Bob wanted me to say something.
Like Edwin said I have no problem with using Forge World as long as people have the correct rules for whatever they are using and ask if it is cool to use the rules and models. I am all about casual gaming with the emphasis being on fun rather than competition so 9.99 times out of 10 I would love to see the stuff used. My only concern is if a person was to drop down some Titan or super heavy and act like it is business as usual. I would love to play some of the campaign books they have out like the Badab War or The Siege of Vraks. I will more than likely end up ordering the Horus Heresy books. I view the Forge World products as something players bring out as a special event rather than what you use on a regular basis.
As for me, I don’t think most of the detractors have is based of speculation, but I think it is more based of a select few events that alot of people can relate too. I know a lot of the internet repeats what they see, but the people who originally had the problems had valid problems.
Agreed. I have always loved Fw in games, I think it adds depth to the game and a plethora of other really cool options for armies.
Totally agree with this.
I like to see where people have engaged in playing something, be it Forge World or any other new product for 40K, and then comment on its fun factor or affect on the game. It is so frustrating to read about something new coming out, like a new starter set and the see the first comments that read: “when does my codex get a Hellbrute?”. GW sucks”
In the end, Forgeworld offers additional choices to the game and due to the 40K vs Apocalypse approved stamps should help determine the proper use of models.
Yeah, right when 6th dropped, and everyone was talking about allowing forgeworld as a rule and not the exception in tourneys, I dug out all my old books. It seemed I had them all. There is nothing broken that I can see. I say bring it on.
Also, I like the attitude of, just allow it, if a couple torunaments get ruined by some thing we didn’t see, then we can make an adjustment as a tourney-going group. But not allowing it on the grounds that it MIGHT be wonky is just reactionary and silly.
I’m working on a document that I am going to try and get stickied in the tourney discussion area of dakka. It is a list of every non-superheavy, non-gargantuan forgeworld model, and a link to where rules can be found for them. A good majority have been updated by forgeworld and so have free rules available on their site. The others I will just link the name of the book you need. I’ll try and keep it updated with the most current rules for each model, and then people will know exactly which PDF or book to bring to the tourney if they are going to play with their forgeworld list or unit.
That would be awesome, Shep! And are you coming to Comiakze? We’d love to have you and the crew there!